Kaibab Report & Outlook

rockymtnhunter · Sep 29, 2015

Greetings to all & good luck during the upcoming hunts. Just thought I'd give a little report on my Kaibab bowhunt & some observations for the upcoming rifle hunts. I spent 10 days hunting and saw lots of deer. My total deer count during the hunt was 447, of which 181 were bucks, including 3 giant bucks (which were 30?+ 200 pt-class bucks). Didn?t see the huge non-typical that I saw last year but I suspect he's still around. There were some great bucks taken that I know of & congrats to Bishup for his once-in-a-lifetime buck! I had a great opportunity for a 26? 160-170 class 4x4 opening day @ 30 yds, but inadvertently held on my 20 yd pin so shot went just under his chest ? that's bowhunting!##/*?!. Had a couple of other shots, but fell victim to ?jumping the string?. Ended up having some tasty tag soup, but that's OK. Seemed to be more big bucks than I've seen in a long time ? and I first hunted the Kaibab in 1971. I think it will be a good hunt during both the early & late hunts ? esp. the late hunt when the bucks move low & get rutty. Based on what I saw during the bowhunt & if the weather cooperates, there will be some great bucks taken.

Monsoon moisture has been abundant over most of the plateau - everything was green & lush. I did see a noticeable browse line on the aspen in a couple areas that I haven't seen since the early 90?s ? this seems to correlate with healthy deer population. And lots of does w/fawns ? looked like a good fawn crop this year. Deer didn't seem to be using the ponds & tanks very much because of the abundant rain & standing water in lots of places ? but things will likely dry out by Oct. Spent a day on the west side in the low country looking at a few trick tanks ? again things were green and water is in the tanks. Roads were in good shape.

I'll be there during the early & late hunts and can't wait to see how all of you who have tags do. Good luck!

Bishup · Sep 29, 2015

Thank you sir. And thank you for the great advise that you gave me before this hunt.

fin little · Sep 29, 2015

I agree with your report. I saw more bucks this year than Ive seen since the 90s. I ended up taking a nice 3x4 near the end of the hunt. I saw what I believe is the heaviest buck Ive ever seen. 5x4 with baseball bat bases. My brother has the early rifle tag so I know were we will start.

brian390 · Oct 1, 2015

Thanks for the report on the Kaibab rockymtnhunter. Just don't tell game and fish that the deer population is increasing.(Just kidding, not really)I hear from people I know that hunted the Kaibab in the 80's, and they say that at that time it was the best that they had seen it. Rockymtnhunter, is the Kaibab anything even close to the 80's or does it have a long way to go? Thanks.

rockymtnhunter · Oct 1, 2015

Brian390:
Here's my view - I hunted the Kaibab in 1987, '88, '89 and '90 during the either the archery hunts or late 12A West. My daily deer counts during those years were typically 120-160/day & it seemed that deer #'s were similar to what I first saw in the early 1970's. In 1986, AZGFD started issuing lots of antlerless tags for 12AE & 12AW (3,500 in '86; 2,550 in '87; 1,000 in '88; 2,550 in '89 and 4,700 in '90). IMO the herd size went down significantly after that, which was the AZGFD's goal I guess.

The total # of buck tags for 12AE & 12AW peaked @ 3,650 in 1987; and '88 to '90 seemed to be the peak years in terms of big bucks. So this year, there is a total of only 675 buck tags for 12AW & 12AE for the early & late rifle seasons. That's about 80% less than during the late '80's! IMO the deer herd never recovered from the antlerless hunts in the late '80's.

There was a visible browse line on the aspen over much of the high plateau during the 1980's...which is usually an indicator of too many deer for too little browse. Since then there have been a lot of things that have improved the habitat, such as fire, and I believe both the summer & winter range is in much better condition now than what it was during the '70's & '80's. A key limiting factor for deer populations is usually winter habitat quality, quantity & availability. Based on what I've seen that past few years on the Kaibab there should be an increasing herd. But that doesn't seem to be the case.

Is the herd presently being overhunted? I don't think so. So what's going on? Too many predators, such as lions & coyotes? Maybe. Not enough water on the winter range? Maybe, based on what I've seen recently it looks like 10-20% of the trick tanks aren't working. Too many Jr antlerless tags? Maybe, but 300-500 antlerless tags shouldn't be constraining given the habitat condition. Is AZGFD's population objective too low? Good question, but I'm not sure what the objective presently is - I've heard it's 8,000-12,000. Not enough timber harvest to create disturbed edge-like habitat on the high plateau? As a forester who worked on the North Kaibab, my opinion is that managed fires serve can serve the same purpose as extensive logging activity that took place during the '50's to '70's/early 80's.

I suppose it may be a combination of all these factors and perhaps some others. But that's just my view & opinion.

cmbbulldog · Oct 1, 2015

Bishup - Can we see your buck?

Deerdon · Oct 2, 2015

I spoke with the Biologist prior to the early archery hunt and she told me that the Kaibab heard was at or exceeding management objectives. They dramatically lowered the number of archery tags in the hopes that it would increase the overall age class for bucks. They also combined, into one season, the doe hunt in the hopes that this would help reduce the heard a bit to a more desired level.
I'm not real familiar with the condition of the winter range...but she also indicated that it was being over taxed? Just passin' on what i was told.

sirroyal · Oct 4, 2015

Rockymtnhunter, Im very impressed with your knowledge and willingness to share info!
Not many guys like you now days!
You are definitely one of the good guys!!!

SirRoyal

Little John to Robin Hood:
"Are we the good guys or the bad guys"?

rockymtnhunter · Oct 4, 2015

Deerdon: Thanks for the feedback. I understand AZGFD manages the Kaibab under a so-called "alternative deer management plan". I'm still not sure what the current population mgt objective in terms of total # of deer & I've never heard it stated out loud officially. Interesting that she would characterize it as at or exceeding mgt objectives - just what exactly is the number associated with that mgt objective?

I think I understand the reduction in archery tags given the dramatic increase in bowhunter success in recent years (11% in 2010 up to 30% in 2014) - that's 130 more bucks taken during the bowhunt. An archery 30% success ratio is exceptionally high when compared to most bow hunts. Are Kaibab archers all related to William Tell or Howard Hill?

As far as winter range considerations - it's hard for me to agree it's over-taxed given the conditions I've personally observed the past three years. Summer/early fall moisture has been abundant, but water sources could be limiting as I previously stated. Livestock grazing shouldn't be a problem because there generally isn't any on the winter range areas. And fires over the past decade or more have generally improved the winter habitat, but I may be wrong.

rockymtnhunter · Oct 4, 2015

SirRoyal: Thanks for your kind words. Now that I'm a little older & not quite able to do everything I want to, I still want to give others a leg up because others have been kind to me at times when I needed help.

brian390 · Oct 4, 2015

LAST EDITED ON Oct-04-15 AT 11:26PM (MST)[p]I just got back from a turkey hunt on the Kaibab and the turkey seem to be doing pretty good also. I saw a total of 7 flocks and two single toms in 2 and a half days. I also saw a big buck probably around 190 inches and a 160 incher both on the east side. If you have the 12a east October rifle buck tag I would have no problem letting you know where the 190 inch buck is hanging. (he might not be there by the time the hunt comes around though) I saw quiet a few bucks with none being that big except for that one 190 incher.
Man they had a lot of doe tags in the late 80's. The deer herd must have been really high to cause that many tags. I have no idea how many tags were issued in the 70's so I can't make a comparison. As of lately my guesses to the poorer quality of the herd would be predators and over hunting.(In my opinion) Throughout the 2000's the herd was really hurting and they were still issuing in the area of a 1000 buck tags for October just for the west side alone per year. They were also issuing quiet a few doe tags during that time. With how poor the deer herd already was and that many tags, it had to hurt the population. They would probably say that they were trying to let the fire areas grow back and that there wasn't enough food on the winter range which i guess is reasonable argument.
I think that the amount of tags that they issued this year is reasonable. 450 early October west side and 100 late west side. 95 east side October and 30 late tags. 550 archery tags issued this year. With these numbers I would think that the population would have to increase. These were just my opinions and I could be completely wrong. Does anyone else have any opinions on the herd quality?

tph247 · Oct 5, 2015

I will second on rockymtnhunter's generosity. Very rare indeed. I am looking forward the 12A West early hunt and sharing what I learn for the late season hunters.

Greenbullet · Oct 5, 2015

>SirRoyal: Thanks for your kind words.
>Now that I'm a little
>older & not quite able
>to do everything I want
>to, I still want to
>give others a leg up
>because others have been kind
>to me at times when
>I needed help.

Rocky, pm sent!

shedneck · Oct 7, 2015

brian390 - PM sent.

shedneck · Oct 7, 2015

rockymtnhunter - PM sent.

brian390 · Oct 7, 2015

Shedneck and greenbullet pm sent.

yardgoat · Oct 13, 2015

Brian, I dont need to know exactly where you saw that 190 deer but if you could let me know the general area would help out a lot.I am an old time resident and I have always hunted the west side.First time 1967,anyways we will be up there a week ahead of time scouting on two mules and any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Scott

brian390 · Oct 13, 2015

yardgoat, I already told two hunters on this forum where the buck was and I'm going to just try those two only so that they have the best chance at it.

JP · Oct 17, 2015

I sent you a pm.
JP

JP · Oct 17, 2015

PM sent

brian390 · Oct 23, 2015

Yardgoat, pm sent.

Joe2Kool · Oct 24, 2015

447 deer sightings in 10 days! Wow!!

goldhunter · Oct 26, 2015

I have the late hunt. Should a guy have an ATV or can you get everywhere with a truck?

brian390 · Oct 29, 2015

Shedneck, pm sent.

Goldhunter, You can get most places on the kaibab without a quad. If it's wet some places could get slippery, but the main roads stay pretty passable. I've been up there on the late hunt when it snowed about 3 inches in jumpup, and we got everywhere without quads. There was some spots where you almost do get stuck if you aren't careful. Good luck on your hunt and please post pics of your hunt if you could.

goldhunter · Nov 1, 2015

Sounds like I should take one unless the forecast is absolute dry,

Thanks for the reply

tph247 · Nov 2, 2015

I met up with rockymtnhunter on the Kaibab and had a great early rifle hunt. I killed my best mule deer yet by far. rockymtnhunter knows the Kaibab deer well (to say the least). We shared a camp and had a great time.

I hope the picture comes up but I have been having trouble uploading.