Share Your Opinion! (Wyoming Hunting)

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Mr. Wharff, a representative of SFW-Wyoming asked me to put together a poll asking questions of those who have an interest in Wyoming hunting. The poll is located by clicking on the link below:
http://www.monstermuleys.com/polls/swwyoming.html

After taking the poll, feel free to jump into this thread and voice your thoughts on various issues and give suggestions.
Bob will attending the WY G&F Commission meeting in a few weeks and is hoping to get a more in-depth feel for how sportsmen feel about Wyoming hunting, fishing, etc.

Please, this is not a thread for those who only want to talk trash about SFW and what they're doing. Go elsewhere for that. This thread is to discuss some of the issues Wyoming is facing.

PS - It won't be long before the scouting will begin!!!
425dea404c3c2fe2.jpg

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-13-05 AT 10:27PM (MST)[p]Thanks Brian for setting this up. Mr. Wharff makes me feel old though. Hopefully, everyone will take the time to complete this poll. Just for the record, I haven't participated in this poll.

For those that have an interest:

Jim Vilos and Jack Hone of Kemmerer, WY have scheduled a meeting April 20, 2005 to discuss mule deer management in SW Wyoming. The meeting is scheduled to begin at 7:00 pm at the Eagles Nest, 806 Klondyke Street, Kemmerer, WY.

For more information, please contact Jim Vilos via email at [email protected]
 
Now this is a step in the right direction. Hopefully we can get enough input to help those that are in the management, not only in the field, but politically as well, to make the necessary changes to improve the hunting in SW Wyoming.
I love to hunt the high country in SW Wyoming more than anywhere in the world, and I'd love to see the big bucks come back.
Let's Git er Done!
Deerbedead
 
Smokestick,

Here are a few thoughts. I have hunted Wyoming 4 years. The experience has declined. The first year in 1998? was few people lots of deer. The last year, 2 years ago, many people and less deer.

I support limited quota in any and every area. It must be controlled for quality whether it is Utah or Wyoming or anywhere.

My experience has also been ATV's are kept out of the area I hunt, but after one snow storm the snowmobile tracks were everywhere. Kind of ruined the hunt. Outfitters seem to infest the area also, but hey, I guess they need to make a living too.

I hope you can fix what appears to be broken before the ship sinks completely. I did not answer every poll question because I am not privy to them all.
 
I have not hunted Wyoming but I plan to in the future. All reports that I have heard, indicate that Wyoming is in need of a quota system. I'm with smokestick, I will support a quota system in any state. Most people complain that they won't get to hunt every year if a quota system is in place. Yes, you won't get to hunt every year in your favorite area, but there will always be oppurtunities to hunt. I know there are a lot of guys that dont support "trophy management", however if you manage for trophy there will always be an abundance of bucks of all age class.
Now about ATVs. I have made several posts about ATVs over the years and my feelings have not changed. I believe ATV's are one of the factors in the decline of our deer herds. ATV's have created a whole new class of hunter. There has been so many new trails opened or made through out the west that's it's near impossible to find a place that isn't a mile from any road. Most these guys are killing the first thing they see. They can cover 4 times the ground. These yearling buck have no chance. Contrast this to 20 years ago when ATVs and trails were minimal. The class of hunter that I described above didn't exist. The guys that tagged their deer earned it the good ole fashion way. They hiked their tails off! Not many were willing to expend their energy so more deer survived to see the next season. Having said this, I own an ATV and I have had a lot of fun with it. When I'm hunting, i use it strictly for getting me to the area I'll be hunting for the day. For the aged or handicapped hunter, road hunting, may be the only alternative. I got no beef with these guys. Bottom line is, more restrictions need to be in place for ATVs because it getting ridiculous.

Mike

Mike
 
Hello:
I'm a new member of this thing and so far have just read everybodys thoughts. Time to say something.

Wyoming is special to me because it's where my family came from. I've hunted there all my life as a non resident.

This survey has brough up some interesting subjects. One, the decline of the Moose population. I'm 56 years old and when I was a kid my family used to pack in and hunt the Tetons every year, there were Moose everywhere. Two years ago I spent 17 days up there on a friends moose hunt, we saw one moose in the 17 days of hunting. What we did see was 7 grizzleys and about 400 Elk. With each Elk sighting we saw Wolves lots of Wolves. I'll bet we saw 50 wolves.
I talked to a Forest service employee and told him of our find, he said "ya! the wolves move from the moose to the elk because the Moose calve earlier, there all over the place"

We need a season to hunt Wolves in Wyoming.

It all comes down to preditors, we need to be able to control them. Were looseing our Deer, Elk, and Moose because of preditors.
Enough said
Thanks for letting me spout off
Packerhorse
 
Here's my take.

I've either hunted or been on hunts in Wyoming for the last 6 years. Went through one streak of 3 G tags in a row, have also spent some time in H and K. I also spend some time on the winter ranges looking at deer and for sheds.

Just in the short time that I've spent up there I can see a definite decline in the quality and number of the big bucks. It is still likely one of the best spots in the West to bag a big buck, but it's going down hill fast.

I believe that there has been a huge increase in the number of hunters-mainly resident. The explosive growth of new gas-well pads, roads, refineries, etc. on the winter range aren't doing anything to help the situation either. Haliburton employees may soon outnumber the native locals 2 to 1.

The miles and miles of new and existing roads on the winter range have made the deer available to everyone. I have also seen ATV trails further and further back into the Salt River and Wyoming ranges. It has gotten very difficult for the deer to have much refuge anywhere-from summer to winter.

I believe the only way Southwest Wyoming will be able to continue to produce trophy deer is to make G and H a limited quota draw for residents. Region K has enough private land to limit hunter pressure.

The wolves are a whole other post.
 
A couple of other comments; first it's NOT just western Wyoming that needs help. The east has lots more private land, but the management still needs a major upgrade. We did make some progress this year and doe hunting is at least eliminated in some areas, but nearly all areas are still over-the-couter and there are leftover licenses for nonresidents. Please help us over here, too.

Regarding western Wyo, I've written here before that it has been on on a downhill slide for over 2 decades. I quit going in '97 and won't go back until management changes are in place. Too many hunters and the quality is not what it could be.

Good luck in your effort. You are fighting an uphill battle and it will take time - LOTS of time - to change a system that's been engrained for decades.

I'll share my data on the southeast Wyoming survey when I get a chance. It is much like yours, but I also asked questions about deer numbers 10 and 20 years ago, as well as how many more deer folks want to see. Nearly everyone felt deer numbers were half or less than what they used to be and would like to see twice as many deer as we presently have.

Keep up the good effort!
 
ICMDEER,

When this poll was put together it originated based on some discussions dealing with SW Wyoming; however, I tried to expand it to incorporate other issues that are statewide in nature as well. You are correct that Eastern Wyoming has some similar issues and problems that also need to be addressed as well as some issues that are unique to Eastern Wyoming. I would be interested in hearing what issues you believe need addressing as well.

Thanks again for everyones comments and participation in this poll.
 
I have hunted G or H for 5 of the last 7 years and have seen a huge change in the quality of the units as well. For the 1998-2001 seasons the numbers of mature bucks was very good, so was the number of nice bucks on the winter ranges. 2002 was the first year that the quality dropped off dramatically, then 2003 was similar to 2002. 2004 was the worst year to date for the area. The amount of 180 class bucks on the winter ranges is 10% of what they were 5 years ago.

I believe the major problem lies in that there was an incredible amount of harvest of the older age class deer in the 2000 and 2001 hunting seasons, then a significant die-off of older age class deer in the winter of 2001. Then the pressure kept increasing the next three years so the median buck size has been kept down.

Obviously there is a lot more people hunting the units, but i think there is a lot more people hunting the units well. I would think that people who have hunted the same high country drainages the last 5-7 years would report far more hunters with good optics glassing the basins at first and last light. Yes there still is some good bucks killed in those places ever year, but the number is dropping quick. I am not just talking about places 1-2 miles from the road either. I hunt a ridge 2-5 miles from the road and there is significantly more hunters on it now than 5 years ago. It is now very difficult for a buck to live to 5-7 years old in the open, steep amazing country that is in this area.

I cannot believe that the forest service allows people to bring their ATV's into the Bridger-Teton National Forests. What an amazing place they have, and what a way to reduce the wilderness values it holds. I believe you can now legally drive an ATV into the same basin that Popeye grew old in. Do you think Popeye would have died of old age or do you think he would be shot as a 27 inch 3 year old if he would have been born in 2000? Too many hunters with extremely effective killing tools in the prime buck areas is what is the main problem in G/H, and the legal ATV roads (NOT TRAILS!) in and over the Salt River Range is a huge factor in this. And as people who hunt the areas where there is a legal ATV road know, there is 10 miles of regularly traveled illegal roads for every one recognized route. No I am not saying that people are dumping all the 3 year olds off their ATV, but there is plenty of 3 year olds dying from people hunting areas they shouldnt be and definately areas they wouldnt consider killing a lesser buck unless they have their ATV's to haul it out with.

One last thought...if they made it so all deer hunting in the Wyoming and Salt River Ranges was done with 30-30's and no spotting scopes and kept it general season this year and for years to come, Do you think there would be more 180 bucks killed in 2010 than if they make it limited quota now and into the future? I believe the first scenario would prodcue more mature deer. In the last ten years, we have developed the tools for effectively killing bucks in the open areas of the West. Sure there would be fewer bucks killed in 2005 than there would otherwise be, but after 5 years of limited tachnology there would be many more mature bucks in the spectacular deer country up there, and therefore many more mature bucks to chase around, and therefore more truly big deer killed. I know it would never happen and i am not advocating it, this thought is just to illustrate the point that we are too effective at killing old deer.

There is no way the Game and Fish would or could regulate calibers or optics, but they must do something about the things they can control.

#1: Reduce Motor Vehicle Access.
#2: Reduce the number of permits. Face the fact that the feasibility of general season hunting in G/H for residents is gone. This is very obvious, i really dont understand why there is even really a discussion here.

What i dont want to happen is for them to be easy on access but sharply cut the tags. That is a give-up approach to the problem. They have to be tough on access AND reduce the permits numbers to levels that have more thought behind them than just the number of residents who feel like hunting the area, plus 3000 non's.

SW Wyoming is one of the best mule deer factories in the world, but demand is now much greater than supply. We are now stunting the output of what should be one of the best mule deer regions in the world, and i feel like the Game and Fish should feel troubled by this enough to do something about it.

Sorry for the long post, my ride was late picking me up from work.

Pinenut
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-05 AT 06:17PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-14-05 AT 06:16?PM (MST)

Thank you for posting the poll. I was surprised at the results. The drought is having an affect but the USF&W and G&F are using it as a crutch.

The atv has always been an issue with me, I own one, but after seeing what other owners do and how they conduct themselves, I am ashamed to take mine out of the yard. And I haven't for 6 years. And since it doesn't snw any more I don't even use it to plow snow!
 
My first hunt in area G was in 1977. It was 4 points or better and there were lots of good buch to choose from. We liked it so much we bought a ranch in Smoot. Life was good and the hunting better. We have since sold the ranch. The hunting was bad tags were impossible to draw. To many resident hunters, live stock ruined the winter habitat and preditors runamuk. Still I would love to go back and hunt that high country when and if it ever recovers.
 
>There is no way the Game
>and Fish would or could
>regulate calibers or optics, but
>they must do something about
>the things they can control.

They do have control over weapons. They could limit optics to a certain power.

>#1: Reduce Motor Vehicle Access.

This they have no control over. They cannot restrict vehicles within the National Forest or BLM lands, this is the domain of other agencies.

>#2: Reduce the number of
>permits. Face the fact
>that the feasibility of general
>season hunting in G/H for
>residents is gone. This
>is very obvious, i really
>dont understand why there is
>even really a discussion here.

This they have control over as well.

>What i dont want to happen
>is for them to be
>easy on access but sharply
>cut the tags. That
>is a give-up approach to
>the problem. They have
>to be tough on access
>AND reduce the permits numbers
>to levels that have more
>thought behind them than just
>the number of residents who
>feel like hunting the area,
>plus 3000 non's.
>Pinenut

People falsely believe that roads pushed into forest areas are by hunters. This is not the case... there are a great many non-hunting "weekend warriors" who are abusing the trail systems OUT SIDE OF HUNTING SEASONS. It is NOT the responsibility of the F&G to manage this, nor should it be.

I am all for legal ATV use, but people who enter wilderness areas illegally on an ATV deserve to A) loose the ATV and B) be forced to pay the fine to have it air lifted out.

National Forests are by definition "multi-use" and I'll bet if it were put to a vote, there are a great many more people who wish to be able to (legally) use their atvs there than those who wish to ban them, IMO that fight is already been lost.


-DallanC
 
Pinenut,
I really like your idea about reducing the long range weapons. How about making it muzzleloader only without scopes? It would reduce all the long range shoooting and probablly some hunters as well. At the same time the experience would be better and more challenging, and the areas could stay a general unit.
 
I responded to the poll even though I have never hunted in southwest WY. I have hunted the past 7 years in D, J and one time in C. I am a non-resident and have only killed one mule deer in those seven years and have never had a decent opportunity to kill a 4 X 4 buck. I have turned down a lot of forkhorns and a few small 3 X 3s and have eaten 6 tags rather than shot a buck smaller than the whitetails back home. I keep coming back because I love the state and have met a lot of very nice people including a couple of guys who let me hunt antelope on their ranches but appologized because they didn't have enough mule deer on 20,000+ acres to let anyone hunt them.

Congratulations to everyone who rated their hunting experience a 7 or 8! I wish I could join you. I rated my hunting experience as a 3 and I would have to say it has been going downward over the past 7 years. If I rated my experience on the beauty and splendor of the state it would be a 10+ but I rated my hunting experience half on the number of deer seen and have on the opportunity to kill a decent sized buck. I would love to see a 24" 4 X 4, let alone have the chance to kill one. But I have seen only a couple and they were gone before I could blink. I have never hunted for deer on private property in WY, only public access lands.

Remember, I am rating eastern WY and not the western part of the state. I believe WY should look at implementing antler point restrictions over a much wider part of the state and do more to cut down on the predator population. I hunted one time in the White River NF in Colorado and swore I would never go back because I couldn't walk far enough to get to a place where I couldn't see another person in orange clothing. There were hunters everywhere. I think that was the last year Colorado sold over the counter deer tags. There are still places in WY where I have been able to walk on public land and get away from other hunters but in my experience, the deer have been pretty scarce. I own a 4-wheeler but have never taken it to WY because there are already enough of them in WY. I don't know what the state can do about people who drive off trails.

Searchin' for a 4 X 4
 
Predators? nope. Drought? nope. The number one predator of any buck deer is a hunter I believe. Everyone wants to focus on wolves etc. blah blah blah. I believe two things have to happen in WY for the mule deer to come back. Limit the amount of hunters and to help the mule deer during the winter we must stop livestock grazing on known winter ranges. Livestock eat up quite a bit the graze before snow even touches the mountains.

I do not like the limiting access part. Everyone deserves to be out there so closing off all the roads is not fair in my opinion. Closing of excess two tracks isn't a bad idea but some people think closing off all the roads is best, that no one enjoys the mountains except hunters (and hunters in great shape also ;)). Now ATV's is another thread. May they burn in hell ;) ;)

Just joking.

I love hunting region G, H every year, and I would hate to give that up as a resident. But if I have to so be it.
 
I am going to show my ignorance as a non-resident who did apply for a license in H this year; what is the current "feed ground program"; I am not familar with that term. thanks
 
First of all I am a resident of Wyoming and have hunted western Wyoming where I was born and raised. I will tell you that the deer, elk, and moose populations are all hurting, while the predator populations flourish. First of all, They need to open a longer season on bears, maybe even hand them out with elk tags once again. Then they need to double or triple the number of Mtn. Lion killed each year. Then come the wolves. Which need to be listed as a predator and let people shoot them. They aren't going extinct, if people want to see them let them go to Canada. I know for a fact that people shoot wolves anyways and poison them. It has been all over in the newspapers where I come from that people are poisoning for them and that the Game & Fish are investigating to try to find out who. They are going to get shot whether it is legal or not according to a lot of friends and others I have heard talking. The predators are outrageously numerous. I went from seeing 0 to maybe 1 bear a year if I was lucky. To where now your lucky if you don't see a bear. And the Lions are just as bad, if you don't see them you are always crossing their tracks. Now the wolves, Come on when is it going to stop.

Also I know that hunting pressure has increased a ton and that has really hurt the habitat, but I will tell you nothing pisses me off more then when I went hunting two falls ago and somebody had just tore the heck out of the land with their four wheeler. New tracks everywhere, trash everywhere. Come on guys we don't need to do that. If people are too lazy to walk off the already made two tracks then they shouldn't be hunting. I don't have any problem with the guys that stick to the already made roads, It's just when they have to make a new one.

I do not think that a four point or better season will do much good because where I am from their are alot of bucks that have terrible genetics in other words they are just a big two or three point all of their life. All a 4-point or better season would do is let all of the good genetic bucks that reach a 4-point early get shot and all the bad genetic bucks that will only be two points all of their lifes live and do all of the breeding.

I am not for a limited quota season either. I think first they need to limit the number of predators and then if that doesn't work go to a limited quota system.

huntervirg
 
huntervirg,

I agree with pretty much everything you said, but I do think that the Wyoming Game and Fish needs to manage the most efficient predator out there-MAN. There is too much pressure from the two legged kind, whether they have Utah, Idaho, California, etc., or WYOMING plates on their trucks.
 
Prism,

I know what your saying and it might and probably should come to that. I just hate to see everybody blame hunters when predators are a huge part of it. But I do agree with man being a huge predator. I have though seen in my hunting experiences an area that used to hold a ton of deer and elk go to where you see few deer or elk or even sign of them there. This is a place that receives little hunting pressure, however, in the last three years I have seen two mtn. lions, and two different bears (one dark black and one more of a reddish cinnamon color. I think that all factors combined, man, bears, wolves, lions, wolves, and development have had a huge impact on our wildlife herds.

huntervirg
 
Can't believe the G & F would put any weight on poll responses gathered primarily from a bunch cyber cowboys with fictious names. The G & F was taking hunter opinions on the upcoming seasons until just a few weeks ago. I wrote in and advised:
-
to maintain the states positon of not allowing landowner set asides,
to not allow transferable hunting licenses,
to push for legislation like Colorado has that would not require the G&F to give out non resident hunting licenses in certain area's and for certain species if the resident demand was too high or the quota's too low,
to eliminate yearly fishing licenses for non residents,
start a preference point system for resident limited quota deer and elk,

I think I've wrote my legislative representatives on some of these same issues also.
 
i"m with you bb
eastern wyoming the game and fish started closing the season earlier and the deer rebounded, it was supposed to last 7 years but the ranchers screamed and they shortened it now the bigger bucks are getting pounded during the heavy rut again and buck size is falling.
i'm talking the white tail in the bearlodge. out in moskie the old homestake land has been closed for several years and i expect there are some dandy's there.but i wish they would have finished the program in the bear lodge.
closing the season the 23 of nov helped the older bucks by giving them the chance to live threw the rut.
area 158 out of casper needs to have a any 3 point season to bring up the better genetics that are there but way outnumbered but lesser genetic three points. there are lots of huge three points but few four points or better.i have been finding sheds out there and there are 10 older three's to every 1 older four point.
i would like to see some more archery only areas. muddy mountain rifle season is insain the amount of hunters has gone up ten fold in the past three years. hunter management areas caused some of this increse.
i don't care who wonted the wolves here in wyoming but it wasn't us wyomingites and my feelings are get them out every last one if washington tree huggers wont them put them there.
the lion population has been controlled on muddy and last year i never cut a track but in 89 i saw more lion tracks then deer.
the game and fish upped the quota and helpped the situation,thank you.
cwd is also hurting the deer i have seen several deer that i think had it.we even ate one.
 
Triple BB,

I am unfamiliar with the Colorado Legislation which allows their G&F Department to not offer nonresident hunting licenses in certain areas where resident hunting pressures are excessive or quota's too low. What legislation is it that you are referring?

Thanks again for all of your comments.
 
>Triple BB,
>
>I am unfamiliar with the Colorado
>Legislation which allows their G&F
>Department to not offer nonresident
>hunting licenses in certain areas
>where resident hunting pressures are
>excessive or quota's too low.
> What legislation is it
>that you are referring?
>
>Thanks again for all of your
>comments.

Take a look at their big game regs. Non residents aren't allowed to put in for desert big horn. For mtn goat, sheep and moose, non residents aren't allowed to apply for certain area's and can be limited to specific seasons. We have some moose and sheep area's that are almost impossible to draw as a resident with maximum points. If we had Colorado type legislation, the G & F could eliminate non resident tags or decrease the number available same as Colorado does and increase resident draw odds. Other than our scumbag outfitters, I'd doubt you'd find any residents opposed to such legislation/regulations.
 
I agree with the last post totally. Non-residents outnumber the residents where I hunt and to me it is really disappointing. There are too many hunters, so cut down, but cut non-resident licenses before you cut resident licenses.

huntervirg
 
Triple B. I'm one of your "scumbag outfitters" and I've voiced the same concerns to my legislators and Game and Fish. I'm 0 for 30 for sheep applications and would sure like to get one before I die. I even went to Cheyenne and asked if I could apply for a sheep as a nonresident, knowing that there are several areas in which I could get a license with my full preference points. The Game and Fish said they would prosecute me immediately if I applied as a nonresident, even though they'd be getting more than a thousand extra dollars for the same license.

I'd like Game and Fish to put the licenses on a "sliding scale" so that residents NEVER have worse odds than a nonresident of drawing a license. It happens all the time for deer, elk and antelope as well as the other species. They said it is impossible to figure the odds and do that, but we've got high school kids that could build that computer program.

Don't convince yourself that all outfitters are alike. Some of us care a lot more about the wildlife resource than we do about the short-sighted ideas expressed by others.
 
I was just wondering....how did the meeting turn out in Kemmerer earlier this month???? Anybody know???
 
I didn't go to Jack Hone's meeting but did go to the Game and fish meeting for public input in Kemmerer. I said my 2 cents and the Game and Fish did wake me up to one fact and I don't think a lot of people realize. So here goes the scenerio for limited quota hunting. 2005 hunting season region G had 2390 hunters.
Okay-lets limit it to 2000 hunters both Res and Non-Res.
Now if you are a landowner and can prove deer range on your ground for so many days out of the year you are allowed 2 tags per 160 acreas whether you are a land owner or Non Resident landowner. So say they are 750 landowners that are eligible which I'm pretty sure they are. 1500 tags are GUARANTEED EVERY YEAR to those people. 500 tags left over to the rest of us both resident and Non-Resident. 25% of those are NON-RES tag and the rest resident. GOOD LUCK ON THE DRAW CAUSE YOUR GONNA NEED IT! Mike Eastman and the boys will be hunting every year cause they got the money to pay those private land tags and us poor boys will be ##### out of luck.
I was hoping this wasn't gonna happen for another 10 years because I'd be too old to get up in the hard access areas but its coming sooner than expected. I wanted them to just make it 4 point or better for just a couple years as experimental till the herd comes back because in my opinion from what I've seen it the drought that killed 80% of the deer off. And from the records I keep and have seen and read in the archive newspapers for the last 35 years the deer herd goes up and down every 9 years. Last year was the first time in 35 years I didn't kill a buck over 20 inches--needless to say I didn't shoot one neither.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-03-05 AT 03:02AM (MST)[p]Longun,
First of all it wasn't my meeting. It was a public meeting for concerned hunters to talk about the declining deer herds.
Next topic, 2390 hunters in region G is an estimate. Truth is, there's no way to know the true number of hunters in a certain area or the number of deer harvested with the current system.
The land owner issue is a way for the Game and Fish to turn hunters away from limited quota. Limited quota works in other areas of the state. If you have ever spent time in hunt area 134 or the southern end of 135 during deer season maybe you'd understand the issue,to accessible,to many hunters and no deer. The Game and Fish classify deer herds in December, therefore they are counting mostly migratory deer.They have no clue as to how many resident deer inhabit these areas but allow an unlimited number of hunters to hunt them. Truth is you can not manage wildlife by flying over it once a year.
The four points or better idea has been turned down in these areas by certain members of Game and Fish since 1990.This seem's kind of strange to me because I recently attended the season setting meetings in Casper and in other area's of the state they seem to have no problem approving seasons to improve quality and quantity.

As for the drought killing 80% of the deer, here's my opinion.
1990, a month long deer season and a total of nine permits per hunter.
1991, twenty eight day season and another handful of permits per hunter.
1992,1993, I think was more of the same. I can't seem to remember, but I do know this, try to get the harvest estimates from 90 to 93 for the wyoming range deer herd and you will be told by the Game and Fish "we know what you don't want to do with those" and then your sent around in circles.
My point is, thousand's of deer were killed in those season's and with more access and more hunters every year since, the resident herds in 134 and 135 have never had a chance to rebound. The people who grew up around here know we use to have killer winter's and drought, fewer hunter's and more deer.
 
JD,

I agree with most of your comments-but I just want people to know about those landowner tags and how it will drastically drop their chances of ever getting a deer tag on a draw system even with a point system. I know they should fly more than just once a winter but thats how they get their estimate big buck count. I'm currently building BLM drift fence right now and the deer are still dying even with the snow gone. Maybe your SFW boys need to help fund the animal count like some of the oil companies have in northern Sublette.Momey is the big issue and who's got the greenback's are trying to save their interests.
There isn't a golden bullet and I know something has to be done I'm just an average Mule deer Hunter and I don't hunt for the money business end of it.
 

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