Why full length sizing for other rifle actions?

bjn7f0 · Jun 1, 2015

I read somewhere that you should full length size your cases for all other rifle actions except bolt actions. Cases for bolt actions are the only one recommended for neck sizing. Why is this? I would prefer to neck size for many reasons over full length sizing.

Assuming you are full length sizing how many times have you resized your cases safely?

Thanks,
Willie

Zeke · Jun 1, 2015

Yes that's true and for good reason.

What type action are you using? (maybe you could get by with a falling block, like a Ruger #1)

Generally a bolt action is the only type where the operator can
"cam" the cartridge into the chamber with the bolt.

While neck sizing has some advantages it's not a cure-all.

Zeke

bjn7f0 · Jun 1, 2015

Savage Model 99E and Remington 7400 semi-automatic

WapitiBob · Jun 1, 2015

Chambers vary in size even when cut with the same reamer. Big brass doesn't like going into a small hole and comes out even harder.

440sixpack · Jun 1, 2015

It depends on your chamber . I full length all my custom rifles because with tight chambers all you're working with standard dies is the neck. this is how a chamber should be cut.

On most factory rifle it will shorten your case life to full length size but it's a must if you have two or more rifles the ammo may be shot in.

How hot your loads are has about as much to do with brass life as anything.

Stay thirsty my friends

Zeke · Jun 1, 2015

I agree with what's been said.

I've got a 99 and FL sizing is a must for this lever gun.

You will want to FL size for the 7400 also and might even need to use a "small base" FL sizer to ensure it cycles every time.

So, in my opinion, you do need to FL size for those two rifles.

Zeke

BuzzH · Jun 1, 2015

If I'm moving brass via sizing, I want to know why and how much I'm moving same.

Lots of good information out there on neck sizing, FL resizing, partial FL resizing, etc.

Zeke · Jun 1, 2015

I have to agree with Buzz on this point too.

More often than not, I partial FL size but it gets too complicated (or I'm too lazy) to have a proper discussion and convey proper methods of minimum shoulder-bump.

It would get quite a bit trickier to determine "minimums" in a lever or semi-auto rifle but I suppose it can be done.... but a guy better know what he's doing or those type rifles become cute clubs in a hurry.

Zeke

440sixpack · Jun 1, 2015

I'm not sure what you mean. brass moves forward because it has no other place to go.

If your chamber is larger than the die, which most sloppy factory chambers are, you're going to move brass when you resize it. I'm not sure what there is to learn from it.

Stay thirsty my friends

BuzzH · Jun 1, 2015

Of course you dont get it...amateurs usually don't.

440sixpack · Jun 1, 2015

LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-15 AT 09:06PM (MST)[p]Well that was very informative as usual . so what you " learn " from the brass then Mr Brass Whisperer ? what does it tell you that you can't learn from the first few ?

This is why I FL size everything. but I don't see anything about doing it so you can learn from the brass. I guess like me he doesn't have the gift.

http://www.larrywillis.com/resizing.html

I'll never understand how a person as all knowing and talented at everything as you are never made it past being a low level government employee.

Stay thirsty my friends

BuzzH · Jun 1, 2015

You would do well to read the links you provide then take a comprehension course. Your custome rifle tight chamber comment is pure horsechit. Any rifle chambered to saami specks will create your "tight" chamber...btw, brass doesn't just move forward in your chamber. As per your article, providing a 1-3 thousandth bump to a fire formed shoulder is what you're looking for. In all most no cases except by pure luck, would the best barrel maker ever be able to chamber a rifle where full length resizing resulted in a 1-3 thousandth shoulder bump. In particular when the reamers, dies, and brass have tolerances as well. You shouldn't have fallen asleep during that basic physics class you flunked in 9th grade. To top it off, you have NO clue how much you're moving your brass with your "tight chambered full length resizing" fantasyland bullchit. What a joke.

BuzzH · Jun 1, 2015

440, did you call nosler to get some "tight" partitions to match yuur tight chamber...that match your grocery bag of yardage etched turret caps?

WOW!

440sixpack · Jun 1, 2015

Pretty deep thoughts there from a guy who doesn't know what a match chamber is. if all chambers are the same why can't I take a case from nearly any other rifle and FL size it and chamber it in my match chamber rifles? no way will it fit. they're all standard spec right?

There is more to a chamber than the just shoulder Einstein, and I asked you what you clould " learn " from the brass FL sizing after the first few cases?

Brass flows , the more you work it the more it moves. it moves forward that's why we trim it and turn necks not the head. now don't tell me you've been grinding the head off to get your case length ? don't lie now.

Yardage turret thing again? I know yardage is for posers ever since you invented the MOA turret and masking tape. now when I turn my turret to 1000 yards and hit the gong every time while I'm tuning up for my WY NR sheep hunt I think about the loser who worked to cut the WY NR quota and told me my turret won't work.

Knowing you're the one lobbying against me in the WY legislature gives me great comfort. there's nobody I have less confidence in, and for that we thank you.

Stay thirsty my friends

bjn7f0 · Jun 2, 2015

Thanks for all the info. I really appreciate everyone's knowledge and experience.

So going back to my 2nd question. Assuming the loads aren't real hot and I'm full length sizing everytime, how many times can I use the same brass safely?

And my last question is aren't standard dies full length sizing dies?

440sixpack · Jun 2, 2015

Yes they are full length dies. but as Zeke said there are small base dies for autos and levers. you may need them.

With normal pressure loads brass life can be from 3 to 10 times on average. there are so many variables you can't really say X amount of times.

watch for a bright ring to show up a little ways up from the base after sizing this is where it will separate. take a paper clip or something and see if you can feel a ring on the inside of the case this will confirm it. that's when you've exceeded how many times you should use your brass.

Buzz no doubt has a way to measure the shoulder and tell but this is how I do it.

Stay thirsty my friends

Zeke · Jun 2, 2015

Well... here we are.
I doubt that very many guys have actually "worn out" brass from reloading it (providing it's done correctly).

It's difficult to impossible to determine the correct "shoulder bump" if your rifle is an auto or a lever but I'm sure smarter guys than me can do it.

I'll explain: When ammo is fired, the brass expands to "roughly" the chamber dimensions. You do not want this new expanded size for an auto or lever because minuet variations will cause you ammo to "jam". So... we need to run the brass through a sizing process of some kind and we do this also to reform the neck for bullet tension.

Now, when our brass is being squeezed down from the sides it has a tendency to flow forward which pushes the shoulder forward and creates and even longer case. We need to "bump"... (as it's called but we actually press it) back down so it's not too long to fit back into our chamber.

HERE LIES THE ISSUE! If we repeatedly fire and push the shoulder back TOO FAR, during sizing, the brass will become weak and separate just in front of the web. Hence we want 1-3 thousandth clearance between the sized brass and the front of the rifle chamber at the shoulder of the case. This can be accomplished by adjusting the sizing die downward incrementally (shoulder bump) until we "feel" the case being chambered. This process required dis-assembly of several bolt parts so the ejector, extractor, cocking and striker assembly does not interfere with the "feel".

There's the rub, I don't know how to tell you to do this process with a lever or semi-auto but some guys might.

So you're back to "mashing" (you can possibly mitigate some ill effect with extensive testing) the case back to minimum specs so you can ensure they'll cycle in your type rifles and plan on discarding your brass more often.

How many times you can reload your cases for you rifles is nothing more than a guess but I'd guess about 5-7 times. In a bolt rifle, using proper Techniques and not stretching the primer pockets with hot loads, a guy can get about double that number of reloads from his brass until the time he thinks it's best to replace it. Remember, it's a component too, just like powder, bullet and primer, and need replacing.

Whew, now we've just scratch the surface.

Zeke

WapitiBob · Jun 2, 2015

Smoke the shoulder on a fired case, then chamber it to see if the shoulder will still contact or if the brass has sprung back a thou after the firing. My brass has about .001 springback after firing. If the fired, smoked case does not hit, run the case thru the fl sizer. This will push the shoulder/neck forward. Mine moves .0025 from a fl size. Measure the before and after with a bump gage so you have those numbers.
Check the smoked shoulder to make sure the fl sizer didn't bump it back, then cycle the brass and again check for shoulder contact inside the chamber. You "should" now have some contact and "should" have a tight closing of the action. You now have a "too long" number for your shoulder.
At this point you can turn down the die 1/10 turn at a time to bump the shoulder and re chamber a newly smoked case. You'll eventually get the shoulder bumped back to where the soot on that shoulder just touches the chamber wall. The soot is roughly a half thou. Measure that final case with a bump gage and you'll have a number to work from.
One thing I have found is that shoulder bump does little for accuracy in my rifle. I'm working thru cases that are bumped back .010 and checking groups to cases with .001 bump, group size is the same but group location is slightly off. What makes a big difference in my gun is seating depth, .005 is noticeable.

bjn7f0 · Jun 3, 2015

Thanks everyone!

Just getting into reloading so I sure don't want to blow myself up or anyone around me for that matter.

REDDOG · Jun 26, 2015

LAST EDITED ON Jun-26-15 AT 06:50PM (MST)[p]Headspace it lost on most, and most hand loaders are stumped by the simplicity of a sizing die.

For example, someones "custom" loads I measured. Good thing it had a belt to fall back on.

Zeke · Jun 26, 2015

Yep reddog,
And some wonder why they have case separation prematurely!
Sizing isn't just mashing the brass. It's a delicate process....if done correctly.
Zeke

springvilleshooter · Jun 27, 2015

Headspace gauges from Hornady or Sinclair are a huge help when determining proper sizing. I switched from full length sizing to neck sizing with a bushing years ago. Recently I have abandoned necks sizing for shoulder bump sizing with a neck bushing. My goal is .002 shoulder bump and .0015 clearance on the neck. I have achieved excellent accuracy and very good case longevity using this method.

Here's a little lesson I learned about sizing this week. I was visiting a friend who shoots benchrest competition. He was loading for a 300 WSM where the cases remained tight even after full length sizing. He ran a case into the die and quickly removed it. We checked it in the gun and it was a tight fit. Then he pressed the same case into the die and we left it for 5 minutes. When we removed it, it fit in the gun with no resistance. Brass has memory. I knew this in theory but this lesson was a big eye opener for me. In the past I have used specialized shell holders to achieve proper sizing. All along I was probably just removing the case from the die too fast for it to overcome its shape memory.-------SS

REDDOG · Jun 27, 2015

When its time to anneal, there is no step more important if you want consistency..

BuzzH · Jun 27, 2015

Longun · Jul 23, 2015

I've reloaded .223 brass 7 times before it starts crapping out..after the 5 reload I really start looking at the brass with a fine tooth comb..that's with a standard 3000 fps load shooting it in my model 70 Winchester featherweight...
Big Gun Brass I don't shoot that often..some of mine is on third reload...I full length die everything and go by hornady specs for case lengths....all RCBS dies which I hear aren't made that well but I'm a cheap old fart...HEHEHE

bjn7f0 · Aug 12, 2015

>Here's a little lesson I learned
>about sizing this week. I
>was visiting a friend who
>shoots benchrest competition. He was
>loading for a 300 WSM
>where the cases remained tight
>even after full length sizing.
>He ran a case into
>the die and quickly removed
>it. We checked it in
>the gun and it was
>a tight fit. Then he
>pressed the same case into
>the die and we left
>it for 5 minutes. When
>we removed it, it fit
>in the gun with no
>resistance. Brass has memory.
>I knew this in theory
>but this lesson was a
>big eye opener for me.
>In the past I have
>used specialized shell holders to
>achieve proper sizing. All along
>I was probably just removing
>the case from the die
>too fast for it to
>overcome its shape memory.-------SS

Being new to handloading I didn't know that brass has memory but it makes sense. I've learned that I have to slow down when operating the ram. Yesterday I had a cartridge that wouldn't go into the chamber, and I know I full length sized it. But I know I ran it through too quickly. From now on I'll pause a bit when the case is still in the die to allow the case to retain the memory.

Lot's off good info. Thanks guys.