az points

anybody want to sell their elk points? i need an individual with 13 or two with a combined total of 21. pm if interested. willing to pay good as i know their worth. thanks.

How can you use my points for your tag?

You do know it's not possible to "buy" someone's points in AZ right? You can put in with them but they are going to want to draw the same tag as you if they agree to do it.

It sounds like he is willing to pay someone to apply with him...

The problem with this scenario is that even if Billy gets an Arizona resident with a lot of points to apply with him, the application, by rule, is still handled by G&F as a NR application, and therefore subject to the 10% cap.

Don't see anyway this would work, and of course you can't "SELL" your bonus points.

Don Martin

Who says he needs a resident? I assume he is looking for a NR.

don please explain how this doesn't work, being the guide you are?

az resident applies with 2 points with a non-res with 13 points. averaged bt. the 2, they have an app with 8 points since az rounds up. the hunt he is looking to draw takes 8 points for a nr. they put in, since app is in max point pool, they draw. it's simple and has been going on for years. i know people that literally draw good tags every year with this method. on the other hand, i also know "game and fish whores" who just by pass the system every year and cheat their way into premium tags... year after year...

show me the rule that says you can't "sell" your points. people do this by the flocks every year. they either pay for a guided hunt for said individual, pay all hunt costs, etc....

infact i know hundreds of people that put in their aunts, uncles, grandmas, etc... just to point whore with them.. they might not have to compensate them in anyway but they do pay for their license every yr. and their bonus points.. in the end, they use them to draw premium tags year after year...

Billy speaks the truth. However I have no knowledge of the "game and fish whores" who get to by pass the system each year, but I wouldn't doubt it. The point averaging has been going on for years and it absolutely works. If you look at the draw results for certain units, you will see some of the same names year after year.

I actually had an Oregon guide call me a couple of years ago. He wanted me to apply with his client. In return he would get me access to private in the best blacktail hunt in the state.

I declined since I want my wife and son on that hunt when we do it.

I buy PPs in Wy for my wife and we have 8 elk PPs between us although I drew 2 years ago.

How does it work when a Res applies with a NR and they draw? Does G&F pull the tag out of the NR pool for the NR applicant,and the Res tag out of the general pool? Seems pretty complicated for them to figure out and get it done.

How do G&F whores get tags every year and who are they?

This kind of thread is what's gonna end up screwing over the kids who are lucky enough to have their parents or grandparents donate their tags to them...

If a resident and a non resident apply together, then the application is handled as a non-resident application. PERIOD!

Trying to "buy" their way into a PREMIUM tag won't work.

Now if they are seeking a Unit 10 late rifle tag, and like Billy used the example of a resident with 13 BP and a NR with 2 bonus points, yep that will work if it takes 8 points to get into the 20% pass pool. They do add them together and divide by two.

So if they had a combined 15 points, divided by two, that 7.5 so yes they would round up to 8.

How about the application point? You forgot that they add that on too.

So yes Billy, in your situation that would work for a less than desirable tag.

Even though there is a resident on the application, that application will be treated as a non-resident application as far as the 10% cap is concerned.

So big deal, if a resident with lots of points wanted to apply with a non-resident and share his points, go for it.

You can't get around that 10% cap for NR's rule, so I don't see what the big deal is.

If a resident with 18 elk points puts in with a non-resident who has 10 points, they will NOT draw a premium rifle tag though they COULD draw a Unit 10 archery tag, which isn't a bad tag.

Don Martin

Don't get sucked into the trolling.

Anonymous claims on the internet are BS unless there is evidence attached. Go look for yourself doesn't get it.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there.The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard

Which person are you calling a troll...

The OP that offered to pay money to leapfrog others in the drawing, the guy that clearly explained the risks to whoever would party app with him (possible rejection) or the dude asking details about how to make use of this unacceptable loophole?

As I said last year, there needs to be limits on how much benefit the lowest person on a group application can bonus up. Three points above the lowest applicant is plenty and would put the brakes on this crap. This thread is proof that this happens, get the list of successful applicants from Game and Fish and compare it to the previous year. That will be more proof.

I am a resident that hunts lower to mid tier units, the guys that party app with non-hunters every year to bonus up increases my wait time and it ticks me off. I also don't like tag brokers, and some are probably testing the waters on point brokering businesses and it will add unnecessary overhead and more barriers to entry for DIY hunters. The wildlife is held in the public trust, there isn't any room for middlemen or carnival games when the public owns the product.

Welcome to 2015, this issue isn't going away and certainly isn't a secret.

javihammer you're dead on. however, i don't care as many others are doing it. the system is as corrupt as any at the heart. terrible... don, what's a premium hunt. one that takes a lot of points... or one that you have as high of chance as any to take a big 360+ bull? you tell me... i know the system backwards and forwards. your explanations are mostly correct until you interject your opinion on value and rating premium!

As a non resident there is nothing but benefits from doing this in my opinion. I would do it in a heartbeat with no money just as long as he showed me where some good bulls are. Knowing where elk are is over half the battle and having someone that knows the area well is all I would need to put in with them. I just wish I had 13 points.

The only thing this thread proves is people like to stir the pot over an imaginary problem. No one accepted the offer and no one has shown proof of the same people drawing tags year after year.

A guy that wants to hunt a late rifle hunt can do it twice in the time it takes to participate in this fabricated conspiracy once.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard

Sagebrush it's not fabricated and I am sure Javi can show you some proof. I personally know guys who do this year in and year out. I will not name names, but some are very well known bow hunters.

Hi Sagebrush,

Unfortunately this is occurring and has been for quite a while. It's no secret, it's not illegal, nor do I personally think it is unethical. If I apply and pay for my dad's points for 14 years and then join him on an application where is the harm?

If you want to research this yourself for free consider the following approach. Call the AZGFD and ask for drawing reports for unit 13A archery deer in 2013 and 2014. You will see the same name in the bonus pass for both years. How does one get in the bonus pass that takes 8 points the year after they drew the same hunt? Like I said I don't have a problem with it at all, but that lucky(to draw) and very skilled hunter shot a 250+ buck in 2014.

Selling or buying onto an application is a personal choice. Happens every year for different consideration. Some do it for free to get on a TV show.

Don't take my word for it, do your research.

I have no problem with applicants using the strategy, especially father/son or other hunting partners. I'm sure a few applicants get tags in this manner a couple of times. This is no new phenomena and was put into the system for precisely this purpose, allowing people with different point totals to hunt together.

The "imaginary" problem is 100's of applicants drawing tags year after year by buying licenses and points for 15 people every year to force everyone else out. One tag out of 30 isn't rampant abuse IMO and keeping a father and son or hunting buddies from applying together to prevent it is BS.

Discussing it is a waste of time and energy, and bringing it up every year, even more so. If its such a big problem for you, jump on the bandwagon and start buying licenses and points for 15 people every year and you can hunt with the same 15 people every year and their point pimp guests. You would probably have a great camp after a few decades of weeding out the oblivious.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard

AZbuild, do you have those two draw reports in your possession?

The averaging thing has allowed many friends and family to be able to hunt together while having diff numbers of points. If someone wants to decrease their points by putting in with someone else then let them, they earned those points to do whatever they please with them. We don't need others telling people what they can and can't do with their points they earned over the years. more and more regulation. These points are the people's to do with however they please.

After researching the draw lists for Unit 13A for the past couple of years, I finally figured out who the "famous archer" was on the Unit 13A archery hunt last year that was referred to.

I was told today by some folks in the know, that there are sportsmen out there with LOTS of bonus points who are more than willing to let this very famous archer put in with them and split their bonus points in exchange for them getting to hunt with him. (A guided hunt with him is probably expensive)

Is that illegal? Not that I can see..Maybe you don't like it, but if those folks are willing to split their points, well whose business is it?

The last thing we need is the AZ G&F Dept. to become the bonus points police!

I'm buying my 12-year-old grandson in Oklahoma bonus points for almost every species and I'm not sure if he will ever come out to hunt again (he's been here twice on Youth javelina hunts).

Am I'm wrong for doing that?

Figure out something else to complain about guys. This isn't an issue, really..

Don Martin

Is jumping in front of other people that have been on sitting on the sidelines for 6-8 years ethical? Who knows, ethics is a minor issue when you look at some of the more practical problems with this.

Arizona is a state with a huge human population (top 10) and a relatively small population of deer, elk and antelope (much lower numbers than Utah, Colorado and New Mexico?states with much lower human populations). The ratio of hunting tags to hunters in this state is probably one of the lowest in the nation. On the other side we have great quality which only increases demand for tags. Changes to the application process like online applications, credit cards, bonus point only applications, $5 youth licenses, the 20% bonus pass, online hunter education and adult to youth transfer options have made the acquisition of points cheaper and the ability to transfer the benefit of those points to others easier. There is also no hunter education requirement to apply for a tag in Arizona. The application doesn't even require a signature anymore, all you need is a pulse, be at least 10 years of age, a computer and a few bucks to apply. Most app zombies probably have no idea they even applied, their Dad, husband or Grandfather did it for them behind the scenes.

The impact of this is significant. There are a lot more people being drawn that really have no interest in hunting, they are hunters on paper alone. Application zombies don't buy products that contribute to Federal Conservation funds like Pittman Robertson, they probably borrow their gear if they even show up for the hunt at all. Application zombies also displace real hunters from actually participating in the sport every year that would otherwise have contributed to such funds. The revenue positive short term impacts of the zombie license dollars to AZGFD is offset by the long term revenue negative impact of displacing real hunters from the sport which ultimately shrinks the pool of conservation dollars.

And as Don pointed out, the most difficult to draw antlered elk, muley and antelope hunts require too many points for the party apping technique to work. The people taking it in the shorts are guys like archery hunters and the guys applying for the late bull hunts. Those hunts can generally be had in the bonus pass with half the max points or less. Those hunts also happen to be the bread and butter units for the DIY crowd. Many people, even residents, will never hunt an antelope in Arizona. However there are some archery antelope hunts that are guaranteed to people that can convince a rifle hunter with a bunch of points to let them ride their archery lope party app. There are some guys hunting Arizona goats with archery equipment every year by doing this.

This loophole also puts hunters in a situation where they either have to join the crowd and play the game or live with others swiping their opportunity every year. Being forced to party app and dealing with the inevitable commercial point brokering that will follow will essentially impose a tax on the blue collar units where the bulk of hunters reside. Opportunity is already limited enough in this State that we don't need to deliberately live with things that shrink the population of hunters rather than expand them.

The bright side about this situation is that it can be easily corrected with a simple change to the group application bonus point formula. Simply cap the group average on a party application to no more than 2 or 3 points above the lowest point holder on the group application. Family and friends could still hunt together they would just need to make a comparable TIME investment in order to do so.

If we deliberately allow the public drawing to be compromised, desperate and frustrated hunters will open themselves up to commercial interests that angle for tiered pricing schemes, landowner tag programs and other junk that thins our ranks. Ask the guys in Utah what happens when people cannot see past their own short term personal interests and allow the creation of dozens of entitlement buckets that are formed to concentrate opportunity to the wealthy and well connected. The top of the pyramid gets smaller every year and their short sighted supporters realize they got used and every hunt of quality is once in a lifetime or out of their price range.

Ryan

So Don, can you take a look and determine the magnitude of the application zombie apocalypse? One guy drawing a tag two years in a row is not a problem. The others on here describing the problem as end of days big don't seem to be willing to share their top secret information.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard

This is stupid trying to tell people what to do with their points. A guy with 15 points puts in with a guy that has 4 to get a tag and a free guided hunt, and that's a problem? Its sad so many people want more and more regulation placed on them. Javi jammer learn to play the game so others don't have to be penalized because you didn't learn how to play, or find some new friends with more points than you do, but don't cry foul after waking up from hibernation just because you slept to long. Who cares if a guy draws 13a 5 times in a row and helped others who had a bunch of points have a good hunt with him for free, or any other scenario. A guy with x amount of points payed x amount of dollars to the state for a bunch of years to have the right to use his points however he chooses because he did it the fair way. This has nothing to do with ethics and everything to do with earned rights by putting in over many years and spending lots of money at the game and fish. Everything in life is a game and that game must be learned how to be played correctly and legally in order to get what one wants. I've hunted with a bunch of friends over the years that had less or more points than i did and without averaging i would have missed out on tons of memories with those people if we had point regulation in place. Nothing like the guy at the back of the line crying foul cause he got there late, and because he got there late, it's not fair.

The frustrating part of this discussion is that many people have waited for years and years to have just one opportunity at drawing a good tag. Doesn't seem fair or right that some people get to hunt almost every year. If G&F would make people that draw an elk or antelope tag not eligible the next year it would help spread out the opportunity. It would take a lot of applicants out of the draw pool to help get more people the chance to get drawn once in a while. Years ago there was a 3 year wait to apply after you drew a tag.

couesmagnet - Thank you for articulating so well the thoughts rambling around in my head.


"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard

So back to the original post, what are points worth?$

I suppose they are worth whatever someone would pay.

To start, take the number of years they applied to build the points and multiply it times the price of a hunting license each year. Then add the application fee times the number of years they applied. IMO this is the starting point of the discussion. Personally , I would add $1,400(cost of a decent mount) to whatever my costs are. All of this is hypothetical because I have nowhere near 13 points.

I also agree with Couesmagnet in post 24.

The value of anything is defined as what a buyer is willing to pay and a seller is willing to accept. Makes no difference what anyone cares to guess.

Based on this thread, they aren't worth anything because no willing seller has come forward.

"You can fly a helicopter to the top of Everest and say you've been there. The problem with that is you were an a$$hole when you started and you're still an a$$hole when you get back.
Its the climb that makes you a different person". - Yvon Chouinard

Coues - I dont have a problem with your scenario above. I agree, folks that put in the time should be able to use points as they wish.

I think where people get concerned.... is when you have an individual that applies their non-hunting Aunt, Grandma, Second cousin etc.... those people have no interest in hunting, but someone is willing to pay for the preference point, app fee, etc... which is pretty cheap in reality, especially for residents. They do this for ten years, and can go hunting good units for 5-6 years straight. All you have to do is pay for 2 tags (again, very cheap for residents).

Two different ways of manipulating points. Im fine with the first really, but I do have a problem with the second. Im not sure what the answer is.

cmbulldog has it right.....the issue isn't a father with 5 points hunting with his son with 9 points. In fact, under my proposal the average on the application in this scenario wouldnt be affected. The real problem is non-hunters banking points, and the even bigger issue is the threat that commercial interests will use those people to score guaranteed tags for their clients. Units like 17, 18, 19 are loaded with private property with landowners that charge a ton for access. Although Arizona doesn't give landowners tags, it does allow them to charge huge access fees.

And there are other changes that could exacerbate this problem. Despite significant opposition last year, AZGFD is still exploring a tag return policy tied to a "membership" on their customer service portal(at least according to the commission minutes from Dec 5th). As if tracking your 365 license expiration isn't bad enough, now you would have a club membership to track...brilliant! Members would get the option to turn in their tags and get their points back. The surrendered tags would be donated to a 501c3 non-profit, how those tags are then distributed by that non-profit was vague (the assumption is they would issue them to sick kids and veterans, but I didn't see any language preventing them from auctioning a few for "admin " expenses). I also didn't see anything mentioning how this would be applied against the NR cap. There was also very little explanation around whether someone that applied on a group application could return their tag while other people on the application kept theirs. Under this scenario Grandma could bonus up applications two years in a row.

I attended the meeting at headquarters last year to provide feedback on this issue, I was very disappointed this dumb idea still has life in it. The only tag return policy that had any support in the meeting was a tag return option independent of membership where the tags went to the next people in line in the regular public drawing.

The other thing that will make point whoring more painful in the future is the change to the non-resident bonus pass. In order to create random tags there will almost certainly be a reduction to the max percentage in the NR bonus pass. This smaller slice will get even smaller if these backdoors continue to propagate.

So to the guy that said I just realized the problem existed and I am crying sour grapes because I don't have the friends or funds to participate. You are incorrect. When I was in my 20s, I sent in comments against the "max bonus pool" proposal at the time. A blind person could tell that ANY preference point system based on very limited supply would eventually turn to crap. Arizona had bonus points at the time and most reasonable people realized the odds would someday go their way if the system remained status quo. Unfortunately preference points were integrated across the board (disguised as the max bonus pass) and sure enough, preference points have now created a litany of issues. I decided back then that I would proactively target bad policy rather than whine about it after the fact.

If anyone wants to debate anything I have mentioned above, name the date and time. It sounds like their will be some opportunities in the next couple months at Game and Fish headquarters. I will bring my A game, you better bring yours.

Ryan

>So back to the original post,
>what are points worth?$


whatever someone will pay. what's the shirt you're wearing worth.

>
>The value of anything is defined
>as what a buyer is
>willing to pay and a
>seller is willing to accept.
>Makes no difference what anyone
>cares to guess.
>
>Based on this thread, they aren't
>worth anything because no willing
>seller has come forward.
>
>"You can fly a helicopter to
>the top of Everest and
>say you've been there. The
>problem with that is you
>were an a$$hole when you
>started and you're still an
>a$$hole when you get back.
>
>Its the climb that makes you
>a different person". - Yvon
>Chouinard

hate to spoil your dinner sage, but???

So now there's a problem with ranchers charging to hunt their private land. Remember it's their land not the states? We better tell them what to do now also!! And,,,,, if a guy is at the point of just starting to hunt, and has to borrow gear to start that passion he's labeled a zombie. I know in the beginning when i started i would have been labeled a zombie under javi's new "tax" code. Most people were brought into the sport by friends that already had the passion, and under javi's new program those people would be limited to nominal units, instead of having the chance to have a quality tag with a friend who has several ore points than them. Oh i forgot the newbie is just a zombie cause he didn't start with a full truckload of gear!! So javi what about a father that has 17 points and wants to share his points with his 11 year old son, and he wants to put in for the kaibab cause he wants his son to start out with a quality tag. Under your new intrusive restrictions the father would be stupid to do this cause it wouldn't really help either because of the gaffing he took under your proposal. I personally know of 3 diff fathers who chose to do this, and because they didn't just have to settle for a average unit and had a quality experience at the kaibab, their son's now hunt with a passion. There are several other scenarios that don't include zombies in any way i can name off from experience, so yes indeed your proposal does screw the father and son over and friends putting in together, make no mistake about it. The zombie thing is a good way to scare people but in reality that's a very rare occurrence, and the reality of point averaging is that has been used more to allow friends and families to hunt together. What about this scenario, as i could name off at least 20 more that don't involve zombies. I had a friend that had a friend who was an avid anti hunter. The anti finally went on a hunting trip with his buddy on a kaibab hunt to see what it was all about. After the trip the anti said he would like to try hunting out, but would wait for a kaibab tag cause that's the only place he would want to try it. Well after 13 or so years of applying he decided to put in with his buddy and drew the tag. Now the guy's a hunter. So javi he started out as a anti and a zombie under your def and ended up as a contributing member of the hunting community. Did you account for the other 30 legitimate scenarios before you tried to curtail just one, obviously not!!!!!! No one needs an "a" game to easily dispute your proposal, just their "c" game. If you would like me to name off the other 29 instances from personal experience that have nothing to do with zombies i will, and many of the instances not named yet will include father/son, uncle/cousin, friend / friend, and so on and so on........ Please explain how your new proposal won't screw over the father slash son kaibab example or 30 others i could name off. Oh wait,in the father/son example just explained, they should just be happy with a november tag in 34A cause of your new proposal.You actually spent very little time thinking this out cause you jumped to a rash conclusion and chose to go after a rare circumstance rather than look at the whole picture, without a doubt!!! Like i said before you go crazy trying to limit just one potential issue, cause you were hibernating for a decade, let's try to look at the other 30 legitimate reasons why averaging works and yes only friends and families would attempt to average obviously, other than the very small subset such as the zombies. There have been many many many tags drawn by averaging amongst friends and family, and this sytsem has been used very effectively by those family and friends for years far more than the zombie thing. Also, back to the guy with 15 points putting in with biily the kid and averaging to get a quality free guided hunt? Why should he be limited by your new proposal cause he might never get to go guided cause of his financial situation? Why is he being limited by your new proposal? Is he a zombie of just a good ole boy trying to better his chances and save some money on the guide he would have hired if he would have drawn himself. Who needs an "A" game to figure out this is crap , and just an attempt by a guy that's at the back of the line trying to limit someone at the front of the line. I will indeed be sending the 30 examples i can think of from being in the game for 30 years along with hunter testimonial and pictures of the examples given of the fathers and family who used averaging for years to the g and f. I want them to know that the 30 examples far outweigh the zombie apocolypse that has such a low prevalence. Javi, did you really sit down and think this out, not really.

Javi, here's just one of the 30 other examples i could name off that's personal and involves a father/daughter scenario that's about to happen!! My little sister age 23 has a ton of points for elk. She's not exactly a zombie, cause she's killed 5 coues deer already, but has been waiting for x amount of years to draw a tag for a specific hunt with my dad who only has 4 points. Under your new proposal please explain how this wouldn't screw her over on her dream to hunt with her dad on this specific hunt???? She's waited this long for this to happen. Let's limit everyone cause of just a very small subset of people your talking about right??? What about friends or family that waited for years and sacrificed their own opportunity in the field to hunt together for whatever reason?? Some people that hunt aren't just into themselves, but like to share the experience in a specific unit of their choosing with specific person whether it's a friend or a family member. As far as hunter recruitment is concerned, your new proposal would by far overall negatively affect hunter recruitment, cause your targeting a very very small subset of the averaging population, and hammering the other 95 percent legitimate averagers. Who are we to tell the people that payed their money into the system what to do with their points? These people purchased their points for many diff reasons and several actually use the averaging to achieve their own specific goal in the field with another person of their choosing. It's not always about just getting a tag, but more commonly the experience in the field with the person you chose to share it with!!!! Lots of times that desired memory comes from putting in with people with diff numbers of points for whatever reason. These people in many instances only put in for that many years to do just that, share it with another person be it family of friends. These people will now have their goals directly affected cause of your proposal, and yes these people are mostly family and friends. Now bring your "A" game and answer how your proposal doesn't affect father/son or daughter, or 30 year friends that want to enjoy our past time of hunting their own way which doesn't happen to fit your new proposal. if the g and f was dumb enough to do this , it sure seems like a breech of faith and contract by them. Zombies and fear mongering are effective tactics, but after the initial panic, reality usually sets in with a few moments of clear thinking!!!

Coues,
No sense arguing with Javi. It all comes down different philosophies. If you believe they are your points because you earned them over time, paid with your hard earned money and followed the rules set forth by game and fish, then you will most likely believe you are free to do as you please with them.

Others see people who have more or something they don't have and then they try to take it away from them.

That is why some people like Obamma's redistribution of wealth programs and others don't. The people that work and earned the money don't and the people who didn't earn it, love him.

Personally, I would never tell a person what he can or can't do with their points if they earned them legally.

Javi can put all the lipstick & perfume he wants on this pig, it still doesn't change the fact that it is a pig.

Agree to disagree.

WapitiBob, No I do not have the reports in my possession. Are you thinking about applying there? I'd be happy to help.

No, the report you referenced isn't one I have. Don gave me the info I needed, thanks.