Fixed blade VS EXP/Mech blade

Robiland

Robiland

Very Active Member
Messages
2,058
So, I have drawn an elk tag in Wyoming in unit 45 type 1. But I plan on archery hunting it. I have always used a fixed G5 Striker and have liked them this far. But I have been experimenting with Grip Reaper. I love the way they fly and the accuracy I have had with them practicing out at distance past 60 yards. Would you guys use an expandable on an elk or stick with a fixed blade? I have never shot an elk with my bow. SO I am a looking for experiences that you all have had with expandable and specifically the grim reaper.

Thanks, Landon
 
I will start out by saying shoot what you hve the most confidence in be it fixed or mechnical.

With that said I have killed 8 elk, all with mechnical heads. My choice of head is the Killzone.

With any mechnical on elk I would recomend you shoot a total of 550 grain arrows.

GBA
 
I drew an elk tag in Wyoming this year as well and I plan on using expandable broadheads. I don't have any experience with Grim Reaper, but last year I did try expandables for the first time on both of my Utah hunts. I went with the G5 T3's. They shot exactly like my field points out past 100 yards. (In the past I was using muzzy fixed blades and then tried Montec g5's fixed blades... but I was never satisfied with my broadhead accuracy/grouping.) Anyways, last year with the expandables I was able to take a deer at 55 yards broadside and got a complete pass through. It ran 50 yards before piling up. I was also able to take a 5 point elk at 64 yards slightly quartering away. It didn't completely pass through, but my arrow was sticking out the opposite shoulder. It ran 30 yards before expiring. Everyone has there own opinions on expandables vs fixed blades.. what it comes down to is confidence in my opinion. Go with what you shoot the best, having confidence the broadhead and arrow combo will do the job. I've heard the "horror" stories of people using exandables in the past, but i personally have 100% confidence in them. There's a bunch of great expandable heads out there.. I have heard great things about the Grim Reapers. Best of luck on your elk hunt this year!


I Live For This
 
>I drew an elk tag in
>Wyoming this year as well
>and I plan on using
>expandable broadheads. I don't have
>any experience with Grim Reaper,
>but last year I did
>try expandables for the first
>time on both of my
>Utah hunts. I went with
>the G5 T3's. They shot
>exactly like my field points
>out past 100 yards. (In
>the past I was using
>muzzy fixed blades and then
>tried Montec g5's fixed blades...
>but I was never satisfied
>with my broadhead accuracy/grouping.) Anyways,
>last year with the expandables
>I was able to take
>a deer at 55 yards
>broadside and got a complete
>pass through. It ran 50
>yards before piling up. I
>was also able to take
>a 5 point elk at
>64 yards slightly quartering away.
>It didn't completely pass through,
>but my arrow was sticking
>out the opposite shoulder. It
>ran 30 yards before expiring.
>Everyone has there own opinions
>on expandables vs fixed blades..
>what it comes down to
>is confidence in my opinion.
>Go with what you shoot
>the best, having confidence the
>broadhead and arrow combo will
>do the job. I've heard
>the "horror" stories of people
>using exandables in the past,
>but i personally have 100%
>confidence in them. There's a
>bunch of great expandable heads
>out there.. I have heard
>great things about the Grim
>Reapers. Best of luck on
>your elk hunt this year!
>
>
>
>I Live For This

This is not the norm!!! I would not and frankly most archers would never recommend this set up for elk. I'm not calling bs but I highly doubt you hit any major bbones if you truly did get that much penetration. Imo 500 grains should be the min for fixed heads let alone a mech. I prefer the 600 grain range for mech and a .70 momentum. I think you should plan for the worst case senario. I have seen to many things happen to no days fault other than lack of knowlegde. To many people just screw on a 2.5 inch expandable on 350/400 grain arrow and go hunt. Then are passed cause they only get 5 inch of penetration.
 
With my setup, the calculator says I have 89 #'s of kenetic energy. Is that enough? I shoot a 360 grain arrow at 322 fps.
 
360 grain at 322 comes in at 82# KE and .51 of momentum. Like I said above... I prefer around .70 for elk and expandables. I'm not saying your setup won't work 95% of the time. I just prefer to take out as many variable as possible. People also call me crazy for shooting nearly a 650 grain arrow to. I can almost guarantee thou...not much but the tree on the other side of the elk will stop my arrow
 
LAST EDITED ON May-01-14 AT 08:19PM (MST)[p]>Maybe I typed in my numbers
>wrong since I was in
>a hurry. But I
>think 82 should be enough?
>


To kill an elk? Probably. .. to get a pass threw (optimal, and what I think should we should try for) probably not. I would try to be around 100# of KE and .70 of momentum. I would be leery shooting a 360 grain arrow with a fixed head let alone a mech head. Of course it's just my opinion and I'm sure many will disagree but it's what I have found to work every single time. Not just sometimes or when everything is just right but ALL the time. I would definitely bump up your arrow weight by at least a hundred grains. You got plenty of speed to spare And Maybe 200.
 
+1 The more KE and Momentum you can get the better. There is no such thing as too much:) And I agree, with as fast as you're shooting you would benefit more by adding a little weight to your arrow. But with your current set up at 82# KE that is plenty to get the job done regardless of your .5 momentum. Like I said, with my similar set up with only 71# KE and .5 momentum I didn't have a problem, and I never had a problem on elk back when I used fixed blades either. And most shots have been 40-60 yards. In a perfect world I would also shoot 31incher's set up, 100 KE and .70 momentum... but realistically with my .dxt maxed down to 72 pounds draw weight at 28.5" draw... that would be impossible for my set up, and probably most others as well. In the end just be confident with your equipment. A nicely placed shot behind the shoulder will pass through every time with your setup. Good luck to you!

I Live For This
 
I should have been a little clearer. .70 mom is just what I prefer. BB is right thou... that number can be hard to achieve without pulling heavier poundage. I was just trying to say you can stand to up your arrow weight. There is so many advantages to heavier arrow weight.
 
Go with what works for you. Follow the basic common sense we all know but forget when we are going through all the "fun" gadgets that come out each year.
If you are getting good flight with Fixed, don't change.
If Mechanicals help you tame erratic flight, use expandable's and don't worry.
If you have to choose between a heavier arrow or a lighter one, go with the heavy one.
If you have to choose between a stiffer or weaker spline, go with the stiff shaft.
If you have to choose between a longer or shorter draw length, go with the short.
If you have to choose between a higher or lower poundage, go lower.
Etc, etc., etc.
Whatever puts you in the kill zone is what you should use.
 
I have killed elk with a ke of 35, a meaningless figure, and mom of .41, perfect broadside shots with 2 blade heads on 525 gr arrows. You could easily shave hair with those blades. I'd do it again but would use a little heavier arrow with a better head than I used then. I've also done it with arrows weighing 435grs producing 65 ke and .51 mom and once again, you could shave hair with those heads. I waited for the broadside shot on those occasions as well.

But never ever would I shoot an arrow at a deer that weighed less than 400grs, much less an elk. Been there, done that, never again. I personally feel arrows weighing under 400grs should be outlawed for hunting purposes, I don't care whats on the end or how fast its going.

Never shot mechanicals and never will. To many horror stories out there and it's just another thing to go wrong. Ole Murphy shows up a the damnedest times.
 
I shoot a 400 grain easton axis at 290 ft/sec and shoot mechanicals for deer, elk, bear, sheep, antelope, etc... never had any issues. I also have a short 27" draw length. like mentioned above, it comes down to confidence in your equipment. I hit a shoulder on the bull I killed two years ago with a popular 2 blade mechanical and my puny 400 grain arrow blew threw the shoulder and lodged in the off side shoulder. I watched the bull fall in sight. Shoot what works best for you, just know your limitations.
 
I agree that weight, KE, momentum etc. is very important but I really think people go a little crazy with weight on deer and elk. I shoot a 410 gr arrow with 14% FOC and get consistent pass throughs on deer and elk with fixed and mechanical heads. My opinion is that FOC can increase penetration a lot more than people think. No way I wold ever shoot a 600 grain arrow at elk when I can kill em and pass through at 60 yards with a 410 grain arrow.
 
NMarchr..Wonderful for you, but 98% of archers w/ 27" draw do not shoot a bow that fast. 400gr at 290fps at 27" is the same as 400gr @ 290fps at 31". Sounds like someone has napolean disease, or some serious t-rex arms. I bet your truck has the biggest tires you could fit under it too. ;)

Had you been shooting a good coc fixed blade broadhead instead of that tin can rage, you would have blown all the way threw that elk. Why did you have a mis-hit w/ your field point accuracte mechanical broadheads? Isn't that why you shoot them?

Personally 400gr is the minimum for elk and I think mechanicals shouldn't be allowed either. I agree w/ what was said earlier about variables, stack the deck in your favor and you will be a happy hunter.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE CONFIDENCE IN YOUR SETUP THEN DON'T EVEN STEP OUT OF CAMP.

Quick story. I passed threw my elk last yr w/ 410gr behind an exodus BH. The guy who helped me was shocked that I had a pass threw. He shoots rage.... end of story.
 
>I agree that weight, KE, momentum
>etc. is very important but
>I really think people go
>a little crazy with weight
>on deer and elk.
>I shoot a 410 gr
>arrow with 14% FOC and
>get consistent pass throughs on
>deer and elk with fixed
>and mechanical heads. My opinion
>is that FOC can increase
>penetration a lot more than
>people think. No way
>I wold ever shoot a
>600 grain arrow at elk
>when I can kill em
>and pass through at 60
>yards with a 410 grain
>arrow.

I shoot 620 grain arrow with 20% foc at elk because that's what works every time penetrating and elk shoulder blade 10 out of 10 times with an 2 blade expandable ( swhacker). Yes I have done the actual testing at 20 yards. Have you shot your set up at an elk shoulder blade to see what happens? For me... 99% of the time is better than 95%. All do everything I can to ensure succes. Not just say... that's good enough.
 
ohiohunter, Im glad you know me and everything about me and my equipment. Im glad you u know exactly what my archery equipment is capable of. Im glad you know all about my hunting situations!!! but guess what buddy, my elk is dead, his head in on my wall, and I get to look at his rack every day. Job done successfully. I will continue to shoot my tin can broadheads with 400 grain arrows, and continue to collect my bulls. Why don't you worry about yourself and what works for you!!! I was responding to a question that was brought up by the OP, told him what works for me, and I could care less what you think! Good Day.
 
>ohiohunter, Im glad you know me
>and everything about me and
>my equipment. Im glad
>you u know exactly what
>my archery equipment is capable
>of. Im glad you
>know all about my hunting
>situations!!! but guess what
>buddy, my elk is dead,
>his head in on my
>wall, and I get to
>look at his rack every
>day. Job done successfully.
> I will continue to
>shoot my tin can broadheads
>with 400 grain arrows, and
>continue to collect my bulls.
> Why don't you worry
>about yourself and what works
>for you!!! I was
>responding to a question that
>was brought up by the
>OP, told him what works
>for me, and I could
>care less what you think!
> Good Day.


I could kill a elk with a 223 too. Does that mean I will? Hell no! Sooner or later your luck will run out! Your the one that's going to live with a wounding a bull. You should do every one a favor and stop suggesting inferior setups.
 
Hey I didn't tell him what he should or shouldn't use, I told him what I use. Why is it ok for someone with a bow that has an ibo speed of 330 and a draw length of 29" to shoot a certain setup, but my 350 ibo bow at 27" is inferior??? Even when my last 9 bulls and 12 mulies, and countless other animals have all fallen without issues? Who are you to tell me what I can or can't shoot? Why can I not let someone know what my experiences have been with a certain setup? You clowns are crack me up!
 
>Hey I didn't tell him what
>he should or shouldn't use,
>I told him what I
>use. Why is it ok
>for someone with a bow
>that has an ibo speed
>of 330 and a draw
>length of 29" to shoot
>a certain setup, but my
>350 ibo bow at 27"
>is inferior??? Even when my
>last 9 bulls and 12
>mulies, and countless other animals
>have all fallen without issues?
>Who are you to tell
>me what I can or
>can't shoot? Why can I
>not let someone know what
>my experiences have been with
>a certain setup? You clowns
>are crack me up!

I don't remember saying you can't shoot this or that. Your bow is more than adequate. I was talking about your arrow smart guy. Use some common sense. You could probably shoot 90 out 100 bulls with your setup. That's not good enough for me. For deer your setup probably right where it needs to be... for elk...I wouldn't shoot it and wouldnt recommend with a expandable. Maybe a fixed.
 
I know my limitations, I'm not out there shooting head on or quartering to shots. My setup works great for me. I have had complete pass thru's on most kills including elk. I will continue to use this setup because I have 100% confidence in this set up.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-09-14 AT 07:35PM (MST)[p]This video says it all, Fixed blade VS EXP/Mech blade penetration test on hog skin

 
Mechanicals are accurate but cant compare to fixed blade on penetration. Takes up KE for the blades to open and the HUGE cutting diameters that are one of the selling points also slow the arrow down upon entry and kill your penetration. Common sense that a bigger cutting diameter and surface area will not penetrate as well as a smaller sturdier one offered by most fixed blades. I have shot fixed and mechanicals and killed many animals with both and I can say for certain their is no comparison on penetration.

Mechanicals fly well but with work and tuning fixed fly just as well.

Jason Yates
MTQuivers
 
Hey Jason, you are spot on about the penetration factor. I couldn't agree with you more. However I prefer to use a wide cutting blade and have complete pass through as well specifically on elk. A pass through is a pass through and after all IMO that's what we should want in any set up.

Let me explain it this way, I do not need my arrow to get a pass through and then go through 2 trees and stick 18 inches in the dirt. There is a LOT of wasted energy there in my opinion. If I had a set up like that I would lighten up my arrow weight to just achieve a pass through and only penetrate one tree, LOL. Point being is I could get more speed out of it with a little itty bitty fixed head.

I shoot mechanical?s for a huge hole and that is the only reason I shoot them. My bow is tuned for both fixed and mechanicals with FP. I don't shoot a mechanical to get best flight?ever. However I can take a 2.5 mechanical and blow it completely through an elk and still have a ton of energy/momentum left over. I shoot a heavy arrow and that is what gets me the penetration I need to achieve that pass through with a monster head.

My experience with small fixed heads on elk are the holes close up rather quickly. Specially on hard quartering away shots or a high lung broadside shot. It still kills them but they go a lot further and the blood trail isn't the greatest. So while I agree with you 100 percent that you can achieve greater penetration with fixed heads I can still get the same exact pass through with a 2.5 inch head and at the same yardage. Hope that makes sense.


GBA
 
>So if my arrows are 26
>inches long at 8.4 gpi
>with a 100 grain tip
>then I have a 318
>grain arrow correct?

No. You need to figure in the weight of any insert, nock/bushings, vanes, etc. Best thing is just to weigh a complete arrow.
 
>Hey, lets call up this levi
>morgan dude and see what
>he thinks, he knows everything!!!!!
>


Call um up smart aazz. He will tell ya to shoot a shwacker. Or better yet... we could all call you since you obviously know more about archery then the Micheal Jordan equalivent for archery. Just think how good you would be if you threw stab on your bow. You could out shoot all the pros and stop working for a living.
 
I have taken several bulls with mechanicals and they have worked great. I dont use the grim reaper but a very good friend of mine does and they have worked great for him on elk. Shot placement and a sharp broadhead is the key IMO. I dont care what head you use if you hit them in the wrong place its bad.
 
If I were you I wouldn't worry a bit about tackling Elk with 400 grains or even slightly less for that matter. Anyone who has performed any penetration testing whatsoever with the same head on different weight arrows knows the difference in the real world is negligible. 600 grains won't get you through an elk leg bone or shoulder blade for that matter, neither will a smoking fast 360 grain. I've been killing Mule Deer most every season for the last 25 years shooting 344 grain tackle with nothing but fantastic results with a couple shoulder blade hits thrown into some 18 different kills(mechanicals and fixed). My son shoots the same superlite gear and has pass through after pass through, nothing negative to report after 8 seasons with just as many kills. We are all shooting so much more KE and Momemtum shooting light or heavy than Fred bear had on that beach in Alaska shooting Kodiaks, the whole argument is laughable at best and "much ado about nothing" as they say. I feel the answer is simple, shoot what you're comfortable with. If you're going to be in a situation where ranging may be an issue I would opt for flat and fast over slow and heavy.
 
+1 notag.Its all about shot placement be patient and wait for the perfect shot.I personally like wasp sharp shooters.I dont take chances with mechanical heads fixed heads will never fail unless you miss:)
 
>If I were you I wouldn't
>worry a bit about tackling
>Elk with 400 grains or
>even slightly less for that
>matter. Anyone who has
>performed any penetration testing whatsoever
>with the same head on
>different weight arrows knows the
>difference in the real world
>is negligible. 600 grains
>won't get you through an
>elk leg bone or shoulder
>blade for that matter, neither
>will a smoking fast 360
>grain. I've been killing
>Mule Deer most every season
>for the last 25 years
>shooting 344 grain tackle with
>nothing but fantastic results with
>a couple shoulder blade hits
>thrown into some 18 different
>kills(mechanicals and fixed). My
>son shoots the same superlite
>gear and has pass through
>after pass through, nothing negative
>to report after 8 seasons
>with just as many kills.
> We are all shooting
>so much more KE and
>Momemtum shooting light or heavy
>than Fred bear had on
>that beach in Alaska shooting
>Kodiaks, the whole argument is
>laughable at best and "much
>ado about nothing" as they
>say. I feel the
>answer is simple, shoot what
>you're comfortable with. If
>you're going to be in
>a situation where ranging may
>be an issue I would
>opt for flat and fast
>over slow and heavy.

My 620 grain kinetic with a sh Wacker actually blows right threw elk shoulder blades. I have done the testing in as about real world conditions as ppossible. fresh elk scapula wrapped 360 degrees in hide and 1 inch slab of meat.
 
971914elk.jpg


my puny rage head worked flawless again! head on shot at 9 yards and my arrow burried completely inside the bull. I will continue using the hypodermics because I feel confident in their ability!
 
To get back to the OP's original comments. I would throw Grim Reaper's in the garbage before shooting them at anything. I have seen them fail way too many times to rely on them. I worked on a hunting ranch for five years and watched hundreds of pigs get shot with all different types of broadheads. Grim Reaper's And any other Brodhead that has the same mechanics as that one have always shown to have very little penetration, and have failed to open on contact at least 4 out if 10 times shot. This is speaking off of five years of Experience watching hundreds of pigs being shot with broadheads. If you want to try mechanical broadheads that have good penetration that I have never seen fail. Try out meat seekers. They fly like a field tip and the blades open before even touching the animal. Out of six animals I have shot with those broadheads not one has gone more than 40 yards before dying
 
Got back from my hunt in Wyoming the other day. Thought I would share with you what I used and what happened. With all the excitement and planning for the hunt, I did not practice with my choice of broadhead. The G5 Havoc. The day before the hunt started, I decided to take a few practice shots with broad head. GOOD IDEA!!! They flew like crap!!! At 20 yards, 6 inches right. OK, maybe a was excited and pulled. Second shot 4 inches right. After 10 shots at 20 yards, I never hit the same spot. Put on my practice heads of the Grim Reaper, BULLZEYE 3 shots in a row. Put on my G5 strikers, 3 shots bullzeye!!!

I used the reaper on my bull. I hit back on the bull. As he took off just as I was letting the arrow fly. The arrow burried deep in him to the knock. He went 200 yards and laid down. Got up and went 20 yards and laid down after he fell down. Laid down a 3rd time after going 10 yards and died on the that spot. So the Reaper did a good job after my bad shot.
 
I use top quality fixed heads. 100 grain and have never had bad flight with them.

The two I've been using for the last 8 yrs or so have been the Steelforce Phatheads and Razortricks.

The Razortricks are the heads of choice right now and I've taken 3 or 4 dozen deer with them. Both heads are cut on contact type heads, balanced perfectly and straight.

Good Luck guys, nocwalker
 
This year I used a 30.5in 60# Experience with a Goldtip velocity topped off with a 100gr. German Kenetic broadhead weighting in at 410grs.

At 46yds slightly quartered, went through the off shoulder blade and 40yds out the other side of the elk. Elk died within 50yds. German Kenetics fly very good with my field points also, with that kind of performance I'll pay the extra money. And guess what, "no stabilizer", Nice lite bow packed well up and down them steep hills
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-14 AT 04:32PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-01-14 AT 04:25?PM (MST)

Nmarchr, in post 24 you tell us you know your equipment and don't take head on shots, however, in post 36 you have a picture of yourself with a nice bull. In that same post you tell us it's a 9 yard shot head on. So post 24 isn't entirely true? I think shot placement is much more important than mechanical/fixed blade, and a head on shot isn't what I would consider good shot placement, though it did the job on nmarchr bull.

I prefer a fixed bladed over a mechanicals when elk hunting. Like said above, I believe you lose KE with mechanical blades. For thinner skinned animals like antelope and deer mechanicals seem to work fine. With that being said, I did kill a bull this year with a rage two blade and it worked great. Bull went 40 yards and died.
 
You are correct, this is the first head on shot I have taken at an animal. At 9 yards I felt completely confident in my equipment and my ability to make the shot. At that range I would tKe that shot again. The rage hypodermic did an incredible job. I don't think I would take that shot at distances over 10 yards, but under 10 yards in the situation I had I would take that shot again.
 

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