AZ Point Guard-Questions

mike111

Active Member
Messages
920
Arizona has just initiated the Point Guard system. This allows an applicant to turn their tag back in prior to the close of business the day before the start of that particular hunt. It also ensures you will not lose your bonus points for that species. Of course you can only do this one time per species and the second time you will lose all your points.

I have posted information off the azgfd website on the Point Guard System. I have a few questions regarding the Point Guard System.

1.) If I apply with three people on one applicaton, and one person on that application decided they want their points back. Do we all have to turn our tag back in, or just that one person?

2.) In the azgfd info below it states the lead applicant must purchase the point guard in a group application. That's the first person on the application...So if you were to apply on a group application, just by the lead applicant purchasing the point guard can anybody use it? Or does the lead applicant along with the people that use it have to buy it? What is somewhat confusing to me is, if I'm the lead applicant and I don't use the point guard why would I purchase it for myself? Wouldn't it only be for the applicants that want the point guard protection, so why would the lead applicant purchase of point guard matter?


Here is the information off the azgfd website:

All of us know what it feels like to deal with the frustration and disappointment of an unforeseen event. After all, life happens.

That's why the Arizona Game and Fish Department is excited to announce an innovative new program in ?PointGuard,? which essentially will provide hunters with peace of mind in knowing that they can surrender their hunt permit-tag for any reason without losing their coveted bonus points.

A bonus point is an accumulated credit that authorizes the department to issue an applicant additional computer-generated random numbers during a draw. An applicant accumulates a bonus point each year in which he or she submits a valid application and does not draw a hunt permit-tag. PointGuard ensures that if a successful applicant is unable to participate in a hunt for any reason, the accumulated bonus points that were expended to draw that hunt permit-tag will be reinstated.



Here are the requirements:
? PointGuard is available to applicants who apply online for a hunt permit-tag.
? All applicants must sign up for a free AZGFD Portal account to purchase PointGuard (visit www.azgfd.gov, click on the ?Sign in to Account? button in the upper right-hand corner of the home page, then select the ?Create an Account? option).
? PointGuard is $5 per species, per applicant, purchased at the time of completing the online application, or prior to the application period deadline. The fee is non-refundable.
? Only one hunt permit-tag may be surrendered, per species. If an applicant is drawn in the future for that particular species, that hunt-permit tag must be used, expending all accumulated bonus points.

The primary applicant (the person who takes the lead in completing the online application for the other applicants) will be prompted to purchase PointGuard at the time of completing the online application. That primary applicant can purchase PointGuard for each additional applicant who has a verified Portal account. This process must be completed prior to the application period deadline, which is 11:59 p.m. (MST) Tuesday, June 14.



Here is the process to surrender a hunt permit-tag:
? A hunt permit-tag must be surrendered prior to the close of business the day before the start of that particular hunt.
? An applicant who has purchased PointGuard will present the original hunt permit-tag to be surrendered, along with a completed tag surrender application form, in person to any customer service representative at any of the department's statewide office locations.
? The hunt permit-tag being surrendered and PointGuard purchase will be verified by the department.
? The department will restore all accumulated bonus points for that particular species, including the bonus point the applicant would have accrued if not successful in the draw.
? The hunt permit-tag fee is non-refundable.

A person who donates, or transfers, his or her hunt permit-tag to a qualified nonprofit organization, also can participate in tag surrender, provided the requirements listed above are fulfilled. An acceptable proof of the transfer must be provided to the department (a receipt from the qualified nonprofit organization, for example). The tag surrender application form and an acceptable proof of the hunt permit-tag being donated must be completed within 60 days of the donation, and no less than 30 days before the next application deadline for that particular species.

According to rule (R12-4-118), the department has several options for the reissuance of a surrendered hunt permit-tag. The proximity to the start of a particular hunt, the type of hunt permit-tag, and demand for that hunt permit-tag will factor into how it will be reissued.
 
Those are some very good questions. My question is has this point guard system been in place for the elk and antelope drawings or will it only be available for the deer drawing ? And when will the online deer drawings be available. I have already created a portal account but it's not showing any online applications. Am I missing something?
 
Answering your questions, no it was not available during the elk and antelope. This is the first drawing it's been an option. Online apps will probably be available this week. Usually middle of May.
As for the point guard questions the stuff you posted answered your question. If you put in with a group whoever is applicant A is the one that will chouse who wants point guard. Could be just one guy two guys or all of them. And then only the guys that want to give the tag back would give it back. Not everyone has to give their tag back.
 
The way I read it, it is a one time deal until your points drop to zero. Anyone in the party can opt for it and the others can keep their tags. So getting a friend or relative with lots of points and no intention of hunting to apply with you can get your points up for two years instead of the one year possible now. Of course, if bad stuff really happens, it wouldn't be fair to force your application mates to turn in their tags too....
 
Bonecollector777 that clears it up for me on Applicant A choosing who on the application will be purchasing point guard. Thanks guys for all the information!
 
This just makes it that much easier for the rich to ensure they can draw good tags every year. (Buying bonus points for years for non-hunting friends or family, then they can apply with one of the high-bonus-point non-hunting applicants to increase the party apps draw odds TWICE now before the dummy applicant gets cleared to zero)

Or do they have a way to stop this loophole?
 
he is right. look at many of the individuals that draw tags yr. after yr. and it mathematically makes no sense for them to do it. watch for one of them with a 23s archery elk tag. he draws premium elk and deer hunts yr. after yr. and slides under the radar. there is a core group of individuals who have learned the system and how to exploit it very, very, well. this will play into their hands very nicely. after yrs. and yrs. of drawing back to back against all odds the most coveted tags in america for elk and deer they were probably about out of options to point bank. their saving grace has arrived.
 
I don't think there is any loophole fix.

A dummy applicant with 15 points can bring a 2 point holder (loyalty and hunter ed lets say) hunter up to 9 points in year 1. Then they got drawn, and dummy applicant uses the PointGuard to give his tag back and keep his points, and in Year 2, dummy applicant still has 15 points, and applies with the same 2 point hunter AGAIN and gets him drawn for the second year IN A ROW.

It is much cheaper to use a dummy applicant twice than it is pay for double the amount of dummy applicants for single use only... It is an expensive proposition any way you look at it, but people do it, and it is now easier for them to do so.
 
It says they even give the point the applicant would have got, so if the dummy applied in a year with even points, say 14 to average 8 with the two point applicant, next year the dummy would have 15 to average 8.5 that rounds to 9 with the again 2 point applicant. And in year two, the second tag might even be used by ?

On the other hand, it wouldn't be fair to make one of two serious hunters give the tag back if the other has a genuine need to turn the tag back.

It's a great deal for someone with a genuine need to turn back a tag, but there is potential to abuse the system twice as much per dummy applicant.
 
I bet the percentage of sincere, legitimate reasons to surrender your tag back is about 0.001%

This system will be fraught with abuse.
 
point guard is a great idea. what they should do is specify premium hunts and after an individual draws them, they can't draw again for five years. this would take away all "loopholes." azlife knows the exploitability of the system as it is now. it's pretty easy to exploit and draw and draw again. there are specific examples over and over again.
 
I am very happy to see G&F offer something like this. Not all reasons someone may return a tag are medical or mischief. I applied my son for a deer hunt that occurs in Nov. He plays HS football and if his team makes the playoffs there is a good chance he will not be able to hunt. Now we have the option of surrendering the tag in and keeping his points. Win win as far as I'm concerned.

About 6 years ago my sister drew a 5B rifle antelope tag. Two weeks before the season started she tore her ACL and a week later she had surgery. That tag went unused and she lost 13-14 points and all those years of applying.

When we went back to paper apps 7-8 years ago I accidentally put the wrong hunt number down. Got drawn for a hunt that could have easily been drawn with my loyalty and HS safety point. I had 7 points at the time. sure would have been nice to surrender the tag.

I look at point guard like insurance. I hate paying for it but it sure is nice to have when you need it.

Good luck to all that applied.
 
Sorry, just want to see if I'm reading this right? So a person with 20 points goes in with a person with zero points....and they then draw a zone that usually takes 10 points. Then, the 20 point holder backs out.....does the other guy get to keep his/her tag???
 
>Sorry, just want to see if
>I'm reading this right? So
>a person with 20 points
>goes in with a person
>with zero points....and they then
>draw a zone that usually
>takes 10 points. Then, the
>20 point holder backs out.....does
>the other guy get to
>keep his/her tag???


Yes. And the 20 point holder gets another point so they would 21 next year.
 
>>Sorry, just want to see if
>>I'm reading this right? So
>>a person with 20 points
>>goes in with a person
>>with zero points....and they then
>>draw a zone that usually
>>takes 10 points. Then, the
>>20 point holder backs out.....does
>>the other guy get to
>>keep his/her tag???
>
>
>Yes. And the 20 point holder
>gets another point so they
>would 21 next year.

WOW! The reason I asked was because there was a rumor that someone was auctioning his points off on E-bay. The offer was to go in on the winning bidders party application. Again, this was just a rumor and there is nothing on E-bay at the moment. However, this will certainly happen in one way or another...."points for sale1"
 
So if a high point holder was planning on waiting until next year to try to draw a tag anyway he might as well sell his points this year make a bunch of money and then return his tag apply again next year as planned
 
LAST EDITED ON May-26-16 AT 07:10PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-26-16 AT 07:09?PM (MST)

When it's time to put grandma or grandpa in a home and hinting is done, he/she could cash out their points with tags for two grandchildren in back to back years, not just one. Nice, but not so cool for the hunter slightly behind patiently waiting for the tag for many years, hoping to draw it before it's his/her turn to go into the home. That would take two top pool tags away from the public for one applicant.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-26-16 AT 10:03PM (MST)[p]What about the Folks that are one point shy of max points. How much do you think they would pay to go in with a max point holder? This is much more likely to happen if that max point holder knows he/she is not going to hunt that year, and would not loose their points, (in fact would still get another) I'm sure they wouldn't mind a few bucks to compensate them for all the years they have been putting in. Since it rounds up...that's a huge deal for the one less than max point Folks. How much point creep is this going to add?
 
Checked into this and found one interesting thing! I'll bet the commission didn't figure on the guy that listed his/her points on E-bay with the idea of bringing the winning bidders point average up. Was told the auctioned ended at $2,200.
Talk about a rule that is BEGGING for abuse! If you had a party of hunters, and every guy threw in several $100, you could certainly see how you could pull tags in some very good units most every year. As a seller, you would be STUPID not to sell your points the one time. How much would a "one less that max" point holder pay to go in with a max point holder?
I guess we can just watch the AZ classified for "POINTS for SALE!"
 
It is a loophole and one that i personally will take advantage of. My entire family gets puts in for every species and some don't hunt. I've setup that my kids will get premium hunts when I feel they are ready or I'll use the points for my personal hunts. Did I mention I drew another elk tag back to back. If it's legal then why not do it. I know many guys who play the point game.
 
Agreed that if it's not against the rules then why not take advantage of it. However you would have to admit that this is going to create a very lucrative "points market" and the average guy that cannot afford to pay will certainly be at a disadvantage. It will also result in some noticeable points creep as well. The idea about getting another point as if you were unsuccessful in the draw is the part that I believe leaves this so open to abuse. For the most part, isn't this supposed to be "luck of the draw"....not, "how much can you afford?"
 
>Agreed that if it's not against
>the rules then why not
>take advantage of it. However
>you would have to admit
>that this is going to
>create a very lucrative "points
>market" and the average guy
>that cannot afford to pay
>will certainly be at a
>disadvantage. It will also result
>in some noticeable points creep
>as well. The idea about
>getting another point as if
>you were unsuccessful in the
>draw is the part that
>I believe leaves this so
>open to abuse. For the
>most part, isn't this supposed
>to be "luck of the
>draw"....not, "how much can you
>afford?"

I agree with you 100%. It's sad that the good ole days are gone and it's turned into a money game. Unfortunately if you don't play the bonus pt game you will more than likely be waiting to hunt Az for a long time. I know a guy who has drawn an archery strip tag 3 years in a row and possibly again this year. Was it luck? No. It was playing the point game.
 
I spoke with Amber Munig at Game & Fish about all of this.

Yes, she said there is a loop hole, and yes a person could sell their application points one time.

Here is how I learned about this. A friend, who asked me NOT to identify him on this site; wife has 18 deer points. His son has 13 deer points.They want the son to get a late west side Kaibab deer tag.

Both bought into the POINT GUARD system which is really nothing more than a huge money generator for the Department disguised as a tag surrender program.

So she is applicant A, with the 18 points, he is applicant B with 13 points. Both are residents.

Together, they have 31 points right? The application is divided by two so they have collectively 15.5 points, which is rounded up to 16 points.

He knows that last year it took just 13 points to get into the 20% pass pool for that late, west side hunt. Again this is for residents. Different situation due to the 10% cap for non-residents.

Last year the max pool was 18 points. Two residents drew that tag with 18 points, 3 drew with 17 points. And so on.

Bottom line is that assuming the draw strategy stays the same or close to what it was last year, they should BOTH draw tags, right?

But she doesn't want to hunt on the Kaibab. She wants a Strip deer tag and there are currently just 4 residents with max points (now 19) while 17 resident have 18 points and 31 residents have 17 points.

So she turns in her tag, and gets her points back, plus one more for this year. The rule says she cannot share those points again, but who cares? Her son has drawn the tag he wants and she'll get what she wants in 2017.

In 2017 she will be guaranteed one of the 15 tags up for grabs for residents in Unit 13B.

So its a win-win for that family at a cost of just $10 to make it happen!

And if course, the Department makes some extra money!

Some more interesting facts. The guy who "sold his application points" on the Internet was completely legal! Nothing in the rule to prevent that!

I was told that currently there are number of "high profile guides" and others who have been doing this for years.

They find guys who have max points and they tell them that if they'll share their points,and they draw, they get a "free" hunt.

Perfectly legal to do that.

In my case, I have 17 bonus points, so if I don't draw this year, then next year, I could be one of those guys who could "sell" my points. Or I can apply with my lady friend who has not enough points to draw, but if we apply together, she would draw a late Kaibab tag.

Just have to see.

To late for this year, I applied by myself for 13B.

Oh well...

Don Martin
Arizona Wildlife Outfitters
 
The tag that is returned for points isnt refunded so in your example it costs the family $55 not $10. the crazy thing is that the G$F has not said what they do with that tag then. Maybe they will give it to a commissioner? maybe they will auction it?
 
I like the idea that if something comes up, you don't lose your points. However this rule goes WAY too far and turns this into a "points market!" VERY easy to close this loop hole...
#1 If you turn your tag back in, you keep your accumulated points but DO NOT gain an additional point.
#2. When applying as a party, a person may turn his/her tag back in. However, if the absents of that persons points results in the parties point average going down...then all must forfeit their tags.

This is a very simple and easy fix that would ensure that the draw stays fair and equitable. I'm sure the Folks with more dissposable income will be against this though.
 
This has been talked about and discussed and G&F meetings that last two + years. I'm afraid all these suggestions are too late. Rules have been made and are now being implemented.

This is a money thing for G&F. They know people are "gaming" the system and this is how they have decided to profit from it. IMO G&F has no intentions to stop it because they know it would be loss of income. Think of all the licenses and application fees that are being collected from people who are building points for people who are not necessarily hunters. If G&F stopped the practice they would lose money. They need money to run their dept.

I like the new rule and I will take advantage of it. I have always felt that people who have bought and paid for their points and accumulated them over the years, it is up them to do what they want with them. Who am I to tell someone what they can do with them or what they can't do with them? I think it is time to stop complaining and learn to use the rules to their advantage.

Good Luck to all those that applied.
 
>This has been talked about and
>discussed and G&F meetings that
>last two + years.
>I'm afraid all these suggestions
>are too late. Rules
>have been made and are
>now being implemented.
>
>This is a money thing for
>G&F. They know people
>are "gaming" the system and
>this is how they have
>decided to profit from it.
> IMO G&F has no
>intentions to stop it because
>they know it would be
>loss of income. Think
>of all the licenses and
>application fees that are being
>collected from people who are
>building points for people who
>are not necessarily hunters.
>If G&F stopped the practice
>they would lose money.
>They need money to run
>their dept.
>
>I like the new rule and
>I will take advantage of
>it. I have always
>felt that people who have
>bought and paid for their
>points and accumulated them over
>the years, it is up
>them to do what they
>want with them. Who
>am I to tell someone
>what they can do with
>them or what they can't
>do with them? I
>think it is time to
>stop complaining and learn to
>use the rules to their
>advantage.
>
>Good Luck to all those that
>applied.

Nobody is saying anything about people not being able to acquire points and then go in (average up) with someone. The thing screaming for abuse here is the part about turning a tag in and then getting an additional points as if you weren't in the draw. Well....YOU ALREADY WERE IN THE DRAW! In short, this not only protects someone but, in essence, it allows them to change their draw application AFTER the draw.
 
Easily remedied by making it available for single apps only, no party apps, which would be a valid option for a tag return program.
 
>Easily remedied by making it available
>for single apps only, no
>party apps, which would be
>a valid option for a
>tag return program.

^^^GREAT IDEA^^^
 
Every option you could think of and then some were discussed over and over at any number of meetings over the past two yrs. An enormous amount of time and effort went into this program and it's parameters. As it stands now NO changes are planned and the department is well aware of how it can be manipulated. You have two options you can use the system to your advantage or you can sit and complain as those around you benefit from it.....Your choice....If even a little thought was given to it the old system it could be manipulated to benefit you as well..
 
LAST EDITED ON Jun-08-16 AT 03:28PM (MST)[p]There are several options when you turn in your tag.
If you give your tag back to the department they have the choice to give it to the next person in line or not reissue the tag. There are several factors that will play into this. What tag you are turning in, How long before the start of the hunt is the tag turned in. Ect.....The department CANT pick and choose who gets the tag....

You can donate the tag to one of three org's that can use the tag for a disabled child or wounded warrior.

You will still get your points back regardless of what option you choose

At NO time can the department simply give the tag to whom they choose. It will go to the next person inline until they find a hunter who wants the tag or it will not be reissued.
 
>The rule says she
>cannot share those points again,
>but who cares? Her son
>has drawn the tag he
>wants and she'll get
>what she wants
>
>
>Don Martin
>Arizona Wildlife Outfitters


Don, is this statement correct? I believe she can "share" the points twice. She just can't use the point guard twice. Big difference and doubles the potential for abuse.

Rage
 

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