Landowner Voucher program

Chacoblue777 · Nov 18, 2016

Hi all!

Hope everyone is having a great season. I purchased a third season LO voucher this year. It was a new unit for me, and enjoy d getting to see, and learn new country. We filled one of two tags, -!: it was a struggle to do that, as hunting conditions were tough this year due to hot, dry weather, slow migration, lots of hunting pressure, and a slow rut. Was great to be out hunting though.

I was hoping to hear some thoughts and opinions from other forum members regarding the LO program. The LO voucher I purchased was from a large, very large piece of huntable property. In fact they own a whole side of a huge mountain range, and the property receives a few dozen vouchers based on the big piece of property.
Having purchased multiple vouchers in the past, I assumed that the voucher would allow me to hunt the property. After a couple days of hunting public, I contacted the property manager to ask for directions to the property and asking if I could hunt in there. I was informed that he cannot allow his "voucher guys" to hunt the property as he has high paying clients he guides on the property each year, and it wouldn't be fair to them if the "voucher guys" were in there hunting. He did say that I could access and hunt a small chunk of property that was basically landlocked by public, and wasn't very good hunting. This piece of property MAY have been 50 acres. The other property was thousands and thousands of acres.

I chose not to get into a debate with the property manager, as I wanted to enjoy my hunt and spend my time finding bucks while I could. I ended up focusing and hunting public ground.

If the LO program rules state that the owner only needs to allow minimal minimal access to a few acres, and can block the better and bigger parts of the property, then I am fine with the response I received. However, if a landowner voucher is meant to entitle a hunter to access the entire property, then I feel I was wronged a bit.

It seems to me that if someone had enough property to qualify for 25-30 landowner vouchers, then the program is meant to allow hunting on that much property. If an owner is only going to allow hunting on minimal acreage of land, then the landowner should only qualify for the number of vouchers based on the amount of land he is going to allow those "voucher guys" to hunt. Receiveing large quantities of vouhers based on huge land ownership and then pushing them all to public seems to tip the balance in my opinion and I am guessing is not how the program was intended to work.

Just curious about your thoughts and if anyone knows the details regarding the CO landowner voucher program and rules.

Kind regards

muleymaddness · Nov 18, 2016

LAST EDITED ON Nov-18-16 AT 09:42AM (MST)[p]I encountered a similar scenario to yours. My landowner said "my private property isn't any good to hunt, you wouldn't want to hunt here". He was very brief with it and ended the discussion quick. My thoughts were "that doesn't matter". I'm curious to hear the official rule here because I think if you sell a voucher on the market, you should be required to grant access. I understand some rules, stay on the roads, don't tear up the roads, respect the property and would even be ok if they said no camping allowed, etc. But not "no, no access". Like you, I didn't push the issue and was happy to have the tag.

ColoradoOak · Nov 18, 2016

LAST EDITED ON Nov-18-16 AT 09:45AM (MST)[p]The landowner is required to provide access to all of the deeded land they used to qualify for the voucher. That may not be all of the property that they own, but is a minimum of 160 acres. This acreage is enrolled when the landowner applies for the voucher.

Stories like yours are all too common, and just one of numerous problems with the voucher program. The only way we will make progress is for each hunter who has an experience like yours report the issue to CPW. If you were in the NW region, I would suggest you go straight to the top and contact the NW regional manager, Ron Velarde, in Grand Junction. Ron has pledged to deal with these issues in a timely manner and has done so for friends of mine several times.

You took the time to make the post here...please take the time to report the issue to someone who can actually do something about it.

Edit: Chaco, just saw from your other post that you were probably in the SW region. That would be Patt Dorsey in Durango. All of the regional managers are at the PWC meeting in Lamar today, however.

El Gringo · Nov 18, 2016

I get both sides of this argument (Landowner and Hunter), however not allowing access to the property that the tag was issued for (a big part of the $$ Value of the voucher) is definitely abuse of the system, and unfortunately happens all the time. Anyone who experiences this should absolutely report it. Landowners should not reap the financial benefit of selling the vouchers, without upholding their part of the deal.

elks96 · Nov 18, 2016

As mentioned they were in direct violation of the law! Report it immediately! There are many people who do not like the voucher system! By law they must provide you with access to the property for which the voucher was offered! As pointed out it would have to at least 160 acres.

It is wrong that they did not allow you access! It is a violation of the law! The only way we can hope to stop this abuse is to make sure they are reported! Also why not share the name ranch, or outfit you worked with. This might help someone else from getting screwed out of the same sort of deal!

tailchasers · Nov 18, 2016

Being tolerant and nonconfrontational leads to this sort of abuse of the system while encouraging LO's to continue limiting access as defined by statue. I encourage you to report this matter and not be tolerant while confronting this landowners abuse of the system. Good luck.

"Courage is being scared to death but
saddling up anyway."

brutus54 · Nov 18, 2016

The transfer of a voucher by a landowner or designated land manager must include permission to access and hunt all of the land that is registered for which the voucher was awarded, and for the entire season for which the voucher was awarded; without discrimination among hunters entering the land or contain restrictions other than manner of access (i.e. foot, horseback, vehicular) reasonably necessary to prevent damage to land; If you have any questions, or need clarification, please contact: CPW - Limited License Section - Erik Slater 303.291.7380

This is straight out of the guide book call Erik Slater. He is in charge of the Voucher program for the whole state of Colorado. He Will be very concerned about what your talking about.

goforbroke · Nov 18, 2016

Please report it!! And to get more tags than 1 it is all enrolled so you should have had access to it all!!!

Pcjr21 · Nov 20, 2016

Thank you for posting this question I had no idea that was the rule and I can't tell you how many people I know experienced the exact same situation.

lostinOregon · Nov 20, 2016

Often landowners property's are broken into parcels/applications for the program. What you can not tell by looking at the voucher is what parcel of land is tied to the voucher. It can be one ranch of 3500 acres but 3 separate applications. Having a voucher does entitle you to hunt the property. An easy fix would be for the voucher to identify the property that it was obtained and an additional signature line by the landowners that allows access to the described property. The landowners signature is required to legally transfer the voucher.

Rich

ColoradoOak · Nov 20, 2016

Rich, I agree 100%. They need to provide a map with each voucher, just like they do for those who draw a RFW license. Of course the landowner could separate the map from the voucher before selling. Maybe they could add another license panel when a voucher is redeemed and the license is printed, which says something like, "This license entitles the licensee to hunt private lands enrolled in the landowner preference program. Please see http://cpw.state.co.us/thingstodo/Pages/LandownerPreference.aspx for more information."

When changes to the landowner preference program were adopted a couple of years ago, including the increase in landowner allocation, one of the suggestions of the landowner preference committee was to conduct detailed surveys at the end of the year of hunters who redeemed vouchers. To my knowledge this is not occurring. This would give CPW a better idea of what is happening, and identify abuses to the system.

Another problem is that many hunters don't want to rock the boat and lose access to vouchers by insisting on access to private lands. They are enabling the abuses of the system to continue.

Chacoblue777 · Nov 20, 2016

Thank you all for your comments, thoughts, and suggestions regarding the LO voucher program, and specifically my encounter with an owner who denied access. Some great suggestions and support were offered. Thank you.

I did call Erik Slater and left a message. I am awaiting his call back, and will follow up with him. ColoradoOak hit the nail on the head in his last post about hunters not wanting to rock the boat and burn bridges with their landowner contacts. I will admit that part of me would rather not lose my connection to a landowner in these units, as I did see potential as I finally started to learn the unit more. Having said that, it seems the best way to support the landowner voucher program is to help encourage that it runs as designed and per the rules assigned to it. I like the option of being able to buy a landowner voucher in Colorado and would like to see the program continue.

Rich, I agree with your suggestion about clarifying and mapping areas that are assigned to vouchers better. That would help both hunter and landowner alike.

Thanks again for commenting and sharing your thoughts.

Kind regards

txhunter58 · Nov 20, 2016

Doubt I will ever purchase one but if I do and encounter denial I would be on the doorstep of the CPW that day and tell them I will be hunting the property that I have legal access to and ask if they want to accompany me to the property or just call the landowner while I wait.

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

tailchasers · Nov 20, 2016

Wanna know how great the Colorado LO program is? Just ask a Conservation Officer working the field.

Improvements have been made to the LO sysyem but as always with concessions at the expense of the regular sportsperson. Might be time to make a little noise again.

"Courage is being scared to death but
saddling up anyway."

lostinOregon · Nov 20, 2016

>Doubt I will ever purchase one
>but if I do and
>encounter denial I would be
>on the doorstep of the
>CPW that day and tell
>them I will be hunting
>the property that I have
>legal access to and ask
>if they want to accompany
>me to the property or
>just call the landowner while
>I wait.
>
>venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore
>I am)

Problem is you can't tell what land is associated with the voucher. As I said the land can and most are divided up into applications by acres. You have a voucher from Joe smith and go hunt his property and find out that wasn't the property associated with that voucher. It was a smaller section of property across the unit. When you get a landowner tag in NV they send you a map for the property that is attached to the application.

Rich

tx_packmule · Nov 22, 2016

Easiest fix would be to just make the voucher document out to the tax parcel ID.

Grasshopper · Nov 23, 2016

LAST EDITED ON Nov-23-16 AT 11:29AM (MST)[p]The vouchers themselves clearly state you can't be denied access. It also list at least the section range and township of the land, and maybe more specific. A section is 640 acres, you need 160 to get in the program. You can find the land the voucher came from if you know how to read maps.

If it was me, I'd make a copy of the voucher before you redeem it and carry it on your body at all times as your written landowner permission slip.

That said, if the gate is locked you can still have an issue to contend with.

brutus54 · Nov 30, 2016

LAST EDITED ON Nov-30-16 AT 10:46AM (MST)[p]Did you ever here back from Eric Slater? If so did he help you?

Chacoblue777 · Dec 5, 2016

Yes, I did hear back from Erik Slater and am working through the issue with he and the property manager. It appears he property manager thinks that the program only requires him to allow some access to any part of the property, at his discretion. I'm hoping that Erik and his team will help educate the property manager and help improve the program, avoiding similar incidents or confusion in the future.

Thanks for the follow-up.

khunter · Dec 14, 2016

>Being tolerant and nonconfrontational leads to
>this sort of abuse of
>the system while encouraging LO's
>to continue limiting access as
>defined by statue. I encourage
>you to report this matter
>and not be tolerant while
>confronting this landowners abuse of
>the system. Good luck.
>
>"Courage is being scared to death
>but
>saddling up anyway."

agree 100%.

the two deer vouchers I have bought in recent years each came with lying sack of ?%#$ landowners and i was intolerant and confrontational and involved CPW both times. No regrets and each landowner was put on notice, supposedly. I hunted all the land and put up with zero BS. it was aggravating but I will be damned if these guys are gonna commit such fraud on my watch and on my dime. Only way to fix the system is to complain loudly, demand an honest transaction and testify during public comment at CPW hearings about the lies and fraudulent treatment you had to put up with, which I also did. Voucher system is HORRIBLE and designed to facilitate the very fraud that is commonplace. That is what happens when the thieves write the rules. duh.

>>====Hostess Donettes Pro Staff=====>

Elkduds · Dec 15, 2016

LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-16 AT 07:55AM (MST)[p]At the minimum you are entitled to a full refund from LO. In court you could probably get that plus $ damages for time and opportunity you lost, up to 3x the amount of monetary loss. And LO would have to pay your legal costs. That would be an eye opener for the LO, even if you never collected (very hard to collect on small claims court judgments in my limited experience).

COHunter · Dec 16, 2016

Just making vouchers valid only on private property like they should be would solve a lot of problems

Pcjr21 · Dec 16, 2016

>Just making vouchers valid only on
>private property like they should
>be would solve a lot
>of problems

I agree completely

nripepi · Dec 16, 2016

I tend to agree with you and I think the landowner program should be revamped (I couldn't believe they got the increase in tags recently)

The problem with a blanket statement that they should only be good on private land is what if the animals live on both public and private. What if they spend the nights on private eating and then move onto public during the day? What if they migrate from public to private and it is dependent on snow and the seasons are set (some years the animals are on private and some years they are on public).

COHunter · Dec 17, 2016

>I tend to agree with you
>and I think the landowner
>program should be revamped (I
>couldn't believe they got the
>increase in tags recently)
>
>The problem with a blanket statement
>that they should only be
>good on private land is
>what if the animals live
>on both public and private.
>What if they spend the
>nights on private eating and
>then move onto public during
>the day? What if
>they migrate from public to
>private and it is dependent
>on snow and the seasons
>are set (some years the
>animals are on private and
>some years they are on
>public).

So...what if? Its a landowner program. Landowners can apply in the regular draw too if they want to hunt public land.

brutus54 · Dec 17, 2016

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-16 AT 11:30AM (MST)[p]>
>So...what if? Its a landowner program.
>Landowners can apply in the
>regular draw too if they
>want to hunt public land.
>

Landowners can and do apply in the regular draw like everybody else. And their land puts in for the landowner program under their name but they can only use one tag a year like everybody else. If that's what your asking. Plus in both draws they can put in for public or private land like everybody else. What ever is available in their unit.

nripepi · Dec 17, 2016

The idea is the landowner gets the the tag in exchange for land damage caused by the animals. That damage may occur outside the season or it might be variable where sometimes it is outside and sometimes within.

I am not a big fan of these tags, but either the landowner should be able to hunt the whole unit or the tag dates need to be moved depending on when the animals migrate.

brutus54 · Dec 17, 2016

LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-16 AT 05:16PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-16 AT 04:26?PM (MST)

>The idea is the landowner gets
>the the tag in exchange
>for land damage caused by
>the animals. That damage may
>occur outside the season or
>it might be variable where
>sometimes it is outside and
>sometimes within.
>
>I am not a big fan
>of these tags, but either
>the landowner should be able
>to hunt the whole unit
>or the tag dates need
>to be moved depending on
>when the animals migrate.

It sounds like you are talking about Depredation tags not landowner vouchers. This is off of the CPW web site to why the program was started.

Overview:

The Landowner Preference Program (LPP) was created to give landowners a preference for hunting licenses to encourage private landowners to provide habitat that increases wildlife populations for the benefit of all hunters, discourage the harboring of game animals on private lands during public hunting seasons, and relieve hunting pressure on public lands by increasing game hunting on private lands.

Here is the link to more info if needed.

http://cpw.state.co.us/thingstodo/Pages/LandownerPreference.aspx

tx_packmule · Dec 21, 2016

Making vouchers available to Winter range private in Jan/Feb really would cause a ****storm on here.

crcountry · Jan 29, 2017

I'd buy the tag, and use my GPS/landowner chip without a single conversation uttered. Come find me mr landowner.
Crcountry

gopher1 · Feb 4, 2017

When I used a voucher, the biggest problem is knowing, or finding the property the land owner owns. What I ran into some of the land is under different names or ranch names but is still the same owner." the best thing I came up with to try to help the situation , was my gps with Colorado land owner chip, is their any better source?

DM770 · Feb 4, 2017

Friend of mine purchased a voucher a couple years ago and the landowner had him sign a contract that said he had to pay a deposit at which time he got the voucher and then a large sum when he showed up to his property to hunt. Basically saying one price for the voucher and another to access his land. Have others seen this happen?