black powder hunters, going to Colorado for the M.L.season real soon and was doing some target practice last evening. Using my model Remington 700 .54 caliber with an after market 209 primer ignition kit put in it. 90 grains of BH 209 and a 518 grain No Excuses bullet with wool pad in between. The weapon was clean and I fired one HOT Federal 209 primer thru it and loaded. When I squeezed the trigger-----CLICK. What in the world. Put in another primer and repeat CLICK....took the bolt out and breech plug and removed the bullet and powder...Cleaned everything good......new primer and new powder and fired off another shot...Same Click. Someone told me a few ago that I should always tamp the bullet and powder snugly and I tamped the load again and this time I put some good pressure on the ramrod. Aimed and fired! Perfect ignition. Re-loaded with same load and a good tamp job and Ka-BOOM again. shot four more at the 100 yard distance with perfect ignition each and every time........would some of you say that the Black Horn powder MUST be tamped somewhat firmly into the barrel? I did not tamp with authority that first or second load.....after the mis-fires, I did tamp with some power downward. Any comments or concerns? Have any of you had this similar situation????
BH 209 Powder: Does This Powder Have To Be Tamped Real Tight in the Barrel?
- Thread starter Cow Tag
- Start date
The hot Federal primer was destroyed. cannot really explain the noise involved. I would say more of a POP than just a click. I think my rifle was clean with the breech plug and adapter device clean and clear/open. I believe that the powder must be tamped hard to get proper ignition. I believe that I had all of the variables X'd out.
utahbigbull
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Been shooting BH for years pushing Barnes TEZ's out of me and my son's Thompsons. Never do anything besides seat it with a firm pressure with the rod. Never had an issue or need to tamp it.
littlebull209338
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Was your breech plug clean? Go to Blackthorn web sight and there is an excellent video on how to clean it.
txhunter58
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The only time I didn't get it firmly on the powder, it still partially ignited the powder and pushed the bullet out of the end of the barrel, about 6 ft!
I guess I would double check that the primer pocket is clean by cleaning with a drill bit and be sure you can see thru the flame hole in the breechplug.
BH 209 definitely needs to be packed pretty tight, but all I have ever had to do was lean on the ramrod about 3 times when I seat the bullet. But I have a ramrod that has a T handle on it, so can put quite a bit of pressure just by leaning.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
I guess I would double check that the primer pocket is clean by cleaning with a drill bit and be sure you can see thru the flame hole in the breechplug.
BH 209 definitely needs to be packed pretty tight, but all I have ever had to do was lean on the ramrod about 3 times when I seat the bullet. But I have a ramrod that has a T handle on it, so can put quite a bit of pressure just by leaning.
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
Texas Hunter, Everything was clean on my rifle. I truly believe that I did not apply enough down pressure on the ramrod while loading. My ramrod is not the T-handle type and is more of a cleaning ramrod than a loading rod. I believe that I failed to apply enough down pressure. Do not take me incorrectly here--I did apply down pressure and did pack my load but when the load failed to ignite and I than applied quite a bit of pressure and the weapon discharged. I will give my rifle three good pushes on the ramrod from now on. I believe that the lack of a good push was the reason for my ignition situation. Going to unit 61 again soon carrying this Remington model 700 in .54. Big and slow is the word.
Buckhorn, my adapter kit is not the Badger Ridge kit. prob similar but not that one. never had a problem with my rifle before today. the breech plug hole and the primer holder hole were CLEAN. Perhaps, I should purchase the Badger Ridge adapter kit? any comments on your Badger Ridge?
elkassassin
Long Time Member
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Hey cowtag!
If The Primer is going Off there had to be an obstruction in the Breech Plug!
I Think I've Warned you a Time or two?
To Clean a Bolt Properly the Bolt Must be dis-assembled on Early Remington 700 Muzzleloaders!
I've Seen some NASTY looking Parts inside the Bolt Due to not being properly Cleaned!
If Yours is SMACKING the Primer Properly this isn't your Problem!
Just Warning you on proper Bolt Cleaning!
Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!
A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!
If The Primer is going Off there had to be an obstruction in the Breech Plug!
I Think I've Warned you a Time or two?
To Clean a Bolt Properly the Bolt Must be dis-assembled on Early Remington 700 Muzzleloaders!
I've Seen some NASTY looking Parts inside the Bolt Due to not being properly Cleaned!
If Yours is SMACKING the Primer Properly this isn't your Problem!
Just Warning you on proper Bolt Cleaning!
Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!
A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!
buckhorn
Very Active Member
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cowtag
The badger Ridge kit doesn't allow hardly any blowback. I have shot several hundred rounds with it and checked my bolt assembly often but it really isn't getting dirty. Before the conversion when I was shooting Pyrodex I had to clean it constantly to prevent corrosion but not anymore.
The only thing I would do differently is I wish I would have bought the complete bolt and breech plug kit.I bought the kit that used my original bolt but now I don't have one to use in Idaho for instance where they don't allow Blackhorn powder or 209 primers. So now if I hunt Idaho I will have to buy another original bolt For percussion caps again. The price wasn't really that much different I just didn't think of it at the time.
The badger Ridge kit doesn't allow hardly any blowback. I have shot several hundred rounds with it and checked my bolt assembly often but it really isn't getting dirty. Before the conversion when I was shooting Pyrodex I had to clean it constantly to prevent corrosion but not anymore.
The only thing I would do differently is I wish I would have bought the complete bolt and breech plug kit.I bought the kit that used my original bolt but now I don't have one to use in Idaho for instance where they don't allow Blackhorn powder or 209 primers. So now if I hunt Idaho I will have to buy another original bolt For percussion caps again. The price wasn't really that much different I just didn't think of it at the time.
I have had the best success with BH209 by seating with 30 pounds of pressure. I put the butt of the rifle on a bathroom scale and seated a powder charge and bullet until I got 30 pounds. I did that a few times to get the feel and do that on every reload.
When you have a primer only shot it will move the bullet off of the powder. You need to reseat the bullet firmly on the powder to get it to go off.
When you have a primer only shot it will move the bullet off of the powder. You need to reseat the bullet firmly on the powder to get it to go off.
tailchasers
Long Time Member
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I aggressively tamp the crap outta BH209. Have had a few hang fires before doing this but now that I very firmly pack the charge this has been 100% eliminated. My routine is 12 stout tamps twice a day. I have had to construct my own ram rod palm as well since I have broken every one I have purchased in the past. My latest is made of deer antler similar as above and has lasted 3 seasons now.
"Courage is being scared to death but
saddling up anyway."
"Courage is being scared to death but
saddling up anyway."
txhunter58
Long Time Member
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LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-17 AT 12:46PM (MST)[p]
It also depends on how tight fitting the bullet is in the barrel. Slip fit conicals like No excuses may not hold pressure well and you should check to see that it is properly seated on the powder before each hunt. Putting a tight fitting wad between the powder and bullet might help
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
It also depends on how tight fitting the bullet is in the barrel. Slip fit conicals like No excuses may not hold pressure well and you should check to see that it is properly seated on the powder before each hunt. Putting a tight fitting wad between the powder and bullet might help
txhunter58
venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
the 518 grain .54 caliber pure lead NO Excuses bullet more or less just slide right down the barrel without hardly any effort on my part. My rifle is old and had been shot a lot so maybe a 1/1000th has been fired away from its bore? I truly believe that the primer holder and the breech plug were CLEAR and still the weapon failed to fire. After I tamped the load and powder down much more than usual, the rifle fired as it should. Using the HOT 209 Federal primer too. The wool pad that I am using is not tight fitting at all. Would anyone know of where I could purchase such a wad at (from)? Appreciate your advice or comments.
buckhorn
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I currently use the federal 209 A's as well. I have used the CCI magnum shotshell primers but didn't notice any difference between them and the federals. I liked the way the federal fits into my badger Ridge set up so that's what I shoot However when reloading for High-powered rifle's I've heard that hotter primers don't always result in better accuracy. Not sure if that pertains to muzzleloaders or not. My seven mag also likes federal primers.
deadibob
Long Time Member
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There are lots of tricks for bh209. Some breech plug designs just don't work with it. Check out modernmuzzleloader.com there is a primer chart that will help figure out dimensions, they aren't all the same thickness or height. Winchester 209's work best in my CVA's. I also started using o-rings last year and that helps both shim the primer and reduces blow-back.
Some breech plugs need modifying to work consistently with BH209. You will find everything you need to know on the website I mentioned. Good Luck.
Some breech plugs need modifying to work consistently with BH209. You will find everything you need to know on the website I mentioned. Good Luck.
Cowtag, your setup will work just fine with BH209 as long as you have a tight projectile to bore fit. I have a custom barrel on my .45 cal 700ML guns and I shot up to 105 by weight and a .45 caliber 350 gr Fury bullet with no ignition issues. The bullet to bore fit does not need to be super tight just firm one hand seating down the bore and a slight compression at the end is fine.
I second what "deadibob" stated above. Your problem could likely be the result of an improper primer. I shoot an Encore and had trouble with misfires. I tried two hotter primers and the problem continued. I called BH and they told me to try the regular Federal 209 primers in my particular gun. I haven't had any problems since then. Check your breech and see if you're getting much blow-back...that's an indicator of poor fit.
Good hunting!
Good hunting!
Frog, my primer looks like a hand grenade at the instant it explodes after I fire it. Burnt up, blackened, tore up, massacred, cankered, blown to pieces, and more. Could I have TOO much primer? I will push my ox-acetylene cutting torch little wire cleaner thru the primer holder and the breech plug HOLE each and every time before I load my Remington 700 M.L. rifle from now on.....if the hole is open (clear) then the weapon has to go BOOM.
It may not necessarily be too much primer...but more so the size of the primer. A poor fitting primer may not seal properly in your breech plug. This will allow the blast to blow the primer apart instead of directing all of the blast through the fire channel. I recommend contacting the manufacturer of your gun (or breech plug if you have aftermarket) and see what they recommend using. You can also contact Blackhorn...their pretty helpful. See the link below:
http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/primers/
Good hunting
http://www.blackhorn209.com/specs/primers/
Good hunting
deadibob
Long Time Member
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>Frog, my primer looks like a
>hand grenade at the instant
>it explodes after I fire
>it. Burnt up, blackened, tore
>up, massacred, cankered, blown to
>pieces, and more. Could I
>have TOO much primer? I
>will push my ox-acetylene cutting
>torch little wire cleaner thru
>the primer holder and the
>breech plug HOLE each and
>every time before I load
>my Remington 700 M.L. rifle
>from now on.....if the hole
>is open (clear) then the
>weapon has to go BOOM.
>
You are describing blow back. Your primer needs to be sealed off better or you will continue to have problems. Several ways to address this. Shim the primer hole of the breech plug with either rubber o-rings, metal shims or tighter fitting primers.
Your breech plug may also need to be modified.
>hand grenade at the instant
>it explodes after I fire
>it. Burnt up, blackened, tore
>up, massacred, cankered, blown to
>pieces, and more. Could I
>have TOO much primer? I
>will push my ox-acetylene cutting
>torch little wire cleaner thru
>the primer holder and the
>breech plug HOLE each and
>every time before I load
>my Remington 700 M.L. rifle
>from now on.....if the hole
>is open (clear) then the
>weapon has to go BOOM.
>
You are describing blow back. Your primer needs to be sealed off better or you will continue to have problems. Several ways to address this. Shim the primer hole of the breech plug with either rubber o-rings, metal shims or tighter fitting primers.
Your breech plug may also need to be modified.
What 209 primer adapter do you have? Do you install the primer in the breechplug or on the end of the bolt? That will make a big difference. The breechlug where you install the primer in the breechplus sucks big time! You will not get good performance with BH209 as it leaks way way way too much. Get a Badger Ridge and don't look back. It will transform your 700ML into a very usable muzzleloader.
I thought you already had a BR breechplug. It will not leak and creates a sealed breech.
I thought you already had a BR breechplug. It will not leak and creates a sealed breech.
