Population management... Is it working as is or is there a need for change?

OCHO

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So I have spent a few days out this year for Barbs in unit 32 and I have to say it seams harder to hunt then the OTC areas.

It has taken me a while to draw, but I have been on a few hunts for support. It sure seams like the tag allotment for barbs is sky high, especially considering the number has gone up this year. From 600 previously to 675.

I then see the Ibex management hunt has allocated 600 FM - IB tags to manage...

I have to say I scratch my head often at the number of tags given in many areas, for specific weapons and specifically when the numbers are not there.

Is it that typical to walk 10 - 12 miles a day and see under 5 sheep? Is there that many Ibex that we need to take out say 400, being not all 600 will kill?

Does unit 34 need 600 + archery tags? If so why?

Can someone explain why an opportunity hunt is only in areas that seam to not have a care for them 34 GMU? Why don't they have opportunity elk hunts in the Gila or 2b for deer? Oh what? They good areas receive the management and the others ehhh..Why do we allow high power riffle hunts in primitive units?


I feel like when the Barbs were OTC, there were more Barbs. When the deer was OTC there was more deer.

My theory is this. When you have a 13 deer tag for example you go in high hopes kill nice buck. 3 - 5 days in you don't see a buck, than old forky pops out you say, well I would like the meat I mean I spend $500 dollars on the trip and waited all year and pow!

Well before when it was OTC, you didn't see any deer in 13 what happen? You left and went where you thought there was deer... It kind of managed itself.

I can't say this is the answer but I sure know the management of the state and animals specifically deer just seams freaking ridiculous. And the management of the elk and BHS is top priority. why can't we implement the same practices on sheep as deer? Why don't we have wardens checking us as much as the gila and 2B do?



Unit 32 full of BLM that is land locked. I don't know I just can't believe how much hunting has changed and makes me sick...

Maybe I am off my rocker... Maybe I have a slanted view but I sure feel like if things don't change the hunting here will continue to go down hill

Can't imagine what will happen with antelope going to tags.com when ever you want one!

I don't need an easy hunt, I don't have to kill a giant to feel like the hunt was great and accomplished. But I sure don't want to have a camping trip either. Hope this makes sense!
 
I would like to see Barbary tags split up between different hunts at different times of the year.

100 Premium tags for a 7-10 days in Oct. another 200-225 tags later in say December maybe 10 day hunt and 300-350 tags for February. Spread the hunters out that way. Same number of tags. Something along these lines for the Barbs to spread out the hunters and make it not so crowded for February. I guess the idea of the month long hunt is that the hunters will spread out throughout the month. All I think it does is brings out the weekend warriors and keeps the sheep pressured onto the private throughout the entire hunt. That opening morning at first light can be money if youve done your research and beat everyone to your spot.
 
I agree. Barbary and deer hunting were both better when there were OTC tags.
For barbary in particular, my theory is that when they were OTC most people hunted the first weekend and that was it. If they didn't get one then there was always another chance next year. After that there were only a few people for the rest of the month.
Now people are not sure if they will draw another tag for years so when they finally draw a tag they spend more time and hunt more days.

The ibex depredation hunt this year is absolutely crazy. I don't even think there are 600 female or immature ibex left on the mountain. Numbers are way down from the past several years (which was their goal) and I do not think a depredation hunt of this magnitude is needed this year.

The way G&F estimates animal numbers on their surveys needs to be reexamined because they often seem to be way off. My brother was very involved with trying to get the elk model changed a few years ago and the biologists essentially were not interested at all in trying to improve their methods or even verify that their population model agreed with other methods.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-18 AT 08:39AM (MST)[p]Hunting was BETTER with OTC tags?? I think you guys are all off your meds :D.

30 or 40 years ago, maybe that was true.
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again.... It's a shame how NMGF rapes and Pillages your herds of exotics, and the tag numbers for most of Southern NM Deer are ridiculous.

Incompetence..... Makes me sick because I have hunted lots of these hunts before they started this garbage, and enjoyed great hunts. I won't even apply any more
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-18 AT 11:47AM (MST)[p]I agree, population management could use some work in our state. I don't like the fact that while hunting, especially exotics in our state, i see way more people then animals. I also don't like the fact that the quality has taken a hit over the last 15-20 years. I do like that NM is not on the point system, but i believe tags, especially rifle and muzzleloader could be cut. There are a lot of variables that affect our numbers. in the last 15-20 years our equipment has become a lot better, outfitters are everywhere, and the want to harvest big mature animals has become more popular. We would never shoot an animal with a bow beyond 50-60 yards in the early 2000's, hell we didn't even have range finders back then. Now guys are killing animals at crazy distances with archery gear, and rifle and muzzleloader hunting has become a long range sport. I know of, and have seen on tv the use of long range muzzleloaders where people are killing animals at 500-600 yards and beyond, that wasn't even doable for most people with a rifle not too long ago... So the prime units that are considered primative units, where no rifle hunts take place, for elk anyways, are now losing quality of animals because more game is being harvested. it was hard to get within 150 yards of a big mature bull and harvest one with a scopeless muzzleloader 20 years ago. now you can shoot one across a canyon 300-600 yards away with a remington ultimate and be done! also, they now have a youth hunt, then the first season, followed by the second season, then a late season. Same with deer... while we dont ever complain if we draw the tag, and we all go out and buy the latest and greatest equipment, myself included, we have to realize the impacts that this all has on our wildlife. maybe the only way to really solve all these issues to cut tags and increase cost?? I dont know! it's already become a rich mans sport, so people will pay the cost of the tag regardless of price, but like mentioned above, it would be nice to go out, see more game, bigger game, and less people in most units. im not against working hard to get away, and i've been successful doing that, but i also know that im not going to be young and in great shape forever, and I would love to continue to hunt and be successful for a long, long time!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-18 AT 03:17PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-18 AT 03:15?PM (MST)

The NMDGF does a lot better on Barbary management these days than, say, 10 or 15 years ago. At least they're not trying to completely extirpate the animals now. Having said that, I think the tag quotas are still too high, particularly for the units around Roswell. What good does it do to issue 600 tags when you can't access half the public sheep habitat in the unit?

I'm never sure what the management plan for ibex consists of. Periodically, they ramp up the FM/IM tag numbers. When I drew the OILT tag in '94, there were 1500-2000 animals in Floridas. That's a bunch, but apparently that's too many.

Oryx numbers had to be reduced substantially. No way around that. The original target was 1200-1500 animals; in the early 2000's the herd was over 5000. They got to be a nuisance to WSMR/HAFB operations, scaring the crap out of tourists on White Sands NM, and were spreading too far from their core range. So they ramped up the tag numbers, which was great while it lasted. I drew three oryx tags in five years 2000-2005.

Yeah, they issue a lot of deer tags down south. One of those "opportunity over quality" situations, I'm sure. Don't like the crowds? Apply for a different area with fewer tags.
 
It's not about the crowds it's about killing every legal animal cause A) there is not many mature animals. How about inprove the quality of hunt I don't see shooting every little buck or barb in this stat as opportunity! I'm thinking big picture and long term. How long do these opportunity hunts last till you wipe almost all the animals out?

Let's put an opportunity hunt for elk in the Gila... for elk


My point more so where is the management or biology in opportunity hunts and why don't they have opportunity hunts. Anyone who hunted My Taylor remembers how many elk used to be there. Couple cow hunts added with high power in a primitive are and now where are the elk there now? Almost ghost town in comparison to present.

Whether we agree on the number of tags is always debatable.


I feel like there were more sheep and deer before the draw was adopted based on my experiences in the hills.

Point is the number of most species are down and tag counts stay the same or go up which to throw a flag. I have seen some units have the number go down land that's awesome. Just think we are taking far to much time to adjust the tags if we adjust the tags and the population are suffering.

I can draw some gags every year and probably kill every year that's not my point with the topic or discussion.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-18 AT 05:25PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-18 AT 05:16?PM (MST)

The elk on Taylor are on predominately on private land these days. The public elk hunting used to be better over there, certainly, before the checkerboard swap. That's unfortunate, but I doubt if over-hunting has much to do with any of that.

"Opportunity over quality" is just responding to public desires. All game departments use that concept to one extent or another. The NMDGF isn't going to manage the whole state for quality. That is unrealistic. So they designate certain areas for more tags (like 13 or 30, for example) to give hunters more opportunity, even if the hunting's not that great. Actually, when the deer herd in 30 is healthy, the hunting's pretty good, no matter how many tags they issue (13 sucks for deer, regardless).

Yes, there were more animals in the field before the draw system started. Guess what? There were more mule deer all over 25 years ago. The species is in decline. That has nothing to do with the draw system. I've hunted deer in NM since before the draw. There were too damned many hunters in the field then, most of them drunk. If nothing else, the draw system seems to keep a lot of the riff-raff at home.

AFAIC, the state-wide OTC Barbary hunting plan was stupid, and was nothing more than the Department's desire (at the time) to rid itself of the chore of managing the animal. At least now they're trying to manage things by limiting the tags in the areas with the most sheep. Again, there were probably more sheep around 20 years ago, but the decline in sheep numbers (in the northern part of state, at least) isn't a result of over-hunting, the draw system, or anything like that.

No game department is perfect, but NM isn't much different than most western states, and is probably better than most.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-18 AT 07:50PM (MST)[p]So I guess to my point... Where is the management? Elk numbers continue to grow, deer go down. Probably more money invested in growing BHS than all animals combined.

Why are deer tags the cheapest in the state in comparison to stink pigs, antelope and every animal but turkeys?

My point with Mt Taylor is not long ago there was lots of elk (before a few years of high power rifle hunting in primitive unit) wiping out elk numbers. It has not recovered and may not. Why is it ok to use rifle for deer in primitive areas but not for elk? Like 13? Happens to be 13 had 500 tags both riffle season for a long time... So these are just some small points but very relatable to the G & F.

This is directly related to the G & F and has a lot to do with them creating a hunt like those cow hunts with riffle in 9. now its gone and so are the elk... HMMM

I know they are not perfect but don't we think they can stick to their own rules for starters? Like no high power in primitive areas?

what is the point of counting deer in an area if its used for opportunity?


So lastly Primal Beef. Why don't we have opportunity hunts in the good units? 2B & 2C or 16A or 16D? I mean we can't even hunt Barbs in some units due to BHS. So much to protect certain animals and none for the others.


Fact is I the past is the past but I would like to see some changes implemented is all. I won't dwell on the past anymore but I would surely love to see some management improvements and rethinking weapons for certain units for certain animals.

Game & Fish may do their best given politics but it's going down more than up. Hope to see some change!
 
I'm not sure what everyone's concern is with NMDGF, but I've been in NM for 7 years and can find a trophy example of every game animal the state offers if I am fortunate enough to draw a tag and hunt hard enough. The only disappointment I see is the road hunters, ATVs, trash, poaching, groups claiming areas weeks in advance of actual hunts & a huge issue with public land access. I have to agree though that as time goes on it will get harder for me to access the areas that have struck me with awe and I may change my tune, but until then it is uncomfortably alot of boot time.
 
"The elk on Taylor are on predominately on private land these days. The public elk hunting used to be better over there, certainly, before the checkerboard swap. That's unfortunate, but I doubt if over-hunting has much to do with any of that."

The lack of elk is completely because of the overhunting, mainly cows. The checkerboard swap had nothing to do with it. G&F is totally responsible for ruining unit 9.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-18 AT 11:15AM (MST)[p]They used to have "opportunity" hunts in Unit 2, Ocho. It was called "Over-the-Counter Tags". That program is over-with, thank goodness. Why? Refer to my previous comment on "too many drunk hunters in the field" :D.

Units currently being managed for quality are done so for valid reasons. If they did opportunity hunts in the units you've suggested, they wouldn't be quality areas for very long.

No, we shouldn't be hunting Barbary sheep in BHS areas. For one thing, why would you want to? Are there realistically huntable populations of Barbary on the BHS ranges? (I sort of doubt that, for several reasons) For another, the DGF doesn't want a bunch of nit-brained Barbary hunters (most of whom will shoot anything with horns) blasting away at the BHS that they've spent millions on (which is exactly what would happen). Don't think the few lucky BHS tag holders would appreciate it, either.
 
>
>The lack of elk is completely
>because of the overhunting, mainly
>cows. The checkerboard swap
>had nothing to do with
>it. G&F is totally
>responsible for ruining unit 9.
>

The land swap is more of a time-line thing. The hunting was indeed better before the swap, even if it didn't impact things directly.

You guys are probably right about the cow tag deal over there. I stand corrected.
 
I just wanna ask one question. Do we consider nm muzz seasons to be primitive? Maybe the few restricted hunts.
 
No muzzleloader hunts are not primitive. there are a few units that are primitive i believe, but overall, not all muzzleloader hunts in NM are considered primitive.
 
I say semi-primitive. You have one shot at ~200-250 yards max. I'd much rather have another 100-200 yards as an option with my rifle as well as quick follow-up shots.
 
Does anyone know if staff from NMDGF monitor this forum? It seems to be the policy of a number of departments of fish and game to discourage staff from posting or responding on hunting forums, but I have seen it occasionally and it sure is nice to get the sense that someone at the local DGF is paying attention and actually cares enough to explain the reasoning behind regulations.
 

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