Utah Deer Change Proposals

slamdunk

Moderator
Messages
10,389
I am writing this post as an addition to my Beaver Unit post as it has grown very large and I want to focus on change ideas.


As our hunting experiences decline, a number of Utah hunters run to neighboring states who "appear" to have better quality and management practices, which brings me to this question.
Why doesn't Utah try some of another states management tactics?


As I was applying for Wyoming Mule Deer for 2019, I noticed they have their state broken down into several "regions" like Utah does, EXCEPT.....they break down a specific region even further into "area's" and micro manage them accordingly.
Example- Region W is broken down into 4 area's and each of them have a different regulation. ) One of those has "any deer" (meaning buck, doe, fawn...anything). The next area is "bucks only, no restriction", the next is 3 point on either side, and the other is 4 points on either side only"

It is common Knowledge that any unit has areas with higher and lower concentrations of deer, as the habitat availability allows and disallows, which I am sure is what Wyoming's region W dictates.
Could a unit such as Beaver adopt the same types of regulations as we see in neighboring Wyoming?
Could it benefit from breaking it down into say, 4 "areas" within one unit?

Now before anyone says there are not enough officers in the field to support such regulation enforcement, I would have to assume that Utah has more officers in the field than Wyoming does. And at some point, we have to simply police ourselves and report violations.


I've heard the comments about our old "3 point or better" units like Book Cliffs used to have, that too many 2 points were shot illegally. Well, look how many are shot now and shot in the first two years upon the removal of the antler point restrictions!
I was on the Henry's that first year and it was an all out mass genocide of bucks and guess what happened? Emergency closure of both the Henry's and the Books immediately and blamed it on predators!

Thoughts??
Ready......go!
 
I think you have a good idea. But lets not forget that just a few years ago there were only 5 total general season deer units within the state. I can't remember off the top of head how many there are now, but I want to say it's 30 something. Could these smaller units be broken down even further? Theoretically yes, but would that the answer to the actual problem? I don't have the answer to that. I think the problem comes from multiple factors. Do we further limited permits? Do we close areas temporarily? Do we do more habitat restoration? Do we do more predator control? Do we pray harder for more precipitation? Do we limit urban sprawl? Do we do a point restriction? Obviously the answers are not cut and dry and whatever the solution might be it is not going to appease every hunter. I for one do not need to kill a deer every year. I'd be more than happy to wait to hunt deer every 3 or 4 years if it meant seeing more deer and more quality deer. But I can't speak for every hunter.
 
Because everything they do is influenced by the biggest con org $$$$$$$$$$.F.W.!!!!
37205hornkiller.jpg
 
Until the DWR Starts Managing for a Quality & Quantity Deer Herd Rather than JUST for Money nothing is gonna Change!

Well!

I Take that back!

It'll get worse!

Just Wait & see!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
THE FIRST AND BIGGEST PROBLEM WE FACE IS THAT THE DWR IS IN DENIAL AS TO THE ACTUAL HERD/UNIT PROBLEMS. THEY RARELY SEEM TO HAVE ACCURATE DATA AND THEY DO NOT LISTEN TO SPORTSMEN! THE RAC MEETING PROCESS IS A DOG AND PONY SHOW! UNTIL THEY FACE REALITY THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM, NO REAL CHANGES WILL HAPPEN.

Tag numbers need to be cut and they need a hard cap. If tag prices need to be raised to compensate for lost revenue, so be it. I don't believe the DWR is responsible for the revenue push though, because tag dollars go into the state general funds and not the DWR. I think Guv Herby is the greedy Bazturd here when it comes to pushing tag numbers.

I've hunted deer in Utah since the mid-80's and the biggest factors that I've noticed which seemed to increase hunting quality, was, after the state quit selling unlimited, over the counter tags. But the biggest single factor I believe was when the rifle hunt was shortened to five days.

Breaking the state into units was good for certain areas that really had large concentrations of hunters, such as Pine Valley/ Utah hill. To keep breaking units up into smaller areas would only help if the state had the self-control to reduce/limit tag numbers. So far they really haven't shown a willingness to do so.

With modern equipment hunters are more efficient which makes harvest percentages go up. Without serious equipment limitations, the only way to offset that would be to decrease hunter days afield. That means either fewer hunters or shorter seasons.

Some folks say that point restrictions don't work. The DWR seems to be the biggest proponent of this concept. If that is the case, please explain why it works for elk hunts spike/any bull, but can't work for mule deer. Can hunters only count tines on elk, but not so when it comes to deer?

Something needs to change, most of us would agree on that. Getting a consensus on what works/doesn't work and what changes need to be made will probably never happen.
 
I think it could be done pretty easily. Get rid of trail cameras. Get rid of attractants. I would say limit technology, but I think that would just cause more wounded animals. Last but not least, and this has to be done, and that is cut tags.

PS. Require the CWMU's give at least 20% of their tags to the public instead of 10%. That would double the cwmu tags, and slow down point creep.?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-18 AT 08:43PM (MST)[p]


My biggest issue is road hunters and the side x sides..40k rigs that believe there's traction somewhere in that mud..roads are torn up..
Give them 2 hours after sun up 2 hours before sund down..or not at all first 3 days..not at all during achery-muzzle sesson..sucks to walk away from rd only to have them ride up too you....smaked
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-18 AT 09:23PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-18
>AT 08:43?PM (MST)

>
>
>
>
>My biggest issue is road hunters
>and the side x sides..40k
>rigs that believe there's traction
>somewhere in that mud..roads are
>torn up..
>Give them 2 hours after sun
>up 2 hours before sund
>down..or not at all first
>3 days..not at all during
>achery-muzzle sesson..sucks to walk away
>from rd only to have
>them ride up too you....smaked

Really, that's funny shiz. Trucks don't tear up roads? Why not close roads to all vehicles?
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-18
>AT 09:23?PM (MST)

>
>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-18
>>AT 08:43?PM (MST)

>>
>>
>>
>>
>>My biggest issue is road hunters
>>and the side x sides..40k
>>rigs that believe there's traction
>>somewhere in that mud..roads are
>>torn up..
>>Give them 2 hours after sun
>>up 2 hours before sund
>>down..or not at all first
>>3 days..not at all during
>>achery-muzzle sesson..sucks to walk away
>>from rd only to have
>>them ride up too you....smaked
>
>Really, that's funny shiz. Trucks don't
>tear up roads? Why not
>close roads to all vehicles?
>


Ya!

Why Don't You do that & Enforce it!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I'm all for shorter seasons. Start the rifle on Wednesday till Sunday. I hunted more bucks and bigger bucks a few years ago, when it was a 5 day season. Some say 5 day hunts don't help. I thought it did. The bucks that made it through, didn't get shot the second weekend.
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-18
>>AT 09:23?PM (MST)

>>
>>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-02-18
>>>AT 08:43?PM (MST)

>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>My biggest issue is road hunters
>>>and the side x sides..40k
>>>rigs that believe there's traction
>>>somewhere in that mud..roads are
>>>torn up..
>>>Give them 2 hours after sun
>>>up 2 hours before sund
>>>down..or not at all first
>>>3 days..not at all during
>>>achery-muzzle sesson..sucks to walk away
>>>from rd only to have
>>>them ride up too you....smaked
>>
>>Really, that's funny shiz. Trucks don't
>>tear up roads? Why not
>>close roads to all vehicles?
>>
>
>
> Ya!
>
>Why Don't You do that &
>Enforce it!
>
>Ya!
And leave the brat kids and old geezers who can't hike and pregnant wives in camp, or better yet, at home! Who needs or wants them around when there's serious deer hunting going on?
 
I will be second to vouch that the 5 day season increased mature bucks in the unit I like to bowhunt. Then they did away with the 5 day season and there are just as many bucks with a much smaller proportion of mature bucks. The scoped muzzle loaders seemed to hurt quality also.
 
>I will be second to vouch
>that the 5 day season
>increased mature bucks in the
>unit I like to bowhunt.
> Then they did away
>with the 5 day season
>and there are just as
>many bucks with a much
>smaller proportion of mature bucks.
>The scoped muzzle loaders seemed
>to hurt quality also.

And the 100+ Yard StickFlippers!

And the 1,000+ Yard Long Rangers!

And the SWARO/BIGEYES/ETC looking 3 to 4 Miles!

And the F'N Illegal Trails Blazed in to every Nook & Cranny in this State!

And the Million Trail Cams!

The List goes on & on................!

I Can't wait for Heat Seeking Bullets to be Legalized!

They've been Hunting Big Game to Death in this State for Years!

Every Year they add More Hunts of some sort!

Hang in there!

It'll be way worse in the next few years if some Drastic Changes Ain't Made!

It Ain't Far off & a PISSCUTTER 2 Point will be the BRAGGING Buck!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-18 AT 09:33AM (MST)[p]I am all for going back to the 5 day seasons. I don't care what anyone says,those worked! They said it put people into too big of hurry and they killed bucks too fast without letting younger bucks go. That's what happens on a second weekend!
I also am a fan of APR (antler point restriction) areas. The DWR claims that at least 20% of spike elk survive the spike only hunts, so I'd have to think 20% of mature bucks survive a hunt to breed doe's in November?
Another huge factor has been dropping the hunter age to 12 years old and adding special youth season's. I am all for hunter recruiting, but that is ridiculous!
 
We need some Decent/Bucks with Genetics left come Rut Time!

But a Spike that's Dad was a Spike & His Dad was a Spike & His Dad was a Spike doing the Breeding for many Generations = a JUNK Deer Herd!

The Chance of a TARDville Buck on General Units making it past age 3.4 is almost un-heard of anymore!

If We are gonna continue with STUPID Buck to Doe Management let's at least say a certain percentage must be Mature Bucks!

Instead of all these Nubbins Bucks being counted & Boasting We met Our Buck to Doe Ratio's,GEEZUS!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Referring to the 3 point antler restriction, the arguement against has always been "too many 2 points will get shot." My reply to that is bulls#%*!!! Even Utards can count to three. Road hunters can count points on the little milk lipped buggers from 50 yards, you have those binocular thingys, right? How about those six guys studying the herd of does to see if maybe one of them has a pencil on his head. If the 3 point restriction won't work, I suppose that spike elk deal won't either. Everybody has a cell phone these days. Make a call and get the violators busted, hell they're probably shooting from the road anyway.
 
The fact of the matter is that everyone hunts for a different reason. Some like to think of themselves as "hard core" hunters and they are not satisfied unless they kill a Instagram worthy buck.
Then you have the people that just like to get out and hunt and if they see a forky they are pleased as heck to notch their tag.
The way I see it both groups have the same right to the deer. I can't help it if some people get their Kuiu camos in a wad when they see someone shoot a small buck. I believe that it is OK for a person to shoot whatever makes them happy because hunting isn't about anything other than getting out and enjoying time in the outdoors with family and friends. Not conforming to the standards of a few horn hunters.
 
Elk, I Can't agree with what your saying about the size of bucks that are breeding the does. That would be like if my wife had gotten pregnant when we were 18, when I was 5'-7" and 130# that my son would only grow to 4' tall, even though my dad was 6-5 and 240 pounds. Genes are carried through blood not horns. Hogg and Slam both mentioned 5 day seasons and I agree, they absolutely worked because most guys hold off the first few days looking for a better buck but after 3-4 days, the smaller uneducated bucks start hitting the ground. It's simple, we're killing too many bucks because of advanced equipment, non stop,pressure and long seasons.
 
I have a hard time believing that a point restriction would equal so many extra killed animals, if that was the case why do they keep offering more management tags? Those tag holders are having to count points before they pull the trigger, sure there is probably a few that do get shot, but it's not a doom and gloom scenario as groups try to make it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-18 AT 01:09PM (MST)[p]Soooo sounds to me like it's settled... 5 day hunt with a point restriction. Let's make it happen!
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-18
>AT 01:09?PM (MST)

>
>Soooo sounds to me like it's
>settled... 5 day hunt with
>a point restriction. Let's make
>it happen!


sounds good to me with possibly one change. Offer two types of buck tags on that hunt possibly. A smaller percentage of any buck tags for those who prefer a meat hunt and a separate draw for 4 point on one side or better. That should give different draw odds and still make both sides happy.
 
I like APR's but only for a couple of years. I also like the results of the 5 day hunt but dwr said MORE deer got killed. I don't belive it.
 
I would go back to a 14 year minimum age for big game. I have 12 year old triplet boys who all drew Beaver tags this year. Too be honest they weren't ready and I chose not to take them. If I could have spent unlimited time with one kid to get him proficient in shooting in the field, that would have been different. As it was, I didn't think they had a good chance of making an ethical shot under Utahs combat conditions.
 
In my opinion I could hunt every 3 yrs easy, if we could get to hunt quality bucks. I think we should cut tags to 50,000 total and double the price for the tag so dwr gets their money and we reduce the freaking pressure. The general season hunts with a rifle are a joke, a guy can't even find a spot to hunt. There you have it, thats my 2 cents.
 
>In my opinion I could hunt
>every 3 yrs easy, if
>we could get to hunt
>quality bucks. I think we
>should cut tags to 50,000
>total and double the price
>for the tag so dwr
>gets their money and we
>reduce the freaking pressure. The
>general season hunts with a
>rifle are a joke, a
>guy can't even find a
>spot to hunt. There you
>have it, thats my 2
>cents.

+1
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-18
>AT 01:09?PM (MST)

>
>Soooo sounds to me like it's
>settled... 5 day hunt with
>a point restriction. Let's make
>it happen!


Bullseye!!
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-18
>>AT 01:09?PM (MST)

>>
>>Soooo sounds to me like it's
>>settled... 5 day hunt with
>>a point restriction. Let's make
>>it happen!
>
>
>sounds good to me with possibly
>one change. Offer two types
>of buck tags on that
>hunt possibly. A smaller percentage
>of any buck tags for
>those who prefer a meat
>hunt and a separate draw
>for 4 point on one
>side or better. That should
>give different draw odds and
>still make both sides happy.
>

I suggested this idea on another post, glad to see someone else likes it! If I purchase or draw a "trophy buck"tag, it holds me to an antler point restriction and does not allow me to harvest a "last day meat buck".
The challenge will be limiting the hunter who drew a "yearling buck only" to letting a 4x4 walk away.
 
>I like APR's but only for
>a couple of years.
>I also like the results
>of the 5 day hunt
>but dwr said MORE deer
>got killed. I don't
>belive it.


I don't buy into it either.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to to believe more deer are killed in 5 days versus 9 or more.
 
>In my opinion I could hunt
>every 3 yrs easy, if
>we could get to hunt
>quality bucks. I think we
>should cut tags to 50,000
>total and double the price
>for the tag so dwr
>gets their money and we
>reduce the freaking pressure. The
>general season hunts with a
>rifle are a joke, a
>guy can't even find a
>spot to hunt. There you
>have it, thats my 2
>cents.

QUALITY BUCKS!

I Don't Think the DWR Gives a Rats ASS about Quality Bucks!

But I/We sure would like to see some!











I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
I would like to see it taken a step further and shorten all the deer and elk hunts a bit. As it is, Utah herds are hunted basically non-stop from Mid-August to November and in some units even longer. The non-stop pressure has got to take it's toll on animals and it definitely changes their behavior patterns.
 
Talking with the head of the whitetail deer program in Texas he brought up a few comments that stuck with me this year. He?s had some much success with the whitetails they have moved him to oversee the mule deer. His statement was that working with the Mule Deer Working Group their biggest concerns was lack of mature bucks in the herd. Now that is not what you will hear from the DWR when they talk about the Mule Deer Working Group. He also said that without questions the most effective way to increase mature bucks in the herd was to implement antler restriction. He also stated that most mule deer states do not have enough mature bucks in the herd to be considered health herds. When I talked to him about the concerns of illegal kills that the DWR always marches out, he actually laughed and said that is a standard answer for those not wanting to deal with add regulations. That the actual lose to illegal kills was negligible. He point was you're still saving more younger deer even if you have high illegal lose (which again he said was overblown in reality).
Now that was Texas, but look at it this way, Texas is a state that is not handcuffed by tag sales for budget. They are managing mostly private land. They are managing herds without trying to please ?the average Joe?s?. They are managing for healthy herds.
Again you could implement anterler restriction, you could rotate 5 units every 3 years on closing completely, you could cut tags to 50k and still rotate every current applicant through the system every 3 years. So many things could me done to increase quality and improve the health of our herds, but we allow some to give the DWR the voice to just keep it the status quo because that is what is easiest.
 
I Can show you a Mountain Range that is in such PISS POOR Shape even with Proper Management it would take several years to bring it back!

But the DWR Will Do Nothing!

Except Keep Selling Tags for said Unit!

You ever heard the Phrase:

F'D Up beyond Repair!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>Talking with the head of the
>whitetail deer program in Texas
>he brought up a few
>comments that stuck with me
>this year. He?s had
>some much success with the
>whitetails they have moved him
>to oversee the mule deer.
> His statement was that
>working with the Mule Deer
>Working Group their biggest concerns
>was lack of mature bucks
>in the herd. Now
>that is not what you
>will hear from the DWR
>when they talk about the
>Mule Deer Working Group.
>He also said that without
>questions the most effective way
>to increase mature bucks in
>the herd was to implement
>antler restriction. He also
>stated that most mule deer
>states do not have enough
>mature bucks in the herd
>to be considered health herds.
> When I talked to
>him about the concerns
>of illegal kills that
>the DWR always marches out,
>he actually laughed and said
>that is a standard answer
>for those not wanting to
>deal with add regulations.
>That the actual lose to
>illegal kills was negligible.
>He point was you're still
>saving more younger deer even
>if you have high illegal
>lose (which again he said
>was overblown in reality).
>Now that was Texas, but look
>at it this way, Texas
>is a state that is
>not handcuffed by tag sales
>for budget. They are
>managing mostly private land.
>They are managing herds without
>trying to please ?the average
>Joe?s?. They are managing
>for healthy herds.
>Again you could implement anterler restriction,
>you could rotate 5 units
>every 3 years on closing
>completely, you could cut tags
>to 50k and still rotate
>every current applicant through the
>system every 3 years.
>So many things could me
>done to increase quality and
>improve the health of our
>herds, but we allow some
>to give the DWR the
>voice to just keep it
>the status quo because that
>is what is easiest.

I sure wish Founder would implement a "Like" button.
Great post and insight M73!
 
I agree with shortening the hunt dates. 5 days
For rifle hunt. Get rid of the early rifle hunt. Get rid of the late muzzy hunts. Our deer herds need a rest, right now they are pounded from August to November. Cut tags. I would gladly pay double the price of a tag even triple and not hunt deer but every 3-4 years if it meant a better hunting experience when I do draw. I dont agree with antler restrictions. If someone is happy taking a small buck then good for them. I dont hunt for antler size or points. I just hope to find a mature buck to take. Do away with conservation tags, do away with expo tags. We need to get big money out of hunting. Increase tag prices across the board to make up for lost revenue. Or better yet have the dwr be financially accountable for the revenues they receive.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-18 AT 12:53PM (MST)[p]I wouldn't change a thing. Lotsa big bucks out there for those willing to get off their couch (and off the roads) and put in some work. As close to the "good old days" right now as it's ever been in my lifetime.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-18
>AT 12:53?PM (MST)

>
>I wouldn't change a thing. Lotsa
>big bucks out there for
>those willing to get off
>their couch (and off the
>roads) and put in some
>work. As close to the
>"good old days" right now
>as it's ever been in
>my lifetime.


Then you must be about 13
 
>Referring to the 3 point antler
>restriction, the arguement against has
>always been "too many 2
>points will get shot." My
>reply to that is bulls#%*!!!
>Even Utards can count to
>three. Road hunters can count
>points on the little milk
>lipped buggers from 50 yards,
>you have those binocular thingys,
>right? How about those six
>guys studying the herd of
>does to see if maybe
>one of them has a
>pencil on his head. If
>the 3 point restriction won't
>work, I suppose that spike
>elk deal won't either. Everybody
>has a cell phone these
>days. Make a call and
>get the violators busted, hell
>they're probably shooting from the
>road anyway.

Just a comment. NM implemented a 3 pt or better rule and the first year, a lot of 2 points were shot and left lay. The second year wasn't as bad.

It will happen in UT if it were to be implemented simply from the fact with all the other nonsense that happens based on comments made.
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-18
>>AT 12:53?PM (MST)

>>
>>I wouldn't change a thing. Lotsa
>>big bucks out there for
>>those willing to get off
>>their couch (and off the
>>roads) and put in some
>>work. As close to the
>>"good old days" right now
>>as it's ever been in
>>my lifetime.
>
>
>Then you must be about 13
>


?
 
I thought the whole point to going with 30 sub-units was to micro manage each unit. Not just have all units with practically the same buck/doe ratio and then call it good. Some of these ideas that are being thrown out, should be looked at on a unit by unit basis. Also, the non premium LEs buck/doe ratios should be more fine tuned. Instead of the currant 25-35/100 ratio, it should be more like 30-33/100, that way tags could be adjusted on a yearly basis easier.
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-18
>>AT 12:53?PM (MST)

>>
>>I wouldn't change a thing. Lotsa
>>big bucks out there for
>>those willing to get off
>>their couch (and off the
>>roads) and put in some
>>work. As close to the
>>"good old days" right now
>>as it's ever been in
>>my lifetime.
>
>
>Then you must be about 13
>

Apparently a year or two older than you.
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-18
>>AT 12:53?PM (MST)

>>
>>I wouldn't change a thing. Lotsa
>>big bucks out there for
>>those willing to get off
>>their couch (and off the
>>roads) and put in some
>>work. As close to the
>>"good old days" right now
>>as it's ever been in
>>my lifetime.
>
>
>Then you must be about 13
>

Between my own hunts and hunting with my dad I've been deer hunting for 23 years. These last 5 years have been the best years I've seen as far as deer numbers go. On GS units in the last 5 years just in my family we've taken 9 170?+ bucks, and that doesn't include the other 10 4x4s we've taken that didn't score well. The deer are here. You just gotta go find them. The last thing we need is more restrictions placed on us
 
>>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-18
>>>AT 12:53?PM (MST)

>>>
>>>I wouldn't change a thing. Lotsa
>>>big bucks out there for
>>>those willing to get off
>>>their couch (and off the
>>>roads) and put in some
>>>work. As close to the
>>>"good old days" right now
>>>as it's ever been in
>>>my lifetime.
>>
>>
>>Then you must be about 13
>>
>
>Between my own hunts and hunting
>with my dad I've been
>deer hunting for 23 years.
>These last 5 years have
>been the best years I've
>seen as far as deer
>numbers go. On GS units
>in the last 5 years
>just in my family we've
>taken 9 170?+ bucks, and
>that doesn't include the other
>10 4x4s we've taken that
>didn't score well. The deer
>are here. You just gotta
>go find them. The last
>thing we need is more
>restrictions placed on us


I agree. It seems that some areas get hot spotted but if a guy would get away from those areas, the hunting can be pretty good and it may be just a few canyons over.
 
>>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-18
>>>AT 12:53?PM (MST)

>>>
>>>I wouldn't change a thing. Lotsa
>>>big bucks out there for
>>>those willing to get off
>>>their couch (and off the
>>>roads) and put in some
>>>work. As close to the
>>>"good old days" right now
>>>as it's ever been in
>>>my lifetime.
>>
>>
>>Then you must be about 13
>>
>
>Apparently a year or two older
>than you.

OK Foreman!

I Don't want GPS Coordinates!

I Want You to go with me in the Unit I Hunt and have you 'SHOW THEM TO ME'!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>
>OK Foreman!
>
>I Don't want GPS Coordinates!
>
>I Want You to go with
>me in the Unit I
>Hunt and have you 'SHOW
>THEM TO ME'!
>

Elk,
I don't think that's a fair thing to ask.
I switched units last year and had a hell of a time finding any mature bucks. If I wasn't already locked into a dedicated hunter tag for the next two years. I would have switched units and told everyone how bad the unit sucks. This year I learned a lot about the unit and did much better. I have big plans for next year. I believe it takes most people at least three years to learn a unit.
 
Ridge,
I think that some of you guys miss the point. I believe you can find a few mature bucks on almost any unit in the state. But that does not mean that our balance is health. Too many guys are worried more about having a tag every year than they are about the overall health of the heard. There are units in better shape than others. The 30 units gives us huge opportunities to try some new things but the division flat refuses too unless they are forced to. And it is NOT biologically driven. Strengthen all of the units and don't rely on guys willing to dig out a few big bucks as the validation to continue to have unhealthy herd balances.
 
>Ridge,
>I think that some of you
>guys miss the point.
>I believe you can find
>a few mature bucks on
>almost any unit in the
>state. But that does
>not mean that our balance
>is health. Too many
>guys are worried more about
>having a tag every year
>than they are about the
>overall health of the heard.
> There are units in
>better shape than others.
>The 30 units gives us
>huge opportunities to try some
>new things but the division
>flat refuses too unless they
>are forced to. And
>it is NOT biologically driven.
> Strengthen all of the
>units and don't rely on
>guys willing to dig out
>a few big bucks as
>the validation to continue to
>have unhealthy herd balances.

I get what your saying.
I'm also saying that if a guy goes to an unknown unit and can't find big bucks. Then they will say it's a bad unit.
I know for a fact that guys will lie about how bad "their" unit is for the sake of not having it hot spotted.
I know there are guys that can spend several days on the Vernon unit and can't find a single 4 point. Does that make the Vernon a bad unit?
I don't think so.
 
>
>>
>>OK Foreman!
>>
>>I Don't want GPS Coordinates!
>>
>>I Want You to go with
>>me in the Unit I
>>Hunt and have you 'SHOW
>>THEM TO ME'!
>>
>
>Elk,
> I don't think that's a
>fair thing to ask.
>I switched units last year and
>had a hell of a
>time finding any mature bucks.
>If I wasn't already locked
>into a dedicated hunter tag
>for the next two years.
>I would have switched units
>and told everyone how bad
>the unit sucks. This year
>I learned a lot about
>the unit and did much
>better. I have big plans
>for next year. I believe
>it takes most people at
>least three years to learn
>a unit.


Hey Ridge!

Nearly 40 Years & You don't Think I know the Unit very Well?

The Unit is in Real Trouble!

Yes I've seen it coming for quite a few years!

As Long as the DWR get their Buck to Doe Ratio's everybody's Happy it seems!

I Wanna see the Mature Buck Numbers in the Count!

Or at least have a few left when the Rut Rolls around!

Them Nubbins Bucks are PISS POOR Breeding stock!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Ridge,
I get that as well. However I would disagree that the Vernon is a ?good? unit. It is a LE unit that takes 15 points to draw. The number of truly mature bucks on that unit is not anywhere near what it should be. I personally believe with antlers restriction on many general units you'd have more mature and bigger bucks. Like I said i believe you can find mature bucks on every unit in the state. But when you look at overall numbers our herds are out of balance and not as healthy as they could and should be.
 
>Ridge,
>I get that as well.
>However I would disagree that
>the Vernon is a ?good?
>unit. It is a
>LE unit that takes 15
>points to draw. The
>number of truly mature bucks
>on that unit is not
>anywhere near what it should
>be. I personally believe with
>antlers restriction on many general
>units you'd have more mature
>and bigger bucks. Like
>I said i believe you
>can find mature bucks on
>every unit in the state.
> But when you look
>at overall numbers our herds
>are out of balance and
>not as healthy as they
>could and should be.

Vernon is a "good" unit but not a great unit. It has never been meant to be like a premium unit. It does provide an average joe to see a lot of 3 point or better bucks within a few days and it takes 15 points because the number of tags is low compared to the general units and it's very close to the Wasatch Front.

Elk,
I'll have to take your word for it about your unit.
I have little knowledge about that area of the state but many other units are doing pretty good and have a lot of mature buck carryover.
Good luck in trying to get things changed for the better.
 
>>>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-18
>>>>AT 12:53?PM (MST)

>>>>
>>>>I wouldn't change a thing. Lotsa
>>>>big bucks out there for
>>>>those willing to get off
>>>>their couch (and off the
>>>>roads) and put in some
>>>>work. As close to the
>>>>"good old days" right now
>>>>as it's ever been in
>>>>my lifetime.
>>>
>>>
>>>Then you must be about 13
>>>
>>
>>Apparently a year or two older
>>than you.
>
>OK Foreman!
>
>I Don't want GPS Coordinates!
>
>I Want You to go with
>me in the Unit I
>Hunt and have you 'SHOW
>THEM TO ME'!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>I know so many people in
>so many places
>They make allot of money but
>they got sad faces
>
>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D

The old Bobcat wanting my secrets....lol

How come you're not out chasing elk with a muzzleloader? I suppose there's no good bulls left either.....(My buddies have already put two bulls on the ground, one being a real nice 6 point).
 
>>>>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-04-18
>>>>>AT 12:53?PM (MST)

>>>>>
>>>>>I wouldn't change a thing. Lotsa
>>>>>big bucks out there for
>>>>>those willing to get off
>>>>>their couch (and off the
>>>>>roads) and put in some
>>>>>work. As close to the
>>>>>"good old days" right now
>>>>>as it's ever been in
>>>>>my lifetime.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Then you must be about 13
>>>>
>>>
>>>Apparently a year or two older
>>>than you.
>>
>>OK Foreman!
>>
>>I Don't want GPS Coordinates!
>>
>>I Want You to go with
>>me in the Unit I
>>Hunt and have you 'SHOW
>>THEM TO ME'!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>I know so many people in
>>so many places
>>They make allot of money but
>>they got sad faces
>>
>>It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
>
>The old Bobcat wanting my secrets....lol
>
>
>How come you're not out chasing
>elk with a muzzleloader? I
>suppose there's no good bulls
>left either.....(My buddies have already
>put two bulls on the
>ground, one being a real
>nice 6 point).

Hey Foreman!

I Got a Secret for you!

There Ain't No F'N Secrets in TARDville!

Check your PM!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
A few of you are totally missing the point of this entire topic.
This isn't a penis size contest about who is a better hunter or who isn't getting off the roads.
I personally know some of these guys making comments and I have hunted with them. I can assure you none of us have clean tread on our boots and we've been hunting for several decades. When someone has been hunting a particular unit their whole adult life and is making complaints or comments about its steady decline in deer, it certainly doesn't imply he needs to simply "move over a couple ridges" and he'll find his healthy herds of plentiful game.
When a unit like Beaver USED to be a top general unit and it is reported to be in bad shape by ALL hunters in all seasons, there IS a problem......period!
 
Slam,
You nailed it. The problem is those that do have a few hot spot pockets are afraid of missing out on a tag every year. Then the DWR uses their voices and the voices of those that honestly do not have a clue to justify the easiest route of management. It's been the model for over 40 years.
 
Right on the head Slam and Muley.

We are only complaining about the Beaver unit because we know what it once was and have watched it dwindle to one of the poorest areas in the state. We are willing to give up tags, shorten hunting periods, go to antler restrictions, or even shut the area down in order to help the deer herd recover. I have heard lots of good comments on here, but now how do we have our voices heard. I saw on the Beaver unit comments that we should email [email protected] and let him know our feelings. Any other ideas?
 
5 day hunt, start it the last Wednesday of October. I'm willing to sacrifice hunting time. I coach football, my sons play football. We have a 4 hr drive to deer camp. So we would have Saturday evening and Sunday to hunt, and that's all. I'm fine with that. The unit I hunt, I've hunted all my life, my Father, Grand Father, Great Grandfather before. I know the benefit of the 5 day hunt. It worked. Let's try and get it done.
 
>Now we're talking.....thanks guy's!

Is that all your going to do is talk or are you guys going to take action? Change can happen.
 
Didn't you boys in Utah move your elk herd in the early nineties from a piss poor place to find a mature bull to a B&C factory within 10 years by going from any bull to spike only on most of the general elk units, then slowly starting to pick up on the LE mature bull tags? Has any one thought of doing this with your deer herd? I think you should pic a few units and try 2 point of less restriction rather than 3 point or better. Seems to me if you think there is a lack of mature bucks the last thing you would want to do it make people target the few "mature" deer that are around.

This was the strategy for the elk herd and it worked. I seem to remember the spike only hunts coming on around 1992. By 2001 or 2002 you guys were producing 400" bulls again. Then when people complained they had to wait too long for a tag, LQ tags were increased to move hunters through but the quality of the bulls went down. See where I am going? By forcing people to only shoot 1.5 yr old bulls you grow the number of mature bulls. Why wouldn't the exact same thing happen with your deer herd? Even your own DWR states that not all the spikes are killed on the spike only hunts. I am confidant that some of the forked horns would make it through.

If you've got 30 subunits it would be foolish to manage all the same. Several states have tried 3 point or better restrictions with mixed success. But non of them are overflowing with mature bucks. I say make some units 2 point or less and see what happens. What have you got to loose?
 
>>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-03-18
>>>AT 01:09?PM (MST)

>>>
>>>Soooo sounds to me like it's
>>>settled... 5 day hunt with
>>>a point restriction. Let's make
>>>it happen!
>>
>>
>>sounds good to me with possibly
>>one change. Offer two types
>>of buck tags on that
>>hunt possibly. A smaller percentage
>>of any buck tags for
>>those who prefer a meat
>>hunt and a separate draw
>>for 4 point on one
>>side or better. That should
>>give different draw odds and
>>still make both sides happy.
>>
>
>I suggested this idea on another
>post, glad to see someone
>else likes it! If I
>purchase or draw a "trophy
>buck"tag, it holds me to
>an antler point restriction and
>does not allow me to
>harvest a "last day meat
>buck".
>The challenge will be limiting the
>hunter who drew a "yearling
>buck only" to letting a
>4x4 walk away.


I don't mean yearling buck only tags. Either a point restriction tag(trophy tag) or any buck tag.
 
I totally agree Mulecreek. Why are we not trying some of these good ideas in some of these units and see which ones will work for Utah. Thanks for the input.
 
>>Now we're talking.....thanks guy's!
>
>Is that all your going to
>do is talk or are
>you guys going to take
>action? Change can happen.


I will present my thoughts and bring others input to my MDF committee and see if they are willing to present it to the RAC as a "voice" versus one single voice.
Yes Ridge....change CAN happen.
 
Good idea slamdunk, but I would like to see all these hunters that has a lot to say, I want to see how brave they are at the RAC meeting in Cedar City, and put their words in Action at the meeting. I will be their to see what their back bone is like. I here a lot of talk, but no ACTION.
 
The only way this gets pushed through is with a clearly written plan of action that has the backing of wildlife groups and the signature of thousands of Utah sportsmen supporting the action. The DWR does nothing without significant pressure placed upon them. They will give the usual excuses to avoid making positive changes.

This needs to be well organized to make anything happen. Anyone who has showed up at a RAC meeting hoping for change knows how far that gets things done.
 
I spoke with our regional director of the MDF and although he is very skeptical about RAC meeting's, he definitely feels we would be a good voice as a group as long as the plans are solid, have a long term goal and can be agreed on as a whole. He also clarified that the MDF is about "conservation" whereas the SFW and other such groups are "activist" groups. I reiterated to him that although we may be seperate entities, all groups should have the same end goal.....healthy big game herds.
The fuse has been lit.....
 
Blah, blah, blah, and more blah. I'm sick of hearing the same crap different post. I say limit the tags some more. It's done wonders on the pauns, Henry?s, and the generals for all these years. They?re a joke!! Cut it down to 1 tag per unit then we can all sit home and the whining would stop as we sit on the couch watching the mossback crew with a 100 spotters kill that 300 inch buck. Yoo hooooo!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-18 AT 07:51AM (MST)[p]I'm confused.

I was around when $fw started to "save the mule deer in Utah".

I was around when we cut tags to 90k

I was around when we went to 30 units.

I was around for 5 day hunts.

I've been around for all of it. HOWS THAT WORKING OUT?

Dudes need to get off IG. Quit watching shows. Quit it.

If you watch porn all day then go home to an average wife, of course your gonna be depressed.


Here's the facts.

Mule deer are on the decline. They are horrible competitors. Survival of the fittest isn't BS.

Utah mule deer were migratory. They left high country and headed to winter range(now the area from Brigham to Spanish Fork). Others migrated out onto the desert,I-15 stopped that.

The "good old days" were mostly a result of predator eradication via every means possible, including massive poisoning.

The reality is Utah is one of the fastest growing states in the nation. Productive land is swallowed. We are in a horrendous drought.

Quit watching deer porn. Stop believing somewhere has all the answers. Stop believing if we just cut out another 10,000 or more hunters all will be well.

The Henry's are a result of no hunting. Same as AI.

How is shutting down hunting good for hunters? Or good for animals(tag fees, Pittman Robinson)?

I-15 ain't leaving. You guys all had 6 kids, they ain't either. Water is going to become even more scarce. Time to live in the present.

Here is the dirty little secret:

You don't want it bad enough. You want it easy.

You want to kill big deer like FOUNDER, but aren't willing to pay the price.

You have bought into the notion that gadgets and tech equal big deer.

You like to #####, but deep down aren't willing to pay the price.

There are guys who live in Utah still notching about elk hunting(during the golden age of elk).

I saw one of the biggest deer of my life this year. He is still alive. We weren't willing to forsake our hunting camp to focus on him. Truth is, 99% of You are the same, and there ain't a thing wrong with that. But be honest about it


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-18 AT 08:51AM (MST)[p]Hoss,
You?ve got a few things right. You?re just a little confused on who's playing each role.
You?re spot on when you say quit your bitchiing and understand that things have changed and will continue to change. Population is growing and the resource is shrinking, all correct assessments.

Truth is we put too much pressure on a fragile resource and we manage for ease and public appeasement. Not for actually healthy herds.

I'm glad you saw a big deer, good for you! I shot the biggest deer I've personally taken this year. In fact the family went 5 for 5 on 4 points. Doesn?t mean the herd is health be cause we put in a crazy amount of time scouting and hunting. We wanted it bad enough so we put the time in. However in doing so we also spent more time than most looking at the overall health and dynamic of the herd.

Do nothing and only keep to the status quo and we will only be worse off than we currently are. That seems completely irresponsible too me.
 
Yes Hos, you are living in a dream world, so stay home and keep dreaming. I have been to Rac meetings, and even got up and voiced my opinion. So I do have a back bone, but it did no good. All they told me was that the deer are out there somewhere, and I just had to go find them. I appreciate Mule taking this on and get someone to talk to the rac that may help the Beaver unit. This unit needs help and we are not trying to figure out a way to keep hunting, we are trying to figure out a way to save the deer herd. Thanks to all those with ideas that may help this unit recover.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-18
>AT 07:51?AM (MST)

>
>I'm confused.
>
>I was around when $fw started
>to "save the mule deer
>in Utah".
>
>I was around when we cut
>tags to 90k
>
>I was around when we went
>to 30 units.
>
>I was around for 5 day
>hunts.
>
>I've been around for all of
>it. HOWS THAT WORKING
>OUT?
>
>Dudes need to get off IG.
> Quit watching shows.
>Quit it.
>
>If you watch porn all day
>then go home to an
>average wife, of course your
>gonna be depressed.
>
>
>Here's the facts.
>
>Mule deer are on the decline.
> They are horrible competitors.
> Survival of the fittest
>isn't BS.
>
>Utah mule deer were migratory.
>They left high country and
>headed to winter range(now the
>area from Brigham to Spanish
>Fork). Others migrated out
>onto the desert,I-15 stopped that.
>
>
>The "good old days" were mostly
>a result of predator eradication
>via every means possible, including
>massive poisoning.
>
>The reality is Utah is one
>of the fastest growing states
>in the nation. Productive
>land is swallowed. We
>are in a horrendous drought.
>
>
>Quit watching deer porn. Stop
>believing somewhere has all the
>answers. Stop believing if
>we just cut out another
>10,000 or more hunters all
>will be well.
>
>The Henry's are a result of
>no hunting. Same as
>AI.
>
>How is shutting down hunting good
>for hunters? Or good
>for animals(tag fees, Pittman Robinson)?
>
>
>I-15 ain't leaving. You guys
>all had 6 kids, they
>ain't either. Water is
>going to become even more
>scarce. Time to live
>in the present.
>
>Here is the dirty little secret:
>
>
>You don't want it bad enough.
> You want it easy.
>
>
>You want to kill big deer
>like FOUNDER, but aren't willing
>to pay the price.
>
>You have bought into the notion
>that gadgets and tech equal
>big deer.
>
>You like to #####, but deep
>down aren't willing to pay
>the price.
>
>There are guys who live in
>Utah still notching about elk
>hunting(during the golden age of
>elk).
>
>I saw one of the biggest
>deer of my life this
>year. He is still
>alive. We weren't willing
>to forsake our hunting camp
>to focus on him.
>Truth is, 99% of You
>are the same, and there
>ain't a thing wrong with
>that. But be honest
>about it
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.

+1
 
Let me see if I have this! Many of you believe the Beaver deer herd is in bad shape and that there aren't enough deer and/or bucks to provide "quality" in the hunts according to your personal definition of "quality". You also admit that the Beaver UNIT is in bad shape with the loss of good habitat/water/cover/forage. And so your solution is to split the unit up and reduce the number of buck permits and also find ways to reduce the success rates in order to grow the population and increase the buck to doe ratios, thus adding more deer to a habitat that is already over-utilized. Hmmmm!
Seems to me we're doing this bass-ackwards. Instead of eliminating and/or shortening hunts in order to give the deer herds a rest, how about if we eliminate more of the deer in order to give the habitat a rest. Which solution in better in the long run?

FWIW, maybe Hoss is suggesting you get up off the couch and actually do some habitat work.
 
I have family in Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho. Guess what.

"There ain't deer like there once was" is spoken in all 3 states.

I'm listening to dudes yearly with "cut tags", "shut it down", "quality".

Same dudes have dedicated tags, trail cam the mountain, attend the expo, want the Beaver to remain top 5 elk unit.

I live 9 miles from AI. It has huge deer. It also wasn't hunted, and now has only 2 tags.

Is shutting the deer hunt down gonna stop drought? Urban expansion? I-15 traffic? Poaching? Commercialisation of hunting?

No. It will further discourage kids from the area in getting in to hunting. It will strangle money. It will weaken political power.

We cut tags. We cut seasons. We cut units. We have done all that. Did it work? Obviously not.

Losing hunters, hunters dollars, hunter political clout ONLY HURTS HUNTING.

Guys who TRULY want big deer, always seem to find them. The other 99%, are busy enjoying the experience, time with folks we love, in places we love.

Its no conspiracy. The majority are not willing to sit home, so a few dudes can become IG superstars.

The goal should be more hunters, more hunting, more hunter dollars and votes.




From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
>FWIW, maybe Hoss is suggesting you
>get up off the couch
>and actually do some habitat
>work.

FWIW, I am a committee member of the MDF Utah County Chapter and we DO habitat projects all over.
I did see habitat restoration on the Beaver with reseeding projects in the burn areas. That's fantastic!
Now enlighten me what anyone else is doing besides just "taking" or reaping the benefits of the actual work others are doing?
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-18 AT 05:17PM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-18
>AT 07:51?AM (MST)

>
>I'm confused.
>
>I was around when $fw started
>to "save the mule deer
>in Utah".
>
>I was around when we cut
>tags to 90k
>
>I was around when we went
>to 30 units.
>
>I was around for 5 day
>hunts.
>
>I've been around for all of
>it. HOWS THAT WORKING
>OUT?
>
>Dudes need to get off IG.
> Quit watching shows.
>Quit it.
>
>If you watch porn all day
>then go home to an
>average wife, of course your
>gonna be depressed.
>
>
>Here's the facts.
>
>Mule deer are on the decline.
> They are horrible competitors.
> Survival of the fittest
>isn't BS.
>
>Utah mule deer were migratory.
>They left high country and
>headed to winter range(now the
>area from Brigham to Spanish
>Fork). Others migrated out
>onto the desert,I-15 stopped that.
>
>
>The "good old days" were mostly
>a result of predator eradication
>via every means possible, including
>massive poisoning.
>
>The reality is Utah is one
>of the fastest growing states
>in the nation. Productive
>land is swallowed. We
>are in a horrendous drought.
>
>
>Quit watching deer porn. Stop
>believing somewhere has all the
>answers. Stop believing if
>we just cut out another
>10,000 or more hunters all
>will be well.
>
>The Henry's are a result of
>no hunting. Same as
>AI.
>
>How is shutting down hunting good
>for hunters? Or good
>for animals(tag fees, Pittman Robinson)?
>
>
>I-15 ain't leaving. You guys
>all had 6 kids, they
>ain't either. Water is
>going to become even more
>scarce. Time to live
>in the present.
>
>Here is the dirty little secret:
>
>
>You don't want it bad enough.
> You want it easy.
>
>
>You want to kill big deer
>like FOUNDER, but aren't willing
>to pay the price.
>
>You have bought into the notion
>that gadgets and tech equal
>big deer.
>
>You like to #####, but deep
>down aren't willing to pay
>the price.
>
>There are guys who live in
>Utah still notching about elk
>hunting(during the golden age of
>elk).
>
>I saw one of the biggest
>deer of my life this
>year. He is still
>alive. We weren't willing
>to forsake our hunting camp
>to focus on him.
>Truth is, 99% of You
>are the same, and there
>ain't a thing wrong with
>that. But be honest
>about it
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.


Everything you stated is true, except the 6 kids. I only have five, so kiss my arse ;-) All the more reason to reduce pressure on what is left of the herds. Nobody said anything about shutting down hunting. Pittman/Robertson revenues continue to increase. Utah's population increase is a real problem. Let's shut the gates ;-) Actually the population increase is the biggest reason I want out of this state. But I will still come back and hunt occasionally ;-)
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-18 AT 07:08PM (MST)[p]I remember years ago standing in line at Hurst Ben Franklin in St. George to buy a deer tag and there was this guy preaching to us all on his soapbox that he was forming this alliance and was going to bring the deer herd back. Any guesses who that was? Now it's been 25 years and nothing?s changed. You can cut all the tags you want and it will do no good!!! That is not the answer!!!! Look at what happened to Browse, the Paunsaugunt, the Henry?s. Close them down and open them back up and doesn't matter they are shot out in a few years. Attend a RAC now that's a laugh. I have news for you all. Without some major alliance into a group with numbers you're just wasting your time. Go ahead, you can comment all you want til your blue in the face and it will do absolutely nothing. I used to attend a lot of those RACs and made my voice heard to no avail. Stood up there contesting all the crap that's taken place. Was one of the only ones there to contest mr peays expo tag crap. News flash! The decision was already made. I'm just glad I was able to experience the good old days, because if I had only the experience of what it is now to go off of, I don't know if I would be hunting.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-18
>AT 07:08?PM (MST)

>
>I remember years ago standing in
>line at Hurst Ben Franklin
>in St. George to buy
>a deer tag and there
>was this guy preaching to
>us all on his soapbox
>that he was forming this
>alliance and was going to
>bring the deer herd back.
>Any guesses who that was?
>Now it's been 25 years
>and nothing?s changed. You can
>cut all the tags you
>want and it will do
>no good!!! That is not
>the answer!!!! Look at what
>happened to Browse, the Paunsaugunt,
>the Henry?s. Close them down
>and open them back up
>and doesn't matter they are
>shot out in a few
>years. Attend a RAC now
>that's a laugh. I have
>news for you all. Without
>some major alliance into a
>group with numbers you're just
>wasting your time. Go ahead,
>you can comment all you
>want til your blue in
>the face and it will
>do absolutely nothing. I used
>to attend a lot of
>those RACs and made my
>voice heard to no avail.
>Stood up there contesting all
>the crap that's taken place.
>Was one of the only
>ones there to contest mr
>peays expo tag crap. News
>flash! The decision was already
>made. I'm just glad I
>was able to experience the
>good old days, because if
>I had only the experience
>of what it is now
>to go off of, I
>don't know if I would
>be hunting.

+1
From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
30,
Thanks for the input. I had no idea how the system worked. This is all new to me. I figured it all happened on the Internet forums and 5 RAC meetings in the state.
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Nov-06-18
>>AT 07:08?PM (MST)

>>
>>I remember years ago standing in
>>line at Hurst Ben Franklin
>>in St. George to buy
>>a deer tag and there
>>was this guy preaching to
>>us all on his soapbox
>>that he was forming this
>>alliance and was going to
>>bring the deer herd back.
>>Any guesses who that was?
>>Now it's been 25 years
>>and nothing?s changed. You can
>>cut all the tags you
>>want and it will do
>>no good!!! That is not
>>the answer!!!! Look at what
>>happened to Browse, the Paunsaugunt,
>>the Henry?s. Close them down
>>and open them back up
>>and doesn't matter they are
>>shot out in a few
>>years. Attend a RAC now
>>that's a laugh. I have
>>news for you all. Without
>>some major alliance into a
>>group with numbers you're just
>>wasting your time. Go ahead,
>>you can comment all you
>>want til your blue in
>>the face and it will
>>do absolutely nothing. I used
>>to attend a lot of
>>those RACs and made my
>>voice heard to no avail.
>>Stood up there contesting all
>>the crap that's taken place.
>>Was one of the only
>>ones there to contest mr
>>peays expo tag crap. News
>>flash! The decision was already
>>made. I'm just glad I
>>was able to experience the
>>good old days, because if
>>I had only the experience
>>of what it is now
>>to go off of, I
>>don't know if I would
>>be hunting.
>
>+1
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.


HaHa! 25 years ago I was writing up and selling licenses at Hurst Sports/Ben Franklin/Ace Hardware. Not sure who was telling you that though. it sure wasn't me. Maybe it was Nick, Cory or Ron. That was a long time ago for sure.
 
Another thing, your group or alliance can't be just 20 guys or gals. You?re going to have to get numbers equal or greater than SFW or you're just pissin in the wind!!!!!! I would be the first to join if you're actually going to represent hunters. Again tag cuts are not the answer!!! I remember when tags were unlimited and 250k+ hunters were hunting deer. We had good old 30 30s and 06s with plain old 4 power scopes. Also, muzzys with iron sites patched round ball and recurves. Guess what? Big bucks!! Why? Success rates were lower and more bucks lived to maturity that 5 year window. My biggest buck was killed on the general with a 30 30 in my hands. My grandpa killed one of the biggest bucks to come off pine valley with a 30 30 in his hands. It was 45 inches wide. The question is, how many of you could sacrifice some of your high tech equipment to see bucks like that roaming the hills again? That's what its going to take, not the same old cut the tags crap. I'll admit shorter seasons and altering seasons would help, but it would be just a bandaid, as technological advances would continue to work against. We sure took a step backward with scopes on muzzleloaders. What a joke!!!! Again, I surveyed against that crap to no avail.
 
30,
It's apparent you have paid close attention to my past posts on this subject across the board. I would say i have a better than average grip on understanding of how the system works on getting changes actually made. But maybe that's just me. Thanks again for the input and obvious passion on the subject.
 
Heck yeh

Go to 1 point system, why do we have 2 point systems Bonus/Preference when every tag is a draw tag

Robb
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-18 AT 07:49AM (MST)[p]30 definitely isn't paying attention.

I am the one who started these two posts and "cutting tags" has never been the main goal or objective here.
However, I do agree and if he would have been following before attacking us, I clearly mentioned long range muzzleloaders and archery tackle playing a major part in higher success rates.

And I've only seen one single comment about poor habit conditions and people getting involved.
It appears that 99% of sportsmen want to just "take" without giving back anything, yet the one's here who actually want to help improve our passion and heritage, are getting crucified for wanting to do more.
I posted in the general forum under "Project Mule Deer" and only two people commented on it, yet there are hundreds of negative comments on my two posts about Beaver and other units within the state.
Everyone just wants to "take".....
 
Slam,
My bad on adding to the internet stirring. I agree that we need to stay focused on possible changes to improve the herd.

I do not think that cutting the tags is the answer for every unit. I think there are many options that can actually be put in place that could increase tags. But I will stick to my guns that some units would greatly benefit from tags cuts and some could even be shutdown for several years. A monitored rotation would greatly benefit the herds by giving them the occasional break. I know that is not something a lot of people will support but it doesn't change my view. In the past too many sportsmen, RAC members, WB members, Sportsmens Group presidents and board members have been afraid of being the "bad guy". Well maybe if we had a few more "bad guys" willing to make the tough decisions we would not be in as bad of situation with our deer herds.
 
Slam.

Its no secret how I, and many others feel about $fw. Many, including myself are happy to let $FW take the heat for the corruption they started and profit off of. Having said that, last I checked MDF siphons off that as well. So before you wander in throwing around how MDF is the only group doing anything, and no one else cares, let me point out it isn't happening in a vacuum. MDF has profited greatly from the expo, and banquets tags. While I believe they are more accountable than $fw, the fact still remains it has no problem taking public money to finance itself. Lets also not look past the massive amount of projects it does on PRIVATE land.
I think MDF is a positive to deer overall, but its also a special interest group funded in large part by the public which you are so quick to brow beat.
If your not going to do projects for deer then give the money back, or simply, MDF got paid to do a job, we expect it to do so.

I'm not a member because of that $fw taint on it. I am a member of RMEF, and like MDF they take public money. If my chapter leaders were out in public smacking the public, my answer would be the same.

DON'T BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU.


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Slam.

I want to backtrack off my last post. I read it again and I don't want it misinterpreted.

Its not productive to denigrate the public. I like your ideas on weapon tech. Others won't. I watched what tag cuts brought, a complete loss of political clout. We complain about the loss of connection between the public and hunters, yet WE cut out 150,000 of those connections. We ##### about funding, but got rid of tag buyers.

So don't take it personal when folks like myself point out that we have been down some of these roads, which haven't worked.

MDF is tied to $FW. It does so willingly. In doing so it gets the mistrust $FW earned. The public at large is very suspicious of $FW, so its not unreasonable that some suspicion hits MDF.

Lastly. A ton of dudes HAVE tried. We have been to the RACS. Spoken out. Made calls, written letters. Donated time, money.

You won't get converts attacking them, or any others, thus my last line.

Text is bad because emotion is often misconstrued.



From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
Hos....with all do respect, the MDF is not tied to the SFW in any way shape or form.
The ONLY thing they do together is a partnership for the expo, period.
 
>Slam.
>
>I want to backtrack off my
>last post. I read
>it again and I don't
>want it misinterpreted.
>
>Its not productive to denigrate the
>public. I like your
>ideas on weapon tech.
>Others won't. I watched
>what tag cuts brought, a
>complete loss of political clout.
>We complain about the loss
>of connection between the public
>and hunters, yet WE cut
>out 150,000 of those connections.
> We ##### about funding,
>but got rid of tag
>buyers.
>
>So don't take it personal when
>folks like myself point out
>that we have been down
>some of these roads, which
>haven't worked.
>
>MDF is tied to $FW.
>It does so willingly.
>In doing so it gets
>the mistrust $FW earned.
>The public at large is
>very suspicious of $FW, so
>its not unreasonable that some
>suspicion hits MDF.
>
>Lastly. A ton of dudes
>HAVE tried. We have
>been to the RACS.
>Spoken out. Made calls,
>written letters. Donated time,
>money.
>
>You won't get converts attacking them,
>or any others, thus my
>last line.
>
>Text is bad because emotion is
>often misconstrued.
>
>
>
>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>PUBLIC LAND.

We didn't cut out 150,000 connections. They just aren't getting a tag every year. Less tag sales isn't less revenue to the DWR. License sales revenue goes into the Utah general fund. Your logic is flawed.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-18
>AT 07:49?AM (MST)

>
>30 definitely isn't paying attention.
>
>I am the one who started
>these two posts and "cutting
>tags" has never been the
>main goal or objective here.
>
>However, I do agree and if
>he would have been following
>before attacking us, I clearly
>mentioned long range muzzleloaders and
>archery tackle playing a major
>part in higher success rates.
>
>
>And I've only seen one single
>comment about poor habit conditions
>and people getting involved.
>It appears that 99% of sportsmen
>want to just "take" without
>giving back anything, yet the
>one's here who actually want
>to help improve our passion
>and heritage, are getting crucified
>for wanting to do more.
>
>I posted in the general forum
>under "Project Mule Deer" and
>only two people commented on
>it, yet there are hundreds
>of negative comments on my
>two posts about Beaver and
>other units within the state.
>
>Everyone just wants to "take".....

I've had 5 big game tags this year (archery deer, archery elk, antlerless deer, doe pronghorn and antlerless elk) and I haven't "taken" ANY of them! I've paid the legally established prices just like everyone else I know. Many times in the past I've gone beyond that with donations of time, energy and money, but personal and family circumstances in the last 4 years have made that more difficult and this year I couldn't do it. But I assure you, I still paid the required prices just like I did for everything I "took" from Walmart. Maybe you don't approve of the way I paid for them, but without it (and the other 400,000 or so
customers who did the same thing), you probably couldn't afford to hunt the few big game animals we would end up having. We "takers" provide at least 78% of the DWR's budget of $94,436,364 in the form of license fees, application fees, permit fees, and federal taxes on hunting and fishing equipment.

And just because I didn't participate in an organized project, doesn't mean I didn't give back to a hobby I dearly love. I paid for and mentored a grandson on 2 of my tags (a depredation antlerless deer tag and a CWMU doe pronghorn tag) and he shot a fawn doe on a friend's cornfield which was his first big game animal. (I messed up his chance for the doe pronghorn by trying to get the herd closer than they needed to be.) I also paid for and took my daughter, grandson and son-in-law (his first hunt) on the early rifle deer hunt on the Kamas unit, but we were rained/snowed out due to a leaky tent I thought was ok. They all still loved the time we spent together and they want to do it again next year with better preparation, of course.

Unfortunately, the arrogance displayed by folks who think they are somehow more worthy of the benefits provided by the system simply because they pay for those benefits differently than others is divisive and detrimental to our unity. Those projects are simply part of the price for the tags and the money "taken" from the public by the organization doing the project. Disrespect doesn't help your cause!
 
>>Slam.
>>
>>I want to backtrack off my
>>last post. I read
>>it again and I don't
>>want it misinterpreted.
>>
>>Its not productive to denigrate the
>>public. I like your
>>ideas on weapon tech.
>>Others won't. I watched
>>what tag cuts brought, a
>>complete loss of political clout.
>>We complain about the loss
>>of connection between the public
>>and hunters, yet WE cut
>>out 150,000 of those connections.
>> We ##### about funding,
>>but got rid of tag
>>buyers.
>>
>>So don't take it personal when
>>folks like myself point out
>>that we have been down
>>some of these roads, which
>>haven't worked.
>>
>>MDF is tied to $FW.
>>It does so willingly.
>>In doing so it gets
>>the mistrust $FW earned.
>>The public at large is
>>very suspicious of $FW, so
>>its not unreasonable that some
>>suspicion hits MDF.
>>
>>Lastly. A ton of dudes
>>HAVE tried. We have
>>been to the RACS.
>>Spoken out. Made calls,
>>written letters. Donated time,
>>money.
>>
>>You won't get converts attacking them,
>>or any others, thus my
>>last line.
>>
>>Text is bad because emotion is
>>often misconstrued.
>>
>>
>>
>>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>>PUBLIC LAND.
>
>We didn't cut out 150,000 connections.
>They just aren't getting a
>tag every year. Less tag
>sales isn't less revenue to
>the DWR. License sales revenue
>goes into the Utah general
>fund. Your logic is flawed.
>


No. The day we started the limit you lost most of the folks who looked at a deer tag as a camping permit. The less serious folks just quit. I've got uncles who did, now cousins who don't hunt at all.

There is a reason why we no longer get Friday off from school. Why very few Buisnesses have deer widow sales.

There is a reason why Sim Gill doesn't vigorously go after the McCleans. We aren't a big enough group to force it. There are more skiers than hunters, he's a politician.

As for revenue, of course the loss of 150,000 tags hurt. So does the loss of all those Pittman Robinson funds those lost hunters no longer brought to the table. Those are the 2 funders for DWR.

You simply need to look at the average age of hunters, and overall numbers to see we cannot afford to lose any more.
We have to get more dudes. More kids. More women. And if that means we continue the where we are at, that's far better than where we will be shutting out more dudes in pursuit of inches.

That's my belief





From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-18 AT 05:51PM (MST)[p]>>Slam.
>>
>>I want to backtrack off my
>>last post. I read
>>it again and I don't
>>want it misinterpreted.
>>
>>Its not productive to denigrate the
>>public. I like your
>>ideas on weapon tech.
>>Others won't. I watched
>>what tag cuts brought, a
>>complete loss of political clout.
>>We complain about the loss
>>of connection between the public
>>and hunters, yet WE cut
>>out 150,000 of those connections.
>> We ##### about funding,
>>but got rid of tag
>>buyers.
>>
>>So don't take it personal when
>>folks like myself point out
>>that we have been down
>>some of these roads, which
>>haven't worked.
>>
>>MDF is tied to $FW.
>>It does so willingly.
>>In doing so it gets
>>the mistrust $FW earned.
>>The public at large is
>>very suspicious of $FW, so
>>its not unreasonable that some
>>suspicion hits MDF.
>>
>>Lastly. A ton of dudes
>>HAVE tried. We have
>>been to the RACS.
>>Spoken out. Made calls,
>>written letters. Donated time,
>>money.
>>
>>You won't get converts attacking them,
>>or any others, thus my
>>last line.
>>
>>Text is bad because emotion is
>>often misconstrued.
>>
>>
>>
>>From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN,
>>PUBLIC LAND.
>
>We didn't cut out 150,000 connections.
>They just aren't getting a
>tag every year. Less tag
>sales isn't less revenue to
>the DWR. License sales revenue
>goes into the Utah general
>fund. Your logic is flawed.
>

Your wrong on how the dwr is funded.


From the party of HUNTIN, FISHIN, PUBLIC LAND.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-18 AT 06:49PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Nov-07-18 AT 05:56?PM (MST)

Please explain how I have attacked anyone. I'm just stating my personal experiences and opinion. You don't know me and I don't know you. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion. If you read through all the posts, like you say I should, tag cuts are mentioned several times. Maybe we should get into a pissin match about who has done more for wildlife in this state. Again, you have no idea of the hours I've put in and I don't of you. I have opinions about how to get the deer herd back and cutting tags is not one of them. In fact, not 1 single public tag should be cut on any unit ever again. These feelings are based on what I've seen over all these years. Show me where tag cuts have benefited the deer as well as the hunters of this state? Name one?Also mentioned was closing it down. Really? That mentality along with cutting the public?s tags, again in my opinion, gets the high dollar guides frothing from the mouth.
 
30,
Simple math and sprinkle of actual conservation says we ought to cut tags.

350,000 deer in the state of Utah. At an average of 20 buck per 100 does that puts us at 70,000 buck deer. We currently issue 90,0000 tags. That is 20,000 more tags than we have bucks. Mix in the fact that we all agree that technology is improving the success rates of those 90,000 hunters. To me it looks like we are being completely irresponsible as hunters. We are not even figuring in things that hunters can not control, weather, road kill, predation. Tags are the only thing that we have actual and complete control of. To not have that be one of the first options it again completely irresponsible. Yeah it sucks to not have a tag every year but loosing the resource in end is worse.

Lee,
We are all aware that you are in the camp of continual "takers" and in-spite of that some will work hard to preserve and strengthen the resource you are teaching your grandchildren to love. You see the ones making tough decisions to protect and strengthen our deer herds will continue to share with the "takers" just like they have always done.
 
EFA....
No one has singled you out personally as an individual.

It is common knowledge that the majority of us "sportsmen" (as a group) are not involved in anything that benefits or gives BACK to our wildlife, we just want to hunt and take what is owed to us as a right. We are not required or obligated in anyway to give anything back, it is a choice and a choice that I and many others choose to do because we want to do "Something".
If you choose not to be a part of any group or organization that gives back, that is your choice.
Nowhere did I or anyone else say that you are any less entitled than those of us who do.
 
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