Realistic expectations

I'm 51, live in the Midwest and have never hunted elk. I grew up thinking the closest I'd ever get to an elk was in the stacks of hunting magazines I read and re-read.

15 years ago, a work buddy talked me into beginning to apply for a Utah LE tag. He?s an avid elk hunter with quite a few hunts and a couple of nice bulls under his belt......so for him this tag has always been about shooting the biggest bull on the mountain. I guess he's the type of guy those units are meant to cater to.

I'm not that guy.

When I close my eyes and think about my ?some day? perfect elk hunt, I honestly don't picture sitting behind a huge bull. My mind goes to things like wall tents, horses, fall colors, watching the sun come up, good food, good company.......stuff like that.

My hunt will definitely be guided, and I want that person to teach me to hunt for a bull, as opposed to taking me to a bull. Does that make sense?

I don't want to hunt in the wide open desert and I don't want to sit on water holes in a tree stand. I want to get out and see some country. Most of all, I'd like to be as far away from the ?crowd? as possible and I'd like to be able to book at least 7 days of hunting. I'm willing to pay what it takes to accomplish that last part.

I want to wake up each morning in an elk camp, not a hotel. I want to park my truck and not see it again for a week or more and hopefully when I do, I'm loading it up with tasty elk meat. My perfect hunt would be working hard for a week or so learning, and killing one on the last day.

I'm able to make this hunt archery (wheels or Trad), rifle, or ML.........but if it's archery my limits are about 25 and 50 yards respectively.

Any bull i?d Be lucky enough to kill is 100% going on my wall too!! Not because of how big he is, but because of the memories I'll have (see above) of what will likely be the only elk hunt of my life.

So, knowing the information above and that my only harvest expectation is a chance at a representative bull and steaks, can anyone point me in the right direction Unit-wise with 14 points in 2018? Does anyone know any outfitters that cater to the hunt I want?

Thank you in advance for any advice!

CNF

Sounds like Roadless Bookcliffs is your ticket! It is an awesome area. I would have to check the draw odds, but you could probably get the archery possibly the muzzleloader tag.

I won't be much help on the original question; however, something else to think about. You could get that experience again (fall colors, wall tents, horses, no crowds) without 14 points in Wyoming and Colorado as long as you are getting a guide. You could do that same hunt in Wyoming with 0-2 points probably. There may be other states as well. Just something to think about if you want to go again!

Do you have any points in Colorado?

For Utah, bring up
www.toprut.com/
and go to Utah elk. Then click on "List" instead of map.

Then just click on NR and whichever season you want to know about. There are a number of decent units that can possibly be drawn with your points in archery and a couple in Muzzy.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

Book Cliffs was always a hope but I'll never get there with my points. One tag per year and it's at least 21 points.

Nope, no Colorado points. This Utah draw was something I got talked in to and then just kept getting a point every year until now. The buddy that got me started, claims he's holding out for San Juan or nothing. I ain?t doing that.

I know there are a small handful of units/ hunts I could draw, but it's been difficult finding Details about doing the ?wilderness- type? hunt I want to do.

Thank you all so much for your replies. I know I just signed up this morning......but I've been lurking for years, trying to learn from you.

I'm quite familiar with that top rut site. It's very informative.

My issue is more about linking my possible / probable units with the hunt I want. Am I looking for something that doeasnt really exist it Utah.....except Book Cliffs Roadless?

Thanks again!

I would keep building points in Utah and go on your dream hunt in WY . you can draw in the Thorofare this year but you have to apply before the end of this month. nothing in Utah would even come close as far as the wilderness experience goes . and the hunting can be pretty good too.


You will have to go with an outfitter and that might be the hold up. I bet they're booked so you may have to look ahead. build a point in WY at least for an insurance policy.











Stay Thirsty My Friends

Thank you OK. I'm sure that's great advice if my goal were to hunt somewhere this year. I'm more interested in finding a hunt to use the points I've built.

My UT hunt could be this year, or 3 years from now. Problem is.....Even in 3 years, heck 5 years, I won't be any closer to hunting Book Cliffs Roadless than I am today. I could be further away!

Not complaining, mind you, just stating the facts as I see them.

Happy Sunday all. It was -21F this morning at my cabin here in N WI. Air temp. Yikes.

LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-18 AT 10:49AM (MST)[p]There are other units in Utah that can check some or most of your boxes, but not all unfortunately. You'd either have to put up with other hunters in the field, or a late hunt that doesn't have the fall colors.

Manti or Wasatch muzzleloader would be one you could draw, and have a great experience with. But, you will see other people out and about, and you won't be packing in a tent camp 10 miles from any roads. But, you will get the fall colors, and a decent chance at a really nice trophy.

I have never hunted there so these Utah guys will have to tell you if there is any wilderness type hunts to be had that you can draw. I am only 1 year behind you with 13 points, but have done lots of wilderness hunts, so that is not so much a priority to me. Good luck.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

Thanks Tony,

Reading between the lines, are you saying a ?late? hunt is my best chance to have the least pressure? Are you aware of any outfitters in the Manti or Wasatch areas who do hunts anything similar to what I've described?

I'm more than happy to do my own research....but I sure appreciate the directional advice!

I think the Manti Muzzleloader would be the way to go if you are thinking about one of those two hunts

Is stay away from Manti muzz. Unless you want to share the mtn with the muzzy deer hunters.

Truth is my friend. You've built it up too much. If the hunt and experience are what u want, you can hunt Utah every year.

You can arrange drop camps, rent mules/llamas and enjoy the fall. And for what guides cost do it yearly.

Grab the Manti archery. Slip into the wilderness, or off the emery side and love life.

Grab a otc n slope Uintah tag and slip into the wilderness.

Huge bulls are rare. But elk hunting high country in Utah for the experience, your over thinking it. Come every year.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

Let's try to help you self evaluate what you said, for realities sake.

Would you be as happy with a spike bull on your wall, as you would if it were a 3, 4, 5 or 6 point bull?

If you say, "yes, I would be as happy with a spike as I would any bull", then your options open up a whole lot more because the opportunity to secure a spike elk tag are profoundly better and it's certainly likely a lot quicker to draw a tag, like every year, not waiting for years for your points to increase your odds.

A spike elk tag hunt can be just as rewarding as a mature bull tag, based on your stated criteria, for a great elk hunt experience.

A cow elk tag maybe harder to draw than a spike bull tag but easier and fewer points would be required to draw a cow tag, than a mature bull tag.

The meat from a spike or a cow elk may taste better than a mature bull, the sunsets are the same, the horses are the same, the tent is the same, the smoke from the campfire is the same, the trees and the meadows are the same, the creeks and ponds the same, the song birds are the same, the bugling sounds are the same, the elevation is the same, the sage smells the same, dust in your eyes feels the same, floor of the tent feels the same on your bare feet, the lies around the camp fire are the same, the cactus neddles in you knees and thighs sting the same, the smell of horse turds are the same, the muscles in your back hurt just the same, your lungs burn just the same, the oxygen in the air is just as thin, your body odor stinks the same, wind and sun makes your face just as red, your knife cuts the same, the color of the aspens and oak brush are just the same, your guide will be just as a big a jerk or your life long friend, you air fare will be just the same, the Dutch oven potates and the ribeye steaks will taste the same.........

Only a few differences, you can go sooner and the elk on your wall will not be a two point or large, and you will have to take a picture of that monster bull you enounter, rather than load in him in the panniers.

So........ if you really don't care how big the bull is........you can go on a great elk hunt this year, and learn to elk hunt way sooner than if you actually DO care about what you see when you look up on your wall.

I hunt for mature animals but there was a time in my life when I didn't care about the size of the antlers. Now I get as much satisfaction hunting for mature animals, and if I done kill anything, which is usually the case, the sights, smells, the human relationships are sufficient but only because I've killed many elk in the past. I feel very differently if I'm paying out big money for a hunt that doesn't include a mature kill, because I'm not paying to learn, have an outdoor experience or make new friends.....I am a different place than you are but I understand completely how you feel because I was once where you now are, if what you say is "really" how you feel.

I'd be happy to help you get a spike elk tag, in Utah. If you don't need a bigger antlered bull to be satisfies with your elk hunting experience.

DC

To clarify. Keep putting in until you can grab one of the nearly oil tags.

But having a guide "teach you" to hunt elk is silly.

Come out. Hunt elk, you'll learn a lot more doing it than a few years than a guide will teach you. Especially if your goal is HUNTING ELK and not being shown one.

I feel too often elk hunting gets blown into something its not.

Now if your desiring being in the middle of hundreds of screaming bulls and no pressure, you best try a CWMU. Its public land. A lot of us are hoping for the same.

I say come out and hunt!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

>Thanks Tony,
>
>Reading between the lines, are you
>saying a ?late? hunt is
>my best chance to have
>the least pressure? Are
>you aware of any outfitters
>in the Manti or
>Wasatch areas who do hunts
>anything similar to what I've
>described?
>
>I'm more than happy to do
>my own research....but I sure
>appreciate the directional advice!

Yes, the late hunts generally have less pressure, but there are still other hunters. Personally, I think you could have a really great experience on almost any of Utah's LE units. The other guys you see driving around are quickly forgotten once you get into a herd with a few Bulls going at each other. Hunting Elk during the rut is something that every hunter needs to experience at least once in their lifetime, a true bucket list adventure. Generally speaking, the muzzleloader season gives the best odds of having good rut activity.

As for outfitters, the Manti unit is pretty centrally located in the state so should be plenty of guys that can give you a good hunt there.

I guess I don't understand why you'd blow your Utah points on a hunt that isn't the one you want when you can hunt WY every year on a hunt that suits your desires better anyway.

You say the size of the bull doesn't matter as much as the wilderness elk camp experience, then WY is a no brainer . check it out , it makes the Book Cliffs roadless look a city park.


I have 20 NR points and I'm not in a whole lot better situation than you are. unless you're in that top few points pool you get kicked around like a circus monkey you have to get used to it. but don't settle for a hunt you're not happy with in Utah just hunt elsewhere until you get it or at least something close . points area terrible thing to waste.



Stay Thirsty My Friends

LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-18 AT 08:37PM (MST)[p][font size="1" color="#FF0000"]

We tend to think everybody should do it "our way", and any other way is silly.

What's silly to one man may make perfect sense to another.

Regarding just "go hunt".

Your criteria doesn't accommodate "just go hunt" however, in my opinion.

You said this:
"My mind goes to things like wall tents, horses,........

My hunt will definitely be guided, and I want that person to teach me to hunt for a bull, as opposed to taking me to a bull. Does that make sense?..........

I don't want to hunt in the wide open desert and I don't want to sit on water holes in a tree stand. I want to get out and see some country. Most of all, I'd like to be as far away from the ?crowd? as possible and I'd like to be able to book at least 7 days of hunting. I'm willing to pay what it takes to accomplish that last part.

I want to wake up each morning in an elk camp, not a hotel. I want to park my truck and not see it again for a week or more and hopefully when I do, I'm loading it up with tasty elk meat. My perfect hunt would be working hard for a week or so learning, and killing one on the last day."

Again, if we take you at your word, you want:

a wall tent

pack horses

you want a guide, to educate you

you want to "look for elk" not just shot one that your guide simply takes you to

you would like to spot for elk (hunt and find) and then sneek within shooting range

you want to cover a large area, seeing different kinds of geographic, flora and fawna

But, MORE THAN ALL THE OTHER WANTS, you want to be "as far away from the "crowd" as possible, again this you want MORE THAN ANYTHING ELSE.

you want to learn how to spot elk and learn about elk ways, and how to kill elk for six days when stock and kill one on the seventh day

If I listen closely to what you want, and I understood you correctly, I see absolutely no problem nor is it silly, if that's what you want. Remember, just because someone else thinks it's silly does necessarily make silly at all.

Getting a wall tent as far away from the crowd as possible requires horses. Therefore you need horses or access to them. If you want to have someone to teach you how to hunt elk as opposed trial and error, on your own, you need someone who will agree, by contract, to provide that training for you. for the number of days you want to pay for that training. If you want to focus on training and seeing elk country and then kill one on the last day, you need to hire a trainer who not only knows how to educate you but also has the skills to get you in a position to kill one, after your six days of fun and education. If you want to know where to go, to get as far from the crowd and still be where you can see and then eventually know how to hunt and kill an elk, you right, you definately need a guide. Not just any guide but a guide who understands what you are hiring him or her to do. Not just a guide that believes you are just hiring him or her to kill an elk regardless of the number of days up to seven or how much training in elk hunting you are receiving. You will need to be very diligent in finding and communication exactly what you are hiring him or her to do.

Having said that:

OchocoKid's question is a valid one, i.e.: is there a reason you want to hunt elk in Utah. I live and hunt elk in Utah but Ochhoco's reading your criteria thoughtfully when he asks, why Utah, when getting an elk tag, particularly an elk tag for "any sized bull elk". It is in fact, more realistic in Wyoming and your desire to get as far away from the Crowd is considerable more attainable there. So your reason for inquiring about Utah and not a different Western State is valid.

If there is some compelling reason for want to Utah, we can help but there are compromises that will need to be made, which are, spike only bull elk hunts unless you want to apply for many many years before hunting, or hunting a unit where there are low expections of actually killing a bull, in Utah there are few areas of public land where there will not be a crowd somewhere close by. Those are the realities of a Utah over the counter elk hunt. The rest of your needs can be met in Utah, with a guide, with horses etc but Wyoming may be, as OK has said, a better experience where more of your criteria can be achieved.

DC

I know some use horses on Mt. Dutton. mecham outfitters appears to have some. For your point level not sure if you can draw the late hunt, should be close on archery.

Might look at mid season hunt on the Manti unit. Can use rifles and hit the tail end of fall colors. Double c guides look to offer horse camp experience.

Good luck and good job knowing what you want. A big set of horns look pretty, but the experience is more important to me also. I know more than one guy that waited 15 years to draw the "dream tag", Only to find out that hunting for a trophy wasn't their thing. general deer hunt with lots of friends and family was a much better hunt for them!

LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-18 AT 09:10PM (MST)[p]If the Book Cliffs roadless is what you're really after, I would hold out for it. It's a pretty unique hunt. You may be a ways out from max points, but someone has to draw the random tag.

When/If you decide on the Book Cliffs, we would love to talk to you about what we offer. The things you describe in your dream hunt are the things we emphasize and pride ourselves on. We aren't the motel lodging and PBJ sandwich type. We know you deserve much better on your dream hunt. Wall tents, campfires, steak dinners, mules/horses, away from the crowds, and the feeling of coming as a client but leaving as a friend. That's how we run our business, specifically for guys like you. The Book Cliffs is home for us. You can see our website at www.huntwithgtoutfitters.com

Many of the people who speak of late seasons talk about busted points on the bulls and bulls on private land. And packing in may not be an option in the later season due to snow.

And of course, they are not in rut. If I were wanting the full experience, that would include some elk rutting/ bugling, so that means archery or muzzy season probably. First rifle in Utah is also during the rut, but harder to draw.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-18 AT 02:15PM (MST)[p]For the hunt you want, Google Thorofare in Wyoming, buy 2 WY elk points and go within 3 years.

You are not even close to drawing a unit where you -- park your truck and never see it again -- unless you count parking it at the outfitter's house and loading up in his truck. Even then you will still see other trucks and atvs during your hunt.

I won't breakdown your odds much, but you can have a back country horse back hunt on the Manti archery or Wasatch ML. You can hire the outfitter and pay him more if you want a wall tent away from the regular pull offs. Either way, once you step into the forest you will be hunting wild bull elk. If your guide is decent you will have to learn all about elk if you are hunting archery or ML spot and stalk. There are many guides out there who will do whatever you want if you are willing to pay for it.

I'd suggest taking the hunt for what it is. Is a bugling bull at 35 yards any different if you have not seen your truck for a week or if you drove in and rode a horse 2 hours in the dark? Either one give you rush. Been there, done that both ways.....

Forget the Late hunts if you want to learn to hunt elk. The Late hunts are great for killing and shooting bulls-- glassing yellow critters on a hillside and banging them from distance. Fun for sure, but not the same as them bugling in your face.

You can try to hunt now/soon or wait until never. Some people will tell you not to give in to a lesser unit. More power to them and more chance for the guy who just wants to go hunting. At 51 I wouldn't want to be planning a hunt that takes 15 years to never to draw. But that is just me. Seems lots of guys are willing to wait for the best unit or never draw. Or maybe they just don't understand how the point system works in Utah.....

>Sounds like Roadless Bookcliffs is your
>ticket! It is
>an awesome area. I would
>have to check the draw
>odds, but you could probably
>get the archery possibly the
>muzzleloader tag.


Both of these only have 1 nr tag, so everything is random draw.

Maybe get your feet wet with a any bull tag area.
Then see what you would like to do on the draw tag hunt.
This might be the ticket for ya.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]

Thanks so much everyone! What a great way to be introduced to a forum (this is my first ever). I'll be using all of the info you've graciously offered.

I'll try to clarify a few things.....

when I said ?teach me? to hunt elk, I should have been more clear. I just want to be part of the hunt, and I thrive on learning new things. (The only times I've ever been in the mountains have been on downhill ski?s, so I'll have lots of stupid questions

I'm not interested in using my points, vacation and money for a dedicated spike bull hunt. I've spent 14 years accumulating high end LE points and wherever I go I'd sure like the ability to take a mature animal if the opportunity presents itself. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile, right?

I guess I was just trying to get the point across that I'd never show up with some arbitrary number in my head that would determine success or failure......and that an average or even small bull to experienced hunters like yourselves would be a monster to me!

My plan is to hire an outfitter / guide for sure. I have the resources, and the understanding wife to allow me to pay whatever is required to have the hunt I want. Within reason of course.

I'd absolutely do the Wyoming thing in a heartbeat.....but right now I want to focus on figuring out how to hunt Utah before I turn 70.

Thank you again to everyone! I'll keep doing my own research and maybe update this thread one day with my decisions.

Whiskey Dog,

I looked at that website.....Very nice! Just based on that, I'm sure I'd love to hunt with you in the Cliffs.

Too bad I'll be wearing diapers and drooling all over myself by the time I'd get that opportunity?

LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-18 AT 05:53PM (MST)[p]So...... you sound committed to Utah.

Apply for one of the great limited entry hunts every year, like you've been doing. You'll either get lucky and draw or get another point.

If you don't draw, buy an over the counter spike bull elk tag on a general season spike elk unit, some are one the same units as the limited entry tags are on but your limited to killing a spike.

You will NOT loose you points if you purchase a spike elk tag on an spike only hunt/season.

Hire a guide or don't. Come and hunt spikes on your own or with a friend, in your own tent, with your own camp fire and by the third of forth day most of the "crowd" has gone home. You can begin learning elk hunting skills and enjoy all of the other things associated with elk hunting. Or you can pay more but a lot less than a fully guided hunt, buy a spike tag from a CWMU (a large private ranch operation, with less of a crowd and if your careful a lot of spike elk and learn how to hunt elk on a private low fence ranch). A think you could do that for less than $2,500 maybe even cheaper)

You could do this every year and have amazing experiences in Utah mountain country, while you are waiting to draw a dream tag on a limited entry hunt.

DC

Check out Bullpeakoutfitters.com
We would love to help you. Please contact me if you have any questions.

Boulder Mountain archery tag would fit you perfectly

2Lumpy is spot on.
What you seek could be had every year regardless if you draw your high end Limited entry tag.

Keep applying each year for your coveted Book cliffs tag!
But ALSO purchase a General Season OTC (Over the counter)Spike or Any Bull tag. This won't make you lose the points you've been building.
Doing this will give you time to hunt them now, knowledge and experience for when you do finally draw your high end limited entry tag.
Its a WIN-WIN!!!!!

Or do the Wyoming route and build a couple points and go kill a bull in Wyoming while you are building points in Utah.

DON"T WAIT FOR ONE HUNT THAT MAY NEVER HAPPEN!
Hunt now and get everything that you will ever want or need to satisfy yourself.

If having the whole package like what you described in your original post is what keeps you up at night, then step out your comfort zone or do whatever you gotta do to hunt now.

There is some good advice above for sure.





"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt

Who knows...sometimes Buck hunters will push a Bull..
Goose