Never really understood the whole......
- Thread starter ToddT
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littlebighorn
Long Time Member
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From my point of view, it has very little to do with managing elk, and lots to do with managing how many people want to hunt them.
Spike units allow a big number of people the opportunity to at least hunt elk and it still keeps some quality bulls for limited entry hunting and breeding. It is certainly a compromise that allows some quality and quantity hunting. Good or bad, that's my take.
Spike units allow a big number of people the opportunity to at least hunt elk and it still keeps some quality bulls for limited entry hunting and breeding. It is certainly a compromise that allows some quality and quantity hunting. Good or bad, that's my take.
lone_hunter
Active Member
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This is the way I understand this theory. Biologist believe that elk will not mate with any bull, but only mature bulls. They were finding that many cows were simply going unbreed rather than mate with a young bull. To increase the number of mature bulls they went to spike only.
Whatever our complaints with the current system the elk number shave dramatically increased over the last 2 decades. In the 60s and 70s it was rare to see elk in many parts of the state. A 350 bull in the state was almost unheard of.
Now Colorado has the other theory, as I understand, that it is 4 point or better. I believe they are trying to accomplish the same goal, you need mature bulls to breed.
Whatever our complaints with the current system the elk number shave dramatically increased over the last 2 decades. In the 60s and 70s it was rare to see elk in many parts of the state. A 350 bull in the state was almost unheard of.
Now Colorado has the other theory, as I understand, that it is 4 point or better. I believe they are trying to accomplish the same goal, you need mature bulls to breed.
swbuckmaster
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It is a way of the inch crowd to ram their bottle neck point system down our throat. It also keeps the herd under objective but limits the tags any unit can give out for branch bulls.
Spike hunts should be eliminated IMHO and increase Le archery hunts should take their place. I personally don't believe we should kill 70% of our bulls when they are spikes. This is what the division has said happens every year.
Archery is a year round commitment!!
Spike hunts should be eliminated IMHO and increase Le archery hunts should take their place. I personally don't believe we should kill 70% of our bulls when they are spikes. This is what the division has said happens every year.
Archery is a year round commitment!!
ColoradoOak
Very Active Member
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>It is a way of the
>inch crowd to ram their
>bottle neck point system down
>our throat. It also keeps
>the herd under objective but
>limits the tags any unit
>can give out for branch
>bulls.
I may be mistaken, but weren't you the guy that was calling another member out regarding the size of the elk he had killed, compared to another member's elk, measured in inches? You must be part of the "inch crowd"?
>inch crowd to ram their
>bottle neck point system down
>our throat. It also keeps
>the herd under objective but
>limits the tags any unit
>can give out for branch
>bulls.
I may be mistaken, but weren't you the guy that was calling another member out regarding the size of the elk he had killed, compared to another member's elk, measured in inches? You must be part of the "inch crowd"?
R
rutnelk
Guest
SW that could be the stupidest thing I have ever heard on MM. Take 11,000 (or whatever the # is now) spike elk tags and give them only to archers. WOW, how many bow hunters are there in Utah 11,000? What a great idea, bowhunters should be able to hunt LE elk every year, while the other 60,000 hunters only get 1 tag every 20 years. Maybe a better plan would be to distribute the tags a little differently than you suggest. Maybe you could give the muzzle loader guys 1 tag per unit and the rifle guys 2 tags per unit? This would still give you archers 10,800 tags to do what you want.
Sorry for the rant and I hope you could sense my sarcasm, but I get sick of SOME bowhunters thinking they should get the best of everything (prime hunt dates, longest seasons, most tags). How about we share the wealth with as many hunters as possible and not just bowhunters? Just a thought.
Sorry for the rant and I hope you could sense my sarcasm, but I get sick of SOME bowhunters thinking they should get the best of everything (prime hunt dates, longest seasons, most tags). How about we share the wealth with as many hunters as possible and not just bowhunters? Just a thought.
R
rutnelk
Guest
Yes he was, and ktc called him out on it. He got called out by someone else on a Utah deer hunt thread as well. Man SW you sure know how to get everyones panties in a wad.
P
proutdoors
Guest
"Sorry for the rant and I hope you could sense my sarcasm, but I get sick of SOME bowhunters thinking they should get the best of everything (prime hunt dates, longest seasons, most tags). How about we share the wealth with as many hunters as possible and not just bowhunters? Just a thought."
How is August 16th to September 12th "prime hunt dates" for elk? Also, rifle hunters get 60% of the LE tags, so how does that compute into archers having the "most tags"? As for "longest seasons", EVERY archer I know would GLADLY cut our season length in half to hunt mid September. I want a 'rifle' guy to explain why the 'rifle' hunters "need" the peak of the rut for the most effective weapon.
I think what SWB is saying is that having spike hunts LIMITS the number of mature tags that can be issued, as does having the rifle hunt in the peak of the rut and having them enjoy 90+% success rates. If more tags were issued to archers the 'quality' would still be there, yet MORE hunters would have the opportunity to hunt mature bulls instead of YEARLINGS.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
How is August 16th to September 12th "prime hunt dates" for elk? Also, rifle hunters get 60% of the LE tags, so how does that compute into archers having the "most tags"? As for "longest seasons", EVERY archer I know would GLADLY cut our season length in half to hunt mid September. I want a 'rifle' guy to explain why the 'rifle' hunters "need" the peak of the rut for the most effective weapon.
I think what SWB is saying is that having spike hunts LIMITS the number of mature tags that can be issued, as does having the rifle hunt in the peak of the rut and having them enjoy 90+% success rates. If more tags were issued to archers the 'quality' would still be there, yet MORE hunters would have the opportunity to hunt mature bulls instead of YEARLINGS.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
R
rutnelk
Guest
I actually didn't say that the current dates are prime for archers. I also didn't say that archers currently have the most tags. I said, and I quote, "I get sick of SOME bowhunters thinking they "SHOULD" get the best of everything (prime hunt dates, longest seasons, most tags).
I don't know what SW was trying to say, but what he did say was that bowhunters should get 11,000 extra limited entry elk tags. This is the only reason I posted. I'm actually not in the mood to argue right now, but I would just like people to think of everyone, not just their own weapon choice. Pro, I think you realize that now and are trying to make it equitable for most.
I don't know what SW was trying to say, but what he did say was that bowhunters should get 11,000 extra limited entry elk tags. This is the only reason I posted. I'm actually not in the mood to argue right now, but I would just like people to think of everyone, not just their own weapon choice. Pro, I think you realize that now and are trying to make it equitable for most.
P
proutdoors
Guest
Fair enough. I haven't the stomach for an argument at the moment either.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
dgwoody
Active Member
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Pro doesnt have the stomach, so I'll chime in.
I am one of the guys that falls into your "some" category. Yes, I think it is bull s*** that the rifle guys take up the prime of the rut, so that they can make an easy hunt, even easier. There is no worse feeling then having the last three days of your hunt with the rut just starting to turn on. Especcially when you spent 9 years putting in, then started scouting in may, spent well over a grand in gas, then hunted your balls off for three and a half weeks, and never even get a shot opportunity at a big bull. Then, the day after your hunt ends, some young girl goes up on a "youth hunt" in an area that was never scouted, and blasts a big bull on opening day. Didn't spend the time scouting or putting in, didn't spend near as much time planing and hoping, just showed up and pulled the trigger. Ya, your right, thats fair. Why do any weapon guys need the elk to be ruttin? THEY DONT!! Its like the old saying "when you see a deer with a rifle, the hunt is over, when you see a deer with a bow, the hunt begins" Its crap to even start an archery hunt before the first of september. You could still give the rifle guys some good rut time even by starting the archery hunt the first weekend of september and running it three weeks. Look at Idaho.
I am one of the guys that falls into your "some" category. Yes, I think it is bull s*** that the rifle guys take up the prime of the rut, so that they can make an easy hunt, even easier. There is no worse feeling then having the last three days of your hunt with the rut just starting to turn on. Especcially when you spent 9 years putting in, then started scouting in may, spent well over a grand in gas, then hunted your balls off for three and a half weeks, and never even get a shot opportunity at a big bull. Then, the day after your hunt ends, some young girl goes up on a "youth hunt" in an area that was never scouted, and blasts a big bull on opening day. Didn't spend the time scouting or putting in, didn't spend near as much time planing and hoping, just showed up and pulled the trigger. Ya, your right, thats fair. Why do any weapon guys need the elk to be ruttin? THEY DONT!! Its like the old saying "when you see a deer with a rifle, the hunt is over, when you see a deer with a bow, the hunt begins" Its crap to even start an archery hunt before the first of september. You could still give the rifle guys some good rut time even by starting the archery hunt the first weekend of september and running it three weeks. Look at Idaho.
L
littlecaseof200itus
Guest
Well said dgwoody!
blazingsaddle
Active Member
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+1 dgwoody
I'll take a cut on half the days alowed on an LE archery elk tag, if I could hunt 1 week longer into September.
I'll take a cut on half the days alowed on an LE archery elk tag, if I could hunt 1 week longer into September.
R
rutnelk
Guest
You guys have totally misread what I said. All I was trying to say is that the tag allocation should be equitable and not all to one hunt type. Do you really think that all 11,000 tags should go to bowhunters? If you do then I guess you proved my point for me. All of the other stuff was sarcasm, sorry I didn't lay it on thick enough.
Dg I'm sorry you didn't get an elk; I actually enjoy hearing about people getting elk and seeing their pictures. I'm sorry you spent so much time and money and it didn't pay off. I'm not going to argue fair or unfair with you because life is generally not fair. I'm sure I would be upset if I were you too. Good luck on your future hunts.
Dg I'm sorry you didn't get an elk; I actually enjoy hearing about people getting elk and seeing their pictures. I'm sorry you spent so much time and money and it didn't pay off. I'm not going to argue fair or unfair with you because life is generally not fair. I'm sure I would be upset if I were you too. Good luck on your future hunts.
dgwoody,
Who twisted your arm to make you put in for that hunt?
Okay, just for sh**s and giggles, lets switch the archery and rifle hunt dates.
Rifle gets 1 month to hunt from mid Aug. to Mid Sept.
Archery gets 9 days after that.
Would that make you guys happy?
Who twisted your arm to make you put in for that hunt?
Okay, just for sh**s and giggles, lets switch the archery and rifle hunt dates.
Rifle gets 1 month to hunt from mid Aug. to Mid Sept.
Archery gets 9 days after that.
Would that make you guys happy?
WHO SAID that you HAD to hunt archery? Thats your choice of weapon. No I'm not saying that its fair or that it shouldn't change, BUT to blame rifle hunters for the archery hunt not to be in the rut is insane. It varies from year to year (the rut I mean). If you want what you call an easy hunt put in for an extra 6-7 yrs and rifle hunt? Its that simple. For everyone to get their panties in a wad over who gets to hunt when is b.s. Take it up with the DWR. And to belittle a youth girl because she lucks out and kills a nice bull on a youth hunt is b.s. too. Yes I choose to mostly hunt with a muzzy or rifle but the new bows are getting pretty deadly.....I think I may take my 14 points and draw a tag next year 
Its either luck or hard work any way you look at it, and with any weapon. Lets get back to talking hunting and not bashing each other so bad guys.
Its either luck or hard work any way you look at it, and with any weapon. Lets get back to talking hunting and not bashing each other so bad guys.
elkantlers
Long Time Member
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- 3,713
You guys took the words right out of my mouth.
LE archery hunters should know what they are getting into. It is pretty dumb to put in and draw a tag and the BIT@@ about what you got.
I for one Like the spike hunts. I would rather have a guaranteed elk tag every year than to have to draw one.
I like being able to put an elk in the freezer every year. And yes I do hunt cows when I can draw a tag.
LE archery hunters should know what they are getting into. It is pretty dumb to put in and draw a tag and the BIT@@ about what you got.
I for one Like the spike hunts. I would rather have a guaranteed elk tag every year than to have to draw one.
I like being able to put an elk in the freezer every year. And yes I do hunt cows when I can draw a tag.
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NeverStopHuntin
Guest
This post is getting off track. The spike elk hunt is the best thing that has ever happened to utah's elk herd. To say that we are killing off all of our bulls before they are adults is just stupid. Utah's elk are better then ever, we smash records every year. The population is way up. The average bull killed is still over 8 years old on some units. The bull to cow ratio is too high in many areas that is why they created management hunts and late season hunts. Just because a few archery hunters didn't kill a bull doesn't mean there are no big bulls left in this state. The spike hunt allows people who just want the meat to get out every year and shoot an elk and it leaves tons of trophy bulls for the archery, rifle, muzzleloader and shed hunters to find every year. I don't think it has been proven but it has been said that if a bull is a 2x2 its first year it has slightly better genetics then a 1x1. I would believe this to be true since only a few years ago utah hadn't even come close to the 400" mark and now 400 bulls are coming off almost every unit.
I think a lot of people that draw these LE permits think it means "automatic 400 bull for me". These permits give you opportunity to hunt where they live, not guaranty a giant bull for everyone who draws one. Just like putting in for archery only, you don't have to hold out for a Booner. The spike hunts must work as Utah's herd is crazy good.
T264
T264
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proutdoors
Guest
NeverStopHunting, while spike hunts helped increase the number of big bulls on SOME units, it was NOT the cause/effect of record class bulls on ALL LE units! What units produce the 'biggest' bulls? Pahvant and San Juan are at the top, and NEITHER issue a single spike tag. I don't recall anyone saying we are "killing off ALL of our bulls before they are adults", but we DO kill TWO spikes for every mature bull killed on the spike units, that is a FACT! My question is, WHY? Why kill 2/3 of the bulls when they are yearlings? If it is such a great management plan, why is Utah the ONLY state that uses it? Other states use spike hunts to increase mature bulls in areas for a SHORT TIME FRAME, just as Utah was supposed to do. Problem is, hunters in Utah have become addicted to spike hunting because they have been duped into believing that is the only way they can hunt elk on a regular basis, which is 100% FALSE. If you want 'meat' get a cow tag! There is NO EVIDENCE that a 2X2 yearling has any better genetics or monster antler potential than a 5 inch 1X1, NONE! Population of elk in Utah is stagnant for the most part, and with several units having extremely high bull:cow ratios, the potential for DECREASES in population are very real.
The bull:cow ratios are way high due to the myth that killing more bulls will destroy 'quality'. And, as long as the most effective weapon gets the prime time of the rut to hunt, opportunity for MORE mature tags is severally, and unnecessarily limited. By giving higher percentages of the tags to less effective weapons MORE tags can be issued with little/NO impact on 'quality'.
Spike hunts served their purpose, but I think they have long ago outlived their benefit to the health of our elk herds.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
The bull:cow ratios are way high due to the myth that killing more bulls will destroy 'quality'. And, as long as the most effective weapon gets the prime time of the rut to hunt, opportunity for MORE mature tags is severally, and unnecessarily limited. By giving higher percentages of the tags to less effective weapons MORE tags can be issued with little/NO impact on 'quality'.
Spike hunts served their purpose, but I think they have long ago outlived their benefit to the health of our elk herds.
PRO
Define, develop, and sustain BOTH trophy and opportunity hunts throughout the state of Utah.
U
UtahArcher77
Guest
Here is my breakdown of what I think would be ideal
Spike archery ends the first week of September. Then:
September 7 - 21 LE Archery
September 22 - 29 LE Muzzy
September 30 - October 6 LE Rifle
After that the spike hunters can go in and blast the hell out of everthing.
Breakdown of tags would be
50% Rifle
25% Archery
25% Muzzy
Increase overall tag numbers 50% for the first couple years across the board due to decreases in success rates and an out of whack bull:cow ratio.
I may come off bias since I am an archer, but most my friends put in for LE rifle and they still agree the rifle rut hunt is a dumb idea, they just don't have a problem taking advantage of the system.
Adjust as needed
Spike archery ends the first week of September. Then:
September 7 - 21 LE Archery
September 22 - 29 LE Muzzy
September 30 - October 6 LE Rifle
After that the spike hunters can go in and blast the hell out of everthing.
Breakdown of tags would be
50% Rifle
25% Archery
25% Muzzy
Increase overall tag numbers 50% for the first couple years across the board due to decreases in success rates and an out of whack bull:cow ratio.
I may come off bias since I am an archer, but most my friends put in for LE rifle and they still agree the rifle rut hunt is a dumb idea, they just don't have a problem taking advantage of the system.
Adjust as needed
FishlakeElkHunter
Very Active Member
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- 1,177
>Here is my breakdown of what
>I think would be ideal
>
>
>Spike archery ends the first week
>of September. Then:
>
>September 7 - 21 LE
>Archery
>September 22 - 29 LE
>Muzzy
>September 30 - October 6 LE
>Rifle
>
>After that the spike hunters can
>go in and blast the
>hell out of everthing.
>
>Breakdown of tags would be
>
>50% Rifle
>25% Archery
>25% Muzzy
>
>Increase overall tag numbers 50% for
>the first couple years across
>the board due to decreases
>in success rates and an
>out of whack bull:cow ratio.
>
>
>I may come off bias since
>I am an archer, but
>most my friends put in
>for LE rifle and they
>still agree the rifle rut
>hunt is a dumb idea,
>they just don't have a
>problem taking advantage of the
>system.
>
>Adjust as needed
Great post!!! This sounds VERY VERY reasonable!!!!!!!!!
>I think would be ideal
>
>
>Spike archery ends the first week
>of September. Then:
>
>September 7 - 21 LE
>Archery
>September 22 - 29 LE
>Muzzy
>September 30 - October 6 LE
>Rifle
>
>After that the spike hunters can
>go in and blast the
>hell out of everthing.
>
>Breakdown of tags would be
>
>50% Rifle
>25% Archery
>25% Muzzy
>
>Increase overall tag numbers 50% for
>the first couple years across
>the board due to decreases
>in success rates and an
>out of whack bull:cow ratio.
>
>
>I may come off bias since
>I am an archer, but
>most my friends put in
>for LE rifle and they
>still agree the rifle rut
>hunt is a dumb idea,
>they just don't have a
>problem taking advantage of the
>system.
>
>Adjust as needed
Great post!!! This sounds VERY VERY reasonable!!!!!!!!!
N
NeverStopHuntin
Guest
Great post Utaharcher. This all got twisted around from spike hunt or no spike hunt but i agree with your post. Most states have a similar set up to what you have put here.
dgwoody
Active Member
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I never said I didn't enjoy my hunt, because I did. It was my own fault for not killing a bull, but I decided before the hunt that it was going to be a big bull or nothing at all. I could have sat in a tree like a parrot and waited for an elk to come in, but that just isn't the way I roll, nothing against it, just not patent enough, nor do I enjoy it.
I like to spot and stalk, only thing is, you have to be able to SPOT them in order to stalk them. When its 95 degree's on opening day, in mid august, its not like their out and about looking for some lovin, like they are in mid september. Funny thing is to, you any weapon guys tell me to quit complaining, yet, the L.E. archery guys are sharin the mountain with all the other archery guys. The L.E. rifle guys get the mountain to themselves, without other hunters or livestock. They do have to deal with grouse guys, but thats it. Not only that, but lets take a look at the other states archery hunts, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado all open their hunts the first weekend in september, wonder why that is? I'm not sure about Arizona, Montana and Nevada, but I would guess their still not as early as Utah. Not to compare my hunt to the tube, but why do you think it is that on all the outdoor shows and movies (other than mossbacks) none of them are in utah with bows? All the archery elk hunts you can buy are in every state, other then Utah, Primo's, Eastmans, you name it, there all in other states.
I didn't mean to bash on the youth hunt, I am glad they do it, but they could still have good results a week or two later, and it would help the archery success rate climb a bit from the 15% (?) that it is right now. I would put in for the same hutn again, but I would wait until the first of august was going to fall on a sunday, therefore, putting the magical third saturday in august on the 20th, which would give me four more days in august. Bash away.
I like to spot and stalk, only thing is, you have to be able to SPOT them in order to stalk them. When its 95 degree's on opening day, in mid august, its not like their out and about looking for some lovin, like they are in mid september. Funny thing is to, you any weapon guys tell me to quit complaining, yet, the L.E. archery guys are sharin the mountain with all the other archery guys. The L.E. rifle guys get the mountain to themselves, without other hunters or livestock. They do have to deal with grouse guys, but thats it. Not only that, but lets take a look at the other states archery hunts, Idaho, Wyoming, Colorado all open their hunts the first weekend in september, wonder why that is? I'm not sure about Arizona, Montana and Nevada, but I would guess their still not as early as Utah. Not to compare my hunt to the tube, but why do you think it is that on all the outdoor shows and movies (other than mossbacks) none of them are in utah with bows? All the archery elk hunts you can buy are in every state, other then Utah, Primo's, Eastmans, you name it, there all in other states.
I didn't mean to bash on the youth hunt, I am glad they do it, but they could still have good results a week or two later, and it would help the archery success rate climb a bit from the 15% (?) that it is right now. I would put in for the same hutn again, but I would wait until the first of august was going to fall on a sunday, therefore, putting the magical third saturday in august on the 20th, which would give me four more days in august. Bash away.
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
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Rutnelk
to get your panties and a few others out of a bunch Ill post my feelings with out any sarcasm involved.
I am not part of the inch crowed I am however not against a big deer or elk. The way I see it there is no way to satisfy all the hunters in this state. Most of the hunters in this state want to kill a 400? bull or a 200? inch buck every year over a spike bull or a spike buck. Just ask them or ask your self what you would prefer to have.
Here is the problem most of these elk units are at objective or near objective with elk numbers. You simply cannot keep issuing cow tags to keep the herds under objective anymore. This is a fact. You can not argue it.
The real solution is to give out more bull tags but this has a catch also. If you issue more bull tags to rifle hunters with an above 95% success rate on a 3 day hunt you will positively without a doubt kill all the high end bulls off the unit. Which in my book would also be a bad thing! So the division has said they will issue a state wide spike tag. This ensures there will be a high end bull for at least 5 guys to hunt with their rifle a year. If you ask me that sucks balls. Let's take a unit where they don't issue a spike tag and they can now issue more bull tags to rifles. Why because they haven't killed 70% of the spikes ever year. It is simple math I hope you can get this.
My solution is increase rifle tags, increase muzzle loader tags, and increase archery tags. But to insure the top end you cannot give rifle or muzzle loader the lump sum of tags or the quality will suffer. This is a fact
This Is how I would do it. If it were me I would say this certain unit has so many bulls that need to be taken out. Lets say 200 bulls. I would issue the tags out according to success rate. If rifle hunters are 95% successful then they would get 10 tags. If muzzle loader hunters are 80% successful then they would get 40 tags. If archery hunters are 25% successful than they would get 150 tags.
I did not sit down and mathematically pick a perfect plan but you can see my point. They can give out more tags with more opportunity to hunt a branch antler bull without having to hurt the high end quality. Which I am for!
The other trickle down effect to you absolute die hard rifle and anti bow hunters is when they start issuing more archery tags there will be more guys picking up a stick and string and giving it a try. It is not a guarantee they will kill a bull, most if not all will eat tag soup but they will have 5 or six chances in their life or more to do it.
The current system says you might only get one chance and some will never get a chance. Fact
This fight you guys dish out on rifle vs bow is point less and lame. I am a also a rifle guy. When I hunt deer in other states I use a rifle. I have nothing against rifles. I just prefer to hunt every year in Utah and the only way I can take a deer or an elk or have a chance to do it every year is with a bow. The dedicated hunter program I can only kill 2 deer in 3 years. With archery equipment I can kill 6 deer in 6 years just like I have. If you get good you can possibly kill great deer in Utah every year with a bow. Believe me if you give me a rifle I will kill 2 deer in 3 years and do it in less hunting time. FACT
Bart's hunt on the Dutton this year proves my point to a tee. They had 4 archery tags and only one person tagged out. These guys were very effective and only ? of them got their elk. If they each had a rifle tag they would have each kill 365? plus bulls guaranteed. This would have hurt the herd on the top end without a doubt. I am not going to fight bow hunters are better than rifle hunters. I am not going to say I am a better hunter then you are. I am simply stating facts. Rifles are more successful than a piece of crap stick and string.
I would never issue 11,000 archery elk tags every year but I will never issue 11,000 spike tags a year either. Spikes are gay. I will not have anyone tell me what kind of animal I have to take with a bow or a rifle. It is my choice. If I want to shoot a gay spike I will and I will post it on this forum with pride. If I kill a monster I will post it with pride. But in the end it was my choice to take what ever I took.
You guys can spin this however you want. You can label me however you want. If I get on someone for taking a 1000 yard shot with a rifle you can expect me to say the same thing with a guy that shoots a 70 plus yard shot with a bow. I am an ethical hunter and I will police my fellow hunters whether they hunt with a bow or a rifle.
As far as calling KTC out on the size of his bull
That was not my point. I personally thought he was poking fun at one of my buds. My point was to say the reason Bart had not killed a bull was he was looking for one over 400? and to specifically target a 1% quality type of a bull the odds are astronomically against you especially with a bow. I was also saying Bart would be fine eating tag soup. That is also why I posted the stats I did. It might have turned south and this post might turn south but that is my stance.
I also was big enough to apologize too KTC publically for what I said.
As far as what kind of bull KTC killed I am glad he took one he liked. I am sure it was one of the best bulls he saw or he wouldn't have taken it. I could care less what size anyone else kills either if you kill a big one I am happy for you. IN FACT YOU WILL NEVER SEE ME POST ON ANY INTERNET SIGHT SAYING YOU SUCK FOR KILLING ANYTHING. I only give out compliments.
I like the opportunity to hunt every year with a chance for quality I personally believe archery is the only way you can insure both. My proof is the Wasatch front. Anyone who wants to pick up a bow can hunt it every year. ?This is opportunity.? You might be the lucky one to even kill a big buck. ?This is the quality part.?
There is only one problem. You will have to hunt your but off and It wont be just an easy shot. You could even give out a few rifle tags and even a few muzzle tags and it would still be good.
Archery is a year round commitment!!
to get your panties and a few others out of a bunch Ill post my feelings with out any sarcasm involved.
I am not part of the inch crowed I am however not against a big deer or elk. The way I see it there is no way to satisfy all the hunters in this state. Most of the hunters in this state want to kill a 400? bull or a 200? inch buck every year over a spike bull or a spike buck. Just ask them or ask your self what you would prefer to have.
Here is the problem most of these elk units are at objective or near objective with elk numbers. You simply cannot keep issuing cow tags to keep the herds under objective anymore. This is a fact. You can not argue it.
The real solution is to give out more bull tags but this has a catch also. If you issue more bull tags to rifle hunters with an above 95% success rate on a 3 day hunt you will positively without a doubt kill all the high end bulls off the unit. Which in my book would also be a bad thing! So the division has said they will issue a state wide spike tag. This ensures there will be a high end bull for at least 5 guys to hunt with their rifle a year. If you ask me that sucks balls. Let's take a unit where they don't issue a spike tag and they can now issue more bull tags to rifles. Why because they haven't killed 70% of the spikes ever year. It is simple math I hope you can get this.
My solution is increase rifle tags, increase muzzle loader tags, and increase archery tags. But to insure the top end you cannot give rifle or muzzle loader the lump sum of tags or the quality will suffer. This is a fact
This Is how I would do it. If it were me I would say this certain unit has so many bulls that need to be taken out. Lets say 200 bulls. I would issue the tags out according to success rate. If rifle hunters are 95% successful then they would get 10 tags. If muzzle loader hunters are 80% successful then they would get 40 tags. If archery hunters are 25% successful than they would get 150 tags.
I did not sit down and mathematically pick a perfect plan but you can see my point. They can give out more tags with more opportunity to hunt a branch antler bull without having to hurt the high end quality. Which I am for!
The other trickle down effect to you absolute die hard rifle and anti bow hunters is when they start issuing more archery tags there will be more guys picking up a stick and string and giving it a try. It is not a guarantee they will kill a bull, most if not all will eat tag soup but they will have 5 or six chances in their life or more to do it.
The current system says you might only get one chance and some will never get a chance. Fact
This fight you guys dish out on rifle vs bow is point less and lame. I am a also a rifle guy. When I hunt deer in other states I use a rifle. I have nothing against rifles. I just prefer to hunt every year in Utah and the only way I can take a deer or an elk or have a chance to do it every year is with a bow. The dedicated hunter program I can only kill 2 deer in 3 years. With archery equipment I can kill 6 deer in 6 years just like I have. If you get good you can possibly kill great deer in Utah every year with a bow. Believe me if you give me a rifle I will kill 2 deer in 3 years and do it in less hunting time. FACT
Bart's hunt on the Dutton this year proves my point to a tee. They had 4 archery tags and only one person tagged out. These guys were very effective and only ? of them got their elk. If they each had a rifle tag they would have each kill 365? plus bulls guaranteed. This would have hurt the herd on the top end without a doubt. I am not going to fight bow hunters are better than rifle hunters. I am not going to say I am a better hunter then you are. I am simply stating facts. Rifles are more successful than a piece of crap stick and string.
I would never issue 11,000 archery elk tags every year but I will never issue 11,000 spike tags a year either. Spikes are gay. I will not have anyone tell me what kind of animal I have to take with a bow or a rifle. It is my choice. If I want to shoot a gay spike I will and I will post it on this forum with pride. If I kill a monster I will post it with pride. But in the end it was my choice to take what ever I took.
You guys can spin this however you want. You can label me however you want. If I get on someone for taking a 1000 yard shot with a rifle you can expect me to say the same thing with a guy that shoots a 70 plus yard shot with a bow. I am an ethical hunter and I will police my fellow hunters whether they hunt with a bow or a rifle.
As far as calling KTC out on the size of his bull
That was not my point. I personally thought he was poking fun at one of my buds. My point was to say the reason Bart had not killed a bull was he was looking for one over 400? and to specifically target a 1% quality type of a bull the odds are astronomically against you especially with a bow. I was also saying Bart would be fine eating tag soup. That is also why I posted the stats I did. It might have turned south and this post might turn south but that is my stance.
I also was big enough to apologize too KTC publically for what I said.
As far as what kind of bull KTC killed I am glad he took one he liked. I am sure it was one of the best bulls he saw or he wouldn't have taken it. I could care less what size anyone else kills either if you kill a big one I am happy for you. IN FACT YOU WILL NEVER SEE ME POST ON ANY INTERNET SIGHT SAYING YOU SUCK FOR KILLING ANYTHING. I only give out compliments.
I like the opportunity to hunt every year with a chance for quality I personally believe archery is the only way you can insure both. My proof is the Wasatch front. Anyone who wants to pick up a bow can hunt it every year. ?This is opportunity.? You might be the lucky one to even kill a big buck. ?This is the quality part.?
There is only one problem. You will have to hunt your but off and It wont be just an easy shot. You could even give out a few rifle tags and even a few muzzle tags and it would still be good.
Archery is a year round commitment!!
bowhunt
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,191
LAST EDITED ON Sep-16-08 AT 07:42PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-16-08 AT 07:33?PM (MST)
We hunt spikes because 11,000 people want to. Some years I am one of them, and so are my 2 sons.
I really get tired of people wanting to limit our hunting further...why? So someone can kill a bigger bull? Guess what guys some people (like my kids, and sometime me) are frequently happy trying to shoot a spike or a cow. I see plenty of good bulls coming off of the Wasatch unit this year, so you are going to have a hard time convicing me that killing spikes is screwing it up.
I love to Bowhunt! I would prefer hunting big bulls, so I hunt multiple states for that opportunity. I recognize that in Utah I can hunt maybe twice in my life for a big bull, but I can take my kids and myself hunting spikes every year if I choose to. Man I hate the thought of limiting hunting further.
Also while I am typing...would I like to see the limited entry bow season changed, yeah maybe. But I know going in how it is going to be. Even if I hunt to the 15th of September it is going to be tough! I am aware of that, so I make a decision and then live with it. It does suck waiting 8 years and then not be able to get an animal..but you cannot say: I was robbed, the hunt should go longer.
You already knew the dates.
Catman said it very well "wait 7-9 years longer if you want to hunt the rut"
Just my thoughts.
We hunt spikes because 11,000 people want to. Some years I am one of them, and so are my 2 sons.
I really get tired of people wanting to limit our hunting further...why? So someone can kill a bigger bull? Guess what guys some people (like my kids, and sometime me) are frequently happy trying to shoot a spike or a cow. I see plenty of good bulls coming off of the Wasatch unit this year, so you are going to have a hard time convicing me that killing spikes is screwing it up.
I love to Bowhunt! I would prefer hunting big bulls, so I hunt multiple states for that opportunity. I recognize that in Utah I can hunt maybe twice in my life for a big bull, but I can take my kids and myself hunting spikes every year if I choose to. Man I hate the thought of limiting hunting further.
Also while I am typing...would I like to see the limited entry bow season changed, yeah maybe. But I know going in how it is going to be. Even if I hunt to the 15th of September it is going to be tough! I am aware of that, so I make a decision and then live with it. It does suck waiting 8 years and then not be able to get an animal..but you cannot say: I was robbed, the hunt should go longer.
You already knew the dates.
Catman said it very well "wait 7-9 years longer if you want to hunt the rut"
Just my thoughts.
B
bhw5757
Guest
I have been on this site for longer than most, I check in almost daily for near on ten years now, but hardly never post due to the b. s that happen on any good post, like this one. I'm all so most likely older than most of you. I'm not a bow hunter; I hunt with a black powder or rifle. I got my bull tag last year so I will never see an other bull tag in Utah, you won't catch me in the hills on the open day of the spike hunt, My elk hunting is maybe helping a friend, or a cow hunt or taking pitcher or horn hunting.
So I would like to put my two cent in on this. When I started hunting elk the 2 top units in the state was boulder and Monroe, no one knew anything about the pavaunt or San Juan. They put about 150 tags on Boulder and 10 tags on Monroe , at that time they were killing maybe 2 or 3, 350 bulls and if you where real lucky maybe a 370. And we had are open units in the state like fishlake and some of the others, they were open to any bulls and you could buy a tag over the counter, the hunter success was somewhere in the 6-10% range and 90% where spikes. In the late 80s they open the boulder unit up to an open bull, in two years hunter success was about the same as any of the other unit. That when they went to the spike bull, (and needless to say we thought at the time, that was the stupidest thing they ever did). expect for the boulder unit it stay any bull, tell about 5 years ago, and now it has produce 400 ins bulls for the last two year and will kept doing so.
It took about 3 years and they started to put trophy bull tag on the spike units. And the rest is history
Now my thought on what to do now is start managing some of the other units as spike bull like Monroe. Southwest desert and some of the others, for a few years just to get the cow to bull ratio down, it will all so help the other units because it would spread the hunters out. I forgot the fish & game would want more tags. needless to say it is a lot better than we had.
bhw
So I would like to put my two cent in on this. When I started hunting elk the 2 top units in the state was boulder and Monroe, no one knew anything about the pavaunt or San Juan. They put about 150 tags on Boulder and 10 tags on Monroe , at that time they were killing maybe 2 or 3, 350 bulls and if you where real lucky maybe a 370. And we had are open units in the state like fishlake and some of the others, they were open to any bulls and you could buy a tag over the counter, the hunter success was somewhere in the 6-10% range and 90% where spikes. In the late 80s they open the boulder unit up to an open bull, in two years hunter success was about the same as any of the other unit. That when they went to the spike bull, (and needless to say we thought at the time, that was the stupidest thing they ever did). expect for the boulder unit it stay any bull, tell about 5 years ago, and now it has produce 400 ins bulls for the last two year and will kept doing so.
It took about 3 years and they started to put trophy bull tag on the spike units. And the rest is history
Now my thought on what to do now is start managing some of the other units as spike bull like Monroe. Southwest desert and some of the others, for a few years just to get the cow to bull ratio down, it will all so help the other units because it would spread the hunters out. I forgot the fish & game would want more tags. needless to say it is a lot better than we had.
bhw
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,004
Bowhunt I am fine with leaving the spike hunt on the Wasatch and the units with spikes hunts on them. Leave them alone.
What I don't want to see is the rest of the state turned into a state wide spike hunt. This is what the division is proposing right now. I personally feel this is a waste of resources.
Archery is a year round commitment!!
What I don't want to see is the rest of the state turned into a state wide spike hunt. This is what the division is proposing right now. I personally feel this is a waste of resources.
Archery is a year round commitment!!
as a RAC member I think that some type of rotation for hunting seasons should be considered. It wouldn't bother me one bit if the LE elk archery and rifle seasons alternated so that archers also could have a season that coincided with the rut. If that ever happens, I am sure that many huntrs tht enjoy both archery and rifle would probably put in for the one that would be during the rut. I believe that even if the rifle hunt was held outside of the rut the success rate would still be very high. I would even put the muzzleloader hunt into that rotation. I don't think that putting those three hunts on a three year rotation would be difficult. The rut varies somewhat throughout the state and of course weather can affect it somewhat. It seems it can vary 2-3 weeks from year to year, so I guess we all have to deal with that inconsistency whether we are rifle, archer or muzzy. I would like someone to make a proposal at the RACs that would propose this type of rotation. Anyone out there that would be willing to put something together?
Bart--my prayers are with your wife and you.
Bart--my prayers are with your wife and you.
swbuckmaster
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,004
albubba
You are correct you would have to give out more tags than I stated. Does my idea make any sense?
I am not a mathematician but I want to see more tags given out across the board. I just want to see more tags go to primitive weapons so people if they want can choose to pick up a bow and cycle through the system without hurting the quality.
Just because you draw an archery tag doesn't guarantee you will get a bull. You are probably 4 times less likely to tag a bull with a bow.
Archery is a year round commitment!!
You are correct you would have to give out more tags than I stated. Does my idea make any sense?
I am not a mathematician but I want to see more tags given out across the board. I just want to see more tags go to primitive weapons so people if they want can choose to pick up a bow and cycle through the system without hurting the quality.
Just because you draw an archery tag doesn't guarantee you will get a bull. You are probably 4 times less likely to tag a bull with a bow.
Archery is a year round commitment!!
Cam@strawberry
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,286
Here goes my two bits into this shiz storm. Whoever said the archers are forced into a hunt is crazy. you know exactely why you are puttin for it and what the struggles will be. Quit whining! you do it because instead of a 15+ year wait its a 5-10 year wait. You switch it and what happens it becomes the same deal 15 year wait because its the sought after tag. Leave it be take your lumps and deal with it. personally id hate to be bowhunter in the rut, the bulls move so much its pretty hard. Rifle in august early september?? awesome find a monster bull with all his buddies and pop him, not find a monster bull before the hunt and watch him move six canyons chasing cows.
As for the spikes, its one of the worst things that you can do to an elk herd. Killing off one class of bulls is not an effective way of managing a bull to cow ratio. Look at the wasatch, the ratio is so bad that more and more LE and cow tags have to be issued each year because so many yearling bulls are gettin thru. What happens with more and more LE tags? less and less quality!! its simple. be a little more broad in your management, like a spike to three point tag, true its very complex and most would be after the trophy three point, but it would still make success, and management of the ratio easier.
The management tags that are in effect now are a load of crap as well just a LE tag with the opportunity to kill a broken up mature bull.
I doubt this will fly with all of the experts on here but thats the best i could think off.
Wildlife population control specialist
As for the spikes, its one of the worst things that you can do to an elk herd. Killing off one class of bulls is not an effective way of managing a bull to cow ratio. Look at the wasatch, the ratio is so bad that more and more LE and cow tags have to be issued each year because so many yearling bulls are gettin thru. What happens with more and more LE tags? less and less quality!! its simple. be a little more broad in your management, like a spike to three point tag, true its very complex and most would be after the trophy three point, but it would still make success, and management of the ratio easier.
The management tags that are in effect now are a load of crap as well just a LE tag with the opportunity to kill a broken up mature bull.
I doubt this will fly with all of the experts on here but thats the best i could think off.
Wildlife population control specialist
DG, You really should think about finding yourself a new guide that know how to get off the road a little bit you know those big bulls are not going to find any loven smack dab in the middle of the "SINKS ROAD" you can not blame it on your early hunt date that you did not get an elk because while scouting in same area during your hunt I had run across several respectable bulls within bow range so I will not shed a tear for you and I know lots of rifle and muzzey hunter that go without it all comes down to luck and preperation so lets leave it with that this thread was about spike hunting and overall I think it has been a good program considering back when it was a general any bull unit all that was killed were your spikes and an occasional rag horn now you can go up any given day and see some decent bulls.
T
Typical
Guest
>From my point of view, it
>has very little to do
>with managing elk, and lots
>to do with managing how
>many people want to hunt
>them.
>Spike units allow a big number
>of people the opportunity to
>at least hunt elk and
>it still keeps some quality
>bulls for limited entry hunting
>and breeding. It is
>certainly a compromise that allows
>some quality and quantity hunting.
> Good or bad, that's
>my take.
Wow! Crazy the directions this thread has gone when Little Big pretty well summed in up in the first reply. DWR has to appease folks that want to hunt evey year and they also must have the $.5 million dollars those tags generate. Spike hunts are the cleanest way to do that.
Everyone is calling it the rifle hunt, but isn't the LE rutt hunt an any legal weapon hunt? Doesn't that mean that you could use a bow? So, if the bow hunters want to hunt the rutt, put in for the "any legal weapon" hunt and have at it. I know when I hunted my LE, I was the only one chasing the bulls that I chased.
>has very little to do
>with managing elk, and lots
>to do with managing how
>many people want to hunt
>them.
>Spike units allow a big number
>of people the opportunity to
>at least hunt elk and
>it still keeps some quality
>bulls for limited entry hunting
>and breeding. It is
>certainly a compromise that allows
>some quality and quantity hunting.
> Good or bad, that's
>my take.
Wow! Crazy the directions this thread has gone when Little Big pretty well summed in up in the first reply. DWR has to appease folks that want to hunt evey year and they also must have the $.5 million dollars those tags generate. Spike hunts are the cleanest way to do that.
Everyone is calling it the rifle hunt, but isn't the LE rutt hunt an any legal weapon hunt? Doesn't that mean that you could use a bow? So, if the bow hunters want to hunt the rutt, put in for the "any legal weapon" hunt and have at it. I know when I hunted my LE, I was the only one chasing the bulls that I chased.
R
rather_be_huntin
Guest
>I am one of the guys
>that falls into your "some"
>category. Yes, I think it
>is bull s*** that the
>rifle guys take up the
>prime of the rut, so
>that they can make an
>easy hunt, even easier. There
>is no worse feeling then
>having the last three days
>of your hunt with the
>rut just starting to turn
>on. Especcially when you spent
>9 years putting in, then
>started scouting in may, spent
>well over a grand in
>gas, then hunted your balls
>off for three and a
>half weeks, and never even
>get a shot opportunity at
>a big bull.
I don't know you or have a beef with you personally but I have heard this over and over and I will tell you I have a big beef with this argument. I am both a bow hunter and a rifle hunter and I can tell you as an archer I have more options than being a rifle hunter. You guys that make this argument are guilty of your own ignorance and stereotype and I'll tell you why. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RIFLE HUNT IN UTAH!!!! There are archery hunts, muzzy hunts, and any weapon hunts. As an archer you have the option to put in for an archery only hunt and not have to worry about gun shots going off OR the any weapon hunt during the heavier rutted up time. If you were aware of this then you could make your choice and wouldn't have a beef and actually realize you have more options than the rifle guys. And I don't wanna hear the argument that the rifle guys would mess up your bow hunt if you did the any weapon hunt. It might mean you have to work a little harder to get away from some of the hunters but there are a lot of bulls taken on the ANY WEAPON hunts that are taken within archery range. Just look through the posts right here on MM.
>that falls into your "some"
>category. Yes, I think it
>is bull s*** that the
>rifle guys take up the
>prime of the rut, so
>that they can make an
>easy hunt, even easier. There
>is no worse feeling then
>having the last three days
>of your hunt with the
>rut just starting to turn
>on. Especcially when you spent
>9 years putting in, then
>started scouting in may, spent
>well over a grand in
>gas, then hunted your balls
>off for three and a
>half weeks, and never even
>get a shot opportunity at
>a big bull.
I don't know you or have a beef with you personally but I have heard this over and over and I will tell you I have a big beef with this argument. I am both a bow hunter and a rifle hunter and I can tell you as an archer I have more options than being a rifle hunter. You guys that make this argument are guilty of your own ignorance and stereotype and I'll tell you why. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A RIFLE HUNT IN UTAH!!!! There are archery hunts, muzzy hunts, and any weapon hunts. As an archer you have the option to put in for an archery only hunt and not have to worry about gun shots going off OR the any weapon hunt during the heavier rutted up time. If you were aware of this then you could make your choice and wouldn't have a beef and actually realize you have more options than the rifle guys. And I don't wanna hear the argument that the rifle guys would mess up your bow hunt if you did the any weapon hunt. It might mean you have to work a little harder to get away from some of the hunters but there are a lot of bulls taken on the ANY WEAPON hunts that are taken within archery range. Just look through the posts right here on MM.
logslinger
Active Member
- Messages
- 505
Well said SWbuckmaster.
R
rather_be_huntin
Guest
LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-08 AT 01:28PM (MST)[p]>This post is getting off track.
>The spike elk hunt is
>the best thing that has
>ever happened to utah's elk
>herd.
Good point and sorry for getting off track. On paper I don't like the spike hunt concept but it's hard to argue with the results.
Under the spike only system I used to feel like that the units that had spike hunts were a "second rate" LE units and was only created for revenue purposes and to appease the masses. I never expected to see the same caliber of bulls or as many large bulls on these units.
With that being said over the past 5 years I have been on those units and I can believe that the big bulls are there and are plentiful. The only real effect I've noticed is that the bulls are a bit more spooky on the spike only units and the elk are dug a bit deeper but that's about it.
If we are seeing a decline of big bulls on those units reason would say there is something else causing that because they got to where they are (or where they were a year or 2 ago if you believe there is decline in the number of big bulls) under this system.
It's hard to argue with the results. My 2 cents.
PS - There is no such thing as a "rifle hunt". There are only "any wepaon hunts" in Utah. As an archer you can hunt either one.
>The spike elk hunt is
>the best thing that has
>ever happened to utah's elk
>herd.
Good point and sorry for getting off track. On paper I don't like the spike hunt concept but it's hard to argue with the results.
Under the spike only system I used to feel like that the units that had spike hunts were a "second rate" LE units and was only created for revenue purposes and to appease the masses. I never expected to see the same caliber of bulls or as many large bulls on these units.
With that being said over the past 5 years I have been on those units and I can believe that the big bulls are there and are plentiful. The only real effect I've noticed is that the bulls are a bit more spooky on the spike only units and the elk are dug a bit deeper but that's about it.
If we are seeing a decline of big bulls on those units reason would say there is something else causing that because they got to where they are (or where they were a year or 2 ago if you believe there is decline in the number of big bulls) under this system.
It's hard to argue with the results. My 2 cents.
PS - There is no such thing as a "rifle hunt". There are only "any wepaon hunts" in Utah. As an archer you can hunt either one.
