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Spike hunts on LE units ?

 
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Buccsboy55
(367 posts)
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Oct-12-16, 
05:29 PM (MST)
"Spike hunts on LE units ?"

Just wanted thoughts on the spike hunts on the LE units personally I think it's has really hurt the LE units this need a to stop asap just my 2 cents.

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  Table of Contents  

 Subject   Author   Message Date   ID 
 RE: Spike hunt...  Shadow      Oct-12-16   1 
  RE: Spike hunt...  Buccsboy55      Oct-12-16   2 
   RE: Spike hunt...  desertpoint...      Oct-12-16   3 
    RE: Spike hunt...  elkassassin      Oct-12-16   4 
     RE: Spike hunt...  jakechr811      Oct-12-16   5 
    RE: Spike hunt...  Zeke      Oct-13-16   8 
     RE: Spike hunt...  Buglelk      Nov-01-16   11 
      RE: Spike hunt...  deerkiller      Nov-06-16   16 
 RE: Spike hunt...  BrowningRage      Oct-13-16   6 
  RE: Spike hunt...  notags2      Oct-13-16   7 
   RE: Spike hunt...  Shadow      Oct-13-16   9 
    RE: Spike hunt...  Tikka      Oct-13-16   10 
     RE: Spike hunt...  Coyote_chas...      Nov-02-16   12 
      RE: Spike hunt...  Shadow      Nov-02-16   13 
 RE: Spike hunt...  Elkslayer20...      Nov-06-16   14 
  RE: Spike hunt...  one_dryboot      Nov-06-16   15 
   RE: Spike hunt...  Elkslayer20...      Nov-06-16   17 
    RE: Spike hunt...  Vanilla      Nov-07-16   18 
  RE: Spike hunt...  mntman      Nov-09-16   20 
 RE: Spike hunt...  why      Nov-09-16   19 
  RE: Spike hunt...  woodruffhun...      Nov-10-16   21 
   RE: Spike hunt...  WapitiBob      Nov-10-16   22 
    RE: Spike hunt...  El_Matador      Nov-15-16   23 
     RE: Spike hunt...  slamdunk      Nov-15-16   24 
      RE: Spike hunt...  Horsecorn      Nov-16-16   25 
       RE: Spike hunt...  Shadow      Nov-16-16   26 
       RE: Spike hunt...  slamdunk      Nov-16-16   27 
        RE: Spike hunt...  PleaseDear      Nov-17-16   28 
         RE: Spike hunt...  Horsecorn      Nov-17-16   29 
          RE: Spike hunt...  slamdunk      Nov-17-16   30 
           RE: Spike hunt...  Horsecorn      Nov-17-16   31 
            RE: Spike hunt...  Dconcrete      Nov-17-16   32 
             RE: Spike hunt...  Shadow      Nov-17-16   33 
              RE: Spike hunt...  Horsecorn      Nov-17-16   34 
              RE: Spike hunt...  slamdunk      Nov-17-16   35 
               RE: Spike hunt...  Dconcrete      Nov-18-16   36 

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Shadow
(430 posts)
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Oct-12-16, 
05:40 PM (MST)
1. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

There have been spike hunts on LE units since the beginning. Wasatch Manti Fishlake all used to be any bull units and were converted to LE/spike units 25 years ago and all three have been good producers of large Bulls at certain times so I don't think spike hunting hurts them in the least. What does hurt the quality is the number of big bull tags and the cream of the crop Bulls being hammered with the most effective weapon during the peak of the rut. There's a reason that most of the early rifle LE harvest rates are in the 90%+ range. Too many tags issued equals lower quality bulls to be had. There's a couple threads running right now talking about this very thing. Smaller units with spike hunting like the Monroe, Pahvant, and your Oquir? Well now that's an entirely different subject due to much lower elk numbers overall.

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Buccsboy55
(367 posts)
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Oct-12-16, 
05:46 PM (MST)
2. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-16 AT 05:46 PM (MST)

Ya I had the oquirrh stansburry muzzy tag and it was flat out re damn diculous the muzzy and rifle seasons need to be swapped

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desertpointbrian
(1075 posts)
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Oct-12-16, 
06:32 PM (MST)
3. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

The rut was better and the elk were more active during the muzzy hunts the past few years. Why would you want to swap it.

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elkassassin
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Oct-12-16, 
07:22 PM (MST)
4. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

It's TOTAL BS!

As Money Hungry as Our DWR is!

They Still Can't Figure out BIG Bulls are Worth Way More Money Than PISSCUTTER Bulls!

Why TF Would You Slaughter Your Future Herd?

JFP!!!

She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words

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jakechr811
(16 posts)
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Oct-12-16, 
09:08 PM (MST)
5. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

They need to reduce the late tags. The big Bulls are all grouped up with no where to hide. There has always been rifle hunts during the Rut. but since the implementation of late tags each unit has slowly dwindled

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Zeke
(8272 posts)
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Oct-13-16, 
03:47 PM (MST)
8. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

>The rut was better and the
>elk were more active during
>the muzzy hunts the past
>few years. Why would you
>want to swap it.

Totally correct and there are still plenty of quality bulls around for that hunt. A couple friends have done very well on the muzzleloader elk hunt on the Wasatch in the past few years.

I certainly don't know about every elk unit but personally I'd rather have a muzzleloader tag on the Wasatch. Fewer people and screaming elk, what's not to love?

Zeke

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Buglelk
(112 posts)
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Nov-01-16, 
01:38 PM (MST)
11. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

I had a muzzleloader tag this year on the Wasatch and the first 2 days were great when there were not a million deer hunters out.
Once Wednesday hit the bulls were not screaming much anymore. It was a JOKE. To have the muzzleloader deer hunt going at the same time is just not fair in my opinion. Places I had been earlier that had tons of elk there was a hunter on every ridge starting the deer hunt. To wait 13 years for the tag and then having to deal with so many deer hunters is just sad. I ended up settling for a small small 6X5 because I was afraid I would not get a quality elk. I am going to find places outside of Utah now. If I knew how bad it was I would have waited a few more years for a rifle tag and not wasted the muzzleloader tag.

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deerkiller
(330 posts)
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Nov-06-16, 
06:00 PM (MST)
16. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

>I had a muzzleloader tag this
>year on the Wasatch and
>the first 2 days were
>great when there were not
>a million deer hunters out.
>
>Once Wednesday hit the bulls were
>not screaming much anymore. It
>was a JOKE. To have
>the muzzleloader deer hunt going
>at the same time is
>just not fair in my
>opinion. Places I had been
>earlier that had tons of
>elk there was a hunter
>on every ridge starting the
>deer hunt. To wait 13
>years for the tag and
>then having to deal with
>so many deer hunters is
>just sad. I ended up
>settling for a small small
>6X5 because I was afraid
>I would not get a
>quality elk. I am going
>to find places outside of
>Utah now. If I knew
>how bad it was I
>would have waited a few
>more years for a rifle
>tag and not wasted the
>muzzleloader tag.

Have you never had a muzzy deer tag before on a LE elk unit? So you weren't a "bother" to someone else's LE elk tag that they have waited a long time for? We all have to deal with it. We are all aware of the other seasons taking place in the same areas when we apply for the tags. It's 'fair'. No one made you apply for that tag

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BrowningRage
(3068 posts)
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Oct-13-16, 
11:17 AM (MST)
6. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

It's a tough time of year to be hunting elk anyway... I saw a ton of elk in the Book Cliffs during my archery and muzzy deer hunts, including a half dozen spikes that I could have killed with a rifle; but I talked to some guys that I pointed in the right direction- they didn't even see an elk.

But, I have to think that spike hunts technically reduce the number of future mature bulls, and in that respect I would agree with you to some extent. The DWR wants the money, plain and simple.

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24

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notags2
(664 posts)
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Oct-13-16, 
02:46 PM (MST)
7. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

Elk ass in 100 percent correct !!!!!!

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Shadow
(430 posts)
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Oct-13-16, 
04:28 PM (MST)
9. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

And I would agree except for the fact that the Wasatch, Manti and Fishlake have had spike hunts going ever since the biggest bull on any of those 3 units was a five point rag horn in the early 90's and each has somehow produced giant Bulls since. For example, if the Manti had 1000 yearling Bulls and a 30% harvest on spikes, then wouldn't that leave 700 Bulls to grow to branch antlered next year to be pretty well untouchable? Those are just hypothetical numbers of course but the point is, spike hunting isn't hurting the big bull #'s or size nearly as much as demand and the shear number of big bull tags issued. That and the fact there isn't a big bull anywhere in the state that isn't being watched 24/7, trail cammed or pimped out. Myself, I don't much care for 4-5 year old units or some of the drastic tag increases but I also understand there needs to be some balance between opportunity and quantity vs quality.

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Tikka
(1393 posts)
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Oct-13-16, 
05:08 PM (MST)
10. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

>And I would agree except for
>the fact that the Wasatch,
>Manti and Fishlake have had
>spike hunts going ever since
>the biggest bull on any
>of those 3 units was
>a five point rag horn
>in the early 90's and
>each has somehow produced giant
>Bulls since. For example, if
>the Manti had 1000 yearling
>Bulls and a 30% harvest
>on spikes, then wouldn't that
>leave 700 Bulls to grow
>to branch antlered next year
>to be pretty well untouchable?
>Those are just hypothetical numbers
>of course but the point
>is, spike hunting isn't hurting
>the big bull #'s or
>size nearly as much as
>demand and the shear number
>of big bull tags issued.
>That and the fact there
>isn't a big bull anywhere
>in the state that isn't
>being watched 24/7, trail cammed
>or pimped out. Myself, I
>don't much care for 4-5
>year old units or some
>of the drastic tag increases
>but I also understand there
>needs to be some balance
>between opportunity and quantity vs
>quality.

X2 on the being watched 24/7...

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Coyote_chaser
(765 posts)
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Nov-02-16, 
11:14 AM (MST)
12. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

When the archery hunters complain about crowds and poor hunting, no one cares. As soon as a few rifle guys or muzzy guys have a poor hunt the world has come to an end and the DWR needs to fix it. LOL

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Shadow
(430 posts)
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Nov-02-16, 
08:45 PM (MST)
13. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

>When the archery hunters complain about
>crowds and poor hunting, no
>one cares. As soon as
>a few rifle guys or
>muzzy guys have a poor
>hunt the world has come
>to an end and the
>DWR needs to fix it.
>LOL


Maybe it's just a deaf ear situation since the archery guys cry their eyes out constantly.

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Elkslayer2015
(68 posts)
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Nov-06-16, 
10:09 AM (MST)
14. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

Well to answer your question out in the book cliffs I say no the problem is too many tags poor mngnt,Me and my buddy's drew out LE archery elk,spent about a month and a half out there with 13 trail cameras and had about 50 bulls on camera average was 300-320 only seen 4 bulls 340 or better,and the other 7 hunters out there had their camera's up and they saw the same thing just wasn't seeing what we should of,the biggest bull in are area that was killed went 325.I talked to 4 rifle hunters out there when I went to pick up my trailer and two of them came home with nothing 18 years and not filling your tag that's frustrating they only saw two bulls over 320 but I dont't know how hard they hunted,but I know we hunted hard and I spent 28 days there and I came home with tag soup I had a bull last day of the hunt and we called him in and I missed totally my fault I could of killed many bulls but I already killed a bull that was 325 on general,and I wasn't going to settle for anything less had a fun hunt and got to learn the area really well but I was frustrated with the qualty of bulls that where out there.

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one_dryboot
(4476 posts)
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Nov-06-16, 
11:07 AM (MST)
15. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"


What is really going to hurt is killing all the cows the last few years. Give it a few more years and you will really see the effects.

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Elkslayer2015
(68 posts)
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Nov-06-16, 
09:09 PM (MST)
17. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

I agree with you on that I seen more bulls than I seen cows.

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Vanilla
(886 posts)
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Nov-07-16, 
08:59 PM (MST)
18. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

My two brothers had Wasatch muzzy tags in 2013 and 2014, the last two years the season mirrored the muzzy general deer hunt and before they started the LE muzzy hunt a couple days earlier. I can say that in 11 combined days of hunting in those two years we saw less than 5 total deer hunters. I was worried that the concurrent hunts would mess things up. It didn't at all for us.

I don't mind the spike tags on LE units. I may get lucky and draw one of those tags in my lifetime. And cow tags are becoming harder to draw too. I want opportunities to hunt elk. Of course, if negative impacts are observed, you can always modify things. The rifle Monroe spike hunt was ended, just as an example.

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mntman
(3796 posts)
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Nov-09-16, 
12:36 PM (MST)
20. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

>Well to answer your question out
>in the book cliffs I
>say no the problem is
>too many tags poor mngnt,Me
>and my buddy's drew out
>LE archery elk,spent about a
>month and a half out
>there with 13 trail cameras
>and had about 50 bulls
>on camera average was 300-320
>only seen 4 bulls 340
>or better,and the other 7
>hunters out there had their
>camera's up and they saw
>the same thing just wasn't
>seeing what we should of,the
>biggest bull in are area
>that was killed went 325.I
>talked to 4 rifle hunters
>out there when I went
>to pick up my trailer
>and two of them came
>home with nothing 18 years
>and not filling your tag
>that's frustrating they only saw
>two bulls over 320 but
>I dont't know how hard
>they hunted,but I know we
>hunted hard and I spent
>28 days there and I
>came home with tag soup
>I had a bull last
>day of the hunt and
>we called him in and
>I missed totally my fault
>I could of killed many
>bulls but I already killed
>a bull that was 325
>on general,and I wasn't going
>to settle for anything less
>had a fun hunt and
>got to learn the area
>really well but I was
>frustrated with the qualty of
>bulls that where out there.
>

Understand not arguing what you seen, but isn't the age objective 6 years old out there? There will not be as many big bulls if the UDWR age objective is 6. I am not postitive on the target age out there, just going off memory.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"

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why
(262 posts)
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Nov-09-16, 
10:18 AM (MST)
19. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

spike hunts have took there toll on the book cliffs we have all seen the quality go down every year .sad to see a great unit go to marginal .

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woodruffhunter
(3176 posts)
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Nov-10-16, 
02:04 PM (MST)
21. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

Read the cat's post AGAIN!! It is not hard to figure out!!

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WapitiBob
(4049 posts)
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Nov-10-16, 
03:25 PM (MST)
22. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

Yea, it's not hard to figure out...

"with 13 trail cameras and had about 50 bulls on camera average was 300-320 only seen 4 bulls 340 or better,and the other 7 hunters out there had their camera's up and they saw the same thing just wasn't seeing what we should of.."

As long as the State allows this level of scrutiny to continue, your herds can only go down, and deservedly so.

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El_Matador
(285 posts)
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Nov-15-16, 
04:39 PM (MST)
23. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

Spike/LE has got to be the worst possible way to manage these herds. Many of the bulls that survive spike season will never grow much bigger than 300". It's just genetics. All those bulls are likely to die of old age somewhere because they're not good enough to put a LE tag on.

The way to manage for quality AND quantity is to do a 1st and 2nd season. 1st season during the rut with relatively few tags, 2nd season in October with more tags. This will allow those bulls with poor to average genetics to be harvested.

My vote would be to give out 5x as many tags so people would actually shoot a 280 bull. So many entitled people these days feel like they deserve a 350" bull simply because they waited on the couch for a bunch of years.

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slamdunk
(6197 posts)
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Nov-15-16, 
08:33 PM (MST)
24. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

>Many of
>the bulls that survive spike
>season will never grow much
>bigger than 300". It's
>just genetics.

Nothing could be further from the truth.
90+% of yearling bulls are spike's, very few have a single or double forks at that age. Elk are not like deer in that matter.
I'm not disputing the spike hunts being a good thing either, only the spike vs trophy theory.
I have a great friend in Idaho who owns and runs an elk ranch, i asked him this very question years ago to settle an argument. At any one point you can go to his or any ranch and see all the yearling bulls in a pen by themselves, and 90% are spike bulls that do in fact grow very very large with age and genetics. They won't all be 400" bulls, but they smash the 300" size with ease.
Same with "management hunts", those never stop a bad gene because you never know what a cow has for genetics. A 8 year old 5x6 may breed a cow and she can kick a spike bull that becomes a monster 7x8 within 6 years old. Elk are like people....we come in all shapes and sizes 😉


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Horsecorn
(145 posts)
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Nov-16-16, 
07:41 PM (MST)
25. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

I think shadow must work for the dwr. That is there logic too. Do you really believe what you are saying. What a joke.

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Shadow
(430 posts)
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Nov-16-16, 
09:23 PM (MST)
26. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

>I think shadow must work for
>the dwr. That is there
>logic too. Do you really
>believe what you are saying.
>What a joke.


Horsecorn, I'll try and keep this simple so maybe you can keep up. The wasatch for example has had spike hunting since forever and has continually kicked out some of the best Bulls in the state year after year with spike harvest until the number of bull tags (including late season for the last 3 years) got to be too high to support top quality anymore. Tell me I'm wrong. Now the smaller herd units, as I've already said, are a different story because smaller overall herds and less bull calves born each year can't support the harvest of spikes as easily.

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slamdunk
(6197 posts)
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Nov-16-16, 
09:48 PM (MST)
27. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

Actually Shadow isn't that far off, except his hypothetical numbers are way too high IMO.
The theory behind the spike tags and the stats have been pretty accurate in post season counts, is that they estimate 10% of the yearling bulls will survive the spike hunts, grow and mature into whatever they may become in their futures. If there are 100 spike bulls in a unit and 10 live, that will be 10 bulls added each year to reach maturity.
But here's a twist.....out of those 10 bulls, 5 die of natural causes between the ages of 1.5 and maturity which is about 8 years old. Now out of those remaining 5 bulls, 1 bull actually makes it to an acceptable "trophy" size that an LE hunter harvests and the remaining 4 just eat, breed and do elk things, then eventually die a horrible frozen death in the winter (hypothetical scenario of course).
Each year there are a small number of spikes that survive and fill in the gap's between "trophy" and "yearling" that aren't touched, yet it keeps adding bulls to the herds.
The issues I have seen, especially on the Wasatch, is they have allowed WAY too many cow's to be harvested and we have now have lost a huge number of the yearling future crop as compared to about 5 years ago. And also, with all the exceptional outfitters these day's pursuing the "High Dollar" trophy bulls, we have literally skimmed the cream off the top of the herds.
Having said that, it's easy to understand why our elk herds numbers and quality have plummeted in the last 3 or so years to where we are back in the days where a 350" bull is a "Trophy Bull" and a 380" is a "Monster".
We have cut both the top and the bottom right off, simple as that.
We Utard's got spoiled rotten in the early 2000's when we were harvesting a dozen or more 400" bulls on several of our LE units......now we are back to "reality"

Ok, kick my a$$ on this and tell me how wrong I am

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PleaseDear
(8040 posts)
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Nov-17-16, 
04:42 AM (MST)
28. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

It would not surprise me to see some of the LE units go to a Draw for a Spike General tag with limited number of Spike General tags offered.

Robb

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Horsecorn
(145 posts)
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Nov-17-16, 
06:43 AM (MST)
29. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

You guys are way over thinking it. The less bulls you shoot counting spikes, means more bulls that survive which means more bulls, that is so simple to understand. The worst thing are the cow hunts, you don't just kill one cow when you shoot one. You kill all the calfs she will have for the next years she could live, and all the calfs her calfs could have. It is way simple. I blame the hunters as much as the dwr. They don't need to buy them cow and spike tags just because the dwr sales them. Quit listening to all the bs out there and use simple logic. Yes there were big bulls killed in the early 2000s, that is because sfw pushed all them auction tags and cwmu tags late tags and all the other special tags. Turned things into a guide fest, and lots of spotters to take the big ones. Now it has all cot up to us, it will never be as it once was. Real simple to see and understand.

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slamdunk
(6197 posts)
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Nov-17-16, 
07:44 AM (MST)
30. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

LAST EDITED ON Nov-17-16 AT 07:50 AM (MST)

>You guys are way over thinking
>it. The less bulls you
>shoot counting spikes, means more
>bulls that survive which means
>more bulls, that is so
>simple to understand.

It's not that simple.
You cannot just let bull numbers grow and grow and grow each year and only skim the cream off the top with only harvesting a handful of them with LE tags.
It's like water tricking into a barrel through a hose and only a staw drawing it out.
We have definitely expired our best day's and it's time for some kind of change. In an area of the wasatch this year that i have hunted for most of my life, opening weekend LE elk hunt i can count on one hand how many cows we saw, and yet two or three hands of mature bulls, all average or below average bulls.
There are too many junk bulls and not near enough cows for them.

So what's your idea's, abolish spike hunts and open more mature bull tags?
I really don't think Utah's herds can handle what Idaho does, simply because of our extremely high hunting population of people.

Nor can they over grow the herds by saving 90% of the elk to grow a 10% "trophy" based herd, the cattlemen and sheepmen won't allow it to happen.


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Horsecorn
(145 posts)
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Nov-17-16, 
07:38 PM (MST)
31. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

All units can handle way more elk than they have. Yes get rid of the cow and spike hunts. When we have more bulls then give more tags. Like the saying goes there is no such thing as having to much fun,( or elk)

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Dconcrete
(66 posts)
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Nov-17-16, 
07:59 PM (MST)
32. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

The Elk in Utah are already over objective.

We have more elk than the agreed upon amount with the cattlemens associations.

As far as the units handling more elk, that's a catch 22 as well. Because it does in fact affect the mule deer.

The elk being over objective is the reason for all the cow hunts. Whether you agree or not that the elk are above
The objective is irrelevant. I am simply stating where the numbers are. And the reasons you have the cow hunts is to knock the elk numbers down to objective.

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Shadow
(430 posts)
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Nov-17-16, 
08:23 PM (MST)
33. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

Slamdunk and Dconcrete, WTH? The debate was just getting fun and then you two come along with all your facts and common sense. Seriously though, I can see that you both have an objective opinion and I couldn't agree more with what you guys are saying.

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Horsecorn
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Nov-17-16, 
09:01 PM (MST)
34. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

Who said they are over objective. The dwr, how do they know the numbers. I can guess better then they can. All a guy needs to do is drive around and look with your own eyes to see what we don't have. Ask these late bookcliffs elk hunters what they are seeing and ask them if they are happy with the numbers. But no go to the dwr meetings and you can buy into their bs stories. What a joke. So keep coming with all of your so called statistics. Maybe you need to get off your chair and take a look for yourself.

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slamdunk
(6197 posts)
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Nov-17-16, 
09:07 PM (MST)
35. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

Dconcrete is also spot on in this debate.
As i menioned above in my previous post about the Wasatch, the elk numbers around Strawberry have declined dramatically over the past 3-4 years, yet i most definitely see an increase in mule deer population growing.

Maybe it's time for Utah to have a few of the bigger units like Wasatch, Monroe and Manti go to a more "hunter opportunity" of "Any Bull" much like Idaho and leave some of the other units like the Boulder, Pahvant and Dutton "Premium" where mature bulls of say 5x5 or better is a rule?

Just thinking out loud....

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Dconcrete
(66 posts)
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Nov-18-16, 
07:11 AM (MST)
36. "RE: Spike hunts on LE units ?"

Well horsecorn, can't debate when somebody wants to automatically go to the mud pit!!

Perhaps you've missed your calling in life? Put together a company, and submit a bid to the Utah division of wildlife to count all their elk and deer for them.

Sounds like you have the airplane and the helicopter and all the eyes and ears needed to do a stunningly accurate count.

Don't forget something when you talk about the elk on the wasatch, or any other unit for that matter, animals on private land count towards the population. Just because they're not on public, doesn't mean they're not there!!

Think, fishlake.

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