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Archery book cliffs elk

 
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Elkslayer2015
(68 posts)
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Aug-01-16, 
10:29 PM (MST)
"Archery book cliffs elk"

19 days and counting down then my first limited entry hunt begins and I have 28 days off can't wait with family and friends and a lot of good bulls on camera hopfully they stick around.wish the best of luck to everyone this season.

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  Table of Contents  

 Subject   Author   Message Date   ID 
 RE: Archery bo...  Servehim      Aug-02-16   1 
  RE: Archery bo...  Elkslayer20...      Aug-02-16   2 
 RE: Archery bo...  _gloomis      Aug-02-16   3 
  RE: Archery bo...  stillwaitin      Aug-02-16   4 
   RE: Archery bo...  Elkslayer20...      Aug-04-16   5 
    RE: Archery bo...  stillwaitin      Aug-04-16   7 
  RE: Archery bo...  Elkslayer20...      Aug-04-16   6 
   RE: Archery bo...  stillwaitin      Sep-11-16   8 
    RE: Archery bo...  Elkslayer20...      Sep-19-16   9 
     RE: Archery bo...  Shadow      Sep-19-16   10 
      RE: Archery bo...  Deerlove      Sep-20-16   11 
      RE: Archery bo...  BuglesNGrun...      Sep-20-16   12 
       RE: Archery bo...  Zeke      Sep-20-16   13 
        RE: Archery bo...  Broadside_S...      Sep-20-16   14 
         RE: Archery bo...  Elkslayer20...      Sep-20-16   16 
       RE: Archery bo...  Shadow      Sep-20-16   15 
        RE: Archery bo...  BuglesNGrun...      Sep-20-16   17 
         RE: Archery bo...  Deerlove      Sep-20-16   18 
          RE: Archery bo...  Broadside_S...      Sep-20-16   19 
           RE: Archery bo...  BuglesNGrun...      Sep-20-16   20 
            RE: Archery bo...  Deerlove      Sep-20-16   21 
             RE: Archery bo...  TheDudeAbid...      Oct-03-16   22 
              RE: Archery bo...  Deerlove      Oct-03-16   23 
               RE: Archery bo...  TheDudeAbid...      Oct-03-16   24 
                RE: Archery bo...  Coyote_chas...      Oct-05-16   25 
                 RE: Archery bo...  stuckduck      Oct-05-16   26 
                  RE: Archery bo...  Shadow      Oct-05-16   27 
                   RE: Archery bo...  Bowdeadly      Oct-06-16   28 
                    RE: Archery bo...  Hawkeye      Oct-06-16   29 

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Servehim
(899 posts)
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Aug-02-16, 
00:05 AM (MST)
1. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

Roadless?

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Elkslayer2015
(68 posts)
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Aug-02-16, 
06:17 AM (MST)
2. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

Roaded area.

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_gloomis
(248 posts)
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Aug-02-16, 
08:07 AM (MST)
3. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

Hunted the books with my muzzy last year. You will have a blast.

Good luck.

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stillwaitin
(308 posts)
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Aug-02-16, 
11:04 AM (MST)
4. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

Nice, I have the Muzzy tag. So maybe we will cross paths. The Books is an amazing area and I am stoke to have my own tag in pocket this year. Good luck, save one for me!

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Elkslayer2015
(68 posts)
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Aug-04-16, 
10:39 AM (MST)
5. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-16 AT 10:40 AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-16 AT 10:40 AM (MST)

17 days and counting down stillwaitin,yeah buddy its a amazing area i cant wait ill get with you when where done and let you know where there at ive been out there almost every weekend we have about 15 bulls on camera in just one area then we have smaller heards of bulls on other cameras its like where in the honey hole but it could all change when they start shedding there horns.good luck to you bud hope you smoke a big bull.

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stillwaitin
(308 posts)
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Aug-04-16, 
11:14 AM (MST)
7. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

Sounds good man, we are headed back next weekend to check our cams and do some more looking. Good luck and hope to talk to you and see how you do!

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Elkslayer2015
(68 posts)
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Aug-04-16, 
10:41 AM (MST)
6. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

gloomis thanks bud did you kill last year?

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stillwaitin
(308 posts)
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Sep-11-16, 
10:39 PM (MST)
8. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

You have any luck elkslayer?

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Elkslayer2015
(68 posts)
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Sep-19-16, 
08:00 PM (MST)
9. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

Nope seen a lot of Bulls just in the 300 too 310 and where we was at the Bulls didn't start pre rutting till the last three days then it got fun hit a branch on one bull shot over his back and he was about a 330 bull then had a heavy 5 at 15 yards but the wind screwed me up then had a big 7x6 about 50 inches wide and heavy horned in a nasty canyon come in and I drew my bow back and held it for like 2 minutes and couldn't hold it any longer so I tried shooting him in the throat and missed him at ten yards I over compensated my 20 yard pin missed him by a half a inch I had lots of chances at many Bulls most of them wasn't big enough for me but I had a blast I wouldn't trade it for anything.

They just need to let the bow hunters hunt the whole month of September like all the other states do its ridiculous what this state does.Thanks for asking

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Shadow
(430 posts)
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Sep-19-16, 
08:08 PM (MST)
10. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

The archery guys don't even need the whole month, just the right ten days. I'd like to see something like the 12th-22nd or 14th-24th would even be fair, but it's never going to happen so long as early rifle rut "conservation" tags are selling for a mint and the outfitters/special interest groups have their fingers in the pie. Too bad really because the point creep would stabilize a bit as well.

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Deerlove
(4129 posts)
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Sep-20-16, 
10:44 AM (MST)
11. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

So true Shadow!

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BuglesNGrunts
(73 posts)
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Sep-20-16, 
11:03 AM (MST)
12. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

Why exactly do archers "deserve" the prime 10 days of the hunt? simply because of difficulty?

My opinion would be that the majority of rifle hunters wait a decade at the very least for these premium tags, archers are usually less than 10 years (disregarding anomalous outliers). Why do the archers "need" the dates you specified?

I would also be interested in hearing your reasoning for how the point creep would be affected?

I also am struggling to see how "it's ridiculous" the way that utah handles their season dates compared to the other states. Seems to be working when you compare the # of premium units we have, compared to states like nevada, colorado, new mexico, and arizona; whom are known for big bulls but in nowhere near the # of units that utah offers.

Hoping for a civilized discussion, not a pissing match

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Zeke
(8272 posts)
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Sep-20-16, 
11:54 AM (MST)
13. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

It's an "awesome" hunt and great season dates if you make the shot but if you miss then the season date are horrible and the management is "ridiculous". Ya, that sounds about right.

I'm surprised that with the "horrible dates" and "poor management" that anyone would even bothers applying for an archery elk tag in Utah! All the other States do such a better job. TIC

By the way, I can't wait to have my crappy archery elk tag!
Zeke

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Broadside_Shot
(450 posts)
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Sep-20-16, 
12:14 PM (MST)
14. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

I will give my 2 cents on this.

Supply and Demand.

Anytime you hunt an animal when it is most vulnerable with the most efficient weapon, Success goes up.

When success goes up, you then have to issue less tags as to not kill more than you should.

I think this is pretty obvious.

So I think that for the future of hunting, people need to be able to hunt. Not once in a lifetime.

There are only so many animals to go around here in Utah and we have to be able to find that "Happy Place" to keep the stock healthy but allow them to be hunted.

I am a believer in Hunting not Killing and using more primitive weapons to do it.

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Elkslayer2015
(68 posts)
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Sep-20-16, 
01:35 PM (MST)
16. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

This has absolutely nothing with me missing I had fun read my post before you start with me ZEKE I had fun wouldn't trade it for anything it was a hunt of a lifetime for me I've killed a lot of Bulls in my life so it didn't matter that I went home with nothing I could of killed but that's not what it's about.
I was going to put in for this hunt last year but it ended on the 11 of September no rut action there I had three buddy's of mine with that tag and they went home with nothing and they where happy they just wish it would of went another week longer
so maybe what they do is start the hunt on the 1 of September and let it go till the 16 every year that still gives the rifle hunters there really good rut and that gives the archery hunters a little tast of it and the muzzleloader hunters then it's a win win for everybody I rifle hunt elk mostly but I archery deer I would probably archery elk more if it just stayed where it is now.

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Shadow
(430 posts)
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Sep-20-16, 
12:22 PM (MST)
15. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

>Why exactly do archers "deserve" the
>prime 10 days of the
>hunt? simply because of difficulty?
>
>
>My opinion would be that the
>majority of rifle hunters wait
>a decade at the very
>least for these premium tags,
>archers are usually less than
>10 years (disregarding anomalous outliers).
>Why do the archers "need"
>the dates you specified?
>
>I would also be interested in
>hearing your reasoning for how
>the point creep would be
>affected?
>
>I also am struggling to see
>how "it's ridiculous" the way
>that utah handles their season
>dates compared to the other
>states. Seems to be working
>when you compare the #
>of premium units we have,
>compared to states like nevada,
>colorado, new mexico, and arizona;
>whom are known for big
>bulls but in nowhere near
>the # of units that
>utah offers.
>
>Hoping for a civilized discussion, not
>a pissing match


I might ask the same question. Why do the rifle guys need the prime 10 days of the rut? I already know the answer. Big money. As far as helping the point creep, there are three times the number of rifle tags available compared to the archery or muzzleloader, and probably 10 times more applicants. If we have the rifle hunt into October and manage for 70% instead of 100% success, we could allow a lot more tags which would move people through the system quicker by killing less Bulls when they are most vulnerable. I'm not an archery guy so I really have no dog in this fight but I do think that killing the bowls with rifles in the peak of the rut is driven a lot by the conservation tags and the prices they sell for.

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BuglesNGrunts
(73 posts)
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Sep-20-16, 
01:36 PM (MST)
17. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

I'm not sure 3x the # of rifle tags (compared to archery/muzzy) is factual. The Manti this year has:
148-Early rifle (3649 applicants)
99-Late Rifle (890 applicants)
107-Archery (671 applicants)
14-Multi-Season (578 applicants)
65-Muzzy (561 applicants)

Just one unit, I'm too lazy to grab #'s from other units. So total there was 6349 applicants across all hunts, 4539 of which applied for a rifle tag (early or late) for a total of 71.5% of applicants that put in for a rifle tag of some type.

My argument is for the current system and catering to the majority of sportsman, not only the ones who are willing to take a more primitive type of tag to (ideally) draw the most tags possible in a lifetime; which is the most common argument I have heard for archery/muzzy over rifle preference.

I can definitely see how lower success rates would allow for more tags to be issue, and therefore, affect the point creep like you stated.

I don't think they are catering to the auctioned tags (doesn't make sense to me to cater season dates to a select few tags (>10)) it makes more sense that they are trying to cater to the majority of sportsmen, not only the big $'s

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Deerlove
(4129 posts)
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Sep-20-16, 
02:04 PM (MST)
18. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

Why do we need 90% success rates? ie rifle Issue more archery tags to aliviate the back log of apps.

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Broadside_Shot
(450 posts)
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Sep-20-16, 
02:20 PM (MST)
19. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

BuglesNgrunts

I can see that you only have 8 posts so maybe you are new here.

One would think that your logic should be correct but you will find that the State of Utah puts alot of weight on the $$$

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BuglesNGrunts
(73 posts)
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Sep-20-16, 
03:04 PM (MST)
20. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

>BuglesNgrunts
>
>I can see that you only
>have 8 posts so maybe
>you are new here.
>
>One would think that your logic
>should be correct but you
>will find that the State
>of Utah puts alot of
>weight on the $$$

Broadside, longtime fly-on-the-wall decided to finally join these discussions now that I am old enough to think critically instead of just spouting off the first (and often incorrect) assessment or appraisal of a situation.

I get that the state wants to see as much $$ as possible go to conservation (as would 99.999% of hunters). So let's say an average conservation tag sells for, $10,000 (all species average, I could be off on the estimate) just to make the numbers nice and round. 250ish total conservation tags across the state and across the various foundations. That would make $750,000 that the state gets directly for wildlife conservation. (30% of the total goes to the state, the other 70% goes to the foundation that sold the tag for their conservation efforts.

The numbers I quoted in my last post (Manti LE Bull Elk tags alone) generate $123,00 in gross revenue for the state.

I guess I'm having a hard time seeing your point that conservation tags provide the $$$ for the state. It seems to me that the revenue is weighted in the opposite direction that you are suggesting.

However, this could be considered politics so rational thought should be thrown out the window I guess

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Deerlove
(4129 posts)
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Sep-20-16, 
04:36 PM (MST)
21. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

Rifle elk tags in Oct would be worth half, but if you increased the total tags available it might be a wash.

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TheDudeAbides
(51 posts)
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Oct-03-16, 
10:25 AM (MST)
22. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

A system that would decrease the amount of creep would be.

To keep Archery the same.

Move Muzzleloader to December

Move Early Rifle to November and skip a week to the Late Rifle

Allow no one to hunt the rut, because that way we can inflate the amount of tags and deflate the amount of success.

with this decrease population objectives in all units to 4.5 and this will allow more permits.

There is some good in the current Utah system. Old people who are not in shape can have a last hoorah at elk. Casual hunters who are not familiar with elk hunting, can have a chance at a good bull.

The reason why so many people apply for the early rifle is that is it a unique opportunity to hunt elk during the rut in well roaded areas with a rifle.

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Deerlove
(4129 posts)
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Oct-03-16, 
11:05 AM (MST)
23. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

Muzzy to Dec???

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TheDudeAbides
(51 posts)
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Oct-03-16, 
01:09 PM (MST)
24. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

Yes, Snow with a primitive weapon.

It can bring out the inner mountain man in all of us.

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Coyote_chaser
(765 posts)
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Oct-05-16, 
09:55 AM (MST)
25. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

The early rut hunts are a SHOOT not a HUNT. Its a joke.

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stuckduck
(2 posts)
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Oct-05-16, 
04:49 PM (MST)
26. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

^^^^^^ Nailed it!!!

In the long run I really feel sorry for some of the people that draw a LE tag for early riffle. It takes a ton of points to draw and is not much of a hunt at all.. Most are tagged out in less than a day heck lots shoot there Bull at first light.. They are missing out on a lot,the "actual HUNT" 18 points burned in less than 2 hours of hunting.... or should I say shooting. I drew a great LE Archery tag this year and enjoyed the whole activity of it!! 10 days straight afield. The highs and lows of presented and missed opportunities. and the Sweetness of success. Had I had a Riffle tag it would have been in and out and done in no time at all as Its easy to get in on Bulls when they are the most vulnerable. I truly think they are getting the Event of hunting (shooting) but missing out on so much of the activity of what Hunting really is..

My neighbor took many years to draw a good tag rifle tag. took work off for a week.. Poor guy tagged out at first light on opening morning... Now he wont get to hunt that unit for 20 years with the wait and point creep... but hey He got his Bull.. just missed out on the actual hunt!!

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Shadow
(430 posts)
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Oct-05-16, 
10:01 PM (MST)
27. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

I see no reason that all weapons can't get atleast a portion of the rut if Utah would use hard date openers rather than Saturday starts. Why not run the archery from say sept 7-17, muzz from 19th-25 and the rifle hunt from September 26 to October 3rd? Who cares if it falls better with weekends, if I wait so many years to draw, you can bet I'll find the time regardless of the day of the week it starts.

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Bowdeadly
(147 posts)
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Oct-06-16, 
12:27 PM (MST)
28. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

I vote for an archery hunt from September 15th threw October 15. Then the gun hunters can go any other time threw out the year. Lol

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Hawkeye
(2008 posts)
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Oct-06-16, 
04:05 PM (MST)
29. "RE: Archery book cliffs elk"

There is nothing quite like a Utah LE rifle elk tag. Head out in the peak of the rut, call a rutting, drooling herd bull into 30 yards and put him down with your .300 RUM with a 5x-20x power Nightforce scope. Plus, you have a 95% success rate! That type of opportunity generates big $$ in the conservation permits.

Look around the West at what other states are doing. Almost without exception, primitive weapon hunts are scheduled during the peak of the elk rut and rifle hunts typically fall outside the peak of the rut. But once again, we know better in Utah.

And we wonder why our LE hunts are quickly becoming OIL hunts?

-Hawkeye-

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