300 RUM issue

utarchery

utarchery

Active Member
Messages
506
well folks, after developing a load and getting my gun dialed in to a dime at 100 yards, i decided to move my zero out to 200.i began shooting 200 and my gun was hitting all over the paper. what could this possibly be? i was shooting off a cemented in bench with a lead sled. im really lost as to what it could be. any help would be appreciated
 
Some loads will give excellent accuracy at 100, then open up at longer distances. I load for a friends rifle that acted that way. Assuming you have checked all the other obvious issues, (scope, mounting screws, action screws etc.) Might be time to try a new bullet. In the case of my friends rifle, he re-barreled. mtmuley
 
What I like to do at any distance is to take out the shooter error by using a small enough target with high magnification to eliminate "shooter hold error". For example, I use a one inch orange dot for shooting at 300 yards, that way I only have a maximum of 1/2 inch of error. At 100 yards I use the center 1/4 inch triangle of a one inch dot so I only have 1/8 inch of possible error. I also use a lead sled but you have to shoot it with the same pressure every time...firm in the buttstock (back and to the left if right handed and back and to the right if left-handed and a little pressure down on the scope. Also try and keep the wheel down as much as possible (it has less wobble) and raise the rest up with carpet. Shoot the gun back at 100 yards to make sure everything is tight. 90% of the time if a gun is a tack driver all the time at 100 yards it'll be just as accurate at distance. The exception can usually be traced to shooter error at distance or that the gun is really not that accurate at 100 yards (One dime group doesn't make an accurate rifle...doing it five times in a row with the same load does though). Verify at 100 yards move out to 200 yards and shoot again taking the Sled nuisances into account and you should be fine. PM me offline if you need me to explain anything about the Sled...good luck!
 
Without additional information, this is going to be hard to pin down. We need to know what kind of rifle and your load details you're using, and chrono data if you have it.

I wouldn't suspect the rifle straight away, it could be that the bullet is encountering instability as it slows down. The load and chrono data would help here.

Have you tried shooting at longer ranges to see what happens?
 
Your problem could be as simple as loose screws or as complex as bullet v barrel twist issues and everything in between.

Not to point a finger at you but I always look at shooter error first since I have no idea how you actually shoot.

Zeke
 
I would suggest shooting some other loads at 200 -- maybe some commercial rounds. If ANY load shoots an acceptable group at 200, then your problem is clearly your load and not your rifle or your sighting system or your own marksmanship. I surmise that your load is the culprit, because everything works at 100.

What could be the problem with your load? This is not my area of expertise, but as others say it could be your bullet and/or your rate of twist in your rifle barrel. Are the holes at 200 in the target all perfectly round or are they elliptical or oddly shaped? If a bullet is not stabilized, it will knuckleball somewhat like you see a thrown football do sometimes. If that happens, the trajectory of the bullet will be perturbed. If the bullet is not going through the paper with the right angle, its hole will not be circular but may be elliptical or elongated.

Wind errors will be greater at longer ranges too. And the error is not proportional. If you are off by 1 inch because of wind at 100 yards, that does NOT mean you should expect to be off by 2 inches at 200, you would expect more influence. It is an accleration thing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-21-15 AT 08:32PM (MST)[p]sorry it took so long to reply, im going to try to answer/give info all in one post so bare with me.

ive shot the same load and dime to quarter size groups several times at 100 yards so personally i dont think its the load, but i could be wrong.

im shooting a remington model 700 long range with a vias muzzle brake and its topped with a vortex HSLR.

i havent had a chance to use a chrono yet but going off the book i should be around 3200fps. 185gr berger vld, retumbo, CCI magnum primers. im not sure or do i know jack about barrel vs bullet twist. the bullet holes in the target are all perfect and i was shooting with zero wind.

i havent shot at longer ranges yet. i wanted to get my zero dialed first.
 
Remington 700 Long Range has a 1:10 right-hand twist.

Your Berger VLDs are good for a 1:12 twist or faster so you should be OK there. There's a possibility that those bullets are spinning faster than what is good for them and causing instability.

I would try shooting a lighter weight bullet and seeing how well that shoots at 200 yards.
 
>Remington 700 Long Range has a
>1:10 right-hand twist.
>
>Your Berger VLDs are good for
>a 1:12 twist or faster
>so you should be OK
>there. There's a possibility that
>those bullets are spinning faster
>than what is good for
>them and causing instability.
>
>I would try shooting a lighter
>weight bullet and seeing how
>well that shoots at 200
>yards.

Nah, the faster twist is a requisite for longer bullets so there's little chance they're "spinning faster than good for them" but you're right about trying different bullets!

OP, what have you come up with so far?

Zeke
 
Your twist rate is fine! A few questions.

What bases and rings?
Is the rifle bedded?
What is your powder charge? OAL and how are you measuring it?

Like stated get rid of the lead sled. Get yourself a bipod and rear bag.
 
If your rifle is shooting MOA at 100 it will shoot MOA at 200 end of story .

So are You shooting MOA at 200? that would be my first question. the lead sled sucks I have one and it doesn't work at all for me.











Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-22-15 AT 09:37PM (MST)[p]
Lots of possibles.

The best way to shake a mediocre scope is to use a lead sled. Outside temp makes a huge difference on load dynamics also, especially if your close to the edge.

"ive shot the same load and dime to quarter size groups several times at 100 yards so personally i dont think its the load, but i could be wrong." Sounds like it's a 1 minute gun.
 
I also have a Remington 700 in 300 rum, had a muzzle brake installed could not get it to shoot at all, finally talked to a gunsmith and slightly bored out that muzzle brake and problem solved.
 
The rings and bases are 2 piece Leupold Standard Scope Remington 700.
The rifle comes aluminum bedded from the factory.
I don't really know about all the moa stuff and I don't know what you mean by a 1 minute gun
 
>The rings and bases are 2
>piece Leupold Standard Scope Remington
>700.
>The rifle comes aluminum bedded from
>the factory.
>I don't really know about all
>the moa stuff and I
>don't know what you mean
>by a 1 minute gun
>


"1 minute gun" means that the gun will shoot groups no larger than one minute of angle (MOA). At 100 yards your groups are no larger than 1 inch, at 200 yards, no bigger than 2 inches. It's more or less 1 inch per 100 yards until you get to to long range.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-15 AT 10:28PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-15 AT 10:27?PM (MST)


>"1 minute gun" means that the
>gun will shoot groups no
>larger than one minute of
>angle (MOA). At 100 yards
>your groups are no larger
>than 1 inch, at 200
>yards, no bigger than 2
>inches. It's more or less
>1 inch per 100 yards
>until you get to to
>long range.

thats the problem, it is not a 1 minute gun, its all over at 200
 
If your shooting to fast it could cause a problem with a hot barrel. If your leaving your shell out in the sun to long that too could be a problem. Another idea would shoot a load that you've had good luck with and see if it does the same thing.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-15
>AT 10:28?PM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-27-15
>AT 10:27?PM (MST)
>
>
>>"1 minute gun" means that the
>>gun will shoot groups no
>>larger than one minute of
>>angle (MOA). At 100 yards
>>your groups are no larger
>>than 1 inch, at 200
>>yards, no bigger than 2
>>inches. It's more or less
>>1 inch per 100 yards
>>until you get to to
>>long range.
>
> thats the problem, it is
>not a 1 minute gun,
>its all over at 200
>


I understand that. According to your original post, it's shooing sub-MOA at 100 yards. The issue you're having is for ranges past 100. You have a 1 minute gun, I still believe it's the ammunition you're using.
 
Utarchery,
I had problems with that exact load. Same gun, same bullet, same powder.
Try the 210 gr burger slowed down or 200 gr accubond. Ive read and heard many testimonials of accuracy with either. My gun agrees with great results as well.
 
You could be having scope parallax issues. With the rifle secured in the lead sled and pointed at the target, look through the scope without touching anything. Move your head around slightly while looking though the scope. If you have parallax error, the crosshairs will seem to move around on the target. If this is the case it can be fixed by adjusting the objective lens focus until the crosshairs stay in the same spot when you move your head around.

I would also try dry firing at the target at 200 yards. You may be suprised at how much the crosshairs move as the trigger breaks. If you are getting movement, practice dry firing until there is no movement. A well adjusted trigger also helps with that. Best of luck!

NRA Life Member

www.swanspointoutfitters.com

The critters have to win every time. I only have to win once.
 
Try a different load already. Past 100 yards. Sometimes 100 yards won't tell you crap about a loads capability. I've seen it. mtmuley
 
Could it be that I don't have a consistent case length. They are nosler brass twice fired and they're all different lengths now. Could this cause it?
 
It doesn't help, that's for sure, especially if they're getting so long that you're changing neck tension when you chamber the rounds.
I trim EVERY time I load my hunting rounds. It just doesn't take that long.
Give it a whirl and see what trimming does for you.
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-12-15 AT 03:26PM (MST)[p]Closely trimmed? I don't follow the question but I'll answer anyways.
I'd trim them so they're all the same length. You can do this because it sounds like they're all long and of different lengths.
I'd trim them all to minimum trim length for now. That way they can all be the same. By the way, trim them all at the same time and to the same length for consistency. Key to reloading it to have every round exactly like all the others.
You do NOT need to trim to minimum dimensions every time as long as they're all the same length and fall between minimum and maximum acceptable lengths.
I hope that helps
Zeke
 
How much different are the cases? No way it's causing groups to scatter like you say they are. Is this a new rifle? Factory barrel? Did any other loads group past 100 for you? I don't mean to repeat, but it is entirely possible that that load in that rifle will shoot lights out at 100 and then go to $hit at extended range. Try another bullet and load if you have isolated every other variable in the rifle and scope. If it won't shoot then, I'd say have the barrel scoped. Been there. mtmuley
 
Thanks zeke, thats exactly what I meant. They are all close to the same length but not close enough.

Mt. I'm just trying to get all vairables out of the way before I change the load. Do you suggest a solid rail for the scope??
 
I understand. What else have you loaded in that rifle, and how did it group? Does the load in question still group at 100 yards? If it does, you can be sure it isn't the rifle or scope. A friend and I went through this with a 700. Loads would group at 100 then fall apart. Turned out after a borescope it was the barrel. Bad ones happen. A borescope is cheap when compared to throwing bullets downrange in a RUM chasing a problem in a load. mtmuley
 
>I understand. What else have you
>loaded in that rifle, and
>how did it group? Does
>the load in question still
>group at 100 yards? If
>it does, you can be
>sure it isn't the rifle
>or scope. A friend and
>I went through this with
>a 700. Loads would group
>at 100 then fall apart.
>Turned out after a borescope
>it was the barrel. Bad
>ones happen. A borescope is
>cheap when compared to throwing
>bullets downrange in a RUM
>chasing a problem in a
>load

It still groups great at a 100. The only other load I played with was one that worked on my friends gun but it didn't group and the bullet was 168gr which I didn't think would be a good idea for elk
 

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