I was at the range today and was shooting some new factory ammo I got a deal on through midway. Caliber is 270 wsm in a win 70 featherweight, dont let the name fool you its 9+ pounds scoped. I was shooting winchester accubond ct ammo, I had a group(3) just shy of an inch and another just shy of 3/4. Every other round out of 20 was a flat out flier, could this all be operator error or does my rifle just despise this ammo? I didnt feel any different on any of the fliers on my part than i did on the tight groups. I was shooting off a v rest with bags in the back and after my target looking like a 00 buck round hit it at 15 yards I just gave up, and ran out of ammo until my 2 other boxes get here monday. First group was 2 3/4 left, 2 3/4 up which is good for elevation so i adjusted for windage. Second group was 1/4 inch right and 2 3/4 high. all the other shots were all over the map, I mean like center(elev) and 2 inches right, or 2 inches left and 2 inches down from bullseye on target. Anyone else experience this?
grouping?
- Thread starter nvbones
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Soj51hopeful
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Is this rifle new to you? If not how did it shoot with other ammo? I had a savage rifle a while back that would intermittently throw a round into never never land, but mostly shoot good. I discovered the stock touching the barrel in a spot and just hogged it out with my dremmel to free float. It shot good every time after that. Have a smith check yours out.
Cahunter805
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How is the trigger? Is the rifle free floated? Bedded? What's your cleaning process? Give us some more info.
The rifle is not bedded and I tried to lighten up the trigger a couple weeks ago and when I dry fired it, it felt lighter, I did not however adjust travel on the trigger. When I was at the range though it felt virtually just as heavy as before and Im thinking this could be the issue. It feel like about 6-7 pounds, which is rediculous. The barrel is free floated, My cleaning process is a few dry patches down the tube every 10 or so rounds, then a thorough cleaning when I get home, wipeout and hoppes. This is also on rokslide in firearms section if you would like to see anything I may have missed here. My previous ammo was nosler trophy grade with the same bullet (140 AB), shot around 1 1/8 to 1 1/4 very consistently. The winchester ammo is around 30 bucks a box and the nosler trophy grade is around 55. My next thing will be trying a few different brands of ammo on the next go around. Thanks for your input guys.
Cahunter805
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First I would fix the trigger. It's amazing what a clean crisp trigger can do for groups.
Is it the MOA trigger or old style M70? If MOA I'd throw it in the trash can and buy a timney replacement. You could also get a spring from Ernie the gunsmith for the MOA that will drop the weight a bit.
If old style trigger they can be tuned very easily.
Is it the MOA trigger or old style M70? If MOA I'd throw it in the trash can and buy a timney replacement. You could also get a spring from Ernie the gunsmith for the MOA that will drop the weight a bit.
If old style trigger they can be tuned very easily.
I shoot a primarily pre 64 model 70s. The one flyer is common with all rifles. It could be the way you rifle fits in the stock as it heats up. It could be the barrel harmonics change once it is heating up. I usually shoot 4 shot groups at 200 yards or less and 5 shot groups 300 to 500 yards. Then take the best 3 out of 4 or 4 out of 5. I figure it takes about 500 round to really know a rifle and what it can do before traveling and paying a guide for a hunt. Currently, I have a Nov mule deer tag and I am shooting 350 to 400 yards, 5 shots, one with Varget powder and one with 4451, using the same bullet etc. I'm looking to see which bullet over time consistently holds tighter groups on all 5 shots. There are also days that the group (of a proven bullet) is so big or stringed it just doesn't make any sense. On the other hand even the big groups would produce a killing shot. The most important shot anytime you start shooting is the cold barrel first shot. That hopefully is all you need.
Thanks for the input guys, I switched back to nosler trophy grade ammo which is a little slower, changed out my trigger for a 2.5 pound timney and my groups improved drastically. 2 touching and one "flyer" finishing out my groups to about an inch. Did one 5 shot group firing as fast as possible and it opened my group up to 2 inches in a perfect horizontal string centered over point of aim. Next year I'm going to start reloading which I think will tighten up groups a little more and I will be able to afford to shoot more. Thanks again guys.
Zeke
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LAST EDITED ON Oct-15-16 AT 10:35PM (MST)[p]Reloading usually helps but will only produce groups commencerate with the level at which you reload.
Lots of little touched, skills and tricks in reloading can help you wring the most out of your accuracy.
Best,
Zeke
Lots of little touched, skills and tricks in reloading can help you wring the most out of your accuracy.
Best,
Zeke
I'm a model 70 fanatic, but I must admit the post 64 rifles aren't always the best shooters and the featherweights are the worst.
I've seen a few sub moa featherweights but I've seen many more that would never shoot. I have no experience with the new models but I wouldn't expect much difference.
Give it your best shot but if it fails it's probably out of your control. dump it and start over.
Stay Thirsty My Friends
I've seen a few sub moa featherweights but I've seen many more that would never shoot. I have no experience with the new models but I wouldn't expect much difference.
Give it your best shot but if it fails it's probably out of your control. dump it and start over.
Stay Thirsty My Friends
RELH
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Since you got a three shot group of around 1 inch, that indicates your rifle has a decent barrel. I would strongly suggest you have the action glass bedded and barrel free floated and see if that helps for your 5 shot strings. It should help in most cases where you have a good barrel to start with.
One thing to keep in mind, for big game hunting I normally only shoot 3 shot strings to test accuracy at different distance. 3 shots will normally be all you will get at a game animal if you miss with the first or second shot. After 3 shots that animal is long gone running for the next county.
RELH
One thing to keep in mind, for big game hunting I normally only shoot 3 shot strings to test accuracy at different distance. 3 shots will normally be all you will get at a game animal if you miss with the first or second shot. After 3 shots that animal is long gone running for the next county.
RELH
RELH
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Dude, as usual you are full of BS and over inflated. A big game rifle that can group one inch at 100 yards is capable of taking medium to large big game out to 400 yards and stay in the kill zone if the hunter does his part.
Here is a 5 shot target of my latest varmint rifle, 223 cal. that I free floated the sny. stock and glass bedded the action over a month ago. That black center spot is only 1/2 inch in size to give you the idea of the group size. I also have large caliber rifles that will shoot 3/8 to 3/4 inch groups. Unlike you I do not pay out thousands of bucks to get rifles that will shoot that great, I do it myself.
The target belongs to a Howa 1500 mini mauser that I have just over 600 bucks invested in and that includes tax and FFL fees.
RELH
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos_2016/81992000497jpg
Here is a 5 shot target of my latest varmint rifle, 223 cal. that I free floated the sny. stock and glass bedded the action over a month ago. That black center spot is only 1/2 inch in size to give you the idea of the group size. I also have large caliber rifles that will shoot 3/8 to 3/4 inch groups. Unlike you I do not pay out thousands of bucks to get rifles that will shoot that great, I do it myself.
The target belongs to a Howa 1500 mini mauser that I have just over 600 bucks invested in and that includes tax and FFL fees.
RELH
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos_2016/81992000497jpg
LAST EDITED ON Oct-27-16 AT 08:41PM (MST)[p]You're so predictable. you can't change your spots even when you change forums.
So you hype up how great an around an inch rifle is then post a picture of a .281 group somebody shot. what a dork , why didn't you post one of your 1.25 groups as bragging material?
I'm not putting anyone down. I'm saying around an inch isn't good enough for me or a lot of hunters. maybe when I get to your age and quit hunting it will be.
Stay Thirsty My Friends
So you hype up how great an around an inch rifle is then post a picture of a .281 group somebody shot. what a dork , why didn't you post one of your 1.25 groups as bragging material?
I'm not putting anyone down. I'm saying around an inch isn't good enough for me or a lot of hunters. maybe when I get to your age and quit hunting it will be.
Stay Thirsty My Friends
RELH
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Dude you are the predictable one. If you can't match it or surpass it, you put it down like you did above. Sorry but all my rifles are capable of shooting under one inch. Even my Marlin 1895 LTD lever action in 45/70 caliber. I have targets in my reloading room that show 3 different loads that grouped 7/8 to 1 inch with that rifle. Those would be hunting loads pushing a 350 gr. bullet at 1900 fps. that I used to take 4 buffalo all with one shot kills.
I will not keep a rifle that will not shoot under 1 inch. I will work them over until they do. Several I had to replace the factory barrel and fit a Shilen match barrel to get the accuracy results I demand. That even goes for my handguns.
The gun is my match 1911 and the 8 shot group was fired at 25 yards from a Ransom rest using Federal gold match ammo.
RELH
I will not keep a rifle that will not shoot under 1 inch. I will work them over until they do. Several I had to replace the factory barrel and fit a Shilen match barrel to get the accuracy results I demand. That even goes for my handguns.
The gun is my match 1911 and the 8 shot group was fired at 25 yards from a Ransom rest using Federal gold match ammo.
RELH
RELH
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Dude here is my duty 1911 Colt NM I used for over 15 years. Since my name is on the grips, you will have a hard time saying I lifted the photo from another web site. That 8 shot group on the target was fired at 25 yards over a sandbag rest. The ammo was not target loads, but my duty +P 185 gr. HP ammo. 1.5 inch group. I fitted the Kart NM barrel and bushing to that gun and it was extremely reliable.
This gun and ammo was what I used to drop a felon at 97 yards when he pointed a rifle at me. Hit him one inch below the left nipple and knocked him off his feet.
RELH
Again, predictable.
You won't keep a rifle that won't shoot sub MOA but around an inch or so is plenty good enough for other people? I get it, good enough for who it's for .
Do you shoot a 45 under an inch at 100 yards? if so that's impressive. if not what does it have to do with poor shooting hunting rifles?
Stay Thirsty My Friends
You won't keep a rifle that won't shoot sub MOA but around an inch or so is plenty good enough for other people? I get it, good enough for who it's for .
Do you shoot a 45 under an inch at 100 yards? if so that's impressive. if not what does it have to do with poor shooting hunting rifles?
Stay Thirsty My Friends
ofdscooby
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LAST EDITED ON Oct-28-16 AT 09:45AM (MST)[p]Once these guys are done bickering and hijacking your thread I'll give you my .02. Your gun may be very capable you just need to find the right load if your going to stick with boxed ammo you'll need to find what works keep looking around and asking other .270 WSM owners. I would try different bullet weights before I worried about different brands. What one gun likes does not mean another will. Mess around with clean vs dirty barrel use a good copper solvent and a breach plug. get it super clean multiple wet patches and let the last one sit at the end of the barrel just hanging out for a couple minutes then scrub it up follow with about 5 more wet and some dry patches. Shoot it clean, let it cool, then shoot it dirty and compare. Recheck all your torque settings. Check action screws, scope bases, and rings. Once all the cheap stuff is done then i would agree look at a trigger and bedding. The trigger will help from you putting excessive torque on the action when shooting. The bedding will help from the gun putting unwanted torque on itself. I love shooting and learning about my rifles and making my guns shoot better when its time to step into the woods I know my rifles are accurate and capable and I just need to do my part. Also what scope are you using a cheap scope can screw a good rifle.
RELH
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You can try other ammo. I would recommend trying Federal in your caliber if they have it loaded with the Sierra Game King bullet. Over the years and testing many rifles, Federal with Sierra Game king bullets have given me the best accuracy in the majority of rifles I tested.
when you are shooting, keep track where every rounds hits. Reason for this is too determine if you have a barrel bedding problem. If your first 3 rounds are grouping good, then round #4 and #5 become flyers out of the group. Your problem will have odds of being contact with the barrel at a point in the forearm barrel channel. As the barrel heats up, it expands and cause more pressure against that point of contact and throws the shot.
If your first 3 rounds, after trying several brands, are not grouping good, you have a bedding problem where the action is shifting around or a barrel problem, such as a bad crown.
The fact you did get some good groups, then it went to crap indicates it is a fixable problem and I will put my money on a bedding problem or barrel contact somewhere in the barrel channel with the stock forearm. Try sliding a dollar bill between the barrel and barrel channel and see if you have places where the dollar catches and will not slide pass.
RELH
when you are shooting, keep track where every rounds hits. Reason for this is too determine if you have a barrel bedding problem. If your first 3 rounds are grouping good, then round #4 and #5 become flyers out of the group. Your problem will have odds of being contact with the barrel at a point in the forearm barrel channel. As the barrel heats up, it expands and cause more pressure against that point of contact and throws the shot.
If your first 3 rounds, after trying several brands, are not grouping good, you have a bedding problem where the action is shifting around or a barrel problem, such as a bad crown.
The fact you did get some good groups, then it went to crap indicates it is a fixable problem and I will put my money on a bedding problem or barrel contact somewhere in the barrel channel with the stock forearm. Try sliding a dollar bill between the barrel and barrel channel and see if you have places where the dollar catches and will not slide pass.
RELH
ofdscooby
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Not necessarily its a whole package thing you're bedding could be dialed in and still have problems. Boxed ammo is always a crap shoot thrown and not weighed powder you just never know. Here's a pic of load development you can see how the rifle reacts to a load it likes. This is a custom gum with trued action, barrel, stock and bedding. You can see how even with all that in place you need to find the right load
RELH
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LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-16 AT 10:10PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Oct-29-16 AT 06:16?PM (MST)
ofdscooby, You are comparing apples to oranges. You have a custom gun that has been given hopefully a proper bedding to a off the shelf factory rifle.
The bedding on most factory rifles is marginal at best and most will have contact with the barrel at one or more points with wood stocks. Winchester used to offer a free floating barrel years back but stopped it due to the complaints from ignorant buyers who did not like the gap between the barrel and forearm.
Yes, finding the right load is very important, but that has to come after fixing the problem with the out of group flyers that are out far enough to indicate a problem with bedding, barrel contact, or even bad barrel. As I said before, I do not think he has a bad barrel due to getting some decent groups with a particular brand of ammo before it also started stringing shots.
Also your comment about boxed ammo being a crap shoot has no foundation with todays top of the line factory ammo. I have been a reloader for over 40 years and today I sometimes have problems loading ammo that will beat some factory loads. The ammo makers are putting out far better ammo then they did 15 years ago just like the rifle makers are putting out more accurate rifles then they did years ago.
Your comment on powder charges must be weighted, not dumped for accuracy is also without merit. Do you know that David Tubb, one of the best rifle shooters on record, did not always weight his powder charges for his long distance match ammo. If I remember right he used a double tap procedure with his powder measure to throw the charges and won many long range rifle matches.
RELH
ofdscooby, You are comparing apples to oranges. You have a custom gun that has been given hopefully a proper bedding to a off the shelf factory rifle.
The bedding on most factory rifles is marginal at best and most will have contact with the barrel at one or more points with wood stocks. Winchester used to offer a free floating barrel years back but stopped it due to the complaints from ignorant buyers who did not like the gap between the barrel and forearm.
Yes, finding the right load is very important, but that has to come after fixing the problem with the out of group flyers that are out far enough to indicate a problem with bedding, barrel contact, or even bad barrel. As I said before, I do not think he has a bad barrel due to getting some decent groups with a particular brand of ammo before it also started stringing shots.
Also your comment about boxed ammo being a crap shoot has no foundation with todays top of the line factory ammo. I have been a reloader for over 40 years and today I sometimes have problems loading ammo that will beat some factory loads. The ammo makers are putting out far better ammo then they did 15 years ago just like the rifle makers are putting out more accurate rifles then they did years ago.
Your comment on powder charges must be weighted, not dumped for accuracy is also without merit. Do you know that David Tubb, one of the best rifle shooters on record, did not always weight his powder charges for his long distance match ammo. If I remember right he used a double tap procedure with his powder measure to throw the charges and won many long range rifle matches.
RELH
ofdscooby
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No factory ammo is a crap shoot with shells set to SAMMI specifications some rifles like the jump some don't you need to mess around with quite a few boxes of different stuff to see what it likes. I've watched David Tubbs videos and what he gave up in weighing charges he made up in weighing and sorting shells and bullets indexing them to wall thickness and other things. Like I said before I would check all your torque settings try ammo then spend some money on a bedding job. If your not in love with the current stock you can try it yourself and if it doesn't work out buy a better one and have it professionally done. I chase long range accuracy so thats why I do everything I do but if your just chasing a good 400 yard gun you can get it done for cheap.
Relh and scooby, you have both been a tremendous help. Please don't turn this into another argument on my behalf. Scooby, seeing the difference in accuracy in just 1/2 grain of powder was eye opening. This is something I will have to address when I start reloading, also I see your using imr 4350, which will be one of the powders I will reload with along with retumbo and possibly some "r" powders. Relh, my barrel is free floated, which was one of the factors to me buying the rifle. I had to personally free float a barrel on a different rifle and it was a complete PITA to get it to be centered in the channel. I'm shooting nosler ammo which I consider to be top of the line factory ammo (imo). My rifle will be headed to kampfeld for a bedding job as soon as this season is over. If I could shoot under moa or better on a consistent basis I would be very pleased. I honestly don't know if I'm that good of a shot! Between time and money I can only shoot a couple hundred rounds a year in this rifle. I only have one rifle that is consistently sub moa for me, that is an h&r single shot in 204. Thanks again for all of your advice. Best of luck to you guys this season. And if you have anything else I would love to hear it!
RELH
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nvbones, yes by increasing or decreasing just a small amount of powder can make a small to big difference. I have a 45/70 that with a 350 gr. Hornady RNFP bullet will print 5/8 inch to 3/4 inch 3 shot groups with 43 gr. of IMR-4198 powder. Trying for more velocity while load testing, I increased the powder to 44 gr. and the groups open up to a hair over 1 inch. 45 gr. and even larger groups. 43 gr. is my standard hunting load for that rifle.
Nosler is good ammo, but your rifle may not like it as well as another brand. Example. I built a 30-06 rifle for my oldest son using a factory barrel action Rem. 700. Free floating that barrel and also using a pressure point would not get that rifle shooting under one inch with any of my handloads. I had to glass bed the entire barrel channel for full contact to get that rifle down to 1 inch groups.
Since my son is not a reloader, I tested several brands of factory ammo and with Federal, Winchester, best group was 1-1/2 inch. Then tried a box of Remington 150 gr. Core-loks and bingo, 3/8 inch group and I still have that target. Needless to say that is his load for that rifle as he only uses it for deer and antelope. He has two Weatherbys mags he uses for elk.
RELH
Nosler is good ammo, but your rifle may not like it as well as another brand. Example. I built a 30-06 rifle for my oldest son using a factory barrel action Rem. 700. Free floating that barrel and also using a pressure point would not get that rifle shooting under one inch with any of my handloads. I had to glass bed the entire barrel channel for full contact to get that rifle down to 1 inch groups.
Since my son is not a reloader, I tested several brands of factory ammo and with Federal, Winchester, best group was 1-1/2 inch. Then tried a box of Remington 150 gr. Core-loks and bingo, 3/8 inch group and I still have that target. Needless to say that is his load for that rifle as he only uses it for deer and antelope. He has two Weatherbys mags he uses for elk.
RELH
Flyers are frustrating.
I've dealt with the proble a few times. One rifle had a bur on the muzzle - recrowning helped. One simply needed free floating and bedding. The last was copper build up in the barrel. I fixed a couple by trading them in for different rifles. Hard to shoulder a rifle and go hunting if you don't have confidence in it.
I've dealt with the proble a few times. One rifle had a bur on the muzzle - recrowning helped. One simply needed free floating and bedding. The last was copper build up in the barrel. I fixed a couple by trading them in for different rifles. Hard to shoulder a rifle and go hunting if you don't have confidence in it.
ofdscooby
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Bones that pic was on a .280 ai I was just getting dialed in I tried H4831 and H4350 without success.I tried the IMR 4350 at the recommendation of Barnes and it worked but at temps in the high 80's and into the 90's everything goes to crap. Not saying that you'll hunt at those temps but if your testing IMR in the warmer months just be aware that it can be temp sensitive.
Be careful with reloading it can become an addiction one day your just trying to get some accuracy for hunting season next thing you know your at the range all the time . It's addicting!!
Be careful with reloading it can become an addiction one day your just trying to get some accuracy for hunting season next thing you know your at the range all the time . It's addicting!!
