LRAB Or Berger VLD ?

4

440sixpack

Guest
I want to get a custom turret for my Nightforce so I have to pick a bullet .

My 300 WBy shoots both the 190 gr LRAB and the 185 VLD under 1/2 " so no difference there. velocity on the Berger is 3220 and the Nosler is 3190. no difference really.

My concern is the Nosler won't expand enough and the Berger will expand too much on game. I really don't have a use for a heavier rifle like this I just want one. my main use will be shooting rocks at long range and maybe elk, deer or pronghorn if the right conditions ever came about.

opinions? if you had to chose one which would it be?










Stay thirsty my friends
 
This should be interesting. I am going to be paying attention to see which way this one goes. I am kind of doing the same thing, but different. I just got some 30 caliber 230 grain hybrid Bergers. I was shooting 168 grain Barnes Ttsx. But wanted to move up in bullet weight . I am a little nervous with Bergers on larger game like elk. Like you said. But I have been pushed over to the dark side by a few. I hope I am not making a mistake in the long run ?
 
I've used the 200 gr AB on several elk. I've pushed the bullet with both the 300 Ultra and the 300 Win so the 190 out of your 300 Wby should be golden!

I've noticed that the AB's "pop" a little more than the TTSX when they hit elk. They're both completely deadly! Neither one of the bullets I use "splat" like some of the more fragile ones.

Do you want a pop, splat or crunch? This is the makings of a great breakfast cereal! LOL

Good luck,
Zeke
 
this is turning into a ford vs chevy or pepsi vs coke argument.
IMO we're trying to pick the #1 vs #2 bullet (unless the ABLR proves less reliable than the AB classic). If placed correctly, either bullet is going to do the job. In which case, id choose the one that shoots the most consistently in your particular rifle.

as much as i (and my remingtons) like bergers, i have a friends .300WBY that likes the 200AB the best. It groups sub MOA at 500, his kid shot his first deer at 300yards w/ my handloads 2 years ago the bullet performed flawlessly. there isnt an animal in north america that would have walked away from that hit.

in the off chance you get a bad hit, say liver or hind quarters, i would rather have the bullet that is going to explode like a grenade and cause the most hemorrhaging. ive seen a 185 berger crack elk spine at 600yards and yet still make the chest cavity look like clot soup at close range. ive seen elk take a liver shot w/ a bonded bullet (sirocco) and still run half a mile. ive seen a mule deer hit in the hind quarters w/ a berger and bleed out very quickly. in summary, ive seen the bergers perform better in a wider range of hits than bonded bullets. of course someone else will reply momentarily with different experiences.
 
>
>this is turning into a ford
>vs chevy
of course someone else
>will reply momentarily with different
>experiences.
>
>

Now, now lipcurl, don't get so testy! LOL
Ya can't argue too much with success and it sounds like you've had some.

Zeke
 
Since I could never get standard accubonds to shoot my only experience has been with Speer bonded bullets and they sucked on game. the tip on the accubond may speed expansion and that changes everything. the LRAB does seem to shoot.

The Berger is simply a jacketed hollow point. anyone who's been around rifles for a week knows those are only for targets and varmints. but guys have had success with them and you hear more good than bad. I guess the proof is in the pudding as they say.

The biggest advantage to the Berger I see is the fact you can buy them. I live 30 miles from Nosler and I can't get the LRAB most of the time. Nosler did buy another building to expand production though so maybe things will improve.

Does anyone know the real BC numbers on the LRAB or where you can find them? we all know what they list is bullcrap. I've heard you can use the Berger numbers and they're very close. if that's true my turret may work for both. that would be neat.












Stay thirsty my friends
 
If you are prone to making bad shots, it sounds like you should use a Berger. It might increase your odds of a kill. Unbelievable. mtmuley
 
muley, the actual recommendation was "choose the one that shoots the most consistently in your particular rifle."
this is sound ethical advice.

sometimes things go awry. everyone that hunts sees this eventually.
if i have to choose between a bullet that performs well only when placed perfectly vs one that performs well in perfect and not so perfect placements, ill choose the latter. that is a sound ethical decision. my decision is based on numerous personal experiences. dont make snide remarks on every one of my threads because your opinion is different than mine. im not the reason your mother never loved you very much.
 
Lipcurl, You are nuts dude! lol

I seen those pic's, i read your theory's. It is VERY understandable why guys here and everywhere, don't agree with you. Those Pic's, if i ever had a bullet do that on a game animal i shot, i'd sue the Bullet Co.! :)

You like what you're getting in your bullet? Fine! There's other and IMO, better ways to go than Berger for big game.


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
The characteristics of bullet deformation dictates that higher weights per diameter (SD) and/or the longer distances (lower velocity) promotes bullet integrity with a standard cup-and-core bullet.

With that said, there is no "perfect" bullet under all and every circumstance!!!!....but some come pretty close.

Zeke
 
Hey lipcurl, in your post with the pics, you insinuate that the Berger isn't fragile. Then you say they explode like a grenade. Which is it? You need to study up some. Two bulls with a total of six rounds fired? Yeah, great bullet performance. And leave my mother out of it. mtmuley
 
ive studied plenty. i spent quite a bit of time looking for negative stories about the berger before experimenting with them the first time. couldnt find any, i did find a video that showed a berger penetrating a steel plate that a bonded bullet wouldnt. the front half explodes, the solid base stays in tact and penetrates. as advertised. you can see in the pic that the bullet exited after passing through most of the chest cavity and the sternum. yes, 6 shots for 2 bulls, 7 shots for 3 bulls w/ bergers., as i did hit one in the spine (obviously the base stayed in tact and penetrated) as i mentioned...i had a bad experience w/ a bonded bullet, thus my policy is to keep shooting if they are on their feet. i put 3 nos partitions into a spike's shoulder at 60 yards w/ a .300 rum, they are just plain tough critters. Again, that time, i only needed the first one, but why take chances. im not in the field to save ammo. Of the 4 ive killed w/ my bow, none went down immediately. even when double lunged, they stayed on their feet as long as the one i shot 4X.... i suppose my arrows dont perform as well as yours either?
 
I should have phrased that differently. Bergers don't have a solid shank that z"drives" them. lipcurls explanations of how they work are all over the place. I have recovered some VLD's that tell a different story. I wouldn't take bullet advice from someone interested in "carnage" and has faith his choice will kill with hind quarter hits. Say anything you like lip. I'm a big boy. mtmuley
 
It's possible you're all somewhat correct.

For general elk hunting 50-300 yards I wouldn't give a Berger any consideration or the accubond for that matter the partition is superior. but since the subject is a long range bullet that changes things.

If we look at performance beyond 400 yards only the Berger has to be considered useable . superior? that I don't know. will the accubond expand fast enough ? that may be a bigger question.








Stay thirsty my friends
 
I've taken game out to over 700 yards with an Accubond. No issues. Took a bull at42 yards. No issues. mtmuley
 
All else being equal +/-, I'll take a projectile which deeply penetrates game animals yet expands with boring regularity.

There are a handful of bullets out there that I've called upon to do the job and some are failures and some are stars. The ACCUBOND IS A STAR! ....along with TSX, TTSX and Partitions, for elk. (Almost anything works OK for deer size game)

Let's just say I've shot a more than few elk and elk-type animals through the years. I've used a variety of bullets and it becomes really evident which ones/types are up to the task and which are not.

There will be no minds changed through our discussions here because everyone thinks they're right. It all boils down to how much real-world experience a guy has with bullet performance!

I can tell you what works and what doesn't, over the long haul.

Zeke
 
we're saying the same thing over and over again. if i know my shots are limited to 200yards or less, id us a partition. if i know my shots are 400yards or less, id might be inclined to use an AB. If there is a possibility that the my shots will be over 400, ill use the bullet that flies the most consistently out of my particular rifle. sometimes this is an AB, sometimes its a berger. my real world experience has not shown me a case where i lost an animal because either a berger or an AB failed. The most impressive wounds ive personally seen have come from a berger. There are thousands of other testimonials stating the same thing.
I have two rifles (.300rum and .338lapua) that will put bergers in the same hole at 100 and maintain sub 6" groups at 600. Until i see a well placed shot go unproductive, i have no reason to change.
i have seen bonded bullets fail me twice. thus im skeptical of the ABLR until i see it perform, unfortunately, i havent yet been able to get them to group as well as the AB or the berger.
there is a common mentality out there that because the berger is designed to fragment, it must be prone to failure, but i cant find a single credible case showing an animal survived a well placed shot from a berger. as with all bullets, there are stories of animals not being recovered, but these dont tell you anything and doesnt necessarily mean the bullet was placed well and failed.
 
>we're saying the same thing over
>and over again. if
>i know my shots are
>limited to 200yards or less,
>id us a partition.
>if i know my shots
>are 400yards or less, id
>might be inclined to use
>an AB. If there
>is a possibility that the
>my shots will be over
>400, ill use the bullet
>that flies the most consistently
>out of my particular rifle.
>sometimes this is an AB,
>sometimes its a berger.
>my real world experience has
>not shown me a case
>where i lost an animal
>because either a berger or
>an AB failed. The
>most impressive wounds ive personally
>seen have come from a
>berger. There are thousands of
>other testimonials stating the same
>thing.
>I have two rifles (.300rum and
>.338lapua) that will put bergers
>in the same hole at
>100 and maintain sub 6"
>groups at 600. Until i
>see a well placed shot
>go unproductive, i have no
>reason to change.
>i have seen bonded bullets fail
>me twice. thus im
>skeptical of the ABLR until
>i see it perform, unfortunately,
>i havent yet been able
>to get them to group
>as well as the AB
>or the berger.
> there is a common
>mentality out there that because
>the berger is designed to
>fragment, it must be prone
>to failure, but i cant
>find a single credible case
>showing an animal survived a
>well placed shot from a
>berger. as with all bullets,
>there are stories of animals
>not being recovered, but these
>dont tell you anything and
>doesnt necessarily mean the bullet
>was placed well and failed.
>

I agree with much of what you've said and don't think that I'm specifically targeting my remarks to you.... except this time I am. haha

How the hell can you go hunting and say you KNOW your shots will be over 400? How can you say you're skeptical about the LRAB when you've never used them and have yet to point to ever killing with even the reg AB? Your "bonded" experience was NOT with an AB bullet. You said so yourself.

For a target bullet, get the one which is the most accurate over the widest possible ranges. YES YES YES.

For a HUNTING bullet, get the one which has acceptable accuracy within YOUR hunting ranges and which will perform the way YOU want it over the WIDEST possible velocity ranges (distances).

If that's a Berger for you, GOOD. It isn't for me since I've killed elk from 60 yards to over 10X that far away with the AB.... and MORE than one elk by many fold. There's "real world" experience for the AB's.

But....we can always argue "research".

Point is, shoot whatever turns your crank. It's not my trophy elk!

Zeke
 
BigJohn, You won't be disappointed switching to the dark side.
I have to agree with lip curl on the fact that Bergers perform better on not so great shots. In a perfect world, nobody would make a bad shot. Yes all bullets mentioned kill animals when shot in the boiler room. But... Bergers hands down do more damage inside the chest cavity, and that translates into quicker kills on not so great shots. They don't go far...
I've had plenty of exit holes shooting Bergers and when you open them up, the insides are soup. After 100+ animals shot with them, I'm sold. But feel free to use what you like and trust.

And for the record, I don't care what animal I'm hunting, or bullet I'm using, if they are still on their feet, I'm shooting again. Most the time not needed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-15 AT 10:09PM (MST)[p]"How the hell can you go hunting and say you KNOW your shots will be over 400?"

Zeke...my direct quote was:
"If there is a possibility that the my shots will be over 400"

i cant have an intelligent argument with you unless you comprehend the words and sentences i write. i know english is tricky, but work with me a little bit. And yes, there are times i know a shot will be over 400. havent you ever patterned a mule deer buck or a whitetail? occasionally elk will give you the chance. i have two different muley bucks ive been watching for 2 years. im letting them ferment a bit, but when the time comes, they live on nasty steep rocky faces w/ thick brush, the only way to get either one will be with a cross canyon shot.

im skeptical of the ABLR because the cross sections i see in the marketing media dont look very different from the sciroccos that i saw fail miserably. the jacket actually looks substantially thinner on the ABLR. the only reason im even trying to get them to shoot is on the hope that noslers bonding process is superior. this is riding purely on the street cred of the original AB. If i dont get them to fly as consistently as the berger, it doesnt matter how they perform, because i wont be hunting with them.

and again, to reiterate...there is nothing wrong with the AB, it is tried and true, its my second choice only because of the BC and the fact that i get a tighter group with a berger. And again, i load for 2 other guys whose guns dont like bergers...so they shoot ABs with good long range results. im saying we're both right and some of you knuckleheads can only reply that you are "more righterer."
 
If the standard accubond is good at long range then the ballistic tip should be better. faster expansion than the accubond and better weight retension than the Berger. but the ballistic tip and accubond have less than impressive BC's.

It sounds like the jury is still out in the LRAB on game. I'm sure it will work but hard to say how well.

I think what might be missed here is a long range rifle that weighs 10 lbs is probably not going to see much action at close range , not in my case anyway I have a 6 1/2 lb 300 that's good to 500 yards with partitions. you could always load up with partitions and trade out when the need arises if you wanted to have an all range rifle. so in my opinion the long range rifle should be for long range,400 yds plus, so pick a bullet accordingly.

Since 90% of the best long range shooters swear by Berger you have to accept they do work. at long range. I wish I was more comfortable with that than I am.














Stay thirsty my friends
 
I think some of you guys are seriously into April Fools jokes.

440, it's too bad that you continue have such ingrain disdain for the regular Accubond product and love affair with the Partition. Not knocking the Partition, tough to do, but there's good reason why the Accubond has taken a large share of it's market for big game hunting purpose and it ain't hype.

To each his own!

I won't ever be shooting at a game animal that's so far away, he doesn't even know that he's even being shot at, so i'll stick with what i know from animals that i and my buddys put on the dirt from close in out to nearing 600 yds. Accubonds, about as good as it gets for what i want in a hunting bullet.

Again, if you like what you have, go for it. Just don't point fingers and gripe when others, with plenty of kills and experience of their own, don't jump to your way of thinking! :)

Joey



"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-01-15 AT 10:55PM (MST)[p]i practice quite a bit out to 1000 yards. the more i learn about shooting long distance, the more aware i am about all the little things that can cause bullet flight to go awry. the first time i shot at 1k, my first group was pretty much dead on. the second group drifted 10" right. i checked my level, my scope settings, my bases...nothing had changed. i let my barrel cool and shot another group, this time 8" left. i finally found the culprit...my next 2 groups correlated perfectly with a barely detectable breeze. based on my practice experiences, i think my extreme limit for hunting is about 700 and thats with little or no wind and a dead rest. regardless of how much we practice, if we shoot long distance, things can go wrong. if it does and we end up with bad hit, do we really want a controlled expansion bullet? if the unfortunate happens, do we want the accubond or partition that is going to mushroom less at the slower velocity if we get a liver or hind quarters hit? its easy to match the bullet to its task when everything goes as planned, but according to mtmooley, it somehow irresponsible to choose the bullet that may cause more hemorrhaging and may be more lethal in the instances where everything doesnt go exactly as planned. im not saying bergers are a license to shoot carelessly or not practice and shoot beyond your competancy. Im certainly not going to drive my truck into a telephone pole just because i have insurance, but you know what...stuff happens and sometime trucks hit telephone poles, if that happens, ill be damn glad i have insurance.
 
Maybe we should add a few drops of poison to every bullet too? j/k

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
lip, how the Hell can you expound about the terminal effects of an Accubond if you have never used them? I did not say it was irresponsible to use use a bullet that causes damage. You seem to think bad hits are a reality for you, and thus need the "grenade" effect. It even seems that maybe you feel the Berger will allow you to take extended range shots without proper placement. Insurance right? You like basketball size exits, good for you. I shoot LR a bit but am far from an expert. Guess what bullet I use for that? A 190 grain VLD. Like I said, I've actually killed game with all three bullets mentioned here, including your beloved Bergers. Still use the VLD in certain cartridges for hunting. This fall will be 16 years of killing stuff with a .300 RUM. You can bet your ass I know which bullets work in that cartridge. mtmuley
 
Anyone can make a bad hit, even at 50 yards. so a forgiving bullet is a prudent idea, why I like the partition.

If the Berger gives a wider margin of error at long range which seems logical ,that's great.

Long range hunting requires precision and specialzed tools. If the Berger is one of those tools that doesn't mean it has to be a great all around bullet. it just has to work for what you're using it for.














Stay thirsty my friends
 
Lots and lots of wind on this thread, with not many facts.

IME, I think a hunter would have a tough time topping an accubond for an all-around hunting bullet.

The partitions are great for close stuff, but have the BC's of a bowling ball. Accuracy with them for me, has always been pretty good. Performance on game has also been good. However, they aren't really ideal for longer range.

The partition is NOT a superior bullet to an accu-bond, and I shot partitions almost exclusively from the mid-80's until 2003ish. I still have over 1k of them on hand.

Once I started using the AB's I quickly found that they were everything a partition was, and more.

I shot this bull at 25 yards with a 160 AB from a 7RM, never took a step:

IMG_4619.JPG


I was really worried about how the bullet would perform, hitting an elk in the shoulder with an impact velocity of close to 3K FPS.

Entry side, that clipped part of the shoulder blade, broke a rib both in and out:

IMG_4625.JPG


Exit side:

IMG_4621.JPG


Shot this bull the same year, same rifle, at 620 yards with an AB. The recovered bullet was hanging by hair near the silver dollar sized exit hole, perfectly expanded.

P1240767.JPG


Shot this cow the same year at 240 yards, exit side, again about the size of a silver dollar broke 2 ribs:

IMG_4805.JPG


Shot this bull at 390 yards with an AB, you can see the exit just above the center line through the busted shoulder...same old same old...silver dollar sized exit.

IMG_4679.JPG


Shot this bull at 250 yards in his bed, again with a 160 AB. Broke the off-shoulder and exited, the bull just rolled over dead.

IMG_0850.JPG


Next day my wife shot this one with a 140 AB from her 7-08 right at 200 yards. Broke the off shoulder and exited. Bull stumbled 5 yards and dead:

IMG_0878.JPG
 
Shot these two a couple years back in about 30 seconds.

Cow was at 230 or so, bull was at 250 both shot with 7-08 and 140 AB's (2850FPS):

IMG_0451.JPG


Got the bull back just a bit broke the 4th rib from the back of the rib cage and exited between the ribs about 6 inches behind the off shoulder...exit hole about the size of a tennis ball:

Hit the cow tight behind the shoulder, one rib broken on the exit side:

IMG_0463.JPG


Minus the hide:

IMG_0464.JPG


Entrance side on the same cow, very typical performance:

IMG_0461.JPG


My brother shot this bull at 487 yards with my 7-08 and a 140 AB (2850 fps at the muzzle), entrance about 10 inches behind the shoulder, broke the opposite shoulder and bullet was just under the hide on the off-side, perfect expansion:

DSC00064.JPG


Recovered bullet, the only one I've ever recovered on a game animal shot with the -08 and 140 AB's:

DSC00238.JPG


Shot this cow this year with my 7-08 and 140 AB at 238 yards, she's laying on 2 busted shoulders and the bullet exited.

DSC00494.JPG


Shot this cow with the same rifle at 629 yards, broke the on-shoulder and exited about 5 inches behind the off-shoulder (same old same old 50 cent piece sized exit):

DSC00699.JPG
 
Shot this bull in Montana at 70 yards with 7-08, hard quartering toward me. Broke the on-shoulder and you can see the exit just at the back of the rib-cage:

DSC00160.JPG


Shot this bull in Wyoming last fall, 190 yards bedded with 7RM and 160 AB's. Bull was bedded quartering away, and was about the biggest bodied bull I've ever shot, much larger than than the 3 other 6 points he was with.

DSC00598.JPG


Bullet as it was when I found it just in front of the broken shoulder, entrance was just in front of mid-body and broke ribs both in and out:

DSC00609.JPG


Another 6 point I shot last fall in Montana, 260 or so with 7RM and 160 AB. He was about 100 yards from a private/public boundary. I never even thought twice, he made it about 35 yards and done:

DSC00540.JPG


Samee same:

DSC00546.JPG


DSC00547.JPG
 
...and no reason to be "wondering" if the bullet you're using is going to work at 25-600+ yards.

I remove all the variables I can prior to ever pressing the trigger.
 
I figured 440 was just screwing with us, confirmed it when i read his last post. He either is on the happy sauce early or he IS just screwing with us!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Please don't take this as a personal attack against anyone that's commented on this thread as its not intended to b. 440's tryin to pick a bullet and I say the one to pick is the one his gun shoots best. You could have the holy grail of all bullets and if you can't put it in the watermelon that is the lung area, covered partially by the shoulder blade and back, then u can blame the bullet all u want but it's not the fault of the bullet. Here's a pic of a 3 yr old bulls shoulder blade I took in 2013. I just went outside and shot it 4 times at 10yds with a 7 grain .177 caliber pellet traveling 1400 fps according to gamo (didn't chrono it:D). 4 complete pass thrus which prevented me from recovering the pellets to see what kind of expansion I got:D. About all I've ever shot em with is remington core lokts, I rarely recover a bullet but I'm not hittin heavy bone. If yer hittin bullet stoppin bone yer not hittin em in the watermelon. This myth of how tough elk are to kill is perpetuated by poor shooting. JMHO
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos3/91020150402_113915.jpeg
 
"Please don't take this as a personal attack against anyone that's commented on this thread as its not intended to b. 440's tryin to pick a bullet and I say the one to pick is the one his gun shoots best."


Oh, you mean that you have to hit them? Did you just figure it out that bullets kill stuff or did you read it in a 40 year old magazine someplace? ;-)

You are preaching to the choir here. 44O is just screwing around looking to stir the pot.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Very nice buzz! Here is my take on the accubond vs Berger. It's only my opinion though. Both are great bullets and if your looking for an all around bullet from 0- about 700yards( caliber/rifle depending) the accubond is great. The Berger is great also but I think it really shines when 800- 1200 yard shots are taken. The expansion of the Berger is better and easier to expand at the extreme ranges. That said its a personal choice for us all on how far we want to shoot and take game at. Also as stated see rifles don't like Bergers and some don't like accubonds. Shoot whatever your rifle likes and build your confidence is way more important IMO!
 
DW and Ca, One could argue your points about shooting what shoots best. Case in point:

My rifle this past year was tested with 3 different loadings, 3 different bullets, all would kill if hit right but each load was designed to perform in a specific manner.

I got at least 1" groups with all three through my rifle. One load shot as well as i could shoot, hitting -1/2". I didn't pick the loading that shot the best. All the loadings were good enough shooters on the bench and it wouldn't matter one bit out in the field shooting at game. I picked the load that from my experience, i figured would be most likely to have a animal not get away if i did my job.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
Completely agree that confidence in your equipment and set up from practice and past experience goes a long way. My pellet gun just proves most modern bullets will kill. Poor shooting is the biggest problem in the equation most times.
 
"Poor shooting"... or shooting at game that is too far away to be slinging bullets at!

I'm going to hazard a guess. I'd be willing to bet, if it could be found out, that 50% of the guys out in the woods next fall that are packing LR rifle-scope setups figuring that they are good to go on game shots out to 1200 yards, would completely miss a paper plate at 700 yards, first shot on a cold barrel.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-15 AT 01:12PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-15 AT 12:57?PM (MST)

...this thread smelled like bait from the get go, but i dont mind a good argument, im hoping i actually learn something. unfortunately, im spending most of my time helping people with their reading comprehension.

mtmooley, i've stated several times that ive used ABs and they worked just fine, ive killed deer, bear, elk with them and recovered several bullets. i presently load 160Ab for a 7wsm, 210AB for a 300wby and 140ab for a 270wsm. ive killed 2 bulls instantly, stoned them in their tracks w/ a high shoulder shot. one was with the 140AB @80 yards, one was with 210 berger at 610 yards...and the tie goes to?

in regards to me being prone to bad hits, i dont agree. i spend more time practicing and tinkering than anyone i know, but things happen. animals take steps, wind gusts, loads vary, humans err. i see your claims about ~20 one shot elk kills, thats fantastic. im sure you will always to be immune to the uncontrolled variables that arise in hunting situations.
 
>"Poor shooting"... or shooting at game
>that is too far away
>to be slinging bullets at!
>
>
>I'm going to hazard a guess.
>I'd be willing to bet,
>if it could be found
>out, that 50% of the
>guys out in the woods
>next fall that are packing
>LR rifle-scope setups figuring that
>they are good to go
>on game shots out to
>1200 yards, would completely miss
>a paper plate at 700
>yards, first shot on a
>cold barrel.
>
>Joey
>
>
>"It's all about knowing what your
>firearms practical limitations are and
>combining that with your own
>personal limitations!"


And the way things are goin, that part of the "poor shooting" is only gonna get worse as more and more folks buy into the long range game.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-15 AT 01:13PM (MST)[p]im seeing a mountain of data showing how well the ABs perform when placed well, in either the heart lung area or on bone. i dont think anyone (myself included) has ever insinuated that they dont work well in that scenario, but everyone keeps testifying about how they work. no one has produced any documentation showing the berger fails in the same situations.

my question is what happens on the bad hits? at 700 yards, a .300rum velocity is in the 2000fps range. is the minimal expansion of the AB still what we want? (above) or do we want the fragmenting
behavior of the berger? (below)
fortunately, i only have first hand knowledge of 2 of these occurances, and in this case, the edge went to the berger.


6882ab_expansion.jpg
 
+1

Joey

"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
I think it depends on the hit, lip. If it's too far back the berger. If it's heavy bone the ab.
 
Lip, I'll guess that's why Nosler came out with the LR Accubond

The regular Accubond is a heck of a bullet for "normal" applications. It does everything well, i'm repeating myself, close in to farther than i want to shoot at game. Nosler though, came out with the LR version for a reason though and to compete against Berger among others, was no doubt their reasoning.

I'm not in a position to offer any critique or comments on the LR Accubond other than they didn't like my WSM or visa verse.

I respect those who really know their stuff and can consistently kill game way out there farther that i think responsible but then again, i loath people who don't do the work, just buy the equipment and with minimal practice, go hunt stuff out there that they have no business shooting at.

In short, i wish this LR craze would never have happened.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
I think too many people deal with what if's and ballistic tables.

The bull that my brother shot at 487 with my 7-08, the bullet would have been moving at or slightly below 2,000 FPS...that bullet was "minimally expanded"?

DSC00238.JPG


Doesn't quite compare to the picture provided...the case about 99% of the time.

I'm sure nosler doesn't want to "over-sell" performance, but IME, Accubond expansion has never been a problem...close or far, with too much or too little.

I would also say that the expansion on the cow I shot at 629 with the 7-08, would have shown pretty similar expansion (judging by the size of the exit), with an impact velocity south of 1800 FPS.

Real world performance on game trumps bullet adds and ballistic rhetoric.

The other thing I consider, is that most of my shots are going to be under 300 than over 300. I want a bullet that kills without making a *&^%ing mess out of the animal.

For a wide range of hunting situations, the AB is tough to top.
 
Shot placement gentlemen , shot placement . Im not going to get into the "which bullet is better" debate . I chose bullets based on what I expect them to do after Ive done my part . Poorly placed shots can and do happen , but choosing any bullet based on that possibility is not sound logic in my opinion . In a perfect world everybody would make perfect shots with the perfect bullet , but as we all know this isn't a perfect world and there is no perfect bullet . Choose your bullet , run it through the boiler room , enjoy your success .
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-02-15 AT 04:51PM (MST)[p]OK lip, here's my deal. Over a dozen bulls killed with an Accubond. Ranges from 42 to 686 yards. The bullet works and works well. You like the Berger. I do also but not in the RUM for game. Fair enough. Here's to hoping you don't need your bullet to compensate for inadequate placement. And here's a thought. You state great instant kills with the Accubond. How many shots on average did the Accubond take to kill? If less than four, why the change? Doesn't make sense. mtmuley
 
>Agreed, a bad shot is going
>to turn into a goat$%#@
>no matter the bullet.

I totally agree but is a front quartering shot a bad shot on elk? I guess it is with the wrong bullet but not with OUR bullets Buzz. AB's will work every time.

I don't want a bullet which doesn't penetrate into and through the vitals on a quartering to be shot.
I don't care if it makes a big mess of the shoulder, actually I'd prefer it didn't but I DO want it to make it into the "lights".

*****Lip, thanks for helping me with my reading comprehension. I'll keep helping you with your "research" as payment! LOL

I've been at this game long enough to KNOW that the brightest minds in terminal ballistics have been working hard, over the decades, to avoid a fragile fragmenting bullet, and for good reason.

Do we really think anyone on MM will change their minds?

This was an almost-civil discussion until some started to accuse other of poor comprehension!

Zeke
 
Zeke said, "I totally agree but is a front quartering shot a bad shot on elk? I guess it is with the wrong bullet but not with OUR bullets Buzz. AB's will work every time."

And here you come in a stirring up the pot some more! :)

Hey, i said that Lip was Nuts! Don't that count against threads being civil?

One of my best long time hunting Pards is one hell of a guy, i'll give him that, we been good friends for over 40 years, and to this day we can get to yelling at each other over stuff just like this. He's set on his idea and i ain't buying. :)


Joey



"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
mtmuley-
as i said, i dont think i ever needed a second shot with the bergers, but the bulls were still on their feet, so i keep shooting. With either a double lung or a heart shot, the bull has enough oxygen in his brain to operate for a minute or so. Fueled with the adrenalin of a gunshot and a wound, they can conceivably cover a lot of ground in a minute or so, even with a perfect hit. if for no other reason, i keep shooting so they dont run further from the truck. ill argue at 60 yards, a partition is just as solid of a bullet as the AB, ive seen a spike bull take 3 in the chest before going down. The only way to drop an elk in its tracks is with the high shoulder or the spine shot. At long range, im going to shoot for the much larger lung bags.

@zeke: id ask you to reread the first two lines of post #27. but if you couldnt comprehend the first time, i dont know why id expect you to comprehend the second time. either you dont comprehend or you are blatantly putting words in my mouth. i know no one on this site has the audacity to just stir up trouble, so im guessing you are genuinely not comprehending.

"the brightest minds in terminal ballistics have been working hard, over the decades, to avoid a fragile fragmenting bullet, and for good reason."

I dont want you to struggle through a written description, so heres a photo of the exit wound made by one of those fragile fragmenting bullets.

for years, the brightest minds on this planet thought the world was flat. we're no smarter today...how do think obama got elected?

6846lapua_carnage.jpg
 
This bullet selection business is one helluva religion!

Evidently I've been right all along, no minds have been changed and the panties of a couple guys got all bunched.

That's right Lip, we thought the world was flat and now we know better. We had fragile, exploding, look-at-that-mess-bullets and bright-minded folks worked through that issue and brought us something better. I'll take performance over that mess any day!

Yes, I've seen that mess before on the front shoulder of elk, not good, not good at all... for me but It can be just right for you if that's what you want.

Uncle Sage is right, we can argue until we're blue in the face yet I'll bet we'd all be welcome around anyone's campfire and some would even become fast-friends. One-dryboob shoots those "crappy" (ha) bullets and we always give each other shiite and we're still good friends.

Keep your chin up,
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-15 AT 01:06PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-03-15 AT 01:04?PM (MST)

my chin isnt down and my panties are not, ...wait how did you know i was wearing panties?

if you clowns come at me with insinuations that aren't true, i'm going to try and peckerslap you, thats just the way i am. and im still half positive this entire thread was only intended to start an argument. but what the heck, its the off season, we're bored. over the years mtmuley has given me a lot of valuable advice and some good insight, i do appreciate that. im disappointed that im seeing insinuations that arent factual, but im not butt hurt.

i make a very good living debugging the problems that arise when the theories of some of the most intelligent people on the planet have holes in them. When you question someone's theory, egos start to get in the way, the only way to win that argument is with tangible proof. At the end of the day, the laws of physics prevail. The only entities that survive on theories are universities and churches.

In the ballistics argument, accuracy and terminal performance have to be evaluated together. one is useless without the other.

When i ask why a fragmenting bullet is bad, the only answers i can get are along the lines of:
1.) weight retention and controlled expansion are the way we've always done it
2.) i dont want to wonder (by nature, humans are afraid of the unknown)
3.) the brilliant minds do it this way (walt berger and brian litz blazed the trail in BC improvement, but they arent brilliant)?

what i cant find is hard evidence saying that a fragmenting bullet with a solid base is less effective than a controlled expansion weight retaining bullet. it is different and there is lots of skepticism, but no proof. what i see with my own eyes will be limited in volume, but what i have seen is that the berger shatters bone at near and far range just as well as a bonded bullet, the berger absolutely destroy soft tissue and internal organs just as well as a bonded bullet, and in some rifles, they fly better than anything else. taking it a step further, i have seen an unfortunate incident where a deer was hit in the hind quarters. shrapnel from the berger pierced the femoral artery and the deer bled out just as quickly as it would have with a lung shot. i dont believe this would have ended as well with a traditional bonded design.

ive come full circle to my first argument that both bullets work well and you should choose the one that flies the most consistently out of your particular rifle. if the berger gives you a considerable improvement in accuracy, i wouldnt dismiss it as ineffective because its a different design. my last 270wsm liked the 140ab out to about 400 yards, then the group opened up. it loved both the 150 SST and bergers. The only downside i saw from switching to the berger was a big increase in my taxidermy bills.

i definately agree with the previous comments about practice and testing and education. i cringe to think about how many people are taking to the field armed with little more than a drop chart and a turret.
 
>my chin isnt down and my
>panties are not, ...wait how
>did you know i was
>wearing panties?

>i definately agree with the previous
>comments about practice and testing
>and education. i cringe to
>think about how many people
>are taking to the field
>armed with little more than
>a drop chart and a
>turret.
>

These are my 2 favorite line from you last post. (see. we can find common ground) The balance of your post was mostly self-promotion and condescending comments but I can overlook that since you obviously have passion and believe yourself totally right.
If you're referring to me as one of your attackers, by way of "insinuation", you're way off base and too self-conscious and tender. I thought it was a bullet discussion!

I appreciate most of your comments and ALL of your passion.
Best, Zeke
 
@Zeke- sorry if i come off as condescending. I'm actually asking for someone to prove my opinion wrong. Im open minded to that event, in which case i hope to actually learn something. Im definitely not saying that i am unequivocally correct, i just want a better argument than "fragmenting bullets seem like a bad idea" and "bonded is better because that the way we've always done things" Changing our thinking from time to time is how we evolve.


@mtmuley
you have been following me around from thread to thread making snide remarks since the first time i said i saw a bad hit result in a quick kill with a berger. your recent direct quotes are below. It wasnt even my shot that went awry, i just offered this one piece of info matter of factly for informative purposes. Since then you have been making inaccurate insinuations that i think rump shooting is a viable hunting tactic and that i think shooting bergers is an insurance policy for errant shots and an backup plan for making unethical decisions. nothing could be farther from the truth. my exact statements have consistently been that you should shoot the most consistent round in your particular rifle....specifically to avoid bad hits.

you sir have definitely achieved clown status. @ssclown to be specific.

1.) "If you are prone to making bad shots, it sounds like you should use a Berger. It might increase your odds of a kill. Unbelievable."
2.) "and a Berger bullet does NOT have a solid base."
3.) "I wouldn't take bullet advice from someone interested in "carnage" and has faith his choice will kill with hind quarter hits."
4.)" Hell can you expound about the terminal effects of an Accubond if you have never used them? "
5.) "A Berger in the ass woulda anchored him. mtmuley"
 
I'm not the best at typing on my small little phone but I'll try to convey enough of my thought as to make a coherent reply.
I'm sure I fall into the azzclown from time to time but we all have our moments.

When a fragmenting bullet hits something very solid, which is too far away from the vital, the problem arises with the "shards" of bullet shedding energy too quickly and failing to make a grand entrance into the vitals. Been there, done that. It's not theory or conjecture. I've lived it more than once as have other who hold my respect. Me, myself and I do not like this particular performance from a bullet designed for elk and moose size critters.

I'm sure that more elk have been killed, with the bullet in question, than from which I have had a negative experience. FOR ME IT WAS A COUPLE BAD EXPERIENCES.

For me, a bullet which will drive through solid bone and shoulder and arrive into and through the vitals, sufficiently intact and with enough momentum, yet produces sufficient bullet-upset to do damage, is the one I want.

There are plenty of guys who will refute my experiences and they're welcome to their opinion. I will respect that yet I have my own and will share it when asked....which I was....and you were, through this thread.

That's plenty of phone time for me right now. Thanks for listening.

Respectfully, Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-04-15 AT 08:42AM (MST)[p]Hey lip, if ya want to be a big, bad expert on bullets, relating the kind of experiences you had may not be a good idea. I did say all that you posted. Keep flinging Bergers. One right after the other it seems. That clown comment describes you too lip. Laffin. I should apologize to everyone else on the thread as I usually don't resort to the infantile bull$hit of name calling. mtmuley
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-04-15 AT 12:19PM (MST)[p]we cant have a technically sound, objective discussion if we omit certain data points, just because we dont like them. the hind quarters hit experience produced data. like it or not, it gives us insight to bullet performance. The fact that the person pulling the trigger had done a considerable amount of ballistics research, load development and practicing and still ended up in a less than ideal situation is a real world example of what can happen when you play the long range game. like it or not, that is reality, except for you of course, we've all heard how you only make one shot clean kills out to 700 yards.

"laffin" is this english? do you mean laughing?

@zeke, thankyou! finally some constructive insight back on track with the original discussion. so you are saying the downside of the fragmenting bullet may be the scenario where you hit bone on the way into the vital area. ive seen the berger do fine on a spine shot, but honestly have never seen one hit a leg bone. this is 1 of the 2 scenarios that made me abandon the bonded sirocco. i hit a whitetail buck square in the front shoulder w/ a .300rum. the front leg bone was cut in half and only dangled by the hide. no part of that bullet entered the rib cage, a second shot was needed. This is my exact concern w/ the ABLR as well. if i make the assumption that the AB will hold together and perform better in this scenario and go back to my old assumption that bergers will be better in a less than ideal hit when hitting non bone; then i arrive at the conclusion that if you miss one direction and hit flesh, a berger has an upside, if you miss the other direction and hit a leg bone, the AB may have the advantage, albeit this is yet to be proven. once again i come back to the conclusion that the decision should be governed by the bullet that flies the best out of your particular rifle.
 
4943mooseanatomy.jpg~320x480

Hitting heavy bone means a poor shot to me. My pellet gun went thru a shoulder bade. Just sayin.
 
The "logic" used in these discussions is something...

A dried up shoulder blade being used as "proof" that a pellet gun will go through it.

WTF does that prove? I could probably punch my finger through that crusty shoulder blade.

Throw a few inches of hair, some hide, and 3-4 inches of meat on that shoulder blade and see if your gamo pellet gun gets through it.

BTW, I've shot some animals in some less than ideal places, and its a mixed bag on whether you're going to kill that animal quickly or not. In those situations, what you happen to get lucky and hit that may be vital, is the biggest factor...not bullet performance.

I try not to talk bullet performance when an animal is shot in the a$$, guts, etc.

Busting shoulders isn't a bad shot, and I wont shoot a bullet that may not get past the shoulder and into vitals when a large bone is hit.

Pretty easy to draw conclusions after a few hundred head of big-game...and know what you want in a bullet.

But, like with most things, any lesson worth learning is worth learning the hard way.

Cant do more than lead people to water...
 
Good grief.

All things considered lip curl is the most right in my opinion. if I miss bone at long range I don't want a bullet that just punches a hole at lower velocity. does the LRAB expand faster than the standard? that's what I was asking and obviously nobody can answer that. since I can't find the answer anywhere else either I'm going to get a turret for the Berger and if it won't work on the LRAB too I'm only out $125 if I change my mind later.


Buzzed, there might be bullets as good as the partition out to 400 yards but there is no bullet better. period. it's beyond 400 I'm talking about .











Stay thirsty my friends
 
I'll zip the gamo thru a fresh one this fall for ya buzz:D. My point is that's the "big" bone shielding the vitals and 85% of it is less than a 1/4" thick. Every modern day bullet will go right thru it. If your hitting truly big bone, lower front leg or hind leg, it's a poor shot that's not headed to the vitals anyway. Unless yer takein the long way from the back end. Then I'd recommend safari grade solids. Odd things happen to bullets out past 5-6 hundred yards as far as accuracy. I'd still pick the most accurate one out of your rifle 440.
 
You're right 440, nobody is talking about the performance of the LRAB on game. I have not used them and it sounds like everyone else is in the same boat. The regular AB is just about right out of a couple rifles for me and game performace is very desirable....for me.

You SHOULD shoot whatever you want. Like I said, we all flap our gums but no one is looking for a different answer than the one they already have.

You'll have to find your own balance of BC, accuracy and performance on game for distances at which you're comfortable.

Good luck.
Zeke
 
there are several documentations floating around on the web of bergers punching through the shoulder blade, im not too concerned about that. that's a good point about the front leg bone, looking at that moose cartoon, the big bones are pretty far from the vitals, if you miss by that far, im not sure any bullet is going to fare well. additionally, if my proof barrel drops the weight of my lapua and gives me the same accuracy, ill be hunting elk size critters exclusively with the 300g berger. even if I shed half the weight in shrapnel, im still left with a pretty heavy core with a lot of energy. i would venture to guess this would fare just as well as the 210g AB or ABLR in almost all scenarios. i might go shoot some thin steel with both bergers and ABs this spring...just out of curiosity.
 
since I can't find the answer anywhere else either I'm going to get a turret for the Berger and if it won't work on the LRAB too I'm only out $125 if I change my mind later.

Amateur...and likely a client.

Laffin'...
 
How many book animals do you have Buzzed? I've killed enough big stuff I don't take pictures of raghorns and cows let alone post them like I'm a hero every chance I get for gods sake. that's an amateur.

I know you think you're a rocket scientist because you discovered MOA. you're the man. I could go that route but I like a turret better , just range, turn , shoot. if you want to tape crap to your stock that works too it's a free country.

Maybe if you spent less time pretending you're Quigley down under and more time lobbying for your bills against WY outfitters, ranchers and NR hunters you wouldn't be the serial loser you are.

Now that's something to laugh about.



















Stay thirsty my friends
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 11:42AM (MST)[p]If you shot your rifle as much as your mouth...you wouldn't be forced to ask dumb questions about bullets.

I could go that route but I like a turret better

Real pro...

I'm not one to get in the way of a fool parting with his money, making concessions with equipment, and being forced to guess.

Like I said, learning the hard way is all some people are smart enough to do.
 
You're too dumb to answer a dumb question . some pro you are.

So you're saying anyone who uses a turret is a hack. we could all learn so much from you if you were ever right.






Stay thirsty my friends
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 12:02PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 11:53?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 11:51?AM (MST)

So you're saying anyone who uses a turret is a hack

Crying....I'm laffin' so hard.

Keep going, you're on a roll now!

When you find a clue, it will be your first. Keep cutting those $125 checks. You #$@^ed yourself as an opening move...way to go.

(hint):

IMG_4700.JPG


And another:

IMG_4698.JPG
 
440- I have shot a few animals with the ablr and while they did the job I prefer the vld for a long range bullet. Didn't get to many pass through with them and I have with the vld.
 
>there are several documentations floating around
>on the web of bergers
>punching through the shoulder blade,
>im not too concerned about
>that. that's a good
>point about the front leg
>bone, looking at that moose
>cartoon, the big bones are
>pretty far from the vitals,
>if you miss by that
>far, im not sure any
>bullet is going to fare
>well. additionally, if my proof
>barrel drops the weight of
>my lapua and gives me
>the same accuracy, ill be
>hunting elk size critters exclusively
>with the 300g berger. even
>if I shed half the
>weight in shrapnel, im still
>left with a pretty heavy
>core with a lot of
>energy. i would venture to
>guess this would fare just
>as well as the 210g
>AB or ABLR in almost
>all scenarios. i might
>go shoot some thin steel
>with both bergers and ABs
>this spring...just out of curiosity.
>

First Lip, steel will tell you exactly zero about performance on game. It had none of the energy absorbing, elastic nature of flesh and bone.
Second, you're one in a million with a 300 grain bullet for elk. I have no doubt that with that much lead something will make it into the vitals. Most guys will be afield with 120-180 grain bullets which makes a bullet which penetrates even more important.
Third, any quartering to you shot, which is uphill (very common), will expose the bullet to the front bone below the scapula. It's thick and heavy and still a ways from the vitals. Almost anything will punch a rib under ideal shots but real-world is anything but ideal.
Keep up the good work,
Zeke
 
there are several documentations floating around on the web of bergers punching through the shoulder blade, im not too concerned about that. that's a good point about the front leg bone, looking at that moose cartoon, the big bones are pretty far from the vitals, if you miss by that far, im not sure any bullet is going to fare well. additionally, if my proof barrel drops the weight of my lapua and gives me the same accuracy, ill be hunting elk size critters exclusively with the 300g berger. even if I shed half the weight in shrapnel, im still left with a pretty heavy core with a lot of energy. i would venture to guess this would fare just as well as the 210g AB or ABLR in almost all scenarios. i might go shoot some thin steel with both bergers and ABs this spring...just out of curiosity.

WOW!

Laffin'...
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 03:42PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 02:57?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 02:50?PM (MST)

just got back from the winter range. in the name of ending this argument, i shot a signifcant sample size of elk with both bullets, ranges near and far, shot placement was specifically chosen as:
1.) hind quarters
2.)quartering toward me
3.)quartering away

all hits except one ended in immediate 1 shot kills. i shanked one shot and hit a calf in the front leg bone w/ the AB. this is what happens when you use a moa chart instead of a custom turret. that bullet (AB) bounced off the leg bone, the elk wasnt even injured. there was something visibly wrong about that one, he looked retarded, and had freakishly large leg bones and no noticeable sex organs, he lumbered away unscathed, im pretty sure he was actually just laffin at me.

this argument is over, its official, im the only one on this thread that knows stuff about shootin and am obviouly the awesomest hunter on the whole intraweb.

"calmer than you are...dude"
 
Buzzed if $125 is an amount of money you can't come up with see if your boss at Burger King will let you work a little overtime.

Maybe you know something after all, to hit a bull that small from long distance requires precision.

lip curl thanks for ending this .













Stay thirsty my friends
 

anyone know when berger is going to come out w/ a .357cal VLD pellet? as soon as i get my huskemaw turret converted, your feeble arguments wont stand a chance.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 05:25PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 03:44?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 03:28?PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 03:21?PM (MST)

just noticed that U of M sweatshirt in Buzz's pic. that explains a lot. $125 is 3 days wages for most of those grads. kinda surprised all of his liberal arts studyin, obama votin, rapist QB supportin, tree huggin, wolf protectin brethren dont disown him for posting pics of
anti vegan behavior. then again, he probably doesnt have any brethren. Where you finding these elk? Ted Turner's ranch? how you getting on that property? smokin doobies w/ hanoi jane? devil's threesome? takin it in the cheek from ol ted?

go bobcats
FTG!
 
Yep. This one's over!
We've regressed to comedy.

Again, no minds were changed but we had some fun along the way.

I think I'll go shoot a rock or maybe a tree stump to see which bullet is best. That'll be the acid-test! TIC

Peace out,
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 06:07PM (MST)[p]Zeke,

Lets be honest, this thread was over the second the gals started "guessing" and "wondering" about first hand experience with bullets on big-game.

But, what they lack in experience, they make up for with imagination.

I mean really, shoulder blades with a pellet gun, cartoons, pictures of bullets going through ballistic blocks, performance on steel, $125 a pop turrets,...hard to script humor like that.
 
buzz, i dont think any of us "gals" are "guessing" about how much first hand experience you have with deep penetration from mushroom tipped projectiles.
 
>...sorry, when i give up on
>an intelligent conversation...i give up
>all the way back to
>2nd grade...


Now that was funny. We all slip from time to time.
We're damn sure a passionate bunch.
Zeke
 
I'm at the point in my life that i really don't care if i kill another big game animal,..i've gotten my share. All the time spent hunting bucks made me feel like i was doing what i was meant to be doing. As most i suspect, i too accumulated a great respect for the animals that i hunted. In these past twenty years or so, when i took a deer, it pained me to see him go any other way than immediately, on the first shot taken, and not too much waste of the meat.

The pictures, the carnage shown to that carcass...

Here's my hope that you guys set up to do battle at 6-700+, keep most of your longer shots aimed at targets not game.

For what it's worth, I have Tons of Faith in the reg ol Accubond!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
At least he brought something besides an over inflated ego and pictures of dead dinks and does to the conversation.

Lets just let Buzzed think he's Quigley it's been a tough year for him so far, everything he's supported flopped. he's one of those people trying to push trough life on doors marked pull.



Stay thirsty my friends
 
"At least he brought something besides an over inflated ego and pictures of dead dinks and does to the conversation."

Why the pecker length contest? This thread was about bullet performance on game not who killed the biggest. Childish!

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 08:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-05-15 AT 08:28?PM (MST)

pictures of dead dinks and does

Doe elk?

On the sauce or just confused?

I bet those pictures are as close as you've ever been to a dead elk.

Cheer up, maybe one of these years you'll get to hunt elk if an outfitter has an opening.
 

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