Muzzleloader Whisperer needed

Have access to:
Winchester x-150
Knight MK 85
CVA Accura

Just dont have the time, know-how or inclination to dial one of these in. Same as Im not a re-loader,I just want the loaded shells. Anyone spend a lot of time with muzzy's and would be interested in sighting one of these in to 200 yards? Im in the SLC area.

How old are you?

IMO, anyone who is not willing to put in the time just needs to hunt with a gun that takes store bought shells. If you aren't willing, then not sure why you should hunt the season. Instant gratification and blackpowder hunting don't really go together.

Opinions vary

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

I agree, this is a sport that is not instant gratification. Learning to clean,shoot, and sighting in this rifles is part of the whole game. Attempting to get out of most of it is a sign that this might not be the sport for you.

Last year I tried the smoke pole thing for the first time. There is differently a learning curve to it. You must spend some time adjusting to shooting and cleaning it,but it can be extremely fun if you put the time into it. Good luck.

Opinions do vary. Here's one man's.
I bought a Fred Bear Brown Bear bow in 1981. I was 13. No one in my family hunted, let alone bow hunted. That bow, with sporting goods store-bought arrows, and myself as the operator, couldn't hit a paper plate consistently to save my life. Consequently, I never became too keen on the sport. No confidence in humanely taking game.

In the late 90's a friend said I need to shoot this new bow that was made by a company named Mathews. IMHO and for me that bow was a game changer. I've happily hunted with it for 20 years. It actually hits what one aims at.
So in my view, the bow and rifle manufacturers, are producing now "moa" out-of-the-box products but the muzzleloading manufacturers don't appear to be.

Maybe what Gunwerks is doing with muzzy's and has done with rifles will make other manufacturers produce comparable products for less. That is, produce an out of the box muzzleloader with an already-dialed in load that also hits where it's aimed. Isnt that the goal after all? More accurate weapon = more humane kills =less wounded animals?

Until then, I imagine the arrow fletcher's, the fly tiers and particularly, the muzzy purists of the world are just fine with the status quo.

I decided 18 years ago to get into the muzzleloader thing. I went to Sportsmans and bought a few hundred bucks worth of mostly useless ML stuff. Then read a bit on it and went out for the trial and error. A lot of error and frustration for sure, but I did figure it out and along with the errors and time spent came a lot of satisfaction and pride in getting it mastered and being able to punch holes in a quarter taped to a tree at 50 yards with open sights. Muzzle loading is definitely not for the "want it, and want it perfect right now" type. Good luck, and enjoy the satisfaction of being able to get your muzzleloader to perform. That's half the fun.

Let me know if you decide the X150 isn't for you.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-03-17 AT 09:17PM (MST)[p]
Get used to disappointment. Muzzleloaders are not going to make the leap like bows and arrows did. Even with $2000 guns you have to work at a load. You might get lucky right out of the box with powder and bullet, but don't count on it. Too many different powders and bullets. To most of us, that is part of the allure.

I actually made the stock for my first blackpowder gun, worked up the load, and killed an elk with it. That may not be your cup of tea, and that is OK, but what you are asking is not what most people who get into blackpowder for.

I also bought a Fred Bear recurve bow when I was about the same age in the early 70s. Can't tell you how many hours I practiced after school. I did get accurate with it and killed a few deer before I moved on to a Matthews bow. And my first bow was with instinctive shooting, no sight.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

When game departments put in ML hunts they are limiting technology. They don't want 1000 yard rifles with 20X scopes. As is the case in Idaho they limit the acceptable rifles and gear.

That said, you listed a MK85. That rifle is quite capable of shooting to 200 yards accurately.
This is an MK85 that is legal under the Idaho laws.





This is a picture of my son shooting that rifle at 250 yards.



That rifle shoots a paper patched bullet that is sized to fit the barrel.

This rifle was built about 10 years ago. It also is a Idaho legal rifle. It is accurate out to 300 yards.
It shoots a paper patched 11mm rifle bullet.



I have other rifles that I built well over a decade ago that are more than capable of shooting to 300 yards.

There have been muzzleloaders built that will shoot to 1000 yards and they were built in the 1860's. Those rifles are still made today and they are still shooting 1000 yard matches with them. New companies with ballistic calculators and all the bells and whistles were not even thought of yet when the Whitworth rifle was shooting 1000 yards at targets.
But even with those super accurate rifles the shooters still have to develop loads. Yes there is a lot of info out there on loads and bullets and shooters have a lot of options and help available that guys back then just didn't have.

My load for the MK85 and other fast twist rifles, is about as turn key as a load can get. It has worked in every gun I have tried it in. The secret is there is no plastic to foul the barrel. There is no lead to foul the barrel. And the bullet is protected 100% until it leaves the barrel.

And last the sights are adjustable for the shot at hand. If the shot is 75 you set the sight for 75. If the shot is 135 you set the sight for as close to 135 as you can. In all cases you aim dead on no hold over. This is technology that was around back in the 1800's.

The info for this system is here on this site. It is also in many places on the internet if you look me up. Also I have video's showing making the bullets, shooting the gun, cleaning the gun care and maintenance. I have been giving away this info for a dozen years. Many guys have used it to make their rifles shoot better. Once and a while I get a guy that wants me to set up a rifle, and provide all the equipment for making the bullets. Most of the time I don't do it.

I just set up a older MK85 a couple weeks ago for a close friend. The new owner had never shot a ML in his life. He was hitting the center of the target at 50, 100 and 150 yards in about 10 bullets.

The technology is out there for accurate muzzleloaders. Even with all the technology in the world the owner still has to sight the gun in for how he shoots. He still has to clean it. And in the case for the way I set guns up, the shooter also has to make the bullets.

You said that the Purists are fine with the Status Quo. That is not entirely true. On some ML sites I am thought of as a demon that is ruining traditional muzzleloading. In others I am thought of as Daniel Boon.
I am neither. To be honest I have only a slight interest in the history of the sport. Mostly in the long range weapons and the technology. I only have interest in hunting with a rifle that performs like a rifle should. Hit's what it is aimed at, and is easy to maintain.
Plenty of guys want that too but there is no easy way to get it.

You might consider changing your request to asking for a starting point in a particular rifle for a particular game animal. You will get "loads" of info (pun intended) and you might get lucky on the first try. Many do, or they wouldn't still be making powder Pellets.

Besides, with a name like yours, you have a lot to live up to.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

I started with a Cabelas Hawken, bought a Green Mountain barrel and struggled to get it to shoot accurately. Later I realized it was the sight system. A simple thin front blade decreased groups by 2/3s.

When I drew a Nevada muzzy elk tag, I upgraded. Based mostly from advice from Mountain Gander on this site. He advised my to get the CVA Accura, try BH209 with a 338 he Power Belt. I tried several different sabots (Barnes and Hornady) plus the Power Belt. The Power Belt was the most accurate. I mounted a scope, shot the gun with various loads and settled on the 338 Power Belt with 100 grs BH 209. With the scope mounted, sub 2" groups.

I sighted the gun in so it would strike just barely above the front sight at 100 yards. I was going to upgrade the sight system but after repeatedly shooting 3", 3 shot groups at 100 yards, left stock sights on.

I was 13" low at 200 yards and 23" low at 250.

I decided my max range was 250. At 200 I could still hold on hair, 250 was going to be a challenge since I had to hold over and the target was hidden by the sight.

I missed a great bull (320") 5 pointer at 100 yards because of the primitive weapon. I had 20+ elk milling 90-100 yards away. I aimed at the bull with a standing rest. As I was starting to squeeze the trigger I thought I saw movement of my target but the bull was standing still. I looked over the sights and realized a cow's hindquarters were in front of the bull's chest. I had an oh crap moment realizing what I had almost done. As the cow moved, I quickly pulled the trigger, probably jerking it. Clean miss as I watched the entire herd climb the opposite side of the canyon, the bull constantly bugling and herding his cows.

With a scoped weapon, I could have easily seen if anything was in front of the bull but focusing on the front sight and bull's chest narrowed my focus from seeing anything else. Then not wanting another elk to get in the way, I rushed my shot.

Next day I shot a 300" bull in the chest, straight on, at 140 yards. Dead in his tracks. Although I passed this bull 4 days earlier, and I "settled " for this bull with 2 days left, it was a great hunt.

Sorry for getting off topic. The things I wanted to express were, 1) I got great advice on MM from Mountain Gander 2) I shot 200 plus rounds through the gun to develop a load and learn what the gun and I could do 3) it's a primitive weapon so there are limits.

I would have had no confidence in the gun or my abilities if someone else had set the gun up for. And less satisfaction too.

LAST EDITED ON Jun-04-17 AT 06:56PM (MST)[p]You allude to another point Kali. If my brother and I switch guns, we can shoot good groups, but the POI is different. The way you hold/grip the gun and pull the trigger makes a difference.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

Exactly.

And where is the satisfaction if you don't do it yourself?

But asking an "expert " to assist you can speed the process IF you listen to him.

This has to be one of the most pathetic requests ever on Monster Muleys. Figure it out or give it up. If someone sights in your muzzy for you, you most likely won't be able to hit crap with it anyways, because you won't understand what it takes to load, shoot and clean it correctly.

And I disagree with his last post too. The 209 ignition systems (where legal) have significantly improved accuracy and reliability. Quicker, more consistent ignition results in accuracy and hotter ignition results in more reliability.

I too started with a Fred Bear recurve in 1972. First upgrade was aluminum ar

Tx, Idahoron, and Kali, thanks for your advice. Your points are well made, your advice appreciated. One-eye Bob, yours were not.

Brorblixen,

I'm only a muzzy hunter when I draw a tag, and I only apply for muzzy hunts when it gives me a significantly better chance to draw.

But there are some experts on here that can really increase your learning curve.

I shoot as advanced a weapon as the law allows. Idahoron is way more of a traditionalist. But when I draw that Idaho muzzy tag this year, I'll be picking his brain since Idaho doesn't allow the 209 primer guns.

So research old posts for the weapon type you plan on using , then PM them.

My experience is most are very helpful.

Or use the gun, powder, bullet I mentioned above it will get the job done.

Can't let this die until I reply to TX.

I was a teenager when I had that Fred Bear bow. I'd shot left handed with a Red Wing Hunter prior to that. But I was 16 so I transitioned to my Dads #52 Lbs bow, right handed, Fred Bear. Shot it every day all summer. In deer camp I could outshoot every man, including Dad.

For 2 years I would shoot 2 dozen arrows and never kill anything. I learned, "aim small, miss small in 1975. That and aluminum arrows and it was on!

In 1975 and 1976 I killed 3 bucks and a cow elk. Then came compounds. I had to learn to shoot with sights. Things died.8

1978-1999 I didn't pick up a rifle.

Now 90% of my hunting is rifle, 5% muzzy and 5% archery.