Why point restrictions are dumb....

elks96 · Aug 12, 2017

I really think people do not understand the implications of point restrictions. I still ask how forcing hunters to shoot only better bucks will lead to better bucks? In the picture below is a great example. In this unit there are all sorts of mature bucks with crappy genetics. Lots of little bucks with good genetics and an occasional mature buck with great genes.

Due to point restrictions a few of the largest bucks in this area are off limits. Actually I have 6 or 7 that are definitely older more mature bucks that will not be legal to shoot. This is just one example. This first pic was the first time I saw this buck. He was trotting away, everything about him was great. Good frame, large body etc. But then in the second shot he stopped to look back. Notice he is huge in the body. Since I always look for big bodied mature bucks, he would definitely be one of my top pics.

Instead due to point restrictions he will be passed on. On the flip side the little bastard running with him is 100% legal and will likely get hammered opening morning. Leaving the huge 2 to breed...

Deerlove · Aug 12, 2017

I think pt restrictions work, but need to be removed after 2 or 3 years.

kilbuc · Aug 12, 2017

Point restrictions can work but only for a couple years(as stated above).

As a long term management strategy it is counter productive. Selects for lower point classes.

from the "Heartland of Wyoming"

jm77 · Aug 12, 2017

If it's a 3pt restriction either buck is legal.

You need to brush up on your genetics by the way. Momma has as much or more to do with antlers than papa.

RoadlessHunter · Aug 12, 2017

Right from the 2017 Wyoming Hunting regulations.

?Point? means any protrusion from an antler one (1) inch
or more in length.

That would mean that a brow tine counts.

I have also herd that youth can still shoot any buck. I am not sure on that one.

Has anyone ask the F&G about youth shooting any buck in 3 point or better units?

jm77 · Aug 12, 2017

LAST EDITED ON Aug-12-17 AT 09:57PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-12-17 AT 09:53?PM (MST)

>Has anyone ask the F&G about
>youth shooting any buck in
>3 point or better units?
>

Yes they can, in fact any deer, except in a specie specific season(i.e. whitetail only).

elks96 · Aug 13, 2017

LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-17 AT 02:34PM (MST)[p]Well if it only took 3 in this unit I would not complain. Sadly it takes 1 more and since I am archery hunting any mature buck would be my target. I have another buck over 30 wide that is a massive clean 3 and around 5 or 6 other mature bucks that may not make the cut. All are 3 on 1 side. I just have not close enough to see a little kicker.

It is just a dumb rule that will make sure we have plenty of little bucks soon.

Needless to say there is not a lack of mature bucks in this unit, it is harder to find a good 4 than it is to find a 4+ year old buck.

My daughter turns 12 next year and she will our shooter for everything.

Really just does not make sense. There is not a lack of mature bucks in the area just a lack of hunters willing to ditch the vehicle to find them.

jm77 · Aug 13, 2017

LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-17 AT 04:08PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-17 AT 04:07?PM (MST)

>LAST EDITED ON Aug-13-17
>AT 02:34?PM (MST)
>
>Well if it only took 3
>in this unit I would
>not complain. Sadly it takes
>1 more and since I
>am archery hunting any mature
>buck would be my target.
>I have another buck over
>30 wide that is a
>massive clean 3 and around
>5 or 6 other mature
>bucks that may not make
>the cut. All are 3
>on 1 side. I just
>have not close enough to
>see a little kicker.
>
>It is just a dumb rule
>that will make sure we
>have plenty of little bucks
>soon.
>
>Needless to say there is not
>a lack of mature bucks
>in this unit, it is
>harder to find a good
>4 than it is to
>find a 4+ year old
>buck.
>
>My daughter turns 12 next year
>and she will our shooter
>for everything.
>
>Really just does not make sense.
>There is not a lack
>of mature bucks in the
>area just a lack of
>hunters willing to ditch the
>vehicle to find them.

How many years have they run the 4pt rule consecutively in this area elks?

I think I know: one. 2013 3pt or better, 2014,15 & 16 antlered and now 2017 4pt or better. Just tell me where you got a biology degree that says this will hurt the quality of the deer in this area?

jims · Aug 14, 2017

I know of at least 1 Wyo unit that had a 4 pt or better restriction for years. Years later after getting rid of the reg there are still gobs of giant 3 x 3's running around. In fact, I would say it's a challenge finding 4x4's in that particular limited quota unit.

There is no doubt in my mind that 3 pt or better...especially for multiple years does more harm to the genetics than good! It may allow some of the forks and 3x3's to live but overall you will likely see more and more whopper 2x2's and 3x3's in the herd the longer the restriction is in place.

Colo had 3 pt or better regs for a number of years. Lots of forked horn bucks were left on the ground to rot..I found 2 of them! I'm not a fan of pt restrictions for muley bucks. It may work for elk but not for deer!

jm77 · Aug 14, 2017

>I know of at least 1
>Wyo unit that had a
>4 pt or better restriction
>for years. Years later
>after getting rid of the
>reg there are still gobs
>of giant 3 x 3's
>running around. In fact,
>I would say it's a
>challenge finding 4x4's in that
>particular limited quota unit.
>
>There is no doubt in my
>mind that 3 pt or
>better...especially for multiple years does
>more harm to the genetics
>than good! It may
>allow some of the forks
>and 3x3's to live but
>overall you will likely see
>more and more whopper 2x2's
>and 3x3's in the herd
>the longer the restriction is
>in place.
>
>Colo had 3 pt or better
>regs for a number of
>years. Lots of forked
>horn bucks were left on
>the ground to rot..I found
>2 of them! I'm
>not a fan of pt
>restrictions for muley bucks.
>It may work for elk
>but not for deer!

I would agree about more than two years of 4 pt restriction, but not 3 pt. My mule deer group allowed 3 pt to go four years. 3 pt restriction by all account saves only the yearlings. Our buck/doe ratio is now over special management goals and bucks over 180 are being harvested again. This year we are back to "antlered only" season and I am seeing lots of 4x4 and 5x5 bucks. It is a myth that these point restrictions hurt genetics. At least I know of no proof to the contrary. Do you?

ElmerFudd · Aug 14, 2017

I wonder how many bucks that don't meet the point restrictions get shot and left to rot?

mmwb · Aug 14, 2017

I expect a few get shot and left, but I doubt it is many. Probably more wounded and not found that die.

jm77 · Aug 14, 2017

>I wonder how many bucks that
>don't meet the point restrictions
>get shot and left to
>rot?

I doubt very many. I wonder how many mule deer get shot and left to rot during whitetail only season? Or how many spike deer killed on antlerless tags?

If we managed deer based on this logic (the wrong animal may be killed by a hunter who doesn't know his target) we should just make all seasons "any deer".

nripepi · Aug 14, 2017

You need age restrictions, not point restrictions! Somehow you need to let the yearlings walk if you want to have a consistent older age class deer. Either point restrctionst or reduce tags significantly so they live. I am more in the favor of reducing tag numbers, but I think point restrictions could work if you say 3 up and don't worry about brow tines. Then you only have to deal with the big 2X2s with respect to breeding and there are a lot less big 2X2s then big 3X3s without brows.

jims · Aug 14, 2017

I'm trying to make sense of what benefit there would be to a 3 pt or better restriction. You are saying that yearling bucks will not get shot due to this restriction. What about the bucks with 3+ pts?

If hunter success is say 50% in a unit will success remain at 50% once there is a 3 pt restriction? If the number of hunters and success remains the same at 50% all of the bucks harvested will be 3+ pts rather than a mix of forks plus 3+ pts. In units that have fairly high harvest success I would expect the same number of bucks would get harvested regardless of pt restrictions. I would expect the 3 pt or better requirement would put more pressure on older age class bucks.

If the intention is to increase buck:doe ratios and quality/quantity of bucks I would expect the simplest way to do this would be to decrease tags and allow more bucks to survive!

Homer · Aug 14, 2017

lol....to this whole thread.

junior · Aug 14, 2017

In a perfect world. Cut tags, then have a seperate management hunt.

jims · Aug 14, 2017

Amen to you Junior! Take a look at what the Henry's in Utah is producing with limited tags plus management buck tags!

jm77 · Aug 14, 2017

Giant bucks come out of general areas every year in Wyoming, including those that have or have had point restrictions. And you know what's great about it? I get to hunt every year!

letmgetbig · Aug 14, 2017

In the photos above, I see 2 young bucks. They don't look like they will ever be 200 inchers or even 180. But they are young and may surprise me. The bigger 2 point is not mature probably a 3 year old. He is only 20 inches wide and just over 20 inches tall. He may or may not always be a 2 point. As the big Bucks get fewer (and they are getting fewer) there will be more pressure put on G&F to make changes. Hunters can start practicing conservation by passing young bucks, or tags will be cut and you can lose hunting opportunity. This is unfortunately the road we are headed down.

junior · Aug 15, 2017

Amen to you Junior! Take a look at what the Henry's in Utah is producing with limited tags plus management buck tags!

Not only is this a win for genetics, but a new distribution of resources, where more tags can be allocated for management. Maybe even more funding for G&f? The sky's the limit? This is where the 4 point restriction can shine?

huntfishall1 · Aug 15, 2017

LAST EDITED ON Aug-15-17 AT 06:19AM (MST)[p]>I'm trying to make sense of
>what benefit there would be
>to a 3 pt or
>better restriction. You are
>saying that yearling bucks will
>not get shot due to
>this restriction. What about
>the bucks with 3+ pts?
>
>
>If hunter success is say 50%
>in a unit will success
>remain at 50% once there
>is a 3 pt restriction?
> If the number of
>hunters and success remains the
>same at 50% all of
>the bucks harvested will be
>3+ pts rather than a
>mix of forks plus 3+
>pts. In units that
>have fairly high harvest success
>I would expect the same
>number of bucks would get
>harvested regardless of pt restrictions.
> I would expect the
>3 pt or better requirement
>would put more pressure on
>older age class bucks.
>
>If the intention is to increase
>buck:doe ratios and quality/quantity of
>bucks I would expect the
>simplest way to do this
>would be to decrease tags
>and allow more bucks to
>survive!

Decreasing tags would be one way to do it. But most hunters want opportunity, plus the game dept wants their revenue so it difficult to change general/OTC units to limited.

One thing to factor into the 3+ pt rule is that yearling bucks are not the smartest creatures, which makes them susceptible to an easy harvest by hunters each fall. Once they reach 2.5 years and older they often become a different creature from a behavioral standpoint and as a result can often be harder for hunters to harvest. Hence the reason jm77 noted they are now seeing trophy 180 plus bucks in areas where the young deer were once protected by the point Restrictions for a number of years. And is proof the restrictions can work.

mulecreek · Aug 15, 2017

>Giant bucks come out of general
>areas every year in Wyoming,
>including those that have or
>have had point restrictions. And
>you know what's great about
>it? I get to hunt
>every year!

Jeff,

You are completely missing the upside of the Henry Mnt model of deer management. Waiting 40 years to get a tag for a unit that any 20 person team of uncles, aunts, cousins and in-laws can glass up a 200" buck in weekend of spotting, makes the tag so much better. When you get a tag every year you don't really appreciate it. When you wait a lifetime, well you really have something there. That kind of wait makes you run out and get a new camper, side-by-side, spotter, LR rifle, the works. While you are waiting for the tag you could always get a tag in Wyomi.., well some other state every 6 years.

We could have an auction for a Wyoming Range tag. Maybe have an Expo in Casper. Maybe use that money raised from that tag to build an island in the middle of Glendo. Stick some deer on it, and then auction that tag. There is no limit to the number of auction tags you could generate. But no, you want to hunt every year for them dinky little 180" bucks. You cant sell a writeup about a buck like that to Muley Crazy. Get with the game, man!

jm77 · Aug 15, 2017

>>Giant bucks come out of general
>>areas every year in Wyoming,
>>including those that have or
>>have had point restrictions. And
>>you know what's great about
>>it? I get to hunt
>>every year!
>
>Jeff,
>
>You are completely missing the upside
>of the Henry Mnt model
>of deer management. Waiting
>40 years to get a
>tag for a unit that
>any 20 person team of
>uncles, aunts, cousins and in-laws
>can glass up a 200"
>buck in weekend of spotting,
>makes the tag so much
>better. When you get
>a tag every year you
>don't really appreciate it.
>When you wait a lifetime,
>well you really have something
>there. That kind of
>wait makes you run out
>and get a new camper,
>side-by-side, spotter, LR rifle, the
>works. While you are
>waiting for the tag you
>could always get a tag
>in Wyomi.., well some other
>state every 6 years.
>
>We could have an auction for
>a Wyoming Range tag.
>Maybe have an Expo in
>Casper. Maybe use that
>money raised from that tag
>to build an island in
>the middle of Glendo.
>Stick some deer on it,
>and then auction that tag.
> There is no limit
>to the number of auction
>tags you could generate.
>But no, you want to
>hunt every year for them
>dinky little 180" bucks.
>You cant sell a writeup
>about a buck like that
>to Muley Crazy. Get
>with the game, man!

^^^^HA!

junior · Aug 15, 2017

I'm didn't think the 9 to 5 guy's would get it.

elks96 · Aug 15, 2017

>In the photos above, I see
>2 young bucks. They don't
>look like they will ever
>be 200 inchers or even
>180. But they are young
>and may surprise me. The
>bigger 2 point is not
>mature probably a 3 year
>old. He is only 20
>inches wide and just over
>20 inches tall. He may
>or may not always be
>a 2 point. As the
>big Bucks get fewer (and
>they are getting fewer) there
>will be more pressure put
>on G&F to make changes.
>Hunters can start practicing conservation
>by passing young bucks, or
>tags will be cut and
>you can lose hunting opportunity.
>This is unfortunately the road
>we are headed down. That big 2 point is at least 4 years old as I have seen him the last the last 2 plus this. He was even bigger antlered last year. His body size really is big and when he is next to that other little buck who happens to make the point rule he is significantly heavier and bigger... I have no doubt he is older 3. I have another buck that is 3 years on trail cameras and 2 point with crooked points. In 3 years he has added maybe 12 inches of total antler...

elks96 · Aug 15, 2017

I just really question why? I do not see how this will produce the results people want. I have hunted these units 4 years prior this being my 5th. In this area I see and find more buck over 180 than I have ever seen in Colorado units where NR take 10+ years to draw. The biggest issue for this area is excessive atv access and an almost impossible task of getting away from the ATV masses. If they really wanted to improve this area, get some work done with the BLM, create closures, make some habitat section where there are 3-10 square miles of no vehicle access. As it is right now there is almost no area where a person can get more that a mile from a road, and even when you do you typically find some form of illegal cross country travel.

I guess my daughter will have to smoke this buck next year so we can get his age.