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Swaro HD, 65 vs 80mm

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RidgeRunner76

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LAST EDITED ON Mar-06-15 AT 08:50AM (MST)[p]For those of you who have dealt with these scopes, I'm interested in hearing what you lose having a 65 vs 80mm on the 20-60 Swaro ATS HD spotters? Is there significant low light performance loss? Or is it a wash?

I'm leaning toward the 80 but seeing as there is a significant difference in price, I'd like some opinions.

As well to muddy the waters a bit, what are your thoughts on the RazorHD in 20-60?

Uses are going to be for elk, mule deer, and shed hunting. My desire for updated glass is due to a long waited mule deer hunt in some wide open country here in CO. I'd really like the ability to look deep into the country scouting and on the hunt. The area is known to hold alot of deer and the occasional stud buck.
 
Go with the 80, its definitely noticeable at low light. I have used both, there is a difference.

The Razor doesn't really stack up well IMHO, there is a definite difference at high power. I'd also look at the X series.

Cue the vortex fanboys in 3....2....
 
go with 80 i got 20x60x80 i love it.you can see an judge deer better than other scopes. when i first got mine my son was looking at buck antelope i asked can yousee him good he said i can count the hairs on his nut sack lol.good luck
 
One thing you might want to consider is the eyepiece.

Obviously, everyone will tell you the 80mm scope will let in more light than the 65mm.
True.

But, how does each of those objective sizes compare with different eye pieces?

A few things.
From the steiner optics web page.
"The twilight factor has the most significant impact on resolution or image details. It is a measurement to distinguish efficient viewing in low light conditions. The Twilight Factor is calculated by taking the square root of the product of the magnification and the aperture. The higher the twilight factor the better the resolution e.g. when viewing under low light conditions. "

So, your twilight factor on the 20 - 60 eyepiece is
36.1 - 62.4 on the 65 mm scope.
40.0 - 69.3 on the 80 mm scope.

Compare that to the 25 - 50 wide angle eye piece.
40.3 - 57.0 on the 65 mm scope.
44.7 - 63.2 on the 80 mm scope.

However, there is a trade off.
Relative brightness.
How bright the image will be at the same power, from the same objective diameter.

20 - 60 power eyepiece.
10.6 - 1.2 on the 65 mm scope.
16.0 - 1.8 on the 80 mm scope.

With the 25 -50 power eyepiece,
6.8 - 1.7 on the 65 mm scope.
10.2 - 2.6 on the 80 mm scope.

So, the translation of that is,
the 25 - 50 mm eyepiece will resolve detail better at all power ranges, and the 25 -50 mm eyepiece has better brightness at the lower zoom ranges, but looses more light at the higher power setting.

This can also be seen in the exit pupil stats for the same scopes and eye pieces.
the 20 -60 power eyepiece on a 65 at low power is 1.1
The 25 - 50 power eyepiece on a 65 at low power is 1.3

But the numbers flop at high power.

Same with the 80 mm
20 - 60 eyepiece low power exit pupil on a 80 is 1.3
25 -50 eyepiece low power exit pupil on a 80 is 1.6

So, regardless of which objective diameter you choose, the eyepiece you select to go on it matters as well.

Overall, the 25 - 50 gives you a wider view making it easier to find animals, and has superior low to mid range detail and light, but it costs more.
The 20 - 60 gives you more reach and has a bit more light at high magnification, costs less.

So depending on how you use your scope, you may prefer one over the other.

Also, having the stats to compare makes your decision a little more informed.

I would go with an 80 mm scope with the 25 - 50 power, wide angle eyepiece.
All day long.

Vortex, I don't even want to start in with all that.
 
+1

I looked at the same stuff and ended up with ATM 80 HD with 25-50W lens. I never leave home without it.

Grizzly
 
Are you going to be backpacking or short trips from the vehicle? I had both but sold my 80 for a 65 for the smaller size and lower weight. I sacrifice some light gathering at dusk and dawn but, chances are, if it's something I need a spotter to see just before dark, I'm not gonna get there in time to shoot it anyway. If I see something at dawn, I can wait 15 min to see it more clearly with the 65 and still have all morning to get on it.
 
The 65 is the best option for a mobile hunter who covers country by foot. I have compered both, side by side, at the difference was very small. The 80 offers a larger, more comfortable exit pupil, but the 65 hd is plenty good if you prefer to save the size, weight, cost.

The Razor has very good day time resolution but it is terrible for its size in low light. The build quality is equally terrible.

Buy a 65 swaro hd or a leica 65 and you won't regret it, in my opinion.
 
Thanks gentleman for the advice thus far. SHEDYGAGA, thank you taking the time and doing the math on the eyepieces. This was an item I hadn't given much thought about, but now I am intrigued and will put the two eyepieces to a test before I buy.

Let me answer some of your questions.

I don't backpack deep into the wilderness on 98% of the hunts we do anymore. Over the years our hunting style has evolved such, that we are able to identify and hunt small pockets of animals typically out of the thoughts of other hunters. Since we've been hunting almost exclusively elk the last 15 years or so due to saving deer points, its been an interesting process to say the least. We are able to find these pockets due to local intel from family and friends, along with preseason scouting. One of the reasons I'd like to make a major upgrade to my current spotter. On elk size animals it is adequate provided the power setting isn't over 40x. After that the image seems to get fuzzy depending on the lighting. During full daylight its fine on all powers.

My typical day hunting is usually setting up high on a ridge where I can glass our target terrain with the spotter and bino's. Typically if we locate animals we will either try and make a play if time permits or put them to bed and get on them at first light the next morning. I've personally been pretty successful with this. Seeing as this is CO and the animals are heavily pressured in most units, glassing at evening from a good vantage point has taught us that most animals stick to the timber near feeding areas till full on dark. Some rifle seasons and weather patterns change this, but we still find it a good rule of thumb.

Now, having said all that, I do have plans in the future of doing more backpack type hunts and weight will always be an issue. So, I'll give the 65mm some due consideration as well. I was curious what trade off might be there and it sounds like it is minimal in certain terrain.

Lastly, as to Vortex and other newer names in optics, I do believe that if nothing else, its been good for optics across the board having them around. Its made the optics field highly competitive and I believe this will push all manufacturers to keep their quality and offerings fresh. Win-win for us sportsman. I also believe companies like Vortex are good for those who have a tight budget but would like better equipment than what was offered in the not so distant past. When I was young, Leupold, Swaro, Zeiss were the obvious top dogs in optics, and for the most part that left Tasco, Simmons, Bushnell and a few other options for those on a budget. We've come along way since then. For full disclosure I am currently using a Vortex Viper HD in 20-60x80mm spotter now. It was actually a gift from my wife a few years ago. Its done its job, but nows the time to upgrade and send this one to a new home.

So I guess you can call me a fan of sorts, but I'm not a fanboy by any means. Like most of you, I know you get what you pay for.

Thank you for your insights on the Swaro glass.
 
Up until you said you had plans to backpack in the future, I was gonna tell you to go with the 80 hands down. Chances are you're hunting more reclusive animals that, like you said, stick to the nighttime hours. The 80 will offer you an advantage in those situations. Only problem is you still have to find a way to kill them during daylight.
 
if you get either swaro...seriously, get the 25-50w eyepiece over the 20-60. You will not regret it.
 
Mallards Only,

Yes, getting into a situation that provides us a shot on these animals has been an experience. Our best tactic to date is trying to get between where they feed at night, and their bedding areas. Or, we try and get in position for a shot at first light before they are back in the timber. We've had luck with this so far. I'm still leaning towards the 80mm.


Homer,

I am very intrigued with that eyepiece. I just want to look through all combo's before I buy. I was worried the responses I got here would confirm my speculation on this spotter and its combos, and I have not been disappointed! Which leads me to the conclusion that I need to go full bore on making this purchase happen. So, once I get some time behind the glass first hand and make a decision, looks to be I'll be selling some extra rifles, gear, and my old spotter to add to my original budget. Especially since the 25-50W eyepiece is now very much on my radar.

Thank you folks. I'll keep you posted.
 
A couple of thoughts...

1- The Swarovski rep at the Outdoorsman booth at a trade show told me without hesitation that the 25-50 was the best eyepiece for hunting. I trusted him and have been happy ever since. (You can often buy the eyepiece from Cameraland on their Demo page)

2- The ATM 80HD only weighs like 6oz more than the ATS 65HD. They have the same glass but you get a lot of scope for only a few ounces. Something to consider.

Good luck in your scope search. Let us know what you decide.

Grizzly
 
I have an sts80 that I bought with the 20x60........replaced with a demo 25-50w demo......so much more usable...aren't you in southern cali????.....come to Bakersfield and get it....try both eye pieces....
 
Grizzly,

Good point on the weight. I think my current spotter weighs more than the Swaro as well and I've hauled it in plenty of steep terrain.

As well, you guys have pretty much sold me on the 25-50x without even looking through it yet. I know Cameraland has some smoking deals and that is where I planned on buying if possible. Already talked to Neal last week about same. Just trying to find a local dealer who will allow outdoor testing in lowlight just to make sure my eyes are seeing what they need to.
 
>I have an sts80 that I
>bought with the 20x60........replaced with
>a demo 25-50w demo......so much
>more usable...aren't you in southern
>cali????.....come to Bakersfield and get
>it....try both eye pieces....


I'll be looking for demo pricing as well. Unfortunately I am not in Cali. I'm in Northern Colorado actually. Thanks for the offer though.
 
I bought a Swaro 65 thinking it would be good enough, it wasn't. in low light it was sorry.

Now I have the 80mm version and would never go back. sure it's bigger I don't care for that, but it's worth it.














Stay thirsty my friends
 
I'm with ya 440, 6 ounces or so not a huge penalty unless you are literally counting ounces on a really long back pack trip.

My original question had that in mind, but I'm not sure it matters for my forseeable future.
 
I have the ATS 80 HD with 20-60 eyepiece. I use it probably 85% of the time- always from ATV and truck, many day hikes, etc. I also have a Brunton 50 ED compact that weighs around 32oz. I use this scope for extreme hikes or multi-day backpack hunts. Of course there is no comparison, and I like both for different reasons. I did have Tines Up make me an adaptor for digi-scoping for both spotters.
Not sure if this helps or not. It all depends on your hunt style I guess.
Ed
 
This whole eyepiece thing has me intrigued. I thought I was done spending money on my optics but now I'm thinking I may want to try out a 25-50. SHEDY, aren't those twilight and brightness numbers you provided the result of the mag range on the respective eyepieces? For example, shouldn't 50x twilight and brightness be the same in both eyepieces through the same objective?
 
Ridge Runner,

If you have the money, get the X series.

It weighs more, but the glass is definitely better. Then you can have your cake and eat is too. You can get a 65mm and a 95mm lense. The 95 is a truly amazing piece of glass that works all the way to 70 power. I pack an 85mm X series everywhere and I figure its a wash because of the amount of hiking it saves me.
 
>Ridge Runner,
>
>If you have the money, get
>the X series.
>
>It weighs more, but the glass
>is definitely better. Then you
>can have your cake and
>eat is too. You can
>get a 65mm and a
>95mm lense. The 95 is
>a truly amazing piece of
>glass that works all the
>way to 70 power. I
>pack an 85mm X series
>everywhere and I figure its
>a wash because of the
>amount of hiking it saves
>me.
As much as I'd like to take a look at the X series, its definitely out of my price range. As it stands now, I'm going to sell off a rifle or 2 along with my old spotter to extend my budget enough for the spotter. Especially since the 25x-50x is now on my radar.
 
Gentlemen,

Just returned from a twilight spotter comparison between my Viper and Swaro. No comparison. For those who are interested, the 25-50x needs be seen to get the true hunting application benefits. The 20-60x is no slouch so don't shy from it. There's just a difference in the two. I'm sold now.

1 last question, are there options outside of the Swaro pre fit neoprene cases? If so, who should I look at? At this time, the roughly $300 for the case is a tad high.

Thank you all very much. I'm on the ball now.
 
King's camo makes neoprene cases for the Swaro scopes that are just as good and not as pricey. If mine hadn't already come witht the Swaro cover, I'd buy one again. I had one on my 80mm scope.
 
Mallards, ??..
Actually, wait a minute, who shoots only mallards?
Killin me smalls!

ok, back to optics.

As I understand it, its got to do with the wide angle.
Yes, based on the math, the same eyepiece, on the same diameter scope, should give the same image, but??. then you start throwing in the wide angle on the rear end.

All you can do is trust the numbers Swaro puts out. Unless you own both eye pieces.

If I was buying, I would get the 25 - 50 wide.

If you look at the new line up of X series scopes, they don't even offer the narrow angle.

The 20 - 60 eye piece is 40 - 60 degree angle,
The 25 - 50 eye piece is 60 - 70 degree angle.

The new X series scopes are all 57 - 71 degree angle.

They don't advertise them like the old style. "wide angle" its just all they offer.
They don't offer the reduced angle that comes on the 20 - 60 power eyepiece.
 
Well, optically, yes, the new X series scopes are awesome.
I use the X series, my buddy uses the 80mm sts series scope.
X series is an improvement.

There is one downside to the X series scopes.
Something weak in the magnesium body.

I am on scope #3.
All replaced, free, no questions asked, within 2 weeks.

But, if you drop them, they have something inside the body that breaks.
You can hear it rattling around inside.

I am not a typical scope owner. I use mine nearly every week.
Mine sees more use in a month than most scopes see in two years.
I almost live behind it.

So, mine takes a fair number of hits.
Its gone down the side of a BigHorn sheep mountain, took a big hit slipping down a ice sheet. And, even landed on stone. Plus several other incidents that did not break it.

X series is the way I would go, unless money was tight. the 80 mm scope with the 25 - 50 wide is the way I would go if I could not afford the x series.
 
Just when I thought I was safe--now you've given me an excuse to spend more money. Think maybe I'll wait until they fix the housing issue though. In the meantime, I may have to check out one of those 25-50 eyepieces.
 
they rubberized them for a reason.......spend your money on your wife and use the scope as it came.....they are NOT fragile. I see no reason to waste money on a cover for the scope...
 
Homer, WRO,

My want of a neoprene case is more so to protect the lenses without losing the snap in place covers, and to protect the spotter from riding in my backpack with all my other gear. No doubt that these spotters are made tough. I just like to take care of my equipment the best I can.

I do like the idea of saving the money on the Swaro case, and taking the missus out to a nice dinner or such. I'll just buy the Kings Camo version for $50 instead. There are many benefits to a happy wife, and getting a pass for more time in the field is one of them. Wisdom for sure.
 
I have both. The 65 is the best for backpacking (lighter and takes up less space). 80 is best for spotting in low light (i.e., early morning or just before dark). You really get much more detail with 80 in low light or middle of the day spotting.

My dad has the RazorHD. That is a great scope. The only down side is it is not quite as crisp to my eye on the extreme edges. However, I love that it has the large and fine focus dials. It is super easy to focus when spotting at high power. Super great in low light as well.

Swarovski has great resell value. Vortex is best bang for the buck. My opinion, buy a vortex and have an additional $1500-2000 to go on another hunt or buy more gas for scouting. You can't go wrong either way.
 
Acknowledging that I just drug up an old thread, I just thought I'd update my status as thanks to my lovely wife, I just ordered a 80HD ATS with 25-50x eyepiece for my Fathers Day gift. Life is good and hopefully my fall hunts are just that much sweeter getting to use some top end gear for both my hunts and my kiddos as well. Thanks for all the advise guys.
 
>Don't forget a good case, I
>like the neoprene ones with
>the springy/bungy lense covers.
Deerlove,

Thanks for the suggestion. Already ordered the Kings Camo version. Wasn't about to spend just under $300 for the Swaro one.......
 
>Acknowledging that I just drug up
>an old thread, I just
>thought I'd update my status
>as thanks to my lovely
>wife, I just ordered a
>80HD ATS with 25-50x eyepiece
>for my Fathers Day gift.
>Life is good and hopefully
>my fall hunts are just
>that much sweeter getting to
>use some top end gear
>for both my hunts and
>my kiddos as well. Thanks
>for all the advise guys.
>

Where did you order it?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-15 AT 11:01PM (MST)[p]....that is exactly what I did for the 25x50 eyepiece....you will not regret that purchase over the 20x60.....way better. I was in NYC a year ago and stopped in and visited with the cameraland boys....what a nice bunch of guys. I met Doug, Neil and Paul and got lots of NYC insider info from them.....made taking the subway to a Yankees game a piece of cake.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-15-15
>AT 11:01?PM (MST)
>
>....that is exactly what I did
>for the 25x50 eyepiece....you will
>not regret that purchase over
>the 20x60.....way better. I was
>in NYC a year ago
>and stopped in and visited
>with the cameraland boys....what a
>nice bunch of guys. I
>met Doug, Neil and Paul
>and got lots of NYC
>insider info from them.....made taking
>the subway to a Yankees
>game a piece of cake.
>

So far I'm very impressed with the setup.

As to the CLNY boys, they are first rate for sure. I spent alot of time on the phone with Neil over the last 6 months or so talking optics. If I ever make it that far east, I'll try and stop in for a visit. Sounds like they took really good care of you while in NY. Good stuff.
 

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