E-Tip bullet failure?

npaden · Oct 31, 2014

Okay, last year on my elk I shot at 50 or 60 yards, the petals actually peeled off the bullet and I recovered it on the opposite side skin on my bull. Not really a failure, but the bullet advertises 99.9% weight retention so I was surprised that all 4 petals pulled off like they did. Close range, high velocity, impacted the rib bones, so I guess not completely surprising though.

Here's a picture of that bullet with the petals pulled off (bottom) compared to one with the petals peeled back (top) like they are supposed to.

This year I was very surprised when walking up to my bull to see the bullet sticking out of the entry hole like it didn't even penetrate the skin. This shot was at 250 yards with a 7mm Rem Mag so it should have had plenty of velocity on impact, so I really haven't figured it out. I'm a firm believer in the "if an elk is still standing you keep shooting" saying so I actually shot the bull 3 times and not sure which of the 3 shots was the one that didn't make it through his shoulder. The other 2 shots were pass thrus a little lower and behind the shoulder.

Here are a couple pictures.

Of course I was in a hurry to get him quartered up and off the mountain before dark (and I didn't make it anyway), so I forgot to pull the bullet, but I'm pretty sure it would have had 4 really nice petals that actually kept it from penetrating all the way.

The bullet actually did not hit the shoulder bone, it made a hole all the way through the shoulder and even into the ribs a little way before I guess it bounced back out because it never actually fully penetrated the skin. I didn't do a very good autopsy to see how far it actually made it into the chest cavity, but I don't think it made it very far.

Both of the other 2 shots were probably fatal shots so the elk didn't go more than 15 or 20 yards, but this one has me scratching my head a little on my future bullet choices. I would hope that a shoulder shot with a 7mm Rem Mag on an elk would be a fatal shot, but not sure this one would have been.

Here's a bullet that I recovered from a mule deer a few years ago where the petals ended up staying fully extended instead of peeling back like a mushroom.

I'm guessing that the bullet on this years elk must have had all 4 petals go straight out like that and as a result make so much surface area that the bullet couldn't penetrate all the way through the skin.

Anyone with thoughts on this? Do I need to seriously start thinking about switching to a different bullet for elk?

Thanks, Nathan

sageadvice · Oct 31, 2014

This is a very timely thread. Lots of guys are switching over to mono bullets and more info on just how well they perform is needed.

Nice Pic's!!

Joey

"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"

440sixpack · Oct 31, 2014

I much prefer the TSX to the E Tip , for several reasons.

After trying a half dozen newfangled bullets on elk, for no reason since I enjoyed years of flawless results with the partition, I've returned to the Partition again for good.

Partitions aren't the best for the ultra long range shooter but for everyone else they just work, all the time. try them and you'll find out why they're still selling so well after all these years.

Stay thirsty my friends

Pre64 · Oct 31, 2014

Is it possible that is an exit wound and the bullet spun??

npaden · Oct 31, 2014

No chance that is an exit wound. That was the side of the elk that was facing me and the way the bullet was stuck in the skin it was obvious that it was the entry wound.

A head scratcher for me for sure. Just kicking myself for not recovering the bullet or doing a better autopsy job on it to figure out how far the bullet penetrated.

two7D · Oct 31, 2014

I've seen that exact thing happen on an exit side. Bullet turned around in the animal and started to exit tail first (Barnes). Makes no sense that the bullet failed to penetrate the hide.

sagebrush · Oct 31, 2014

The failure to penetrate would cause me to change. What if that was a once in a lifetime trophy with no chance for a follow up? I get to spend too little time in the pursuit of game and have far too few opportunities to take a trophy to risk the chance of a bullet failure.

When I saw your title about a bullet failure, I thought "Oh boy here we go again. Some guy doesn't like the shape or weight of the bullet recovered from a thoroughly dead animal". To your credit, your experience is what I would call a bullet "failure". A good hit on an animal under the proper conditions that did not have a fatal result.

WapitiBob · Oct 31, 2014

A bullet from a 7 mag at 250 yards will penetrate into the cavity even if it's laying sideways. I'd be more inclined to look at the load than the bullet.

need4x4 · Nov 1, 2014

>A bullet from a 7 mag
>at 250 yards will penetrate
>into the cavity even if
>it's laying sideways. I'd be
>more inclined to look at
>the load than the bullet.
>

what he said.

DW · Nov 1, 2014

Are these the new all copper bullets?

440sixpack · Nov 1, 2014

Yes.

They're basically a piece of copper wire with a plastic tip. I can't imagine why they don't work perfect all the time.

Stay thirsty my friends

DW · Nov 1, 2014

Hey 440, read u tagged out, congrats!

DW · Nov 1, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-14 AT 10:14AM (MST)[p]I see u put this up in hunt talk as well and have gotten a fair amount of feedback, just curious what's yer conclusion npaden and what direction ru gonna go?

npaden · Nov 1, 2014

I think that my conclusion is that it wasn't a bullet or load failure.

It was the absolute perfect (or exactly opposite of perfect actually) scenario that resulted in a perfectly expanded bullet that didn't penetrate the body cavity fully and would have resulted in a wounded bull that would have probably survived if that was the only shot that I had taken. At 250 yards there was still plenty of velocity to petal the bullet back, but not enough to make the full curl and allow it to penetrate through the skin without something hard on the other side to stop the skin from stretching as the bullet tried to keep going. If all 4 petals were fully extended it would have been almost 2" in diameter.

I think if it had hit bone that it would have broken on through the skin and penetrated further. I think that elk hide is a lot tougher and thicker than we give it credit for, especially a bull elk shoulder hide.

I'm not sure I'm going to switch bullets. I am just not going to be as confident in a high shoulder shot placement as I had been in the past. The other 2 shots were both lethal shots and pass throughs. Even with a 7mm Rem Mag a shoulder shot on a bull elk at 250 yards probably isn't the best shot selection. At least not with the E-Tip bullets.

That's my thoughts. I've been shooting these for 5 years now and have shot 5 bull elk with them and 3 mule deer bucks as well as several whitetails and pigs and haven't lost an animal that I shot with them. I've recovered more bullets that I would have expected which tells me that they are doing a good job of imparting all the energy available to the animal, but I think penetration might be lacking a little as a result.

I switched to these after some of the lead studies where they were finding lead fragments in meat and with a young son (kids are more suseptible to lead poisoning) thought that it wasn't worth the risk when there were quality bullets available that weren't lead. Before that I shot accubonds and they for sure seem to be a better penetrating bullet although I recovered one of those out of my first elk as well. It was an angled shot though, those seem to be the type of shots where I recover bullets most frequently.

That's my thoughts. Still interested in hearing what others may think.

Nathan

DW · Nov 1, 2014

Any chance that bullet contacted something prior to the elk? Think those petals occasionally get thick in production and then fail in the field? Again I've never messed with em just pickin yer brain a bit.

stinky · Nov 1, 2014

LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-14 AT 04:58PM (MST)[p]Personally, I think that it is about 10,000 times more likely that it hit something hard, on the inside and was coming backwards.

I've seen a .243, LEAD BULLET, ruin a shoulder and then disappear, but that was bone...I have trouble believing that at over 2,500 fps, that it is possible that the hide caused it to mushroom like that and then stopped it and it was also a 100 grainer (I looked and I didn't see your weight mentioned, but I assume, at least 139 grains).

A guy told me, at my local gun-shop, that he always finds those in his elk, they never exit...well never exit for him.

I saw a guy get hit in the face, by a shotgun slug, that bounced off of the berm.

What do you suppose cause the deformation to the base of the bullet?

How far did the critter move, from the first time that he was hit, until he went down?

On a lead bullet, poly tips are put on in order to push back into the bullet and cause it to mushroom and they are a deer bullet. I've looked that Barnes website, and don't see them labeled as such, but I know that the tip is there in order to make it mushroom quickly.

Being as you are losing petals (like you have in the past), then I'd say that you have to much fps for that bullet.

Tis odd, very odd.

To answer you Q...I'd be thinking about it (switching boooo-lits), I'm not sure how hard. but, for tday, I'd start using those on deer only.

John 14:6

DW · Nov 1, 2014

>LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-14
>AT 04:58?PM (MST)
>
>Personally, I think that it is
>about 10,000 times more likely
>that it hit something hard,
>on the inside and was
>coming backwards.
>
>I've seen a .243, LEAD BULLET,
>ruin a shoulder and then
>disappear, but that was bone...I
>have trouble believing that at
>over 2,500 fps, that
>it is possible that the
>hide caused it to mushroom
>like that and then stopped
>it and it was also
>a 100 grainer (I looked
>and I didn't see your
>weight mentioned, but I assume,
>at least 139 grains).
>
+1

mtmuley · Nov 3, 2014

Where's a pic of the bullet that failed to penetrate? The one with damage to the base? Ever chrony those loads? mtmuley

npaden · Nov 3, 2014

I forgot to recover the bullet that failed to penetrate. Just took those pictures when I walked up to the elk and saw it. Was in a hurry to try to get off the mountain before dark and didn't end up making it anyway.

This was a factory Winchester load. 150 grain bullet.

It's either 3,200 or 3,100 fps at the muzzle depending on which chart you look at and would be somewhere around 2,600 fps at 250 yards which was the range I was shooting at.

Cahunter805 · Nov 8, 2014

Nathan,

The Etip are IMO way to dense of material and I wont use them ever! If you want to go lead free use a TTSX or cutting edge bullet.

As to your bullet mystery Is it possible it may have struck a limb or stick before hitting the bull? This might explain why it was already expanded and didnt penetrate very well.

npaden · Nov 8, 2014

I can't say it isn't possible that it might have struck something, but I don't think so. Fairly open shot window although he was moving on the last shot.

If it had hit something and opened before hitting the bull I would think there would be more damage to the skin where the bullet hit. There is just the one hole the size of the bullet so that leaves me to believe that it didn't open up until after it hit the elk.

Timber · Nov 17, 2014

I believe you. I had the same thing happen to me on a bull this year. I was shooting a 7mm loaded with the Barnes 145grn lrx. Shot was 370 yards, ended up shooting him 3 times. While taking pictures noticed a shiny spot in the picts from the flash. It was a bullet that had penetrated the skin but that was it. It mushroomed out perfect and did not put a hole in the meat. Meat was bruised but no hole in the meat. I tried to pull the bullet out of the hide and could not, had to cut it out. Each time I shot bull he ether fell over or stumbled.

springvilleshooter · Nov 19, 2014

After this years kill I have now taken 11 animals with one shot each with 100 grain Etips out of a 25-06 Ackley. All bullets passed completely through. I have also shot these bullets into wet newspaper at ranges from 300-700 yards with perfect results. I have killed mule deer, whitetail, antelope, and elk . I would question the load far before the bullet. Like has been mentioned before, at over 2000 fps, the bullet would penetrate no matter what the shape.-----------SS

npaden · Dec 20, 2014

Not a failure - My bad

Well, after several folks here and on HuntTalk pretty much said that I was smoking crack and that it was really the exit and not the entrance I went back and looked at all the pictures I have and also talked to my friend who was with me and I think you guys are in fact correct.

The images I have etched in my mind are the 2nd and 3rd shots where the elk was headed down the mountain. Thinking it through on the 1st shot, the elk was still facing up the mountain and that bullet must have been the 1st shot.

Instead of a failure, it was indeed superb performance of a fully expanded bullet going all the way through the animal and expending 100% of it's energy and not quite being able to exit on the other side.

Again, we tag teamed quartering up the bull and my friend worked on the front while I was working on the back and so he may or may not have noticed the entry wound for that shot vs. the exit wounds for the 2nd and 3rd shots.

Thinking through all the options, there is just no other explanation for it, especially with the petals expanded and just the small hole as well as the dent on the boattail. It had to have been tumbling through the animal to make that dent in the boattail.

Hopefully enough folks will come back and read this and I won't have given a good bullet a bad reputation because it appears that it did indeed perform perfectly, it was my memory that was in error.

Thanks for helping me figure this out, especially since it took convincing me that I was wrong! LOL.

Nathan

hank4elk · Dec 20, 2014

RE: Not a failure - My bad

No exp. w/E-tips.
I am using Noslers w/Accubonds now after using Barnes for years.
Most shots go thru, but I have recovered several in opposite hide.
Some have lost a petal,I think that is hitting bone that causes it.
I found a fragment piece when I was skinning my cow this year,it put a knick in my knife and I had to resharpen it. I have the recovered bullet,it is missing a couple petals. It destroyed one shoulder bone on entry.