Spotting Scopes - Magnification vs Objective

TX_Diver

Active Member
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392
Like many other people I'm torn between the Vortex Razor HD and the Swaro.

With the Razor HD I'd be considering either the:
16-48x65 - 48oz - $950
or
20-60x85 - 65oz - $1300

With the Swaro I'd be considering either the ATS/STS HD
20-60x65 - 38oz - $2250
or
20-60-85 - 47oz -$2950

I'm probably going to be using this on some car camping trips and also on some backpacking trips so the smaller objective appeals to me quite a bit along with the lighter weight of the swaros.

Despite the price I'm leaning towards the Swaro 20-60x65 but am wondering if I'm going to be missing much with getting that higher magnification and smaller objective diameter? When it comes to spotting scopes what tends to be king? magnification or objective diameter? Does getting a higher magnification with a smaller objective diameter leave some to be desired?

The only spotting scope I've used so far is my brother in laws redfield which isn't in the same league as either of these. It was a 20-60 but once I got above 40x I had a tough time getting a clear image.

Prices listed above are approximately what I could get each for at cabelas right now as the vortex's are 20% off due to having a cabelas visa.

I'm not in a rush as I probably won't use it much until september. Do the Swaro's ever go on sale? I'm not opposed to used but do prefer to buy new when possible.

I know the swaro vs vortex has been debated at length and am aware the swaro's generally tend to be considered as better but I haven't found much info on the magnification vs objective so any help is appreciated.

Thank you!
 
I love it. Torn between the vortex and the Swarovski.

I can tell you that you won't regret buying whatever you choose. The reason is because you won't know any better. If you only have one experience, its hard to compare that to much.

To your specific question about magnification vs objective size.........
It matters. But its not about clarity as much as it is about light.

You have three things involved.
First your eye. Second the scope body. Third the eye piece.

Start with your eye. The human pupil can only open to about 7 mm.

I hope I am not wasting my time here. You actually seemed interested in the concept, so I am putting together this post.

I took the eyepiece off my razor and zoomed it to 20X then zoomed it to 60X.

This is the difference in the eyepiece.

2617light.jpg


30X zoom own the right, 60X zoom on the left.
The more magnification you use, the less light gets through to the eye.

So, lets put all three together.
Your eye has an adjustable hole size that lets light in, the scope body has a fixed hole size that lets light in, the eyepiece has an adjustable hole size that lets light in.

If you start out with a small scope body (objective diameter) you cut down the light that can make it you the eye piece. If you use the zoom on the eyepiece, you cut down the light again and less light makes it to the eye.

The eye will try to compensate by opening the pupil and letting more light in. Until the pupil reaches its maximum opening.

Once you reach your maximum opening on all three factors, you cant get any more light.

To increase your light, you have to go bigger on the objective, get better glass, or change your focal length.

This could get really complicated to explain. So we won't do it.

Clarity and quality of the image is dependent on several things. Not only light transmission, glass, and such.
You can have the best optics in the world and still get a poor view if the conditions are bad.

Smog in the air, heat waves, or light coming from the wrong direction can all effect the quality of the image you see.

I own the razor 85, I own a swaro 95, I own a Kowa 88, I own a weaver 65. I am currently looking at a leupold gr. One day I will own a leica televid.

I will tell you right now, if you are comparing the swarovski and the vortex, you missed most of your options.

Also, if you go with the swarovski, you need to dump that 20-60 eyepiece and get the wide angle 25 - 50 eyepiece. Everyone always wants that 20 - 60 but its an inferior eyepiece.

You asked "When it comes to spotting scopes what tends to be king? magnification or objective diameter? "
The answer is LOW magnification in wide angle, and large objective diameter, with a long focal length in the body, with fluorite glass. That is king.

This is why the Kowa prominar scopes are king.

Oh, and there is no lightweight version of this.
You have to choose.
 
This a good post , not to high jack your thread but i have a question,,, i am going to buy a 65 angle swaro soon ,, i was able to look through both the 20 to 60 power and the wide angle 25 to 50 power,, the field of view with both on 50 power was not even close ,the wide angle was awesome,,, will i miss that extra 10 power?????? The wide angle is about $250 more , anyone out there using the wide angle? Thanks
 
Really appreciate the response! Definitely some good info in there.

Torn between the Vortex and the Swaro mainly because the general consensus is that the Vortex's are great glass and it's hard to beat the pricing. Based on what I've read on here though Swarovski's seem to be the favorite child though.

I didn't see that 25-50 eyepiece as an option on any of the swaros. Probably need to expand my search a bit past cabelas though.

2 more questions based on your post now

1 - Why is the 25-50 eyepiece better than the 20-60 eyepiece? I'm assuming there's obviously more to it but at face value one could use the 25-50 range of their 25-60 eyepiece and achieve the same results?

2 - What else would you recommend considering? I really would like to not go much past the $2200 to $2300 range unless I felt that I was really missing out by not upping my budget.

Thanks!
 
Get the Swarovski if you can afford it.

I've tried to hop on board the vortex train. I do think they are a decent product at their price point, but overall build quality is not at the same level as a swaro IMO.

Do you have to have new? A good majority of my hunting stuff is second hand. All have worked great and I've saved a lot by doing so.

You should be able to come across a nice swaro 65hd in the 1500-1800 range.
 
I went to bass pro over the weekend while I was in San Antonio.

They didn't have the ATS but I got to compare an ATX 25-60x80 and a Razor HD 20-60x80 oustide about 30 min before sunset.

There wasn't really anywhere more than 1000 yards away to compare as there were a ton of buildings in the way but I really liked the swarovski's eye relief and how easy it was to get a full field of view. Maybe it was just the POS $19.99 tripod they had them setup on but I couldn't get a full field of view very easily in the vortex.

Still want to look through one but leaning towards the 80mm ATS currently.

Now I'm in a new dilemma (I know, first world problems...) because I was hoping to browse for a few weeks and try and find a used one, but for a few days I can get it for a total of 21% off from cabelas right now (5% from the cabelas credit card, 10% from a promotion their running, and 6% from active junky).

That's right around $2600 roughly after tax which isn't bad.

Having a hard time talking myself out of it and it's significantly cheaper than I've seen before. Do these go on sale very often? I know cameralandny just had a spotting scope sale however from what I could see Swarovskis were not part of the sale...
 
It took me 2 years of trading scopes before I found what works for me. my opinion is..

First off Chinese optics are not the same quality as European optics lets just get that over with. they're cheaper for a reason , end of story.

I tried the angled scope and didn't like it. but that's just personal preference.

HD is for bird watchers, hunters don't need it. if money is no object go for it but don't make it a requirement.


I like the 65mm Swarovski because of the size, if I only hunted from a back pack I would have stayed with that size but I don't. I found the 65mm to not gather near enough light in low light conditions at any power setting above 30. and 60 power was only useable in bright daylight.

Several scopes later I ended up with a 80mm Swarovski STS and I love it. I can carry it on my horse or quad and it works great from the pick up or at the rifle range. with a Outdoorsman tripod it fits fine in a smaller pack too if I need to. it will do anything I'll ever need to do and the quality will make it last longer than I last.

Buy once cry once. in the long run you won't ever regret buying quality.




















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
"HD is for birdwatchers, hunters don't need it."

Thats hilarious. I have one very serious question for you..........

WHAT IS HD?

Before you can decide if you need it or not, you must first know what it is.

Televison has made the term "HD" very popular.
You can slap the letters H and D together on anything and people believe it means one thing.

"high definition"

Some scope companies in fact use the term as high definition, some use it as high density, referring to the glass. You could legally brand your optic HD and that could designate that the scope was "Hopefully Delightful". For those companies that use it to mean high definition, like vortex, please, someone tell me what resolution the glass is available in.

This is the problem with branding and popular opinion.
Few try to understand what they are buying and prefer to purchase popular items, or big brand names.

I will break it down for you, Swarovski is king. Leica is queen, vortex is better than them all, and Kowa is not even a consideration.

If I were you, and you are looking at the leupold or the vortex, I would look into both.
Understand what you are comparing.

First understand what is magnification and how is it defined?
Magnification is often misunderstood. Some think that 10 power is the original image, magnified 10 times.
This is wrong.
10X magnification is the original image brought 10 times closer.

Sounds the same right?
Well its important that you understand that it is not the same.

Remember in my first post, when I said this can get really complicated? Well, here we go.

You have 2 features that give you your power level of magnification.

They both work together to come up with what is 10X magnification.

First, you have the focal length of the scope body. Lets say one is 300mm and one is 500mm.
Both scopes have a range of 10X - 40X magnification.
Whats the difference? Nothing right? Both are 10 - 40X magnification.
But, one has a 300mm focal length, and one is 500mm. What does that mean?

The scope body does its own magnification, before the eye piece magnifies the image for your eye.
A 300mm focal length body is less magnification than a 500mm body.
So, if both scopes are set to 10X what that means is that the image is viewed as 10 times closer, not 10 times magnified.
if the image was 10 times magnified, the 500mm body would be vastly closer at 10X than the 300mm image.

See, very important to understand.

What does this mean for you? This means that with a 300mm body, the eye piece has to be built to magnify the image far more, just to get to 10X.

This is going to effect the end result in a big way.
Because more eyepiece magnification is not good. Its hurts your light, and your edge clarity, and effects depth of field.

Most vortex users don't understand this, actually that is unfair. Most swarovski users don't understand it either.

Next, consider the glass. How many elements are in each option. What kind of elements are they?
You can brand a scope as using high density, or extra low dispersion, or fluorite, or even aspherical lenses.
ED, HD, UD, whatever. Even if the scope only uses one lens made of that kind of glass, they brand it as such.
Some scopes use one ED lens out of 6 lens elements in the body, and none in the eyepiece.
Some use one in the body, one in the eyepiece, ect.

Be aware of what you are buying. Also be aware of what the differences between them are.
What is fluorite, vs Extra low dispersion, vs high density, vs high definition.

By the way, anything that is advertised as high definition is a sales gimmick. Ask them to define the criteria for high definition and they will refer you to another set of terminology, not a range of defining specifications.

Look, I can go on and on about this for hours.
It can get totally boring, and totally confusing.

The bottom line is that it is very tough to compare one scope to another by looking through them.

Why?

Lets go back to your initial question.
Swarovski vs vortex.

An 80mm Swarovski stx has a focal length of 460mm if you buy the 20 - 60 eyepiece, and compare it to the vortex 85mm you will find that the vortex has a focal length of 540mm and comes with the same eyepiece range, 20 - 60.

So, what does that mean?

That means that vortex should blow away the Swarovski! It should not be a close competition.
The vortex has the larger objective, and has a longer focal length, so to get to 20X, the vortex actually uses less magnification.

What does that say?
Well it speaks to the next issue. Glass. Swarovski can produce a higher quality image using less light, (80mm) and Swarovski has to use more eyepiece magnification to get to 20X.
All this should boil down to lower quality.
But it doesn't. Why? Well, fluorite lenses, high density lenses, multiple lenses of higher quality, ect.

Its easy, and its cheap to give your optic a boost. High quality glass is expensive.
Boosting the focal length, and opening the objective allows for a better image, without having to use lots of expensive glass elements.

A little understanding of how these things work and how they all work together makes a difference in understanding what you are buying, and what you are paying for.

The question is what do you want?
What do you know about glass? Ever see an old piece of glass?
Does it get cloudy? does it discolor?
Why? Whats going on there?

Optical glass is not the same as beer bottle glass, but the principles are the same.

Impurities in the glass and glass properties effect the glass over time.

All glass will age. Even the glass in your Swarovski.
I love it when guys buy a new vortex and run out and compare it to their buddies 10 year old Swarovski.

The question is, 10 years from now, if you bought a vortex with many low end glass elements, what will age have done to that image?

How will two optics compare after the same aging?

If you are interested in Leopold, vs vortex, I would take your time, look around, see how they compare.

Be VERY specific in your inquiries. Contact Leopold customer service, contact vortex, ask them your detailed questions.
Then compare. Then buy. You will be happier in the end.

Also, don't rule out other companies. There are many companies out there making fantastic options.
Its amazing how many people buy into the hype of popularity. Vortex is absolutely killing this market.
There are many options that are out there, they are being totally ignored because they do not have the vortex popularity factor. Are they better? Are they cheaper? I will let you be the judge.

One thing is for sure, vortex marketing is amazing. They know their consumer. They know how to get you to buy.

Information is king. Are you an informed buyer? Are you an impulse buyer? Are you an influenced buyer?

Don't be an influenced buyer. Be an informed buyer.

I made a pretty good case for vortex earlier, explaining why they are able to achieve what they can.
The question is, what is the case for Leopold? What is the case for Kowa? What is the case for Nikon? If all things were equal, which they are not, where is the better buy?
Clearly in the example above, the Swarovski had more going against it than the vortex. But it still outperforms and outlasts the vortex. It also out prices the vortex.
What about scopes in its own price range? Does the vortex still do as well?

If you do your homework, you will find out.

If it was my money.................... I will bet that you will find the Leupold gold ring is under gunned, like the Swarovski, and still gives as good an image.

Look, I am not trying to be anti vortex, or pro vortex.
As was shown earlier, I own a vortex razor 85. Its one of many that I own.
I know how it compares, and why it compares. I know what to expect from it.

Do you? You are the one buying. What I know is useless. You gotta know.
 
Also, TX_Diver, be aware that when you looked through the ATX vs a ATM or ATS, the new X series of scopes only come with the wide angle eyepiece.

The 20 - 60 eyepiece that was popular on the S and M series scopes, was not a wide angle eyepiece.

You would have to go to that 25 - 50 wide angle piece in an S or M series scope to get wide angle.

Your questions about wide angle need to be explored.
Magnification and angle play into the other factors. Objective diameter is an issue.
The math would suggest that if you had a 65mm objective, a 460mm focal length, and a wide angle eye piece, at 20X magnification, you would begin to see interference at the edges.

Thats another funny thing about "edge clarity"
You often see the argument that the edges are clearer on one scope over another.
When some scopes actually have a view closer to the edge than others.
Again, this is all a factor of multiple things.

Wide angle is nice for finding things. It gives you a larger field of view. So, finding things in the scope are faster.
Some don't like that when they are on the subject, they have more background.
The image of the animal is 20X closer, so its the same size, but it may "feel" smaller since its surrounded by more background.

Thats a personal preference thing.

As far as missing the 20X option. Yes, that is a real thing. For me anyways.
I have a 30 - 70X 95mm Swarovski. When I use it, there have been many times when 30X was more than I wanted, and I wished I had the ability to go down to 20X.

This is usually when I am close and am trying to look at something very detailed.
the animal moves around and I have to adjust much more often than I would have to on 20X.

More of an issue when trying to count age rings on mountain goat, or sheep, than it is with muledeer or elk.

Will you miss the top 10X from 50 - 60X? Under certain situations, probably.

This is my personal experience and preference. This is not scientific fact.
I find that I use a vortex on lower powers at all times. Too much loss with higher powers.
I find that I use a Swarovski in the middle ranges most of the time.
I use a Kowa on high power more regularly than any of the others.

So, to answer the question........ No. I don't think you would miss the top 10X, but you won't know that. You will find yourself wishing you had it, but if you had it, I doubt you would prefer to use it.

Just my opinion.
 

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