2016 Boquillas Ranch fee schedule--some of you are NOT gonna like it!

DonMartin · Jan 25, 2016

I was just sent the 2016 Boquillas Ranch hunt fee schedule and I thought I'd share it with you and see what you think!

This year they have a separate fee schedule for what they call "High Demand" tags.

Those are:
Hunt 2047, archery antelope, hunter permit is $500 while assistant permits are $80 each.
Hunt 2014, rifle antelope. Hunter permits are $500, and assistant permits are $80 each.
Hunt 3134, archery bull elk permittees. Hunters pay $500 with an $80 per assistant fee.
Hunt 3004, early rifle bull. You too pay $500 for a hunter permit plus an $80 per assistant fee.

But here is the good news.

They will only issue a limited number of permits for each hunt. That is designed to reduce hunting pressure for those that are willing to pay these fees!

For archery antelope, they will only issue 25 hunter permits out of the 70 permits that are being issued by AZGD.

For rifle antelope, they will issue just 30 permits out of the 100 tags that are issued by AZGFD.

For early archery bull elk. There will be just 50 permits issued out of the 125 that AZGFD authorized.

For early rifle bull permittees, they will issue just 25 out of the 50 that will be issued by AZGFD.

For the next block of hunts, which includes general rifle deer, early over the counter archery deer, late over the counter archery deer, CHAMP any elk, muzzleloader bull elk, late rifle bull elk, and bighorn sheep, you will pay a flat $80 fee plus an $80 per assistant fee.

For us cow hunters, we are getting a deal!

Fees for the early antlerless elk hunts, both the early and late hunts, and the archery antlerless elk hunts, are just $50 per hunter and $50 per assistant.

They are giving the juniors a break.
For hunt 3066, juniors antlerless elk, they pay $1 and there is no charge for assistants.

Same for junior deer hunts. I say kudos to the ranch for this.

Prairie dog hunters pay $20.

For us "rich" guides, well we've seen an increase too! We get one just about every year, so this comes as no surprise.

The fees to guide on the ranch is 2016 have gone from $300 a year (the same as an Arizona guide licenses have been for years) to $500 a year!

Well, there you have it.

I do have some questions about this.

Back several years ago when all this started I was told by a high ranking AZ G&F Dept. employee that the Commission was going to have the back's of Arizona sportsmen (didn't say nothing about guides--they never do--that's why NR guides pay the same as resident guides.

I was told "There is a line in the sand" when it comes to charging exorbitant fees to the state's sportsmen.

Hmm, wonder if the ranch has reached that threshold?

Anyway,I'm not very happy about these fees, either personally or professionally.

I am hoping that the Mohave Sportsman Club will consider boycotting the ranch for their annual "Antelope Eaters" predator hunt.

Also I am well aware that the ranch's "ace in the hole" is that they control ALL the access to the huge 750,000 acre ranch.

But what about the 250,000 acres of State Trust inside the borders of the ranch.

Would that not be the state's "Ace in the hole?"

Can't they regulate fees for those lands, which are owned by the state of Arizona, which means you and me?

I believe in fair play.

You got "costs" and wanna raise fees, sure, its mostly private property, so do what you want.

But the wildlife out there belongs to the state, not the ranch, and those state trust lands are just that, state owned, so don't we have a little "juice" too?

I'm curious to how you feel about all of this?

I've got a ton of antelope points and have been applying in Unit 10 for ever.

I'm a cow elk guy so this really won't adversely affect me.

And I'm thinking that any NR's aren't going to balk at paying those additional fees for the "High Demand" tags that they've waited years, and years for, but what about the average Arizona resident, is this going to affect the way he applies for tags this year.

And why did the ranch wait till now to put out this information? Was it timed to be when the hunt booklet came out?

Listen I do understand and appreciate the rights of private land owners. But it appears that at least some of these changes are designed to "stick it to" some of those who draw high demand tags.

And I could rant about the rise in guides fees that have occurred every year, but truthfully, most of you could care less about that issue.

So let's here what YOU got to say!

I bet some will say, "Hey that is cool,less pressure out there for my once in a lifetime experience."

And what about the potential extra pressure that will be put on adjoining properties on those High Demand tags. Will that have an affect on them?

So let er rip fellas!

Don Martin

Captain_coues · Jan 25, 2016

I think it sucks. I've only been out there for one hunt, and the place is awesome. I'm surprised it took this long for fees like this. I'm not at all saying I agree with them, just surprised it took this long. Arizona has always been the hold out for stuff like this. We see and hear about it in every western state, but AZ was always different. I suppose it was only a matter of time. Something, and I don't know what, needs to be settled with the 250,000 acres of public.

I think about all of the changes I've seen over the past 25 years with hunting. All I tell myself is to get out and enjoy it every chance I get because next year something will change and not for the better.

DonMartin · Jan 25, 2016

One thing I did miss on concerning the antlerless elk hunts.

Antlerless elk permits come with one FREE assist permit. Additional permits are $50 each.

Note the $50 fee is a reduction from 2015, when the fee was $60, with one free assistant.

Don Martin

cmbbulldog · Jan 25, 2016

Sounds like a good deal to me. You draw an archery tag and you lose over half the other permit holders if you pay to access the ranch. I wish it was easier to get on big ranches like this in other states.

brian390 · Jan 25, 2016

LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-16 AT 05:04PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-16 AT 05:03?PM (MST)

I think that it sucks. They don't even own all of the property that they're blocking off and charging to hunt. It also sounds like a rip off on the prices. The state and government need to stop selling so much of their land. Once the land is sold it's gone forever. I will stay away from the boquillas for now on.

bonecollector777 · Jan 25, 2016

Just glad I don't hunt unit 10. .

DonMartin · Jan 25, 2016

Here is a fact that we don't know. Just how many of the archery and rifle antelope permittees hunted on the Big Bo in the past?

How man of the archery and early hunters hunted on the Ranch?

I'd like to know that information.

The way it sounds is that it is a great deal cause there is less hunting pressure, right?

But what IF it turns out that those figures are just based on ranch permits they sold in year's past?

No way that every hunter who had antelope and/or early archery and rifle elk tags hunted on the Boquillas.

Good marketing strategy as far as the reason for charging $500 to a hunter IF that means less pressure there. But what if it doesn't make it lower? Wat if it is the same amount of permits that have been issued in the past.

Would than make a difference to you?

I can tell you this, myself and Page neither applied for Unit 10 antelope tags, even though we have a fist full of points.

Just to rich for my blood, though I have no doubt that they will sell all of the limited hunt permits.

Guys have waited years and years for an antelope tag, or archery or early rifle tags and they will pay that $500.

Sorry, I can't do it.

Don Martin

aztap · Jan 25, 2016

I wonder if the Arizona Game and Fish Department will do anything at all to help rectify this situation? Trouble is likely ahead. Permit numbers were already determined and published before this new Boquillas Ranch edict came out, just like the last time the Ranch pulled this trick on the State. Unit 10 is composed of about 2300 square miles of northern Arizona. Permit numbers for each hunt are based on data from the entire unit. Since only about 1/3, or less, of the unit will remain open to unrestricted access by hunters, it is likely that serious overcrowding could occur in the open areas. Overharvest of elk, deer and antelope will also likely occur in the remaining open area. An emergency reduction in the number of hunting permits should be considered to keep from impacting game populations in the open area. As an example, there are nearly 2500 elk permits available for Unit 10 for 2016. Over 1600 of these permits are for antlerless elk and few people are willing to pay to access the Boquillas Ranch to hunt hunt antlerless elk. Can you imagine the crowding that will occur on the Kaibab National Forest, and the few other remaining open areas? The Ranch is further restricting the number of hunters to be allowed access for buck and bulls of each species which will further impact overcrowding and overharvest. Arizona hunters should demand that the Arizona Game and Fish Department manage our game for our benefit. Don't let the Boquillas Ranch determine how hunting is managed in Unit 10, that's your responsibility to us.

AZBuckSnort · Jan 25, 2016

Lets say there are more than 30 permit holders willing to pay the $500 ranch fee, who decides which 30 will get Big Bo Ranch Permits? Will there be a drawing? Who will administer it? If there isn't a drawing and it is first-come first-served will all have equal notifucation from AZGFD when draw results are posted or will applicants have to purchase a special web portal advance notice membership fee tp get early notification?
It would not surprise me that more than 30 of the lucky permit holders will want access to the Big Bo Ranch, who gets those ranch passes over another permit holder will be interesting to see.

AZ8 · Jan 25, 2016

How bout this. One outfitter buys up the entire access permit allotment. If you want to hunt the ranch, you'll have no choice but to hire the guide.

The initial "shot across the bow" towards land owner tags???? Maybe????

There are other large ranches in 5A, 5B, 4A that will be watching this closely.

This is a slippery slope we're heading down.

fin little · Jan 25, 2016

I think your right about the landowner tags.

SDBugler · Jan 26, 2016

Did the chance of drawing a unit 10 tag just go up?

Will most residents want to cough up an extra $500? What about NR's, do you think it will impact some of those applicants?

What if someone draws a HD tag and then after drawing the tag doesn't get one of the limited access permits? Have they determined how permits will be issued?

ElmerFudd · Jan 26, 2016

Wish I saw this before applying. Oh well... Probably won't draw anyway. With the limit of half the tags, you can't scout the area off the ranch first. Got to get in and buy if you are going to do it. I'll probably buck up if I draw, but wouldn't have applied if I saw this first.

RageTree · Jan 26, 2016

If you have not purchased an access permit in the past you probably didn't know that the sale of those permits is being administered by an Outfitter.

You can smell the conflict all the way from here in Flagstaff.

WapitiBob · Jan 26, 2016

Call the dept and change you app.

ruthunter · Jan 26, 2016

LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-16 AT 12:38PM (MST)[p]Its a messed up deal for the guys who cant get on the ranch once they reach there quota. I hunted 10 last year for goat and imo if your not hunting the ranch your odds go way down. Don't get me wrong..you can kill a goat off the ranch but there few and far between and everybody is looking/pressuring them as the ranch doesn't open for scouting until a few weeks b4 the opener. Ill guarantee the archery antelope success drops tremendously. Hunting is becoming a rich man sport.

ElmerFudd · Jan 26, 2016

The lady I talked to at the draw office said I would have to send a paper application in with a check for the full fees and a letter explaining why I want to changed. I probably won't draw anyway so I'll let it go. Maybe they could lose the letter and I would get dinged for a double application and rejected?

DonMartin · Jan 26, 2016

Bet the odds WILL Be better.

I know that my sweetie and I , after applying for Unit 10 antelope tags for many, many years, opted to apply other places.

I have also heard today that we should be patient, that the Department is working with the Navajo Nation on this situation.

I guess we will see!

Don Martin

mike111 · Jan 26, 2016

I hope the AZGFD steps up and figures out a plan to stop situations like this from happening in the future. The AZGFD has done a great job at limiting similar instances in the past. For example the unit 19B landowner who locked gates and was planning to charge fees to hunt antelope. AZGFD did a great job with a drastic reduction in tags so that landowner could not profit. The AZGFD has plenty of ways to stop the Boquillas from benefiting in this, hopefully they use it to their advantage and end this soon..

Idcurs · Feb 1, 2016

A few years back we hunters told the G&F board to cut tags in 18b and 19b or make them smaller units?The goat tags were cut to 5 in 19b but none of any tags have been cut in 18b.The big ranches in those units charge huge tag prices to hunt there.10 could be cut into west and east,drop the tags for trophy hunts to less than 5 in the west,big bo gets ##### for dinner!!!!!!!This can be done before this draw if AZ G&F had any balls!!!!Guess what they don't and most likely won't till after this year,if enough hunters go to meetings and put this up it could happen!!!!!!

rthrbhntng · Feb 1, 2016

UPDATE on the Boquillas 2016 Fee Fiasco sweeping the internet.

Jim deVos, Assistant Director of Wildlife Management at the
Arizona Game and Fish Department, provided the following information update regarding the Big Boquillas Hunt Program:

As the deadline approaches to apply for 2016 pronghorn and elk hunt permit-tags, the Arizona Game and Fish Department has been made aware of website information indicating a substantial increase in the permit fee structure for high-demand hunts on the Boquillas Ranch in Game Management Unit 10. This information is on a web domain apparently associated with the ranch's lessee.

The 750,000-acre ranch in northwest Arizona, which accounts for approximately 50 percent of the land in Unit 10, is owned by the Navajo Nation. Game and Fish continues negotiations to renew an access agreement with the Navajo Nation Department of Agriculture. Hunters might have noticed information on the lessee's website indicating that the permit fee rate has been raised to $500 on some hunts, according to: https://huntbigboranch.com/ranch-hunt-access-rates/

This recently posted increase is not consistent with the negotiations that the department has had with the Navajo Nation. The department and the Navajo Nation remain committed to establishing a lower permit fee structure, as well as reaching a long-term access agreement for the ranch. In December 2015, the Director of the Navajo Department of Agriculture made a presentation to the Arizona Game and Fish Commission indicating a strong commitment from the Navajo Nation to develop a collaborative approach to managing wildlife and hunter access on the Big Boquillas Ranch. In negotiations with the Navajo Nation, the Nation has agreed in principle that modest fee increases are important to preserve hunting and hunter access as part of the collaboration between the department and the Navajo Nation.

In fall 2013, the parties reached an agreement ensuring public access in exchange for Game and Fish enforcement of ranch rules designed to increase respect for the Navajo Nation?s private property on the ranch. The department originally supported a $60 annual Recreational Access Impact fee charged to all people entering the ranch to offset the impacts of recreation. The department's support of this fee, and the enforcement of the ranch rules, shows its willingness to find new solutions.

AZ8 · Feb 1, 2016

Thanks for the update.

Not sure what the Department is doing, but this response from Jim DeVos kinda just leaves everything hanging without any resolution. Doesn't really say anything we didn't already know.

It's like telling a joke without the punchline! Lol

CAelknuts · Feb 1, 2016

This issue is of great interest to me. I've got 23 antelope points, so I have a very good chance of getting drawn if I apply for unit 10. 10 is probably still my #1 choice, but I'm also giving serious thought to 19B and 5B. Haven't decided which units and order yet, but those are the 3 in the mix for me. After all these years of applying, if I do get drawn for unit 10, I'd pay the access fee in a heartbeat. I wouldn't like it, but it's a heck of a lot less expensive than some of the other ranches in other units.

mike111 · Feb 1, 2016

Caelkhunts I hope you get your BO permit in time; but I'm curious what the reactions will be when top point holders draw their dream unit 10 hunt and find out all the boquillas permits have sold out.

PIOCHE2014 · Feb 2, 2016

Does any one know what the procedure is going to be. On how to purchase permit once tag is drawn. Do you go to ranch website? unit 10 successful applicants should be emailed at the same time to level the playing field as far as buying permits thanks Mike

Bwht4x4 · Feb 2, 2016

The only fair way to issue permits for the Big Bo is for them to have a deadline for interested hunters to submit an application and the $500 fee. Then they have a drawing for the 30 pronghorn permits. Any other way is not fair. First come first serve for a permit on such a sought after hunt isn't right. First come first serve would be a cluster and a dis-service to the folks that have waited 23+ years for a tag!!

bonecollector777 · Feb 2, 2016

Just curious if you have waited 23 years why are you using that many points on unit 10? There are some much better units to draw than that with those kind of points.

AZ8 · Feb 5, 2016

Looks the all the backlash pressured them. Appears the Navajo Nation showed the leasee who the real owner is. Lol this was clearly a money grab by the leasee.

The fees are now $80.

https://huntbigboranch.com/ranch-hunt-access-rates/

CAelknuts · Feb 6, 2016

>Just curious if you have waited
>23 years why are you
>using that many points on
>unit 10? There are some
>much better units to draw
> than that with those
>kind of points.

Bonecollector, not sure what you mean by 'much better units'. If you mean 5B or 19B, yes they are both good but 19B has private land issues and the cost to access them can be steep. Most of the other units are less desirable, at least in my estimation. I'll take my chances in one of these three units, probably in 10. If you have an opinion about which units are 'much better', I'd love to hear from you. I'm open minded and always willing to learn from others.

To draw unit 10 in the bonus pass round, 23 may or may not get me in. It probably will, but I may miss by a point.

bonecollector777 · Feb 6, 2016

Just reread your post. For some reason I had it in my head that you were talking about elk. Now I see you're talking antelope. Yes unit 10 is worthy of 23 points. I apologize.

RdRdrFan · Feb 7, 2016

>Looks the all the backlash pressured
>them. Appears the Navajo Nation
>showed the leasee who the
>real owner is. Lol
>this was clearly a money
>grab by the leasee.
>
>The fees are now $80.
>
>https://huntbigboranch.com/ranch-hunt-access-rates/

I'm not saying that you are wrong and that it wasn't a money grab. But if it's a money grab then they are dumb. $500 to access that much acreage that holds the best animals in a premium unit just isn't that much money. If it was a money grab then why limit the number of hunters? If it was a money grab then why not wait until after the draw and post up that you are going to charge $1,500 per hunter for access? You know that people will pay it if they've been saving points for that many years.

I definitely could be wrong. I freely admit that. But if it was a money grab then it was an idiotic money grab. Much better returns could have been had with other approaches.

CAelknuts · Feb 7, 2016

>Just reread your post. For some
>reason I had it in
>my head that you were
>talking about elk. Now I
>see you're talking antelope. Yes
>unit 10 is worthy of
>23 points. I apologize.

Bonecollector, we are in agreement. I wouldn't burn 23 points on unit 10 elk. If I had that many points, I'd only be applying for unit 9 or 23 early rifle bull. Maybe one or two other hunts, but definitely not unit 10. 10 has some great bulls, but I think it's a bit tougher elk unit than some of the others to kill a truly giant bull. Not that any unit is 'easy' to kill a giant.

AZ8 · Feb 7, 2016

LAST EDITED ON Feb-08-16 AT 05:21AM (MST)[p]>I'm not saying that you are
>wrong and that it wasn't
>a money grab. But
>if it's a money grab
>then they are dumb.
>$500 to access that much
>acreage that holds the best
>animals in a premium unit
>just isn't that much money.
> If it was a
>money grab then why limit
>the number of hunters?
>If it was a money
>grab then why not wait
>until after the draw and
>post up that you are
>going to charge $1,500 per
>hunter for access? You
>know that people will pay
>it if they've been saving
>points for that many years.
>
>
>I definitely could be wrong.
>I freely admit that.
>But if it was a
>money grab then it was
>an idiotic money grab.
>Much better returns could have
>been had with other approaches.
>

You're probably right. Maybe money grab wasn't the correct statement. But whatever it was, it was intentional. Maybe collusion between some outfitters and hunters to weed out as many people from the ranch as possible by issuing a $500 fee? Force many to choose another unit. Then, a few days before the app deadline, conveniently change it back. Only now a lot of hunters have already submitted thier app to other units so it's too late for many.

But it seemed to have worked. I know many that skipped 10 this year due to this fiasco. Heck, even a few on this very thread.

CAelknuts · Feb 8, 2016

Not me!

Bwht4x4 · Feb 8, 2016

Not me either. I'm in for unit 10!

DonMartin · Feb 10, 2016

I opted out, and so did my sweetie and we both had a lot of bonus points and have been putting in for Unit 10 for what seems forever.

Oh well, we decided we were not going to play this "game" of "wait and see" and how it was going to end up.

And for those that think that the outfitter/guides were behind all this crap, you are way WRONG!

Matter of fact I'm just a tad disappointed at the AZG&F Dept. over the fact that while they went to bat for the average Joe sportsman, once again they have turned their backs on Arizona outfitters and guides.

For those of us that try and offer reasonably priced hunts on the Boquillas, this $500 fee is just a gouge. The guide fee has gone up incrementally in the past few years from $100, to $300 and now to $500!

You know that is fee is going to get passed on to clients and that's a shame. I hate seeing the prices being raised to the point where it is out of reach of the average blue collar sportsmen!

G&F never has, and in my opinion, never will look out for Arizona outfitters and guides.

They let ANYONE come in here and for the same $300 that residents pay, let them guide. But take a look at some of the other western states, like Nevada and see if it is fair and equitable?

The last time I checked, IF I wanted to guide in that state I would have to pay over a $1,000 and work as a sub guide for three years for a Master Guide before I could qualify as a MASTER guide! And this no matter how long I have been in the business. And I'd still pay way, way more fees to NDOW than their resident outfitters and guides do.

No, other states Game & Fish Departments assist their outfitters and guides.

Arizona does not!

And I'm not talking about asking for special guide only tags like Nevada lets their outfitters have access too!

And while I am keenly aware that most Arizona sportsmen could care less about this, those of us that are in the business and try to provide a reasonably priced service to fellow sportsmen, it does matter.

We are not all rich guys that drive shiny new jacked up trucks, have 20 spotters, stay in $75,000 trailers and run 175 trail cameras. I have a 2006 Super Duty with 232,000 miles on it!

Some of us, like my outfit, have two or three part time guys that love to hunt and enjoy helping others.

So unless we get at least two separate hunts on the Boquillas this fall for our guides; that $500 fee will mean that instead of us being able to offer a 2 X 1 fully guided and outfitted 4 day antlerless elk hunt for $2,100 ($1,050 per person) like we did in 2015 now it will go to $2,600!

I have been hunting Unit 10 since I got out of the U.S. Army in 1972.

I've spent hundred of hours over 20 years on ranch clean up projects on the Boquillas that I started when I was the president of the Mohave Sportsman Club.

Nope some of us are just guys who like to help out fellow sportsmen and I think it is a darn shame the the Department doesn't see us as being worthy to stand up for us like they do others in the outdoor recreation industry!

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters

tooele · Feb 18, 2016

Don in your opinion do you think the fish and game was blind sided by this? Seems like the Boquillas has them in a corner due to the fact that most of 10 is the ranch and they know it. Not much option here if the owners of the ranch are going to act this way. Who is the owners of the ranch anyway, that ought to tell you a whole bunch.

DonMartin · Feb 27, 2016

I DO believe that this year AZ G&F got blinded by the Cholla Land and Cattle Co., which leases the land from the Navajo Nation.
The Department negotiated with the Navajo Nation, and NOT Cholla to get a reduction on those fees at the last minute.

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters

Blank · Feb 28, 2016

I spoke extensively with several members of AZGF who told me that the tribe was never the problem, and were actually quite cooperative, It was the leasee and ranch manager, in their opinion, who were the holdup on the negotiations.

DonMartin · Feb 28, 2016

I absolutely feel the Department was blind sided by the actions of the ranch lessee and without the approval of the Navajo Nation, who owns the ranch.

It was through the AZ G&F Dept. working with the Navajo Nation that the onerous fees for "High Demand" were reduced.

For those sportsmen out there that don't believe the department is working for you--guess again!

Wished they would do the same for Arizona guides which are being hammered there!

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters

bonecollector777 · Feb 29, 2016

While I'm glad they were able to come to an agreement and drop the prices down to hunt there I don't think that one act could be "them working for us". They do a lot of other ridiculous and stupid things that the public doesn't want. Such as how they set up the tag return program among other things.