CO NR Elk preference point debacle

OldMan2

OldMan2

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Just going thru 2017 Elk stats. Appears that NR with 20+ points drew 100 licenses. There were 2000 NR with 20+ points. At that rate, it will take 20 years for this group to draw out the most coveted Elk tags.
So, those with 6-20 points, consider your age and the above information. You may be better off burning your points on quality hunt that requires far less points. $40 $ $ $ ....... kching.
 
That's why I never got involved in the points rat race. I'm content with the low point units and the elk I get from them.

I feel bad for the guys who save for so long and get nothing for it.
 
This issue comes up all the time. Given license qoutas vs demand, the harsh reality is, not everyone who applies for those top areas will draw anytime soon, and in many cases never, no matter what system you have. Colorado's system does not allow for equity between all applicants, as those with the most points, often older, have a better chance. But, to change the system now would be unfair to guys who've been faithfully saving points all these years, according to many. The simple fact remains though, there just aren't enough tags to go around.
 
Absolutely correct HiMtnHntr. It doesn't help they only allocate up to 20% of the tags to NR. But they make up for that by charging us 14 times the resident elk fee and automatically add a $66 fishing license. (I don't care to fish in Oct/Nov. But that's just me)
Just suggesting NR?s assess where they are point wise and realize they most likely will never draw a premier tag. Thanks for your comments.
 
>This issue comes up all the
>time. Given license qoutas vs
>demand, the harsh reality is,
>not everyone who applies for
>those top areas will draw
>anytime soon, and in many
>cases never, no matter what
>system you have. Colorado's system
>does not allow for equity
>between all applicants, as those
>with the most points, often
>older, have a better chance.
>But, to change the system
>now would be unfair to
>guys who've been faithfully saving
>points all these years, according
>to many. The simple fact
>remains though, there just aren't
>enough tags to go around.
>

There actually is a simple fix. If you have an elk tag you lose your preference points. Whether otc, 1st choice, 2nd, etc. You lose them. No more creep.
 
You think? No more creep? I'm not convinced. Might help a bit, especially with residents. Plenty of nonresident's just playing the points and hunting elsewhere.
 
20 years try again
You forgot about the 1600+ people with 20+ points that only put in for a PP
 
I know lots of people would beg to differ but it would help people like me that have 17 pp if they would go to a point average system so that I could share points with family members (son, son inlaw, brother) that started late in the game and only have 2-3 points so we could hunt as a group on a lesser unit. Some might argue that it's an abuse of the system but I don't see it that way if I forked out the $ for all those years and get to share my points with the people I enjoy hunting with. It would help purge the system of all of us that are sitting in no- mans land. Just my opinion.
 
>20 years try again
>You forgot about the 1600+ people
>with 20+ points that only
>put in for a PP
>
You're delusional. Even if that were true in a given year, do you think those guys are gonna do that forever???? I'm sure they're just buying points because they have $$$$ burning a hole in their pocket and they're never really gonna use them. Get a clue, dude.
 
Maybe they could try that for a year and see what happens to odds, sort of like they did with Point Banking. I would expect those mid-range units would go up a bit. I am all for it as long as they add the caveat that all group members have to return the tag like Utah does.
 
I do. Wyoming is getting harder to get a general tag. So is Montana. So if guys want to guarantee they will be hunting elk every year in a decent state you have Idaho and Colorado that have OTC tags.

The problem I see is that there are opportunity hunters and there are trophy hunters. When you can build points and opportunity hunt (otc, 2nd choice, land owner voucher) every year then the opportunity hunters become trophy hunters and don't mind building points since they still get their opportunity to hunt every year. And the trophy hunters become opportunity hunters since they can get a tag when they want. Which increase's crowding in the otc units.

I do it myself. I've never applied for an elk tag in Colorado. Only points and I still kill elk there. In fact everyone I know that hunts elk in Colorado has never applied for a tag only points. I'm sure we aren't the only ones.

I could be way wrong and it won't affect the odds much at all. I tried finding the stats on how many non res otc elk hunters there were last year but I didn't see it on the P&W website. I figure probably at least 1/3-1/2 of the otc guys build points. Maybe someone could point me in the right direction for the non res otc numbers?

Also please everyone don't complain about the 20% non res cap. That's pretty generous compared to other states.

Maybe there is no fix. Maybe one day it will take 67 points to draw the top 5-6 units in the state.
 
"You're delusional. Even if that were true in a given year, do you think those guys are gonna do that forever???? I'm sure they're just buying points because they have $$$$ burning a hole in their pocket and they're never really gonna use them. Get a clue, dude."

http://cpw.state.co.us/Documents/Hunting/BigGame/Statistics/Elk/2017ElkDrawRecap.pdf

2017 Draw Recap Reports
2017 NR Pre draft Apps EP99999P (Preference points)
points
~~~~~~
29-1
28-1
27-6
26-22
25-93
24-161
23-217
22-280
21-338
20-494
~~~~~~~~
Total 1613 Apps

delusional? Maybe you should do a little research before you start talking out your AZZ. Are they going to do that forever? Well if you have put in for over 20+ years I think you will continue as long as possible and the $$$ you are talking about is one of the cheapest in the western states to build points. I don't know anyone who builds points just because they have money with no intentions to ever hunt there that is just retarded. The way Colorado is set up there are not enough "Premium" tags to go through all the high point pools so some people will drop out do to Health issues and possibly death but it will take years and some will settle for a lesser unit. Most of these point holders ( me included )started with the hope of Hunting the northwest corner one day but as time goes on they are falling back to one of the unit 61 hunts or possibly unit 40. Unit 61 Archery gives 14 NR tags it doesn't take many people to drop in and point creep continues. I have been Hunting "out of state" for 33 years and have Hunted most all western states believe me I have a Clue.
 
Himtnhntr hit the nail on the head, its really not that complicated and I don't believe its unfair either. If you play the point game (I do in every state that allows) you should know what your strategy is and commit to it. Also understand things can and will change over time when it comes to how states manage their systems (AZ a couple years ago). Another example of a point disaster is bighorn sheep points (simple supply and demand imbalance). Most would think I'm crazy at 37 yrs of age and having only 8-10 pts in places like mt, wy, co, etc to keep playing the game. I know going in what it costs and what the odds are. I think of it as a lottery ticket each year and hope that somewhere down the road possibly decades from now I either get lucky or they make a change to the point system that benefits someone like me that started in his 20's and stuck with it. If not its a contribution to conservation...

I cashed 12 pts in CO last year along with my two brothers and our dad. We went 3/4 on 330 class bulls from an archery hunt. Why wait 20 yrs...
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-18 AT 12:02PM (MST)[p]I do think there are some strategies the cpw could implement to help alleviate the issues with the current system, but to think the top tier areas would become much easier to draw is a stretch. There just aren't enough tags.

I think losing points for any elk tag is an interesting idea. I was also a fan of points banking when they did it in 06, and I'd support it again. But there is a deep divide there between low point vs. High point holders. The cpw's new policy of cheap applications is going to muck things up pretty good, especially for nonresidents. Lower point areas are going to be hit hardest. From a NR perspective, why not apply for points in CO? The answer is easy.
 
Spot on HiMtnHntr. I remember the 06 point banking. I believe the CO DOW could come up with a number of viable, yet fair alternatives to burning your NR points. I like the family idea. Being in my upper 60?s, having 20+ NR points, it would be great to share those points with my wife and pick a ?good? unit to hunt. I no longer need to chase monsters.
Btw hunted CO last year 3rd season OTC and loved every moment of it. Saw a legal bull, didn't get a shot. That's hunting.
 
I liked the idea of point banking that the CPOW implemented for 1 season. I think people were to impatient and did not allow the program to play out. Units that took 3 points to draw suddenly took 5 points the year of point banking. And according to the hunter survey sent out by the CPOW, the #1 thing hunters wanted was predictability in when they would draw. If they just let things play out for a few years things would have stabilized and there would be less people with a large number of preference points who enjoyed multiple hunts (buying multiple licenses).

I also wish the CPOW would require a hunter to use his preference points when purchasing a premium hunt tag either through the RFW program or land owner voucher system. Guys are accumulating preference points and still hunting premium units just because they can afford to pay the price.

Just my 2 cents worth
 
Problem is point banking will increase point creep in the mid to low tier units. Now some guys with 20+ points will drop down and hunt unit 40. But since they have 20 plus they are still ahead of the kid that starts applying that year or in a couple years. So now all of a sudden unit 40 is a 20+ point unit. Same with 49.

Averaging points increases point creep also. If someone with 20 points uses them on unit 40 they lose them. If averaging was implemented then the guy with 20 applys with his buddy that has 6 and essentially the guy with 20 draws two unit 40 tags.

Just like Wyoming. If I have max points I can help someone else draw region G. Instead of just me hunting 1 tag with max points now my buddy that had zero points also got a g tag since we applied partners. So the guy with 5 points doesn't draw this year increasing it to 6 points to draw the next year.

Allowing multiple people to draw with one persons points. Or allowing one person to draw multiple tags without resetting them to zero will increase point creep. Which is fine if the intention is to give the people with the most points more options for multiple tags. If the intention is to reduce point creep neither one of those options will reduce point creep.

If you get an elk tag in Colorado then you lose your points. That will reduce creep.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-11-18 AT 07:48PM (MST)[p]Short term issue, I think more point jump than point creep. Things would stabilize eventually once the points are gone. I would be against point sharing in any form.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-18 AT 12:07PM (MST)[p]Just so NR?s understand that ?most? applicants with say, 10-19 points, will never draw units 2, 201, or 10 in their lifetime. A quick peek at stats indicates NR?s with 22+ points will draw those tags over the next 12 years, based on NR applicants.

42,110 NR applied for ?a? preference point last year. Short term issue?
Good news is that did generate $1,680,000 in revenue for the CPW.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-12-18 AT 12:16PM (MST)[p]Only way to fix this is have hunters lose their points for any license drawn, have a waiting period on high demand tags in designated trophy areas, and change the preference points to bonus points...and then you can debate whether to square them or not to benefit the guys that have been in the pool the longest. That way it is at least possible to draw a high demand unit the first year, but still benefits those that have been in the game the longest. The guys w/ the most points will cry foul but no where were they ever guaranteed a tag in their lifetime that was put into writing. Something has to give eventually, not fair to the kids or grandkids.

I'm okay with these rules just affecting the NRs.
 
make the whole state a draw, allocate the tags based on herd data, raise res license fees, make antlerless lic otc with cap for residents. majority of point problem solved
 
Sure wish they would do point averaging also as it would help manage my family hunts and hunts with a couple good friends.
 
SoloDawg hit that nail on the head, SOME of us will be grouping a hunt with friends and family to draw out with our 8-14 points that are going to be used on some units that can be drawn with 10-12 points.
1 guy 14 pts
1 guy 14 pts
1 guy 8 Pts
1 guy 8 pts
So that we drop some us of the point race. That is how we are going to face the arms/point races.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Oilcan is right! Over 1600 guys with 20 or more points just putting in for points only is insane! Imo unless you are a year or 2 out from drawing I would pick the best hunt I could get with the points I have and go hunt!
 
I think that is the only option to fix this madness is to make every unit a draw.

I would make the whole state a draw and manage for a slightly older age class animal and a bit better bull to cow ratio. Is anyone else concerned that there might not be enough bulls to breed the cows right now? Any legal bull is getting hammered from September through November in OTC units.

Then the only way to get the top point users to start using points is to allow point averaging or point banking or hoping they die off at some point. Maybe you can add 1 point penalty to either option for each person using that service to help out on point creep a bit.
 
Making the entire state a draw would help but not as much as allowing applicants to average points. If averaging was allowed I'd probably take my 16 elk pts and share them with a friend on a hunt. I'm sure quite a few others would too. Especially those that are in the 14 to 22 pts range.
 
Point averaging is a horrible idea! It would benefit those with lots of points but units with low draw odds would point leap rather than just point creep! Point banking is another horrible idea for the same reasons.

If you look at a Colo elk unit map there currently aren't that many units that offer limited tags. There are a high percentage of units that offer OTC tags. If Colo seriously wants to help hunters draw tags on a fairly regular basis they would switch over to all draws. The CPW switched over to all draw for deer many years ago. It improved draw odds, improved the quality bucks, and improved crowded hunting conditions. The CPW can also now manage deer and hunter numbers...which was impossible with OTC tags.
 
Deer is all draw in Colorado. Do you think it's any better than what elk has right now?

I find it a lot harder to get a deer tag if you want to hunt deer every year.
 
You are doing something wrong if you can't draw Colo deer just about every year...especially if you are open to archery hunting! If are applying for the toughest late season tags in Colo to draw it takes more pts to draw but there are lots of great options. There are quite a few scattered units across the state that take 0 to 2 pref pts. I can't say the same for elk! Obviously if you are a Colo resident it takes fewer pts to draw than a nonres but nonres still have options.
 
Jim.........I'm too old to camp anymore. So, I only hunt the units I can drive to the hunting areas each morning. That limits the tags I can apply for.

Elk and bear tags are easy to get. Deer can be difficult sometimes. Not that i'm too upset about it. I'm more of an elk hunter than deer. I love elk meat.
 

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