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Mystery of Yellowstone Elk

 
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DeerMadness
(1832 posts)
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Dec-28-16, 
09:08 PM (MST)
"Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

A great show. It was Lake Trout illegally introduced to Yellowstone Lake that reduced the Cutthroat Trout almost to extinction. This left the bears to eat more Elk.
The F&G killed almost million Lake Trout helping the Cutthroat to replenish. Elk are rebounding now.Wolverine and Grizzlies take a toll but the entire ecosystem is an intricate one.

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  Table of Contents  

 Subject   Author   Message Date   ID 
 RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Dec-29-16   1 
  RE: Mystery of...  DeerMadness      Dec-29-16   3 
   RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Dec-29-16   10 
 RE: Mystery of...  DeerHunter53      Dec-29-16   2 
  RE: Mystery of...  mightyhunter      Dec-29-16   5 
   RE: Mystery of...  mntman      Dec-29-16   8 
    RE: Mystery of...  mntman      Dec-29-16   9 
     RE: Mystery of...  mightyhunter      Dec-29-16   12 
      RE: Mystery of...  mntman      Dec-30-16   18 
 RE: Mystery of...  BradN      Dec-29-16   4 
  RE: Mystery of...  DeerMadness      Dec-29-16   7 
 RE: Mystery of...  RutCrazed      Dec-29-16   6 
  RE: Mystery of...  Togwotee      Dec-29-16   11 
   RE: Mystery of...  DeerMadness      Dec-29-16   13 
    RE: Mystery of...  Togwotee      Dec-29-16   14 
     RE: Mystery of...  Dconcrete      Dec-29-16   15 
     RE: Mystery of...  Mobowhunter      Dec-30-16   16 
     RE: Mystery of...  Mobowhunter      Dec-30-16   17 
      RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Dec-30-16   19 
       RE: Mystery of...  ClearCreek      Dec-31-16   20 
        RE: Mystery of...  nontypical      Dec-31-16   21 
         RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Dec-31-16   23 
         RE: Mystery of...  ClearCreek      Dec-31-16   28 
       RE: Mystery of...  DeerMadness      Jan-01-17   30 
 RE: Mystery of...  eelgrass      Dec-31-16   22 
  RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Dec-31-16   24 
   RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Dec-31-16   25 
 RE: Mystery of...  nfh      Dec-31-16   26 
  RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Dec-31-16   27 
  RE: Mystery of...  DeerMadness      Jan-01-17   31 
   RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Jan-01-17   32 
  RE: Mystery of...  appaloosa      Jan-01-17   33 
 RE: Mystery of...  eelgrass      Dec-31-16   29 
  RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Jan-01-17   34 
   RE: Mystery of...  Togwotee      Jan-01-17   35 
 RE: Mystery of...  eelgrass      Jan-01-17   36 
  RE: Mystery of...  2lumpy      Jan-01-17   37 
   RE: Mystery of...  ClearCreek      Jan-02-17   38 
    RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Jan-02-17   39 
     RE: Mystery of...  2lumpy      Jan-02-17   40 
      RE: Mystery of...  nontypical      Jan-04-17   41 
       RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Jan-04-17   42 
       RE: Mystery of...  ClearCreek      Jan-05-17   45 
      RE: Mystery of...  nfh      Jan-04-17   43 
       RE: Mystery of...  Togwotee      Jan-04-17   44 
        RE: Mystery of...  nontypical      Jan-07-17   46 
         RE: Mystery of...  2lumpy      Jan-07-17   47 
          RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Jan-07-17   48 
           RE: Mystery of...  2lumpy      Jan-07-17   49 
            RE: Mystery of...  elkassassin      Jan-07-17   50 
             RE: Mystery of...  2lumpy      Jan-07-17   51 
              RE: Mystery of...  goofyelk      Jan-09-17   52 
               RE: Mystery of...  Togwotee      Jan-09-17   53 
                RE: Mystery of...  hossblur      Jan-14-17   54 
                 RE: Mystery of...  nontypical      Jan-14-17   55 
                  RE: Mystery of...  ClearCreek      Jan-14-17   56 
                  RE: Mystery of...  txhunter58      Jan-14-17   57 
                   RE: Mystery of...  wstrntines      Jan-15-17   58 

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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
01:36 AM (MST)
1. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Hey DM!

We Must have a Talk about what Really Happened up there!


She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words

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DeerMadness
(1832 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
09:06 AM (MST)
3. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Watch the show and then we will talk Bess..

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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
07:17 PM (MST)
10. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

>Watch the show and then we
>will talk Bess..

Next Time We Meet up DM We will have the Talk!

They are Telling People what People wanna Hear!

I'm NOT Buying Their BS!


She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words

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DeerHunter53
(294 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
07:17 AM (MST)
2. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

I was there last year and the elk and deer that used to be a staple of the park are no where in sight. The park wardens tell us that the wolves have cut there numbers way down and the ones left are hiding
Just sayin that is what I heard didn't hear anything about the fish declining

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mightyhunter
(792 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
10:02 AM (MST)
5. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

It is my understanding that Lake Trout were introduced into YNP in the 1890's. They were intentionally planted in Shoshone Lake and Lewis Lake. There are a couple of varying reports as to who did the planting. Some claim it was the U.S. Fish Commission (now the USFWS)and others claim it was the first superintendent of Yellowstone Park. The Lake Trout has been solely blamed as the scapegoat for the Yellowstone Cutthroat demise. I believe that the "let it burn" policy of YNP is also a culprit in the demise of the Yellowstone Cutthroat. Many of the spawning streams running into Yellowstone Lake have silted up as a result of this policy.

just sayin...mh

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mntman
(3796 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
05:52 PM (MST)
8. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

I believe that
>the "let it burn" policy
>of YNP is also a
>culprit in the demise of
>the Yellowstone Cutthroat. Many of
>the spawning streams running into
>Yellowstone Lake have silted up
>as a result of this
>policy.
>
>just sayin...mh

If they the gov't didn't have the policy for a hundred years that fires were bad and let nature do its work. We wouldn't be in the situation we are in now with fires.
Nature used to have many small fires that cleaned up dead fall and started new growth.
Due to fires being bad and put out the instant they started for 100 years, fires now result in large massive blazes that burn everything including the topsoil, thus we have the current results.
It isn't due to the fire, cause how did the trout survive for thousands of years with fire before man arrived and started putting out fires...


Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"

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mntman
(3796 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
05:53 PM (MST)
9. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Every acre needs to burn in the western us so it can start over/recover.
when fires occur they need to be allowed to run their course, this will greatly improve habitat for all species too.

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"

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mightyhunter
(792 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
09:19 PM (MST)
12. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Check out the many tributary streams on the east side of Yellowstone Lake. I know them well and have fished them extensively. They had beautiful spawning gravel and were choked with Yellowstone Cutthroat. The forest canopy is gone and the streams have silted up and have now filled with mud.

I do agree that fire can be a great thing for habitat. Unfortunately, there are also other consequences that can be adverse. To blame the collapse of the Yellowstone Cutthroat solely on the Lake Trout, is to ignore other science and fact.

just sayin...mh

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mntman
(3796 posts)
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Dec-30-16, 
08:49 AM (MST)
18. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

>Check out the many tributary streams
>on the east side of
>Yellowstone Lake. I know them
>well and have fished them
>extensively. They had beautiful spawning
>gravel and were choked with
>Yellowstone Cutthroat. The forest canopy
>is gone and the streams
>have silted up and have
>now filled with mud.
>
>I do agree that fire can
>be a great thing for
>habitat. Unfortunately, there are also
>other consequences that can be
>adverse. To blame the collapse
>of the Yellowstone Cutthroat solely
>on the Lake Trout, is
>to ignore other science and
>fact.
>
>just sayin...mh

Not saying the fire didn't cause it and disagreeing that the silt is clogging up streams. was trying to say that if fires were allowed to burn like nature intended then they wouldn't be like that. (many small fires that don't get as hot...)

I don't agree with the lake trout being 100% at fault either. Them being in the system for so long and they just now seen a decline proves it isn't solely the lake trout. As with nature there is almost always many different factors playing into a reason why a species climbs or drops..

Mntman

"Hunting is where you prove yourself"

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BradN
(163 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
09:52 AM (MST)
4. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

>Wolverine and Grizzlies take a
>toll but the entire ecosystem
>is an intricate one.

Wolverines killing elk these days?

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DeerMadness
(1832 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
04:39 PM (MST)
7. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-16 AT 04:40 PM (MST)

Wolves, sorry I have been fighting this Galaxy S7 and it's auto correct. I didn't notice that.

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RutCrazed
(195 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
11:34 AM (MST)
6. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

If the bears were starving, there are a lot of slower moving animals than elk to eat.

Rut

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Togwotee
(5054 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
07:30 PM (MST)
11. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"


There may be a bit of truth in all of that but let's be real.


Saying a new species of fish is responsible is either the work of some wolf kissing hippie or the work of a deep thinking Subaru driver who thinks he's Einstein in Birkenstocks.


It's the wolves. it's no mystery it's a tragedy.


Stay Thirsty My Friends

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DeerMadness
(1832 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
09:20 PM (MST)
13. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

I agree that the Wolves are horrible Togwotee. Im not saying I agree completely with their findings but I do think the elk are affected by the loss off parts of the food chain . Wolves have been around forever and the Elk and Bison weren't deleted by them.
Changes in weather, and changes in habitat can affect the world more than Predators do. I think the world is changing due to all the winter ranges shrinking, Beetle damage, drought and a myriad of things. The show was very interesting whether it's all what they say or not.

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Togwotee
(5054 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
10:28 PM (MST)
14. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

e
Some truth to that, but. the elk contended with gray wolves not the lager Canadian wolves.

Also just because they survived doesn't mean they thrived. we know game herds flourished after the removal of the native gray wolf by the white man.

In a perfectly natural setting the elk and wolves probably coexisted fairly efficiently. but we all know the west of today is anything but perfectly natural. so something has to give.


I'm not saying your article falls into the wolf lover smoke and mirror hide the truth classification, but it comes close. if we could remove the wolves the elk would thrive and the bear could eat all of them he wanted so the effect wouldn't be noticeable. in my opinion.

We rode sleds in Yellowstone from 1986 until they closed it in 1999. almost every year since then we go back and ride outside the park. with my own eyes in this time I've seen the wintering elk on the Firehole go from numorous to nearly extinct. last year we drew the 5 sled permits for a couple days to ride on your own through the west gate, we saw exactly two elk in the park in two days. I couldn't believe it .


Sorry about the long winded rant but the wolf deal really really gets me pizzed off. I've watched the decline with my own eyes and I have no doubt whatsoever what 90% of the cause is.


Stay Thirsty My Friends

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Dconcrete
(66 posts)
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Dec-29-16, 
10:49 PM (MST)
15. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

The lake trout in Yellowstone are magical. They've caused the decline in elk in Yellowstone.

And I'd suspect they caused the decline in a part of Idaho that I hunt too. But reality is this, where I'm at in Idaho has no grizzly bears and there aren't any lake trout either. But there are 2 other common items, a hell of a lot less elk and moose, and the wolves have been confirmed there since 2009.

Yes, those lake trout sure are phenomenal.....

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Mobowhunter
(15 posts)
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Dec-30-16, 
05:40 AM (MST)
16. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

I'm convinced the wolves are to blame for the demise of both elk and moose. I was in Yellowstone in 2003 and elk were everywhere including bulls laying on all fours r corners of Roosevelt intersection. I was back with friends in 2013 and we saw 3 elk in the distance. It amazes me how the "wildlife experts" can't see this. It's clear they have an agenda and no amount of evidence will get them to look at facts.

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Mobowhunter
(15 posts)
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Dec-30-16, 
05:41 AM (MST)
17. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

I'm convinced the wolves are to blame for the demise of both elk and moose. I was in Yellowstone in 2003 and elk were everywhere including bulls laying on all fours r corners of Roosevelt intersection. I was back with friends in 2013 and we saw 3 elk in the distance. It amazes me how the "wildlife experts" can't see this. It's clear they have an agenda and no amount of evidence will get them to look at facts.

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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Dec-30-16, 
08:57 PM (MST)
19. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"


One Question DM?

What do you think the Number 1/Main Reason Wolves were Reintroduced in JellyStone Park?


She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words

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ClearCreek
(92 posts)
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Dec-31-16, 
11:08 AM (MST)
20. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

>
>One Question DM?
>
>What do you think the Number
>1/Main Reason Wolves were Reintroduced
>in JellyStone Park?
>
>>She put a Big F.U.
>in My Future,Ya She's got
>a
>way with Words

>
>
Two reasons: 1) so the population could be considered experimental, non-essential, and 2) to reduce the number of ungulates in the Park! Wolves have done a better job on the elk than they have on the buffalo. There are still too many ungulates in the Park.

(Remember, if the wolves returned on their own they would have been fully protected under the Endangered Species Act, that was an undesirable scenario, so the re-introduction tool place.

The experimental, non-essential designation was forgotten quickly after the wolves became numerous.

ClearCreek


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nontypical
(2896 posts)
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Dec-31-16, 
02:05 PM (MST)
21. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Re-introduction? Don't you mean the INTRODUCTION of the non-native Canadian grey wolf?

Re-introducing the native timber wolf( which don't hunt in packs and are much smaller) would have been fine.

Wolves killed 19 cow elk on a feed ground here in western Wyoming within the past month in one night. They pulled fetuses from cows; many while they were still alive-no doubt. If there were 11 calves in those cows; that's 30 dead elk in one night....for fun. Those elk were left to die with very little meat eaten by those lake trout. OOPS!! I meant wolves!!

That's the reality of the situation. Any other explanation is absolute BS.

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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Dec-31-16, 
04:53 PM (MST)
23. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

>Re-introduction? Don't you mean the INTRODUCTION
>of the non-native Canadian grey
>wolf?
>
>Re-introducing the native timber wolf( which
>don't hunt in packs and
>are much smaller) would have
>been fine.
>
>Wolves killed 19 cow elk on
>a feed ground here in
>western Wyoming within the past
>month in one night. They
>pulled fetuses from cows; many
>while they were still alive-no
>doubt. If there were 11
>calves in those cows; that's
>30 dead elk in one
>night....for fun. Those elk were
>left to die with very
>little meat eaten by those
>lake trout. OOPS!! I meant
>wolves!!
>
>That's the reality of the situation.
>Any other explanation is absolute
>BS.

My Bad!

Remove the Re!

It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!

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ClearCreek
(92 posts)
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Dec-31-16, 
06:00 PM (MST)
28. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

>Re-introduction? Don't you mean the INTRODUCTION
>of the non-native Canadian grey
>wolf?
>
>Re-introducing the native timber wolf( which
>don't hunt in packs and
>are much smaller) would have
>been fine.
>
>Wolves killed 19 cow elk on
>a feed ground here in
>western Wyoming within the past
>month in one night. They
>pulled fetuses from cows; many
>while they were still alive-no
>doubt. If there were 11
>calves in those cows; that's
>30 dead elk in one
>night....for fun. Those elk were
>left to die with very
>little meat eaten by those
>lake trout. OOPS!! I meant
>wolves!!
>
>That's the reality of the situation.
>Any other explanation is absolute
>BS.

So what kind of wolves would have been protected by the ESA if they would have established themselves in Yellowstone and the re-introduction would not have happened?

Would the diminutive, solitary prairie wolves have mysteriously showed up??

ClearCreek

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DeerMadness
(1832 posts)
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Jan-01-17, 
00:34 AM (MST)
30. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Because peopleIke Babbitt thought it would be great for people to see. I didn't want the Wolves though.

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eelgrass
(20069 posts)
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Dec-31-16, 
03:26 PM (MST)
22. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Does anybody have a photo of bears eating and getting fat on Cutthroat Trout in YNP? Or anywhere else for that matter?

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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Dec-31-16, 
04:57 PM (MST)
24. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Replace the Word Salmon with Cutthroat Eel!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdjl15HRGlE&list=PL98EF0CA505CADBC0

It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!

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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Dec-31-16, 
05:01 PM (MST)
25. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

On Rare Occasion Eel it Happens!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzxVkes0i_Q

It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!

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nfh
(5153 posts)
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Dec-31-16, 
05:40 PM (MST)
26. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

So a fish illegally introduce but they won't say a wolf illegally introduced. Since they brought in a much bigger wolf. So I suppose the fish made the gardner herd go from 21k to 3k. And what about elk that live outside the park away from the fish ? How did the numbers decline? These enviro loonies crack me up

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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Dec-31-16, 
05:44 PM (MST)
27. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

They (Feds/Government!) Have Tried Blaming everything except what's to Blame!

It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!

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DeerMadness
(1832 posts)
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Jan-01-17, 
00:36 AM (MST)
31. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

So you've never been to Alaska?

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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Jan-01-17, 
05:53 AM (MST)
32. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

>So you've never been to Alaska?
>

Yup!

Been to Alaska!

Yup Bears Eat Fish!

Bears Will Eat about anything!

We'll Have the Talk Someday DM & You'll Understand it a little better!

If People wanna get Mad about the Lake Trout that is Fine!

But Get Mad at Who Actually Put em in there!

Don't get Mad because the Lake Trout Ate some Cutthroat!

And Most of all don't believe somebody saying this is Why there isn't any Elk or Moose left in that area!

I'll let the Locals that don't Live too Far from the Park SPLAIN a few things!


It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!

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appaloosa
(114 posts)
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Jan-01-17, 
08:37 AM (MST)
33. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

>So a fish illegally introduce but
>they won't say a wolf
>illegally introduced. Since they brought
>in a much bigger wolf.
>So I suppose the fish
>made the gardner herd go
>from 21k to 3k. And
>what about elk that live
>outside the park away from
>the fish ? How did
>the numbers decline? These enviro
>loonies crack me up

This whole lake trout thing has been dramatized and sensationalized. But so has this idea that the Canadian grey wolf is a larger more ferocious version of the "native wolf". There is zero empirical evidence to support these claims. It is base entirely on anecdote and is the result of rhetoric. It just cracks me up nfh, when you resort to the same tactics as the "enviro loonies". Unfortunately, this is the current state of people's atitudes to wolves and bears with reality lost somewhere in the middle.

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eelgrass
(20069 posts)
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Dec-31-16, 
06:53 PM (MST)
29. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Wolves are working so well in YNP I think at least 10 breeding pairs should be released in the brand new 1.3 million acre Bears Ears National Monument.

Sorry Bbop!

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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Jan-01-17, 
06:36 PM (MST)
34. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

There's a Pea Brained Plan to Introduce Wolves to TARDville as Well!

We already have a few!

There have been a small Hand Full for many Years!

Anybody Wonder Why they Don't do so Well in TARDville?

Not Hard to Figure out!

They can Plant em here if they'd like!

They will never survive in enough numbers to worry about!

I Don't know 3 TARDS in the entire State that wouldn't shoot one if given the chance!

A Guy a while Back Shot one here in TARDville & Turned it in as to Thinking it was a
'BIG COYOTE'!

What they gonna do to you for shooting what you thought was a Big Coyote?

Yes I Know Wolf Numbers grew Rapidly in Wyoming,Northern Idaho & Montana!

But Them States are not POUNDED OUT with non stop/overlapped Hunts like TARDville!

Bring em in & We'll show you a PISS POOR Survival Rate in this State!

It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!

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Togwotee
(5054 posts)
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Jan-01-17, 
08:10 PM (MST)
35. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"


Spotted horse. I haven't been to the bear/wolf discovery center in West for years but the last time I was there they had native gray and Canadian wolves both. in separate pens. the difference was obvious to even the slowest tourist.

I asked the hippie chick giving out information why they didn't assist the gray wolf rather than introduce Canadian wolves, she replied because the game species the wolves needed to prey on today were larger and the Canadian wolves stood a better chance at survival.

Of course I had a million questions but I figured WTF is the point. if I had followed up my fist question would be how much bigger are game animals today than 100 years ago?


Don't be fooled by the BS. in my opinion the wolf was reintroduced more as an anti-hunting weapon than and environmental matter. wolf lovers don't love wolves as much as they hate us. it's like killing two birds with one stone.

Stay Thirsty My Friends

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eelgrass
(20069 posts)
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Jan-01-17, 
09:41 PM (MST)
36. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Still, the cancer spreads.

Final Conservation Plan for Gray Wolves in California

https://www.wildlife.ca.gov/conservation/mammals/gray-wolf

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2lumpy
(2905 posts)
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Jan-01-17, 
11:17 PM (MST)
37. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Justifying wolves in Yellowstone is critical to the current wolf effort in the lower 48. This isn't the first, nor will it be the last parallel "issue" that the "wolf people" will "use" to take pressure off keeping wolves in the lower 48 ecosystem.

A clever person can take just about any change in the natural environment and explain it or explain it away by tying unrelated or partially related events to an entirely unrelated event/change. A large committee of clever people are even better at it than a single individual.

I dare say, given a little time, these wolf people could put together a reasonably believeble argument that the tides in Japan are directly responsible for the decline of moose and elk populations in Yellowstone.

Am I wrong or didn't the Park Service say right up front, one of the reasons they where supporting the introduction of wolves into the Park was to help balance/reduce the ungulates?

Well, they reduced them, but now they've got huge public blow back and they CYA. Now they are saying it was the fish not the wolves? Huh? Guess that wolf thing was a bust then! Did help at all? Wasn't even necessary?

If that's true, then the wolf introduction was a failure. Failed programs should be terminated immediately. If the wolf didn't "do it's job " why are we still supporting and protected a failed system. Us the wolf protection money to fix the fish problem and get rid of the wolves. If we ever get too many elk and moose again, put some Lake Trout back in the lake.

Or......... issue elk, buffalo and moose tags to sportsmen. We're a lot easier to manage than a pack of free ranging grey wolves

T is 100% correct, this doesn't and has never had a single thing to do with wolves or elk. Remember their moto, "Never waste a crisis".

It's all smoke grenades guys.

DC

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ClearCreek
(92 posts)
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Jan-02-17, 
09:46 AM (MST)
38. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

As I said in an earlier post there were two reasons wolves were re-introduced into YNP:

1) to get ahead of the ESA listing as wolves were returning to YNP on their own. Had the Park Service waited and the wolves became established on their own, they would have had full ESA protection. In retrospect, it made little difference, as wolves now have full ESA protection.

2) Wolves were also reintroduced to reduce the number of ungulates in YNP. Studies done in the late 1980's indicated there were way too many ungulates in YNP. Wolves have controlled the elk, but not the bison (although there is one wolf pack that is "learning" to take down adult bison). There is still about twice as many bison in the Park as desired from an ecological standpoint.

While wolves have controlled the number on elk in the Park, remember in the years prior to wolf reintroduction Montana had been issuing a lot of cow elk permits in the area north of the Park.

There is no way white people are going to ever be issued hunting licenses in the Park and sharpshooters killing elk in the Park, like in the 1950's and early 1960's is not going to happen again either.

ClearCreek


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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Jan-02-17, 
10:33 AM (MST)
39. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

>As I said in an earlier
>post there were two reasons
>wolves were re-introduced into YNP:
>
>
>1) to get ahead of the
>ESA listing as wolves were
>returning to YNP on their
>own. Had the Park
>Service waited and the wolves
>became established on their own,
>they would have had full
>ESA protection. In retrospect,
>it made little difference, as
>wolves now have full ESA
>protection.
>
>2) Wolves were also reintroduced to
>reduce the number of ungulates
>in YNP. Studies done
>in the late 1980's indicated
>there were way too many
>ungulates in YNP. Wolves
>have controlled the elk, but
>not the bison (although there
>is one wolf pack that
>is "learning" to take down
>adult bison). There is
>still about twice as many
>bison in the Park as
>desired from an ecological standpoint.
>
>
>While wolves have controlled the number
>on elk in the Park,
>remember in the years prior
>to wolf reintroduction Montana had
>been issuing a lot of
>cow elk permits in the
>area north of the Park.
>
>
>There is no way white people
>are going to ever be
>issued hunting licenses in the
>Park and sharpshooters killing elk
>in the Park, like in
>the 1950's and early 1960's
>is not going to happen
>again either.
>
>ClearCreek
>
>
>

And They Don't Need to Kill Elk in the Park Now!

If A Bull Elk is Spotted in the Park now You'll Know it!

Biggest Traffic Jam I Seen Last Year was a PISSCUTTER Bull with Numerous Orientals with Cameras with HUGE Lenses thinking they needed to be within Feet of it to get a Good Pic!

JUDAS!

I Think The Gal that Thought She needed to get Closer to that Cow Elk was Epic!

The Cow Elk Knocked Her Dumb Ass Down!


It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!

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2lumpy
(2905 posts)
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Jan-02-17, 
12:09 PM (MST)
40. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

"There is no way white people are going to ever be issued hunting licenses in the Park..."

"Ever" is a long time, so I'm not sure I'd use the term ever"............but, let's say your correct........I could care less if "whites" ever get issued hunting licenses in the Park. If the Park folks have something against whites getting licenses, then issue licenses to the Native Americans, the Africans, the Asians, or the South Americans, I could careless, just quite pretending a wolf or a fish or a wild fire can solve a man made problem, while men remain the dominate "occupier" of the continent.

For hell sake, apply some common sense to the YNP animal/habitat balance management task, and stop using the Park as a sociopolitical tug-o-war, at the expense of the beauty of a remarkable but postage stamp sized ecosystem.

DC

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nontypical
(2896 posts)
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Jan-04-17, 
02:20 PM (MST)
41. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

ClearCreek: Please tell me how the introduction of Canadian grey wolves is a "re-introduction" if they were never native to the area. Lots of us would like to know.

So...by your logic, lake trout were "re-introduced" to Yellowstone Lake. After all...they are fish. Right?

Bess...my last post was not directed to you.

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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Jan-04-17, 
03:49 PM (MST)
42. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

>ClearCreek: Please tell me how the
>introduction of Canadian grey wolves
>is a "re-introduction" if they
>were never native to the
>area. Lots of us would
>like to know.
>
>So...by your logic, lake trout were
>"re-introduced" to Yellowstone Lake. After
>all...they are fish. Right?
>
>Bess...my last post was not directed
>to you.

Hey nontypical!

Not Worried about it!

Just Amazes me What Goes on in Today's World!

Our Government has become Good At Baffling people with their BS!


It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!

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ClearCreek
(92 posts)
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Jan-05-17, 
10:04 PM (MST)
45. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

>ClearCreek: Please tell me how the
>introduction of Canadian grey wolves
>is a "re-introduction" if they
>were never native to the
>area. Lots of us would
>like to know.
>
>So...by your logic, lake trout were
>"re-introduced" to Yellowstone Lake. After
>all...they are fish. Right?
>


nontypical:

The Park Service had to get a wolf released into YNP quickly to get ahead of the wolves that were showing up in areas near YNP. Remember the talk in the early 1990's was that a "re-introduced" population would be "experimental, nonessential" thus giving agencies more wolf management flexibility. I would assume the grey wolf from Canada was chosen because they were easier to get.

The wolves that were trapped and then released into the park were not the same sup-species as had been extirpated from YNP. The courts affirmed that two years after wolves were released.

But, since the release, the wolves that have spread into Montana and Idaho and had off spring which have been killed by hunters have shown to be the same size (body weight wise) as the wolves that were "native" to YNP. The wolves trapped and taken to YNP for release were trapped not that far north of the Canadian border. Given the way the wolves have dispersed from YNP after being released, it would not be unreasonable to believe wolves in the areas where they were trapped (southern Canada) would have traveled, at some point, a few hundred years ago to interbreed with the wolves that were in the area of YNP before Europeans ever saw the area.

Wolves have affected the elk in YNP in two ways; predation and behavior change. There are not as many elk in YNP as there used to be - that was one of the goals (reducing ungulates) of releasing wolves in YNP. The research done on elk behavior in YNP, post wolves, has shown some interesting effects that having wolves and elk in the same area has caused. Elk are much more wary now than they were prior to wolves being released. I could go on and on, but I don't type well and I want to address your lake trout comment.

Your comment on the lake trout "being re-introduced because they are a fish" is just silly. At least the wolves that were brought in were a closely related sub-species that have similar life histories. Lake trout (LAT) and Yellowstone Cutthroat (YSC) are totally different. LAT are a char of the genus Salvelinus while YSC are of the genus Oncorhynchus. They have very different life histories when it comes to food habits and spawning times.

There is disagreement on how lake trout that are not native to the YNP area actually got into Yellowstone Lake. Some will say the Park Service stocked them in Yellowstone Lake in the early 1900's, others will say they found their way from the lakes in YNP where they were stocked at one point to Yellowstone Lake. I do not know so I will not speculate.

I don't think there is much doubt that non-native LAT have had negative effects on native YSC in Yellowstone Lake.

That is enough hitting the keys tonight.

ClearCreek


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nfh
(5153 posts)
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Jan-04-17, 
07:13 PM (MST)
43. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

We do hunt YNP elk. The late season hunts catch the ynp elk migration out of the park into our legal hunting.areas. The hunt is a blast. Took me 12-14 years to draw my december hunt.

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Togwotee
(5054 posts)
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Jan-04-17, 
07:21 PM (MST)
44. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Exactly, my wife killed a beautiful bull in a late unit 59 that no doubt came from the SE part of the park.

What was wrong with the elk before the introduction of Canadian wolves? the seemed to be doing just fine as I recall.


If you want to talk about moose we can really talk some damage the wolves have caused. it's depressing.

Stay Thirsty My Friends

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nontypical
(2896 posts)
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Jan-07-17, 
01:18 PM (MST)
46. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

I guess it's all a matter of opinion, ClearCreek. You speculate that "it's not unreasonable" that wolves would cross the border from Canada to breed with native wolves in the Yellowstone region. While you could possibly be correct in that assumption, there is no known instances to back up your opinion on that. Speculation.

Don't kid yourself; Canadian grey wolves were introduced to the lower 48 as part of a much bigger plan that may or may not have been colluded with USFWS by various enviro/animal rights groups. Again: speculation on my part.

I remember a few years back when a couple of liberal congresswomen had all the elk and deer exterminated off of a certain island( Santa Catalina?) off the coast of California because they weren't native species to the area. Those same people were also in favor of introducing a non-native species to YNP. Rather ironic, don't you think? Of course you don't! Funny how folks can be contradictory when it favors their own agenda. The introduction of Canadian grey wolves to YNP was more political than biological. Couldn't we have used the same sharpshooters to kill the excess elk in YNP?? I know...can't hunt in a NP. So wait until winter when they migrate out of the park. Right? Oh yeah! We used to do that; only the sharpshooters were called hunters!!!

Hybridized wolves, eh? Interesting theory. So when mule deer finally die off in a few centuries, will we introduce whitetails? Maybe whitetail/mulie hybrids?? Blacktails?

Of course not! That would be absurd! Wouldn't it?? Of course, since those critters aren't predators, none of the aforementioned groups would back such a ridiculous plan. A plan like that would allow continued hunting...not get rid of it...

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2lumpy
(2905 posts)
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Jan-07-17, 
03:00 PM (MST)
47. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

It's called confirmation bias nontypical, and we are all inflicted with a health does of it. The problem is, some of us admit we have it, and others never will, because they don't believe they do.

Regarding hunting Yellowstone for predator/prey/habitat balance, rather than expecting wild predators to do it for us: Hunting game that migrates out of the Park is not the same as hunting "in the Park", nor is it an effective nor reliable management tool to manage over/under populations of big game animals.

If the Park has a problem with predator/prey/habitat balance, it can not be left up to "a natural ecosystem" to solve the problem.

There is not a Park/Wilderness area, in the lower 48 States, large enough, remote enough/isolated enough from human influence, that it can survive in an "natural, pre-modern man" environment. Especially our National Parks.

The idea that the National Parks, Wilderness Areas, or Monuments, can be managed "hands-off-by-humans" so the ecosystem can "go back to nature" and "return to it's natural ecosystem" is absurd. Completely and utterly "bat sh!t crazy". In fact, it's not being managed hands-off, the Park Service just pretend it is when they talk to Park visitors then they claim it's hands off, for the benefit of the Park. In reality the Park Service manage the hell of these Parks, they just manage them "their way", and claim it's "hands-off" for the best interest of the ecosystem. Horse pucky!!

If, as has been claimed, the bison are still a habitat problem in the Park, the Park Service can quickly and efficiency solve the problem with "highly controlled sportsmen hunting" INSIDE THE PARK, and explain the need for it to the public. Those who love the Park and want the best for it, will understand and appreciate it, and the one's that oppose it, for sociopolitical reasons can go to hell, because, it's these folks that are destroying the Park, because of their flawed agenda.

DC

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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Jan-07-17, 
03:42 PM (MST)
48. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

>It's called confirmation bias nontypical, and
>we are all inflicted with
>a health does of it.
> The problem is, some
>of us admit we have
>it, and others never will,
>because they don't believe they
>do.
>
>Regarding hunting Yellowstone for predator/prey/habitat balance,
>rather than expecting wild predators
>to do it for us:
> Hunting game that migrates
>out of the Park is
>not the same as hunting
>"in the Park", nor is
>it an effective nor reliable
>management tool to manage over/under
>populations of big game animals.
>
>
>If the Park has a problem
>with predator/prey/habitat balance, it can
>not be left up to
>"a natural ecosystem" to solve
>the problem.
>
>There is not a Park/Wilderness area,
>in the lower 48 States,
>large enough, remote enough/isolated enough
>from human influence, that it
>can survive in an "natural,
>pre-modern man" environment. Especially
>our National Parks.
>
>The idea that the National Parks,
>Wilderness Areas, or Monuments, can
>be managed "hands-off-by-humans" so the
>ecosystem can "go back to
>nature" and "return to it's
>natural ecosystem" is absurd.
>Completely and utterly "bat sh!t
>crazy". In fact, it's
>not being managed hands-off, the
>Park Service just pretend it
>is when they talk to
>Park visitors then they claim
>it's hands off, for the
>benefit of the Park.
>In reality the Park Service
>manage the hell of these
>Parks, they just manage them
>"their way", and claim it's
>"hands-off" for the best interest
>of the ecosystem. Horse
>pucky!!
>
>If, as has been claimed, the
>bison are still a habitat
>problem in the Park, the
>Park Service can quickly and
>efficiency solve the problem with
>"highly controlled sportsmen hunting"
>INSIDE THE PARK, and explain
>the need for it to
>the public. Those who
>love the Park and want
>the best for it, will
>understand and appreciate it, and
>the one's that oppose it,
>for sociopolitical reasons can go
>to hell, because, it's these
>folks that are destroying the
>Park, because of their flawed
>agenda.
>
>DC

Hey Lumpy!

Maybe You can Get us a few Bison Park Permits?

I'll Rig us up a LEZBARU or a VW Chartreuse Micro Bus For Camouflage!

Can You Imagine the GREENIES/HIPPIES/ORIENTALS/WOLF LOVERS/FLOWER CHILDREN We'd Stir Up?

Wolves would Be Extra's,Right?


It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!

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2lumpy
(2905 posts)
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Jan-07-17, 
03:58 PM (MST)
49. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Not in our life time BC, I can't even get you a San Juan elk tag, with 20 points. Not enough love these days,

The GREENIES/HIPPIES/ORIENTALS/WOLF LOVERS/FLOWER CHILDREN all have confirmation bias too, and they'll freely give you all the reasons wolves, and "hands-off" will save us from ourselves. Oh ya, they got it all figured out. I've got a great picture of aftermath of the hip generation, that I'll share with you on January 20, after the inauguration. ;)

DC

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elkassassin
(15896 posts)
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Jan-07-17, 
04:13 PM (MST)
50. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Gonna make me wait Huh?

It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!

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2lumpy
(2905 posts)
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Jan-07-17, 
09:18 PM (MST)
51. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Oh ya, it's like your birthday BC, you can't open your presents until the big day. It's nothing special, just my personal observation of the current national situation.

Don't hold your breath, it's more like a new pair of jockey shorts, rather than a new Remington "Luke Sky Walker" muzzleloader.

DC

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goofyelk
(1044 posts)
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Jan-09-17, 
09:43 AM (MST)
52. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"


No 'Mystery' in my mind.

The disappearance of Yellowstone elk is caused by WOLVES!


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Togwotee
(5054 posts)
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Jan-09-17, 
10:42 AM (MST)
53. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

I'm going to be on the Gros Ventre feed grounds next month. I'll take some pictures of the bones the lake trout left behind.

Stay Thirsty My Friends

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hossblur
(1730 posts)
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Jan-14-17, 
07:27 AM (MST)
54. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Well now I'm really confused. I read that the entire river ecosystem was vastly improved because the Canadian Grey Wolf had eaten the elk, therefore the elk couldn't eat all the willows, therefore the beaver had something to eat, therefore their population increased, therefore they created more damns, therefore there was more water for fish, therefore the introduction of the Canadian Grey wolf had pretty much saved Yellowstone from the obvious exinction that was taking place thanks to elk. Did I misread something?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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nontypical
(2896 posts)
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Jan-14-17, 
12:14 PM (MST)
55. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Now the beavers are involved too??

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ClearCreek
(92 posts)
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Jan-14-17, 
02:03 PM (MST)
56. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

It's an ecosystem; every plant and animal is "involved".

ClearCreek

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txhunter58
(5711 posts)
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Jan-14-17, 
02:06 PM (MST)
57. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Mystery??? figure out the numbers the wolves are eating and add that back to the present numbers and see if there would still be such dismal numbers. Hmm. Not really a mystery at all. Sure there are other factors that will contribute to the ups and downs of their numbers, but it is called "kicking someone when they are down" Just makes things MUCH worse.

"Wolves have been around forever and the Elk and Bison weren't deleted by them"

Not sure if you were trying to say deleted or depleted. If the former, then you are correct, if the later, uh not so much. In fact they were responsible for keeping their numbers in check. In other words, with them there is NO need for hunting. And IN Yellowstone, that might be a good thing, but not out of Yellowstone.

Slice it any way you like it and try and divert, divert, divert, but the FACT is that wolves have had a MAJOR part in the demise of elk in Yellowstone. There is no denying that

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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wstrntines
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Jan-15-17, 
01:36 PM (MST)
58. "RE: Mystery of Yellowstone Elk"

Can't believe I payed 1.99 on youtube to watch a bunch of stupid libtards tell me they aren't sure if it's the wolves. They saw me coming.

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