is OTC elk sustainable?

First off I am a NR that likes to come to Colorado for OTC Archery elk on the years I do not draw in my home state. Forgive me since I do not at the moment recall if it is Parks and wildlife or division of game and fish. But once I received a call from your department inquiring on my hunt and if I harvested anything. The next time I hunted in Colorado I received no phone call and so I called the department to give my harvest report. To my surprise they said "don't worry about it, we have a mathematical formula we use to figure out how many animals were harvested." Blown away to say the least.
So no mandatory harvest reporting and about 2/3 of the state is OTC for elk hunting. I keep hearing more and more residents talking about how units like 81 or 78 used to have elk and now they don't. I know some of that talk is to discourage NR from coming, but I know there is some truth to those statements. Has there been any talk at all from the Department in regards to shutting down OTC hunts or making harvest reports mandatory?

LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-19 AT 01:10PM (MST)[p]CPW relies heavily on models. That's how they justify more office staff in Denver. They forgot about the real biologist they have on staff at the field offices and seem to negate their boots on the ground observations and hunter interactions because the model says otherwise. SMH all the time with the Metro Desk Wildlife Biologist touting their model.

BTW the state is talking about possibly limiting some OTC archery units.

"Courage is being scared to death but
saddling up anyway."

No.



#livelikezac

LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-19 AT 02:45PM (MST)[p]Not for long I predict, unless there are caps and some restrictions on which units a tag is good for. At least with the recent droughts, development, predator (claims), non-hunting recreation, private land or access issues - there are not enough elk and not enough acres to accommodate everyone anymore with unlimited OTC in many areas. Fix all those issues simultaneously and maybe the herds will skyrocket and OTC will reign supreme... not holding my breath.

And although I believe in the power of statistics (to a point) it is strange to me that some states rely on a "model" for migratory species like elk and mule deer when other states (including my own) require the check-in of each and every deer taken. No model. No guesswork. Small error. We used to have to check every deer in person at a station but a few years back it went to phone/web check. Convenient and it takes about 60 seconds on the phone or web to check in and then they will have all the particulars. In fact, during the bear season (which still get checked in at a station), this allows F&W to update the actual harvest numbers by county/unit online DAILY.

Definitely sustainable if CPW becomes free to charge license fees so high that fewer hunters will buy them.

I support limiting OTC licenses.

Hasbean

NO! OTC is not sustainable.

I'm growing tired of it. I think our elk hunting could be absolutely incredible if we managed more units for quality versus tag sales and revenue. That being said I believe our PP system is absolute garbage. The demand for mule deer has driven everything sky high and our handful of quality managed elk units have point creeps that are absolutely retarded.

Coloradoboy

All I hear is hunting is a dying sport over and over. Id that's the case then I guess otc is sustainable. I think we all know that isn't the case.

It would be nice to see them manage a 1/2 doz or so more units for better age class and higher bull to cow ratio. Taking 25+ years to draw a tag is insane. As far as OTC tags, Colorado has a ton of elk and I believe some units could support that pressure just because of their vastness, at least during some seasons. Managing big game herds with charts and graphs is a joke, Utah does the same thing, I believe their numbers are way off in most units. Makes no sense with the technology we have not to just have a mandatory survey. Makes you wonder if the state or wildlife dept doesn't want the public to know the truth, if we did it would probably effect tag sales and revenue $$.

I disagree with virtually everyone on this thread for a variety of reasons.

If your question was strictly to archery, then yes there is absolutely nothing wrong with OTC either sex tags. Despite increases in the number of archery hunters the harvest tends to stay relatively the same. As for the fact that archery is either sex, archery hunters in general take so few cow elk in the vast majority of units that they are not a statically significant source of mortality. For example when you look at the data from the areas that go from Vail, To Eagle, To Aspen To Glenwood, archery hunters took less than 100 cow elk a year.

The bigger question is hunting sustainable? We all know that hunter numbers are dropping, one of the largest factors affecting this is ease to draw and access to tags. I would argue that continuing limiting licenses will in fact make hunting unsustainable simply because we will not have the support we need to avoid becoming California.

As a result I hope that Colorado Elk remains about opportunity. Yes we could grow monster bulls, but who really cares if you only get hunt 1 time every 5 years. How can we recruit youth if they go through middle school and high school only getting 1 tag?

As for reporting, I agree random reporting is horrible. Models are pretty decent, but they could be better. I would argue that mandatory reporting be a requirement to enter the draw or purchase a tag for the following year. I would prefer 100% reporting. A lot better than 30% or what ever they get now.

elks96 I like your response. Look what the Deer draws have become. Now I do like having some units setup as trophy areas that up the odds of finding that trophy class animal. Most hunters that I talk to are extremely excited to shoot a 300 class bull. I only hope that hunting,(the experiences),are the main factor and not the size. As far as mandatory reporting goes I,m all for it. The CPW would gather way better intel than using a model.

I'm not a proponent for making the entire state draw I enjoy hunting elk every year as much as the next guy. I just lthink we need to direct a portion of units towards quality over opportunity management practices. Colorado has the sheer numbers of elk and GMU?s that creating 5 to 10 more quality managed units isn't going to affect the OTC game what so ever.

Coloradoboy

I also like elk 96 response a lot as well. And I agree about the opportunity part. I have no issue with paying whatever prices to get my son out hunting every year once he is old enough to hunt. I look forward to it!
So I have hunted OTC in CO a few times when I didn't draw a tag here in N.M. I have done some rifle and archery, some years I saw nothing. Does that mean elk numbers are down? Nope, the elk just weren't where i wanted them to be.
It's just that in my state you cannot apply until you've done your harvest reports. So when I see in the big game statistics for Colorado that they estimate 1000 people hunted OTC archery in X unit and then they are guessing on what was harvested just seems crazy.
Thanks for sharing all your thoughts guys. I enjoyed seeing what you guys had to say.

With CP&W money woes, I doubt there will be any more elk units added to limited anytime soon. That would mean less money in their pockets. They already have 30,000 less non residents lost to price increases

I am not sure you can only add 8-10 units and not have them zoom up in points too. I wish they would limit all units and manage for increase success ( not trophy) in most units. Do I want to hunt every year? Absolutely. But if i was able to hunt every other year with less hunters in the woods and have increased opportunity to harvest I would be ok with that

I am not holding my breath

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

Of course you like elks96 response, we're the catch all. If you dont draw any where else you can always go to Colorado. The part that all stick flippers like to ignore is that the pressure they put on, chases plenty of elk to private property. It isn't their harvest that's an issue, it's their pressure. They all think their bows are quiet so they dont move elk. SMFH


#livelikezac

And what money woes does CP&W face when they make twice what any two western states make annually?


#livelikezac

DW, let me try to explain it to you. It makes no difference what other western states make. Each state has its operating costs, CO's is more. As for your comment about dispersing game I'm sure in some areas archers do move game to private but in most of the state I doubt it. There was a study started years ago in the White River areas 33,24,25? That directly addressed this. I never heard what the outcome was. Maybe it is still being studied. Any one have info?

LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-19 AT 08:42AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-19 AT 08:36?AM (MST)

Colo going to all draw for muledeer is a fantastic example of what could happen if elk went to all draw. The quality of bucks and B&C listings dramatically increased in scattered units across Colo after the switch-over. Currently Colo is considered the B&C mecca of the Western US!

The nice thing about it is muledeer tags are generally fairly easy to draw even with the all limited draw tags. Obviously it takes high pref pts to draw a few, scattered premier units but there are a long list of units that can draw every year....many that take only 0 to 2 pref pts to draw. Pretty much every year there are left over deer tags available. It's possible to hunt Colo deer every year even with all limited tags! I would have no problem saying the CPW can properly manage Colo's muledeer and deer hunter numbers....the Colo limited deer draw system is SUSTAINABLE!

Just because Colo converts to all draw elk doesn't mean the CPW needs to restrict and cut tags. It's also a misconception that going all limited for elk will take years and years to draw tags! The CPW would have the option to offer the same number of tags that currently are sold. They also could increase or decrease elk tags in response to elk populations and hunting pressure (can you say SUSTAINABILITY!).

The nice thing about going to all draw is the CPW will FINALLY be able to manage elk and hunter numbers! Heck yes to SUSTAINABILITY!!!! How can the CPW manage over crowding, elk harvest, the elk population in current OTC units...it's impossible....NOT SUSTAINABLE!!!!

Another positive to switching to all draw elk is that anyone that draws a first choice tag will burn pref pts. Heck yes to SUSTAINABILITY! Hunters will burn elk pts rather than hunting OTC units every year and accumulating pts! Yes, those that do this will moan and groan....however, those same guys moan and groan about not drawing limited elk tags! There is no doubt that switching to all draw will help point creep! Colo currently only offers a handful of limited elk units and tags within these units that burn pts! How many limited elk tags are issued in Colo vs number of new applicants that start applying every year? SUSTAINABLE....heck no with OTC!

RE: Economic brilliance.

"DW, let me try to explain it to you. It makes no difference what other western states make. Each state has its operating costs, CO's is more."

Well thanx for explaining that to me stalker.


#livelikezac

RE: Economic brilliance.


My current situation precludes me from caring about your opinion but go ahead and give voice to it anyway...

Apparently DW stalker has figured out that our gov't can piss away $ better and more recklessly than any other state has figured out how to do so.

The good news is these idiots learn from each other on how to steal more from the public. We have hope that others will emulate us in raising spending, thereby raising the bar for all and forcing our DOW to up their game, maybe TWO stoned out boat inspectors at each ramp on a tuesday am...

My favorite this year is WY 2.5% card charge (they stole that one from KS "convenience fee")

As long as there is one elk to be counted 1000x over the game will continue. When you control the count everything else is academic.

These guys have figured out that every equation has two sides that can both be adjusted and every "adjustment" adds to there bottom line.

Not enough bulls??? Whack more cows! Now we have too many bulls what to do what to do?? suggestions anyone? Never have to worry about downward spiral of numbers cause they are the ones counting. It is an amazing racket.

RE: Economic brilliance.

I looked up the meaning of sustainable and it is:

Sustainability is the process of maintaining change in a balanced fashion, in which the exploitation of resources, the direction of investments, the orientation of technological development and institutional change are all in harmony and enhance both current and future potential to meet human needs and aspirations.

The problem with OTC tags it's not sustainable! There is no way for the CPW to manage cow, bull numbers, ratios, overall hunting pressure, winter range capacity, private vs public land pressure, quality experience, range condition....the list goes on and on....if elk tags are unlimited.

LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-19 AT 02:27PM (MST)[p]>Of course you like elks96 response,
>we're the catch all. If
>you dont draw any where
>else you can always go
>to Colorado. The part that
>all stick flippers like to
>ignore is that the pressure
>they put on, chases
>plenty of elk to private
>property. It isn't their harvest
>that's an issue, it's their
>pressure. They all think their
>bows are quiet so they
>dont move elk. SMFH
>
>
>#livelikezac

Before you SYFH to the point it falls off let me say this. I've only hunted elk in your state twice, neither time did I see a lot of hunters, in fact I only encountered a couple other NR hunters. Certainly not enough pressure to push the elk out. I scouted in August and if all the people camping and tearing through the woods in UTVs didn't drive the elk out then myself and the handful of hunters I encountered sure didn't. And of course some of us like to take advantage of being able to hunt versus not going on a hunt. Fortunately I usually do draw an elk tag in my state but If I don't draw I'm not gonna just not go hunting because a few Colorado residents resent me coming to their state. If I come to your state I pay NR prices and I spend money in your grocery stores, restaurants, hotels etc. I don't feel like I am raping your state

>LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-19
>AT 02:27?PM (MST)
>
>>Of course you like elks96 response,
>>we're the catch all. If
>>you dont draw any where
>>else you can always go
>>to Colorado. The part that
>>all stick flippers like to
>>ignore is that the pressure
>>they put on, chases
>>plenty of elk to private
>>property. It isn't their harvest
>>that's an issue, it's their
>>pressure. They all think their
>>bows are quiet so they
>>dont move elk. SMFH
>>
>>
>>#livelikezac
>
>Before you SYFH to the point
>it falls off let me
>say this. I've only hunted
>elk in your state twice,
>neither time did I see
>a lot of hunters, in
>fact I only encountered a
>couple other NR hunters. Certainly
>not enough pressure to push
>the elk out. I scouted
>in August and if all
>the people camping and tearing
>through the woods in UTVs
>didn't drive the elk out
>then myself and the handful
>of hunters I encountered sure
>didn't. And of course
>some of us like to
>take advantage of being able
>to hunt versus not going
>on a hunt. Fortunately I
>usually do draw an elk
>tag in my state but
>If I don't draw I'm
>not gonna just not go
>hunting because a few Colorado
>residents resent me coming to
>their state. If I come
>to your state I pay
>NR prices and I spend
>money in your grocery stores,
>restaurants, hotels etc. I don't
>feel like I am raping
>your state

82nd I got a pretty fair memory still and if my memory is correct you asked us witch half of the archery season to hunt prior to one of your Colorado hunts. Several of us told you to hunt the second half, you chose the first figuring there would be more crowding the second half. You said the elk weren't where you found them in on an early August scouting trip and you didnt see an elk on your hunt. Think all them recreators you speak of moved em? Do you think all the crowding you feared from OTC stick flippers and muzzy hunters in the second half might move em as well? The fact you saw little pressure in an area that didnt hold elk, but was recreated hard in August when it did, should tell you somethin, but you strike me as hard headed. OTC archery and rifle, be it res or nonres, is not sustainable. At some point there is too much pressure on a limited resource and the affect is either over harvest or too much pressure pushing them off public ground. Neither are beneficial and it's already happening in some areas. I'm also grateful you held off on your biannual does the moon affect the season you hunt thread last fall. Yep, my memory is still pretty fair. Carry on.


#livelikezac

LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-19 AT 11:42PM (MST)[p]>>LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-19
>>AT 02:27?PM (MST)
>>
>>>Of course you like elks96 response,
>>>we're the catch all. If
>>>you dont draw any where
>>>else you can always go
>>>to Colorado. The part that
>>>all stick flippers like to
>>>ignore is that the pressure
>>>they put on, chases
>>>plenty of elk to private
>>>property. It isn't their harvest
>>>that's an issue, it's their
>>>pressure. They all think their
>>>bows are quiet so they
>>>dont move elk. SMFH
>>>
>>>
>>>#livelikezac
>>
>>Before you SYFH to the point
>>it falls off let me
>>say this. I've only hunted
>>elk in your state twice,
>>neither time did I see
>>a lot of hunters, in
>>fact I only encountered a
>>couple other NR hunters. Certainly
>>not enough pressure to push
>>the elk out. I scouted
>>in August and if all
>>the people camping and tearing
>>through the woods in UTVs
>>didn't drive the elk out
>>then myself and the handful
>>of hunters I encountered sure
>>didn't. And of course
>>some of us like to
>>take advantage of being able
>>to hunt versus not going
>>on a hunt. Fortunately I
>>usually do draw an elk
>>tag in my state but
>>If I don't draw I'm
>>not gonna just not go
>>hunting because a few Colorado
>>residents resent me coming to
>>their state. If I come
>>to your state I pay
>>NR prices and I spend
>>money in your grocery stores,
>>restaurants, hotels etc. I don't
>>feel like I am raping
>>your state
>
>82nd I got a pretty fair
>memory still and if my
>memory is correct you asked
>us witch half of the
>archery season to hunt prior
>to one of your Colorado
>hunts. Several of us told
>you to hunt the second
>half, you chose the first
>figuring there would be more
>crowding the second half. You
>said the elk weren't where
>you found them in on
>an early August scouting trip
>and you didnt see an
>elk on your hunt. Think
>all them recreators you speak
>of moved em? Do you
>think all the crowding you
>feared from OTC stick flippers
>and muzzy hunters in the
>second half might move em
>as well? The fact you
>saw little pressure in an
>area that didnt hold elk,
>but was recreated hard in
>August when it did, should
>tell you somethin, but you
>strike me as hard headed.
>OTC archery and rifle,
>be it res or nonres,
>is not sustainable. At some
>point there is too much
>pressure on a limited resource
>and the affect is either
>over harvest or too much
>pressure pushing them off public
>ground. Neither are beneficial and
>it's already happening in some
>areas. I'm also grateful you
>held off on your biannual
>does the moon affect the
>season you hunt thread last
>fall. Yep, my memory is
>still pretty fair. Carry on.
>
>
>
>#livelikezac

Hard headed as anyone else. You can't say your any different. ? yes yes the moon phase boggled me for years, heard a lot of different views but I think I learned a couple years ago that it makes noooo difference. I had a hunt during a full moon phase where I saw more elk than I'd ever seen till 1030 in morning. So that question is definitely way off my radar. But I'll PM you that question in July if don't draw in my home state ?.I do also recal somewhat about what I stated about my archery hunt. I do remember seeing elk in August but not in September. I don't think those elk being pushed to private land was an issue, there isn't much in that area. The big thing that restricts u in that unit is the topography, without an outfitter or your own horses you can only go so far. So certainly couldn't go deep enough to where they may have been. I hunted the first week of September and there weren't a ton of people. I take my lack of seeing elk as in they just moved out of the area and someone else in a different spot found em LOL.
BTW, I have yet to encounter anyone that said ?carry on? without a military background. What was your Branch, MOS, unit? I was Army 11B out of Bragg. ?

Navy AO VA-185 Nighthawks USS MIDWAY 87-93


#livelikezac

>Navy AO VA-185 Nighthawks USS MIDWAY
>87-93
>
>
>#livelikezac


Good deal man ?