What could cause this?
- Thread starter buckhorn
- Start date
Hunt_the_West
Active Member
- Messages
- 363
LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-17 AT 06:12PM (MST)[p]What gun is this out of and 105gr by volume or by weight?
What size groups were you getting at 100?
I would guess barrel fouling leading to seating depth of your bullet, but with blackhorn that shouldn't be an issue. With only five shots.
Barrel could be warming up if shot quickly in succession. If the barrel cooled to ambient before next shot this would be eliminated.
Mounts/scope could be walking?
What size groups were you getting at 100?
I would guess barrel fouling leading to seating depth of your bullet, but with blackhorn that shouldn't be an issue. With only five shots.
Barrel could be warming up if shot quickly in succession. If the barrel cooled to ambient before next shot this would be eliminated.
Mounts/scope could be walking?
buckhorn
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,665
The gun is the original Remington 700ML stainless with the Badger Ridge 209 conversion.
Blackhorn 209 105gr. volume.
2 inch groups at 100 yds
For this 300 yd 5 shot group I shot early in the morning but the temp. was rising rapidly.I waited at least 5 min. between shots while I drove out to mark the target and back and to reload but the barrel was getting warmer after each shot.
I was pushing the bullet down on the powder pretty hard and likely increased the push more and more. Could the rise in barrel temp. and pressure on the powder make that much difference?
Blackhorn 209 105gr. volume.
2 inch groups at 100 yds
For this 300 yd 5 shot group I shot early in the morning but the temp. was rising rapidly.I waited at least 5 min. between shots while I drove out to mark the target and back and to reload but the barrel was getting warmer after each shot.
I was pushing the bullet down on the powder pretty hard and likely increased the push more and more. Could the rise in barrel temp. and pressure on the powder make that much difference?
Hunt_the_West
Active Member
- Messages
- 363
LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-17 AT 08:14PM (MST)[p]Simple answer is yes it could. Some of the older 700s only had a 24" barrel. If yours is one of these particular models you could be having a powder burn rate issue with the blackhorn. I.e your powder isn't burning all the way prior to the bullet exiting the muzzle. With only 105 by volume this may not be the issue though. I know bullets are expensive but you may be better served to weigh out your charges (look at their conversion tables) and do a little load development for your rifle. I'm not insinuating you haven't already done this because you may have. The gun is probabaly capable but may require a little finesse. As a side note I have played with a couple of the new ultimate remys and they are impressive with the blackhorn powder and Parker bullets. The Barnes shot well also.
*make a nice mark on your ramrod with a piece of tape when trying different loads and a more permanent mark when you find "the load" to make sure you are seating that bullet in the same location each time. Compressing the powder as you described above could definitely cause your problems if it's not done the same each time.
*make a nice mark on your ramrod with a piece of tape when trying different loads and a more permanent mark when you find "the load" to make sure you are seating that bullet in the same location each time. Compressing the powder as you described above could definitely cause your problems if it's not done the same each time.
elkassassin
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 36,974
Do Not SCREW With Gun or the LOAD!
When You Miss the Bucks/Bulls Run Further Away & You Have Auto-Compensating Trajectory!
[Font][Font color = "blue"]Ah yes we have insider trading and computer dating but I never goin for that!
Ain't no machine pickin out my Queen cause it may not have all the facts!
I've got my own taste and my own ways I'd rather not talk about
and my private life is my private life and they ain't gonna find out!
When You Miss the Bucks/Bulls Run Further Away & You Have Auto-Compensating Trajectory!
[Font][Font color = "blue"]Ah yes we have insider trading and computer dating but I never goin for that!
Ain't no machine pickin out my Queen cause it may not have all the facts!
I've got my own taste and my own ways I'd rather not talk about
and my private life is my private life and they ain't gonna find out!
Do you feel a different in force need to load between shoots?
My sabotless gun does this with bh209.
If I start with a clean barrel and relatively loose bullets. it creates less pressure and slower velocity (chrongraphed) and slowly gets fast and higher point of impact until about 6 shots then it levels off. I see 24 fps difference from 1 to 6 (6 being highest with a .458 344gr bullet.
I would shoot one shoot clean and one quick follow up like a hunting. Keep track of which is which, fully clean, dry and cool then repeat 2 more times. That will tell you if you have consistent cold bore and if you need to adjust for a follow up and if it's consistent.
My gun is .5 Moa high and a .25 moa right on second shoot vs clean/cold shoot.
My sabotless gun does this with bh209.
If I start with a clean barrel and relatively loose bullets. it creates less pressure and slower velocity (chrongraphed) and slowly gets fast and higher point of impact until about 6 shots then it levels off. I see 24 fps difference from 1 to 6 (6 being highest with a .458 344gr bullet.
I would shoot one shoot clean and one quick follow up like a hunting. Keep track of which is which, fully clean, dry and cool then repeat 2 more times. That will tell you if you have consistent cold bore and if you need to adjust for a follow up and if it's consistent.
My gun is .5 Moa high and a .25 moa right on second shoot vs clean/cold shoot.
buckhorn
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,665
I started with a clean cold bore did one foul shot and then the five shot group.
I wish I could have shot more that day but the air was warming up fast and the barrel was warming up as well. Also it was Sunday morning and I needed to get back home.I haven't clean the gun yet so I'm thinking about shooting it again before cleaning and see how it does. I I am surprised at the 11 inch over all rise. I know I was pressing harder on the ramrod but I don't think there was that much difference. Maybe so though?
I wish I could have shot more that day but the air was warming up fast and the barrel was warming up as well. Also it was Sunday morning and I needed to get back home.I haven't clean the gun yet so I'm thinking about shooting it again before cleaning and see how it does. I I am surprised at the 11 inch over all rise. I know I was pressing harder on the ramrod but I don't think there was that much difference. Maybe so though?
Cahunter805
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,348
How hard you seat the bullet has a big effect on grouping. Try to use even pressure and seat them all the same.
I recommend using a Spin Jag. They work great. Also I've noticed Barnes sabots aren't the most consistent. I like the harvestor sabots much better.
I assume your using a scope? Are you dialing range? Using BDC type reticle?
I recommend using a Spin Jag. They work great. Also I've noticed Barnes sabots aren't the most consistent. I like the harvestor sabots much better.
I assume your using a scope? Are you dialing range? Using BDC type reticle?
Give it another try but swab between shots. As we progress to the heavier charges of BH209 it does start to produce powder fouling buildup in the bore. With the very heavy loads 95+ gr by weight swabbing is necessary for consistency at long range.
Are you holding the rifle the same way for each shot? Are you using a bipod? With your shots very close then the jump to the next level, it looks like you are placing the forearm in different places on the front rest. If it is a loading difference, I would expect the 1/2 and 3/4 shots to be farther apart.
Are you holding the rifle the same way for each shot? Are you using a bipod? With your shots very close then the jump to the next level, it looks like you are placing the forearm in different places on the front rest. If it is a loading difference, I would expect the 1/2 and 3/4 shots to be farther apart.
buckhorn
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,665
huntbambi
Thanks for the reply. I am shooting off of proctor bags filled with number nine lead shot so I have a good steady rest but could possibly be in a different spot each time on the bags? I will swab between each shot next time. Also I am measuring my powder by volume and will try weitghing next time as well.
Thanks again
Thanks for the reply. I am shooting off of proctor bags filled with number nine lead shot so I have a good steady rest but could possibly be in a different spot each time on the bags? I will swab between each shot next time. Also I am measuring my powder by volume and will try weitghing next time as well.
Thanks again
buckhorn
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,665
Cahunter805
The scope I have on my gun is just for developing a load since I'm hunting in Nevada and scopes aren't legal I will have to take it off and use Peepsight. It is a 3 x 9 Leopold. I'm not sure what a spin Jag is but that does sound interesting? Also I'm interested in the harvester Sabots are they with or without a bullet?
The scope I have on my gun is just for developing a load since I'm hunting in Nevada and scopes aren't legal I will have to take it off and use Peepsight. It is a 3 x 9 Leopold. I'm not sure what a spin Jag is but that does sound interesting? Also I'm interested in the harvester Sabots are they with or without a bullet?
Cahunter805
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,348
LAST EDITED ON Jul-01-17 AT 11:32PM (MST)[p]The spin jag is a great tool. Helps loading a lot.
Here are the sabots.
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/index.php/products/crush-rib-sabots/itemlist/tag/CRS 50 cal
I use the yellow ones with the Barnes TMZ since they are designed for boat tail bullets.
If you contact them they will send you sample packs to try in your rifle.
Here are the sabots.
https://www.harvestermuzzleloading.com/index.php/products/crush-rib-sabots/itemlist/tag/CRS 50 cal
I use the yellow ones with the Barnes TMZ since they are designed for boat tail bullets.
If you contact them they will send you sample packs to try in your rifle.
buckhorn
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,665
Thanks guys for all the helpful replies. It appears the problem was that I had the stock bolts too tight and with the heating of the gun it caused the rise in shot group I did a little shaving to give the barrel some clearance and torque the screws to 35 pounds each. The problem seems to be solved. I am going to try the harvester yellow Sabots with the TMZ bullets just for the heck of it. However buying from harvester is expensive due to the shipping. Thanks again for all the helpful advice.
kalielkslayer
Active Member
- Messages
- 540
Check the clearance between your stock and barrel!
Take a dollar bill, fold it longways, wrap it around your barrel and slide it between your barrel and stock.
You should be able to slide to first action screw.
If not, remove stock and file it down until you can. Then tighten rear screw first, front screw last. Then try it.
Take a dollar bill, fold it longways, wrap it around your barrel and slide it between your barrel and stock.
You should be able to slide to first action screw.
If not, remove stock and file it down until you can. Then tighten rear screw first, front screw last. Then try it.
buckhorn
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,665
Thanks
kali
hntbambl
Cahunter
elkaker
Hunt_the_West
And yes thanks to you too elkass
I found the cause and corrected it and I am now shooting with open sights. I have the Williams FRP with target knobs on the rear and a Lyman globe on the front. I made a custom insert for the globe by filing out the center of one of the dots and soldering a fine wire cross hair in and it's
really well.
Thanks again for all your help.
kali
hntbambl
Cahunter
elkaker
Hunt_the_West
And yes thanks to you too elkass
I found the cause and corrected it and I am now shooting with open sights. I have the Williams FRP with target knobs on the rear and a Lyman globe on the front. I made a custom insert for the globe by filing out the center of one of the dots and soldering a fine wire cross hair in and it's
really well.
Thanks again for all your help.
