Arrow Help

I just bought a 2013 omen pro. It is set at 70 lbs with a 29.5 in draw. I shot gold tip kinetics out of my last bow, but I don't like their outsert system. I am considering going back with the tried and true fmj's but I thought I would hear what you guys have to say first.

My opinion... I don't really care for fmjs for multiple reason. Don't get me wrong I think they are a lot worse options out there. I love heavy arrows but I think there is a lot more efficient ways of getting a heavy arrow. Get a stiffer spine but light shift and stack a couple hundred grains on the front and instantly you have a far better penatrating arrow.

Well I am into the FMJ340's and won't look back....we use a 100gr. G5 Striker Broadhead and get awesome penetration total pass through's @ 40yds. On elk with a lung shot. Total arrow weight 466gr. Shoot like field points so I can ask much more out of an arrow....if I miss'm.... it isn't the arrows fault

))))------->

>Well I am into the FMJ340's
>and won't look back....we use
>a 100gr. G5 Striker Broadhead
>and get awesome penetration total
>pass through's @ 40yds. On
>elk with a lung shot.
> Total arrow weight 466gr.
>Shoot like field points so
>I can ask much more
>out of an arrow....if I
>miss'm.... it isn't the arrows
>fault
>
>))))------->

Like I said... They are by no stretch a bad choice but Imo there is better choices. Hit one of those elk a touch forward and you might be singing a different tune. Could be the difference on taking the bull home and watch him run over 3 ridges with 90% of the arrow hanging out. Watched that exact same thing happen this year with your exact setup. I prepare for when everything goes wrong. It's a proven fact that high foc arrow out penetrate arrows when overall weight is the same and a fmj is not a good arrow to achieve that.

I ended up ordering some vap 250's last night. I had them put the 92 grain outsert in them. With a hundred grain head it should put me at roughly 485 grains and still be around 300 fps.

Good choice! Still a heavy arrow with good foc. I shoot the same setup but use the fire nock over set with 70 grains all thread in the shaft putting me at 200 grains up front. Just curious on what your set up is?

I have done quite a bit of test with the victory shaft.... I just shoot a cow elk in January on a late season hunt and kept the scapula, chunk of hide, and meat. Layered it all together and tied it with string. I then set it up and shot it with the vap I just described with a multiple bhs. First was a swhacker. Blew right threw and stuck about 3 inches into my Rinehart target. Next was a 4 blade slick trick. Same results but about a inch deeper in the target behind. Next was a t3. This is where it got interesting. T3 barely even made threw but pretty much the shoulder blade and pretty much ruined the rest of the experiment. I still have one more shoulder blade that I'll do more testing. Mind you... This was all with a 80 hoyt with a 505 grain arrow going 301 fps. So take it for what it's worth.

I will be shooting these out of a pse omen pro. 70 lbs 29.5 in draw

31: so far I guess we've been hitting what we're aiming at sounds like you have done considerable research. So far been selective enough on shots no to make a big mistake like hitting up in those shoulders. I will put your data in my memory banks though especially if I get one of those bulls going over a ridge at warp speed. I'll be ready to try your setup.

))))------>

31incher,

I have done a LOT of looking into FOC and the studies done behind it and these are the conclusions I have come to. If you have two arrows with the same diameter, and the spine is stiff enough in relationship to FOC or normal shaft and with an overall weight of say 470 grains. One has a heavy FOC and the other has very little? so long as both arrows fly true out of the same bow set up the penetration will be exactly the same. FOC will not be deeper than an arrow with less FOC at the same weight.

31incher quote? ?do you put more weight in the handle of the hammer or the head??

No Offence but I didn't buy your thoughts on FOC and the hammer theory so I did my own investigation. First off, your example of hammer and where the weight is isn't a great example at all. Lets not swing the head, lets slam the head straight down by the handle into a target and then slam the handle into the same target . I would get more penetration from the handle end due to the fact the handle is smaller in diameter however the weight is exactly the same, and so is the force.

All FOC can do for your arrows is help make it correct quicker because the back of the arrow is lighter than the front. So if you took the example of the hammer and threw it up into the air head first it would correct on its way down and the head would hit the ground first. It does NOT help penetration in the least unless your normal arrow without heavy FOC hits the targets at weird angles. FOC does help correct your arrow quicker but generally most arrows will be pretty straight out of a well tuned bow by 20 yards so as for penetration?it doesn't matter.

Penetration will be deeper with heavier arrows at smaller diameters?period. If you need to boost your arrow weight then adding weights up front would be the way to go. This could be an insert or a heavier BH. If your having flight issues then FOC can make a difference in that area so I'm not saying a heavy FOC is a bad thing either. It just isn't as important as some are making it out to be. Where you do need to be concerned with FOC is the more you add up front the softer the spine will get so that needs to be taken into consideration when adding weights.

I have FMJ 340?s and I put a 100 grain insert in behind a 100 grain BH. They do fly great but I did this to gain more overall weight with the same arrows and to still use my BH of choice which is only made at this time in 100 grains. Other than that I use a carbon collar (BAR) on the end to strengthen the HIT inserts area. I could have bought the dangerous game arrows and accomplished the same task without going to a 100 grain insert. The penetration would be the same, actually a little better because it would be a touch heavier.

GBA

>31incher,
>
>I have done a LOT of
>looking into FOC and the
>studies done behind it and
>these are the conclusions I
>have come to. If you
>have two arrows with the
>same diameter, and the spine
>is stiff enough in relationship
>to FOC or normal shaft
>and with an overall weight
>of say 470 grains. One
>has a heavy FOC and
>the other has very little?
>so long as both arrows
>fly true out of the
>same bow set up the
>penetration will be exactly the
>same. FOC will not be
>deeper than an arrow with
>less FOC at the same
>weight.
>
>31incher quote? ?do you put more
>weight in the handle of
>the hammer or the head??
>
>
>No Offence but I didn't buy
>your thoughts on FOC and
>the hammer theory so I
>did my own investigation. First
>off, your example of hammer
>and where the weight is
>isn't a great example at
>all. Lets not swing the
>head, lets slam the head
>straight down by the handle
>into a target and then
>slam the handle into the
>same target . I would
>get more penetration from the
>handle end due to the
>fact the handle is smaller
>in diameter however the weight
>is exactly the same, and
>so is the force.
>
>All FOC can do for your
>arrows is help make it
>correct quicker because the
>back of the arrow is
>lighter than the front.
>So if you took the
>example of the hammer and
>threw it up into the
>air head first it would
>correct on its way down
>and the head would hit
>the ground first. It does
>NOT help penetration in the
>least unless your normal arrow
>without heavy FOC hits the
>targets at weird angles. FOC
>does help correct your arrow
>quicker but generally most arrows
>will be pretty straight out
>of a well tuned bow
>by 20 yards so as
>for penetration?it doesn't matter.
>
>Penetration will be deeper with heavier
>arrows at smaller diameters?period. If
>you need to boost your
>arrow weight then adding weights
>up front would be the
>way to go. This could
>be an insert or a
>heavier BH. If your having
>flight issues then FOC can
>make a difference in that
>area so I'm not saying
>a heavy FOC is a
>bad thing either. It just
>isn't as important as some
>are making it out to
>be. Where you do need
>to be concerned with FOC
>is the more you add
>up front the softer the
>spine will get so that
>needs to be taken into
>consideration when adding weights.
>
>I have FMJ 340?s and I
>put a 100 grain insert
>in behind a 100 grain
>BH. They do fly great
>but I did this to
>gain more overall weight with
>the same arrows and to
>still use my BH of
>choice which is only made
>at this time in 100
>grains. Other than that I
>use a carbon collar (BAR)
>on the end to strengthen
>the HIT inserts area. I
>could have bought the dangerous
>game arrows and accomplished the
>same task without going to
>a 100 grain insert. The
>penetration would be the same,
>actually a little better because
>it would be a touch
>heavier.
>
>GBA


GBA,

By no means am I trying to start an argument, but Im curious as to how your research has led you to think that a higher FOC does not aid in penetration? Im sure you have read the famous Dr. Ashby research papers. What did you think about his findings?

I ask because my efforts have convinced me that higher FOC absolutely helps penetration. This is all being based off a tuned bow, and a correctly spined arrow. I believe that weight, momentum, and a solid FOC are key for penetration. Smaller diameter arrows also help.
Again, I'm not saying your wrong, cause really, what do I know? The more I can learn from others the better off I am.

+ 1 GBA ... Sounds like there is somebody that really hunts out their .

The difference you will see in penetration in hunting situations are so small you would never notice it. High FOC is a Waste of time even messing with really.

I would'nt go as far as saying its a waste of time.
I enjoy anything that keeps me engaged in archery. Sometimes I find a benifit, other times I don't.
I for one have found substantial benefits to a higher FOC. What works for me, may not work for others though.
Archery is a game of inches. Anything that gives me a slight edge is worth while. Add many little things together that can give an archer an advantage, and he's better off than the guy that didn't want to waste his time messing with them.

>31: so far I guess we've
>been hitting what we're aiming
>at sounds like you
>have done considerable research.
>So far been selective enough
>on shots no to make
>a big mistake like hitting
>up in those shoulders. I
>will put your data in
>my memory banks though
>especially if I get one
>of those bulls going over
>a ridge at warp speed.
>I'll be ready to try
>your setup.
>
>))))------>

I dont know if your trying to be a smart azz or what but if you insisting that i have shoot a elk shoulder on purpose you are wrong. In fact all my shots on elk have never hit a shoulder expect on exit. my therory is why not prepare for the worst case scenario? Maybe im reading your post wrong but im not doing the testing to piss you off or anyone else for that matter. Just trying to trying to contribute to what i have found works the best to me.

While i do agree the analogy was not the best but its what popped into my head at the time. Im sorry i didnt meet your standards.

As for your findings on foc... i hope you dont take it personal when ill take someones word that has been doing testing on real world senarios for over 25 years over some guy as yourself over the internet. Dr ashby has done more testing on arrow penetration then probably any one in the world. Of course someone as smart as yourself would already know that. Its not a matter of opinion if high foc arrows penetrate better. ITS PHYICS. When everything else is equal... high foc arrow comes out on top everytime. How much more pentration is all specualtive on setup and such.

>The difference you will see in
>penetration in hunting situations are
>so small you would never
>notice it. High FOC is
>a Waste of time even
>messing with really.


Any actual evidence supporting this? or just hear it somewhere?

>+ 1 GBA ... Sounds like
>there is somebody that really
>hunts out their .


Not sure what your getting at here. If you been lucky enough to never have anything happen that was out of your control (like me) i hope it stays that way but the odds are not in your favor. I think as hunter we owe it to the animal to make the most ethical kill possible in all scenarios. This is why im always striving to find the next thing that will help my odds go up on not finding animals. Im not here to judge you like you seem to be judging me.

31 incher, please go back and read my post.

I didn't say a high FOC wouldn't aid in penetration.

I said the same size arrows with the same weight will not out penetrate the other just because a weight is way up front or the total weight of an arrow all the way through are the same.

Take any arrow, add weight, you get deeper penetration. You can tube the whole length of them, you can add inserts to FOC you WILL get deeper penetration. But if they are equal in weight between tubes or FOC and fly true they will not out penetrate the one another. I reached my conclusions by doing these tests into a new target so that I didnt hit a soft spot with either arrow.

Tubes are used mostly so you can get more weight out of a softer spined arrow and not change spine.

The great self profound Dr. Ashby has contradicted himself so much I think he has confused himself. I don't pay much attention to people that are wishy washy on their subjects.

GBA

>
>31 incher, please go back and
>read my post.
>
>I didn't say a high FOC
>wouldn't aid in penetration.
>
> I said the same size
>arrows with the same weight
>will not out penetrate the
>other just because a weight
>is way up front or
>the total weight of an
>arrow all the way through
>are the same.
>
>Take any arrow, add weight, you
>get deeper penetration. You can
>tube the whole length of
>them, you can add inserts
>to FOC you WILL get
>deeper penetration. But if they
>are equal in weight between
>tubes or FOC and fly
>true they will not out
>penetrate the one another. I
>reached my conclusions by doing
>these tests into a new
>target so that I didnt
>hit a soft spot with
>either arrow.
>
>Tubes are used mostly so you
>can get more weight out
>of a softer spined arrow
>and not change spine.
>
>The great self profound Dr. Ashby
>has contradicted himself so much
>I think he has confused
>himself. I don't pay much
>attention to people that are
>wishy washy on their subjects.
>
>
>GBA

I get what you're saying. If everything else is equal except foc it will pent rate the same right. Essentially a 500 grain arrow is a 500 grain arrow. If this is what you are saying I disagree with you and there is tons and tons of studies support just that. I'll try and explain why.... arrows natural flex a bunch when hitting a target right? So the more of that weight you put up front the less of the weight is moving side to side on impact. The more that weight moves side to side the more energy is lost. Decreasing pentration.

I tested it as I stated and saw no difference in penetration. I suggest if you disagree that you try the same thing. I wanted to know for myself and I'm convinced it made no difference. My thoughts on it is the arrow is pushing from the shaft as much as it pulling from the front.

My thoughts on why?The arrow leaves the bow in an S shape. It hits the target in an S shape it then straightens pushing/forcing from weight into the same POI. I highly doubt any energy is lost. If there is any, it didn't make a difference in my tests. I'm also thinking that a tubed arrow wont lose any spine/energy where a FOC does lose some spine/energy. It may well be that the energy is lost from the flex to begin with on an FOC and isn't losing energy from a tubed that the spine is stiffer which is why I'm not seeing any difference. I ask you to try it and come to your own conclusion.

GBA

Imo I don't need to do the testing. The testing has already been done 1000's of times on real life subjects (not targets) for me by some that has no gain other than for the good of archery hunting. I don't understand why people think Dr Ashby is out to get them. Maybe because they want to believe they already have the most efficient setup available. Maybe the gain was minimal and didn't realize it. Everybody's results are a little different from set up to set up. Look I'm not saying fmj are terrible arrow by any stretch. I just know that there is better selection out there for pentrating heavy bone maybe it's minimal for you and more for the next guy. He must be doing something right to get full pentration on Asiatic water buffs with a 40# long bow nearly 100% of the time

Not to stoke the fire, but this was a pretty definitive statement I found while reading about the subject.

"Many hunting with Extreme FOC arrows reported conspicuous
penetration increases. Subsequently, they were included in
the study. Testing confirmed the reports. Extreme FOC arrows
give significantly greater tissue penetration, when all else
is equal. The frequency and magnitude of test results is too
consistent and extensive for one to conclude otherwise. "
-Dr. Ashby

>Not to stoke the fire, but
>this was a pretty definitive
>statement I found while reading
>about the subject.
>
>"Many hunting with Extreme FOC arrows
>reported conspicuous
>penetration increases. Subsequently, they were included
>in
>the study. Testing confirmed the reports.
>Extreme FOC arrows
>give significantly greater tissue penetration, when
>all else
>is equal. The frequency and magnitude
>of test results is too
>
>consistent and extensive for one to
>conclude otherwise. "
>-Dr. Ashby

Yeah man I don't get why it's so hard for people to accept. Ashby has literally spent 1000 and 1000's of hrs dedicated trying to give us (archers) the best possible chance of recovering animals for no personal gain to himself whats ever and people piss all over cause it doesn't fit the criteria that they were fed from big name companies. I don't get it. Seems you would be more skeptical over someone trying to sell you something rather then the other way around. I think that is why more companies are coming up with brass inserts and weights and such.

fmj s or any other heavy arrow for that matter tipped with a good head would probably work just fine 99% of the time would work just fine. My luck thou... The 1% of the time would be with a 390 bull and something unexpected would happen. That's why I try to eliminate as many variables as possible. That the off chance something does happen I have the best possible chance at recovery

I'm interested in a similar set up but do not see the 92gr outsert listed on the website? Did they custom make the outsert?

31incher, have you tested the Grizzly Stik Momentum arrows? The 330 class arrow has a 78gr insert, a 28" arrow with a 150 gr broad head results would be 537gr total, 20.54 foc. Thoughts?

>31incher, have you tested the Grizzly
>Stik Momentum arrows? The
>330 class arrow has a
>78gr insert, a 28" arrow
>with a 150 gr broad
>head results would be
>537gr total, 20.54 foc.
>Thoughts?


I haven't tested or tried any of the grizz sticks. Mainly because of the price point. Sounds like a killer arrow thou! They are sure proud of them!

Well, I just received the German Kinetic's XL broadheads, 150 gr backed up with VAP 250's with 90gr inserts. 540gr total arrow weight. Testing the broadheads today in 15mph winds and they fly great! No difference in field points vs broadheads.

GBA...Just curious In your test how heavy were the arrows and what was the FOC of each?

4bigbucks,

I used 340 FMJ?s and both the tubed arrows and non tubed arrows with a 100 grain brass insert up front are at 550 grains with the 100 grain FP. The tubes were glued in within a 1/4 inch both front and back to keep them from moving inside. I did not do the math to figure out percent in FOC. I simply put on a 100 grain field point on each arrow. I weighed each arrow, FOC vs Tubed with field points, on my scale to be sure they came in at the same weights. I got them all within 2 or 3 grains by changing FP around.

I bought a virgin target and after sighting in on an old beat up target I shot both sets of arrows, 6 each at 40 yards. There was absolutely no obvious indication on deeper penetration by either arrow. However, I was able to have much tighter groups with the heavier FOC over tubed. I am a believer (now) in heavy FOC for better groups and obviously anything heavier is going to give me deeper penetration. But all things equal as far as weight and diameter concerned didn't change penetration.

There is something else to consider in these tests such as all things being equal is impossible with the same make and model arrows. You can achieve equal weight in an arrow and you can have equal spine PRIOR to heavy FOC or tubing but you will NOT have equal spine from tubed arrow to a heavy FOC arrow. The tubed arrow will retain its ridged spine, the heavy FOC will weaken spine.

The heavier you go FOC the weaker the spine gets. This IMO is why I do not get better penetration with a heavy FOC over the same weight arrow that's tubed. It is also why I'm getting tighter groups with the heavier FOC s as they are recovering faster coming out of the bow as it doesn't take much to correct the lighter end of an arrow.

Note: The brass inserts go over 2.5 inches inside the front of the arrow shaft, then the FP is screwed on. If I had not use a Brass insert but instead used a 200 grain FP my FOC would even be higher. IMO this would not make the arrow penetrate deeper than the brass inserted or the tubed arrows.

Another test could be taking a 400 FMJ and tubing it to 550 grains and maybe the spines would equal out or get much closer. It would be interesting to see what would be the outcome. However, in my mind I got the results and answers I was looking for so I'm staying with what is working for me.


GBA