Archery Advice/Question

[ADDICT]

First archery elk tag and I've shot the 100 gr Trophy Ridge Undertakers at deer and love them. I want to know what the experts think of the following scenario: (I shoot a PSE X-Force with 200gr radial carbon x-weaves and it's flying at just below 350fps)

I shot a big 6x6 at 50 yds yesterday and the arrow flight, hit, location etc. looked perfect. As the bull ran out, I saw the fletchings sticking out of his side and I watched him for 150yds through the pines before I lost him. By the arrow, I figured that it must have penetrated deep but not a clean pass-through.

After an hour, I began tracking and found very little blood. Infact, his tracks were easier to follow in the pine needles than blood so I got nervous. After 30 min we found the trail but it was very light. Dime sized drops every step and then I found my arrow. I was covered in blood from the tip till about 10" up the shaft and the blades were in-tact, functional and fully-deployed. After the arrow the blood totally stopped and after a solid day of hiking I had nothing. By the lack of blood, I figure I must've stuck him too far forward And smashed his shoulder bone.

QUESTIONS:
Shouldn't that arrow have pentrated better than that or are elk that tough? Has anyone had experience with these broadheads on elk and are they too light weight? What about rib bones?

Could/should a broadhead be able to penetrate and kill an elk in let's say a spine or shoulder balde shot?

With ten inches of shoulder penetration and the bull ran with the arrow in his side or shoulder for over 150 yds do you think he could survive that?

I ask because I am heading back out all of next week and I will look for buzzards in the hole he ran into and I also want to switch to fixed broadheads this weekend if necessary before I blow another great elk opportunity.

Congrats to everyone on their elk this year and thanks in advance for FEEDBACK!

 

[mtnrunner260]

ADDICT,
I think as long as you didn't hit bone the arrow should have buried up to the fletchings at least. I am no expert at this by any means but I think you may be better served by using a heavier arrow, that will give you more KE which means better peneteration though you will lose some FPS. But at 350 you definatly have some to spare. If you do switch to a fixed blade I'd suggest the G5 Montec. My dad just had one pass through a 6x6 this weekend and he is pulling 62 lbs. But with a 430 grain arrow.
Hope this helps and best of luck.

 

[ADDICT]

Thanks!

 

[Silentstalker]

I agree, Switch to a heavier arrow. Somewhere around 400+ grains. Think of it like throwing a straw really fast or a weighted dart really fast. Which one will penetrate better? A light object loses it's energy faster. Go to a cut on contact broadhead too. I shoot the Montec and have had great success with it. Have not had an elk go out of sight yet! Proper shot placement is huge too. Take close shots at huge animals and bury it right behind the shoulder! Good luck!

Chad

 

[CAelknuts]

Addict, since you're asking for opinions and advice I'll say that before I even read the entire post, I had a pretty good idea of where you were headed. You've got a setup that sounds like it is perfect for 3D shooting, very fast and flat. The problem comes in when you try to hunt with that, as very fast setups tend to be hard to tune for good arrow flight with broadheads. They also have less kinetic energy than setups with heavier arrows flying at lower speeds. While these setups can work well on the range, they often don't do so well in the very different conditions of hunting in the field.

While we have no sure idea where you hit your elk, from what you describe it could have easily been in the shoulder blade, in which case the bull will probably recover just fine. If you did hit him in the shoulder, you didn't get 10" of penetration in all liklihood. My buddies and I have killed elk with broadheads in their shoulderblades and they were perfectly healthy.

On the other hand, if you are sure you got 10" of penetration, regardless of where you hit him, you very likely killed that elk and you should spend the rest of your time finding him, or what is left of him. Ask youself if you really feel it is ethical to go out and try to kill a different bull (even if it is legal) when you've likely already killed a great bull. I'm only saying this because you asked for opinions, but I think you have an obligation to the elk you shot to do everything in your power to find him before you go chasing anything else.

We have no way of knowing how much experience you have archery hunting, but as most archers gain some practical hunting experience, they quickly get past the speed at all costs approach and go with a balanced setup that makes compromises to find a good balance that hunts well. An arrow that flies somewhere between 250-300 FPS is plenty, and you'll likely be at the uppper end of that range with your bow even after going to a heavier arrow and broadhead combination. I'd suggest going with a fixed blade such as a Thunderhead, Muzzy, Magnus or Montec, and put that on a shaft that will give you a total arrow weight of at least 425 grains, and preferably at least 450 grains. For elk, you'll find that something like that is much more practical.

Elk aren't deer, they're much bigger and tougher. You need an archery setup that is up to the task. I'm not saying my own setup is the best, but to give you an idea of what does work; I shoot a 65 pound bow that gives my 455 grain arrow a speed of 260 FPS. I top that with a 100 grain Thunderhead and have had complete pass-throughs on elk and moose with it. In my opinion, your setup isn't designed well for elk hunting.

 

[ADDICT]

Good feedback. I appreciate the info. I found two dime-sized drops of blood in two hours of working a 400yd radius with four guys. I don't have a clue wherelese to look. I'm heading out there again tonight so I should smell him or find the crows if he's down. TRUST ME, I WOULDN'T HAVE SHOT HIM IF I WASN'T WILLING/PLANNING ON TAGGING HIM. HE'S MY FIRST CHOICE BULL AND IF HE'S DEAD AND ROTTEN, I'LL STILL TAG HIM!

 

[need4x4]

You can find him. Let us know what happens.

 

[bearman]

Look for a live elk also, I have seen people hit them bad and still be running weeks later. Good luck, don't give up.

 

[Lambo]

sorry to hear that you havent found your bull. If I am understanding you correctly. you shoot the PSE X-force, with a 200 grain arrow, with a 100 grain broadhead: so the total weight is about 300 grains. if that is true, and with that being said lets look at your overal kinetic energy. you can calculate this with the following formula.
Velocity x Velocity X weight divided by 450240.
So according to the information given we will times V x V xW.
Or 350 x 350 x 300 wich is 36750000. Then divide it by the constant 450240 and that will give you a total of 81.6 lbs of kinetic energy. Hard to believe that with this set up you did not get beter penetration. However, there must be some other explanation as to why more wasnt achieved. Perhaps the heavy shoulder bone was hit ( such as was already mentioned as an explanation)Or mayby your arrow was not properly tuned to your settup I liked the analogy of tryng to throw a pingpong ball versus a marble. the pingpong ball will quickly lose energy at the longer distances while the marble wont lose it as quickly. something about mass in motion, if that helps. As far as the broadhead ( undertaker) I dont know much about them other than they are a new piston point type expandable. very likely even with your kintic energy you lost a great deal of penetration power upon impact and the blades deployed.
Maybe the others are right, perhaps you should shoot a heavier arrow and a replaceable or cut on impact broadhead. I currently shoot a 400 grain arrow at 291 fps. now that to me is a fast and heavier arrow, in which I have not had any problem achieving complete passthroughs on deer, elk (including large bulls, and my once-in-a-lifetime bull moose. Any way I hope that this info helps and that you will now exhaust every effort to find your bull. good luck and happy trails
Lambo

 

[dfowler08x]

IMO I agree with other MMers in that you are using too light of an arrow. In this day and age alot of bowhunters want to have the fastest bow out there. (Not saying you are on of those bowhunters). It doesnt matter how fast the arrow gets there, just how much damage it does when it gets there. Im glad Oregon has a law that you can only use fixed blade broadheads. I think they deflect alot easier than fixed blade. The arrow must have hit bone because you still should of had a pass thru. Good Luck in finding your bull..

Dave

 

[logslinger]

Sorry to hear about your elk. I tend to agree with everyone else that the arrow is a little light but I do think that you must have hit the shoulder. Myself and a hunting buddy both used the Rage expandable this year. Although neither one of us got full penetration, both hit the off shoulder on a quartering away animal, we both had tremendous blood trails that only lasted for about 50yards to two very dead elk. The entrance holes were huge compared to all of the other elk I have killed with fixed blade broadheads.

 

[CAelknuts]

Addict, I'll give you a great story about a bull that a friend of mine had a very similar situation with. This was clear back in 1992, in New Mexico. I was hunting in unit 15, and while working on calling in this bull one day, all of a sudden a hunter crawls up next to me with his recurve. He was quiet and polite when I looked at him with a WTF sort of expression. He asked me if I'd seen a big 7x7 bull, as he shot one the night before and was looking for it. No blood and he was having a devil of a time figuring out where it went after he shot it. he told me right then that his season was over, it was just a matter of whether he'd find his bull or not.

Long story short, he looked for that bull for five days before finding it. He had hit it too far back, and it wandered over 1/2 mile before laying down and dying. Obviously, it was way past the point where any meat was recoverable when he found it, but a bear was feeding on the carcass, so he took some pictures and cut the antlers off while trying not to puke. He then went to town and bought a bear tag. The next morning he killed a bear at less than 10 yards while sitting in a tree stand over the carcass.

He ended up with a bull that ranks fairly high in Pope and Young, as well as a Pope and Young bear.

I have always respected that guy since our first meeting and I'm proud to consider him a friend to this day. His ethics are beyond reproach and he leads by example.

Good luck finding that bull.

 

[Hazmat]

Take your dog grouse hunting in the area where you last saw your bull. Dogs seem to be able to find things we tend to walk past...and grouse are tasty...

 

[ADDICT]

Thanks again guys! I'm leaving in 4 hours and will let you all know what I come up with! I sincerely hope the wound was superficial and the bull makes it!

 

[stinkystomper]

I just posted about my dads bull a little while ago. He just killed it in 15 in nm and we were just talking about this same issue. He used to shoot an old hoyt that would crank out the old aluminum arrow at 250 fps with 160 grain thunder heads. That was back in the day. do they still make 160's. Anyways he ended up killing 4 different cows with that setup. One cow was at 45 yards. She lunged when he shot and he hit her in the hind quarter. The arrow blew completely through and she died from a bleeding artery 50 yards later. The bull he just shot was with his new mathews safari at 114 lbs draw weight shooting either a 750 or 800 grain arrow with a 125 grain thunderhead at 320 fps. The hit was 8" back from the crease behind the shoulder and a double lunger. The arrow blew through a rib on entrance and buried in a rib on the other side. The arrow didn't even make an exit on the other side. This bow was suppose to be designed for elephants in africa. What's the deal. Are these newer bows substandard?

 

[Silentstalker]

My guess is your dad's arrow did not completely penetrate due to 2 things.

#1 distance. If I remember right it was shot at around 60 yards. Arrows lose their energy fairly quick.

#2 Ribs, I bet he centered both of them. That put's a hurt on Kinetic Energy too.

Either way, congrats on his bull!

 

[c3]

Good luck finding your bull. I had a similar thing happen after I made a poor shot high and back on a nice 6x6 in 2004 and spent 15 days searching for him to no avail. I had another 5 or 8 opportunities to shoot another elk, but passed. Many people may say I'm crazy, but if I draw blood that's my bull for the year and I'm done.

Another question though. Is that arrow a PSE Radial X-weave 200 or an actual 200 grain arrow with nock, vanes and insert?

The 200 labled X-weaves are 7.5 grains per inch and a 400 spine. It would make for a total arrow weight of about 380 grains at 28" with your 100 grain BH. I believe that is still too light, but would make more sense than a 300 grain total arrow weight. Your arrow would have to be only about 24" long with the 0.500" spine to get to only 300 grains total with those model arrows.

I'd like to hear the exact arrow weight, length and spine before passing judgement on the arrow-BH combo being off

Cheers,
Pete

 

[birdbuster]

I know of a bull that was double-lunged this year that was still alive and moving very well 9 hours later. I know he was double-lunged because he was recovered after a second shot. High hit = little blood and possibly living bull. You still should be looking for only that bull until you find him healthy or dead. It sucks but that's how it should be.

 

[ADDICT]

c3--

You're right. They are the 200 series not 200 grains! I bet that eases everyone's mind!

 

[ADDICT]

oh yeah, 29" arrows.

 

[ADDICT]

BTW-- No luck on the bull. No sign of anything. We hiked up the drainage and down the drainage for three hours and didn't see/smell anything. Hope he made it!

 

[Lambo]

Sorry to hear that you didnt find him, but that is part of hunting. Sometimes things like this just happen, and mabey he survived. You just never know. Sounds like you will be able to take away some terrific memories of your hunt.
Lambo

 

[WapitiBob]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-24-08 AT 04:57PM (MST)[p]I shot my bull last week.
65# Conquest 4
Axis 400's with Spitfire XP heads @ 100gr.
400 gr. total weight
shooting maybe 270 fps and about 62 ft/lbs of KE
shot the bull at 20 yards.

I had 8"/10" of fletch end of arrow sticking out when he turned and ran. Broadhead went thru front side rib making a 1 1/2" entrance hole, stopped in the off side shoulder blade. Never making an exit hole.

He didn't go 100 yards and fell over.

You're shooting plenty of KE. My guess is shot placement or broadhead. I have seen noticeably quicker deaths when I use the spitfires but there are a lot of good heads out there.