The Wiley ways of one greedy Outfitter

I felt the need to share some information in response to Rob Wiley's article Mule Deer crisis in Western Wyoming since he won't post my comments on his website! I would love to know where he is coming up with his 10/100 buck to doe ratio? I just finished reviewing the G&F counts from last month and we are currently at 29/100 not 10/100 that Rob is claiming. I seriously doubt he did an aerial survey to come up with his number. While the overall ratio is lower than it has been for several years I think most of us expected that it would be after this last winter. One of the main reasons why the number is lower is because of the loss of the majority of our fawns last winter. I was told on counts after an average winter that you can expect to count 10 yearling bucks per 100 does, this year they counted 4/100 which hurts the overall buck to doe ratio. Just to give everyone an idea where the ratio was before this last winter, in 2016 it was 36/100, in 2015 it was 39/100. The winter of 2011-2012 was another tough winter and the counts in 2012 revealed a 30/100 ratio which was close to what they counted this year. The following years after that they seen some of the highest buck to doe ratios that we have seen in a while in the low 40's/100. The deer herd rebounded and came back and they will come back again from this last bad winter. Will the herd ever reach their original numbers from the glory days and the answer is no and going to limited quota won't even allow that to happen. There has been way to much winter range lost here in the last 30 years among other factors to ever return this herd to what it used to be. We can't control Mother Nature and there will continue to be big die offs in the years to come. From talking with G&Fand going to the meetings the deer herd has been stable for a while now, excluding these bad winters. I know some of you don't like a buck/doe ratio to determine how the deer herd is doing. The G&F will be conducting another count this year in February in attempt to try and grid the majority of the winter ranges to get a better idea on what the overall population is at now. This is the first time they have done this type of count and I was told it was going to require 140 hrs of flight time and around $140,000 in cost. While it's impossible to count every deer out there I think it will give them a better idea if the models they use now are accurately representing the overall population of this herd.
The hunt was tough last year and I think most of us expected that after last winter. When your deer herd drops from 40,000 to 20,000 animals in a year we are going to definitely notice that. I don't think because of this we should jump on the limited quota train that Rob would like everyone to get on, the deer herd will come back to what it's been the last 10 or more years. After looking at the bucks Non-Typical Outfitters harvested last year it became apparent to me that there is no way Rob can continue to charge $7,400.00 for a 5 day deer hunt and produce those kind of results. I am not saying they didn't take some good bucks, it was just no where close to what they normally harvest. I know of several bucks that were taken by resident hunters that NTO was after, one of them being a 230+ slug. Bottom line with his entire motive of writing this article...he wants less of the hardcore deer hunters pursuing "his bucks". At one point in his article he mentions how everyone is asking him why he is willing to jeopardize his business to do this. Give me a freaking break, residents going to a limited quota will not affect his business at all. He is booked right now 3 years out and I guarantee you the majority of those hunters are non-resident. He wants less competition from resident hunters so he can have it all to himself keeping him in the spotlight for one of the top Mule deer guides in the nation. I also think now that he can't fly his plane after August 1st locating all these big bucks that are still in the red is also affecting his ability to locate enough big bucks for all of his clients and for that I would like to thank our G&F commission for making that happen!
I think the G&F and other groups are doing a lot of good things right now and gathering a lot of data that will help in managing this deer herd in the future and as long as it continues to be stable I am totally against going to a limited quota. I want my kids to have the same opportunity's that I have had, we go to a limited quota and with point creep before long they might get a deer tag every 5 years or maybe more. With that being said I know at some point we will need to eventually go to a limited quota with the human population continuing to grow. Wyoming's population however has actually gone down here recently. I think we will all know when the time to go to a limited quota will be and I think it should happen when it's a general consensus with the majority, not when an outfitter and a few out of staters want to do it. I just finished typing my letter up to send to our commissioners and I hope everyone takes some time to do the same.

You make some good points and I don't have any information that contradicts you.

But purely from a rational capitalist standpoint what is Rob or anyone in his business doing illegal ? or even unethical for that matter. you have your ax to grind he has his.

Unless you're going to freak out at the oil and gas industry screwing up public hunting and wintering grounds with the same passion this seems like selective outrage to me. business and public interests often are at odds, the outfitters are not crooked nor are they villains. they're businessmen doing what businessmen do.

You have every right to oppose their agenda and if you muster enough political might you will prevail. if you don't welcome to capitalist America this is how we roll.








Stay Thirsty My Friends

LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-18 AT 05:04PM (MST)[p]You make some good
>points and I don't have
>any information that contradicts you.
> But purely from a rational
>capitalist standpoint what is Rob
>or anyone in his business
>doing illegal ? or
>even unethical for that matter.
> you have your ax
>to grind he has his.
>Unless you're going to freak out
>at the oil and gas
>industry screwing up public hunting
>and wintering grounds with
>the same passion this seems
>like selective outrage to me.
> business and public
>interests often are at odds,
> the outfitters are not
>crooked nor are they
>villains. they're businessmen doing
>what businessmen do.
> You have every right to
>oppose their agenda and if
>you muster enough political might
>you will prevail.
>if you don't welcome to
>capitalist America this is how
>we roll.
>Stay Thirsty My Friends


***Nowhere above did I read the OP say that Robb is doing anything illegal! I do wonder if he's still flying some after 8/1 and if he's dumb enough to do that he should be caught and fined just like anyone else violating the law.

Yes, he's a businessman first and his bottom line is all he's looking at, and his BS about even shutting his business down for the betterment of the herd where he lives and hunts was just that, pure BS!!! Not a single thing he suggested in his BS blog had anything to do with him helping the herd, but rather cutting down the number of hunters that are in competition with him in the hunt area he outfits in! He charges way more than twice what I paid another reputable outfitter for a 5 day horseback hunt in G in 2015 and it's now starting to bite him in the azz when he can't produce the type of bucks that all of his clients that are booked through 2020 are paying him for!

He is ready to give up his business lmfao! BIG BOLD LETTERS RIGHT on his sight "booking clients for 2021" is he gonna return all his clients money that's paid for the next 3 years? Dude dont give a ##### about the deer herd when he is booked for 3-4 years! I'm calling your bluff give your business up return all the client money and help the herd out!

I think its been long over due since we cut non ressy tags in G and H.

Its either that or lets make all of G and H wilderness!

#liveawesome


《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》

>I think its been long over
>due since we cut non
>ressy tags in G and
>H.
>
>Its either that or lets make
>all of G and H
>wilderness!
>
>#liveawesome
>
>
>《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》


The cuts to NR tags didn't do anything to ease the pressure that many think G and H have and you know it, but you constantly come on this site to stir the pot no matter what is being discussed on a thread. Get a life!

LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-18 AT 08:30PM (MST)[p]I think it would be prudent to listen to the last commission meeting presentation on the Wyoming Range Mule Deer.

I trust Kevin Monteith more than Rob Wiley, by a landslide.

I don't see a biological reason to go to LQ deer anywhere right now, none.

As long as buck to doe ratios are maintained and the population goes back on the upswing, no reason to hit the panic button.

Wiley is just using one bad year to justify his lame position of limiting Residents and to force his LQ scheme. About as low budget of an agenda as a person could have...and what I've come to expect from outfitters.

He's going to have a tough sell...and IMO, wont get there.

The point is enough bashing legally operating outfitters they have every right to conduct business . find another scapegoat.

Where else is there still an enduring well known high quality mule deer unit where residents have unlimited tags ? answer this and you might find the true answer to your mystery.








Stay Thirsty My Friends

LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-18 AT 09:05PM (MST)[p]Where else is there a state that has a high mule deer population and less than 600K people living in it?

Answer this and you might find the true answer to your mystery.

>>I think its been long over
>>due since we cut non
>>ressy tags in G and
>>H.
>>
>>Its either that or lets make
>>all of G and H
>>wilderness!
>>
>>#liveawesome
>>
>>
>>《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
>
>
>The cuts to NR tags didn't
>do anything to ease the
>pressure that many think G
>and H have and you
>know it, but you constantly
>come on this site to
>stir the pot no matter
>what is being discussed on
>a thread. Get a
>life!

Did you hunt G or H last fall? No you did not. And the tag cuts did ease the pressure. Lets do another round!

You're knocking on 10k worth of posts. A little bit of the pot calling the kettle black. I was thinking of you today when I parked off the side of the interstate to go hunting. Hahahhahahhaa

《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》

>>>I think its been long over
>>>due since we cut non
>>>ressy tags in G and
>>>H.
>>>
>>>Its either that or lets make
>>>all of G and H
>>>wilderness!
>>>
>>>#liveawesome
>>>
>>>
>>>《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
>>
>>
>>The cuts to NR tags didn't
>>do anything to ease the
>>pressure that many think G
>>and H have and you
>>know it, but you constantly
>>come on this site to
>>stir the pot no matter
>>what is being discussed on
>>a thread. Get a
>>life!
>
>Did you hunt G or H
>last fall? No you did
>not. And the tag
>cuts did ease the pressure.
> Lets do another round!
>
>
>You're knocking on 10k worth of
>posts. A little bit
>of the pot calling the
>kettle black. I was
>thinking of you today when
>I parked off the side
>of the interstate to go
>hunting. Hahahhahahhaa
>
>《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》

First off, you have no idea where I hunted or where I spent my time scouting last season while I was out there from late August until the end of October, so cut the chit like you're all knowing!

Second, WTF does my post count have to do with anything?!!!

Third, ever since you started posting on this Forum about all you've done is post sarcastic BS to other members no matter what the thread is about and this thread is a good example, especially the last stupid statement about parking along the Interstate, because it was not a hahaha, but rather a comment that must mean you violate the signs along every one of them that states it is only allowed in an emergency situation! Now, as I stated earlier---GET A LIFE!!!

>>>>I think its been long over
>>>>due since we cut non
>>>>ressy tags in G and
>>>>H.
>>>>
>>>>Its either that or lets make
>>>>all of G and H
>>>>wilderness!
>>>>
>>>>#liveawesome
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
>>>
>>>
>>>The cuts to NR tags didn't
>>>do anything to ease the
>>>pressure that many think G
>>>and H have and you
>>>know it, but you constantly
>>>come on this site to
>>>stir the pot no matter
>>>what is being discussed on
>>>a thread. Get a
>>>life!
>>
>>Did you hunt G or H
>>last fall? No you did
>>not. And the tag
>>cuts did ease the pressure.
>> Lets do another round!
>>
>>
>>You're knocking on 10k worth of
>>posts. A little bit
>>of the pot calling the
>>kettle black. I was
>>thinking of you today when
>>I parked off the side
>>of the interstate to go
>>hunting. Hahahhahahhaa
>>
>>《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
>
>First off, you have no idea
>where I hunted or where
>I spent my time scouting
>last season while I was
>out there from late August
>until the end of October,
>so cut the chit like
>you're all knowing!
>
>Second, WTF does my post count
>have to do with anything?!!!
>
>
>Third, ever since you started posting
>on this Forum about all
>you've done is post sarcastic
>BS to other members no
>matter what the thread is
>about and this thread is
>a good example, especially the
>last stupid statement about parking
>along the Interstate, because it
>was not a hahaha, but
>rather a comment that must
>mean you violate the signs
>along every one of them
>that states it is only
>allowed in an emergency situation!
> Now, as I stated
>earlier---GET A LIFE!!!

Actually I do know where you hunt. And you didnt hunt G or H. And if you do you would hire a guide anyhow. Hahahaha. Calm down. Lets be reasonable here. You would love for Robb to hold your hand...

《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》

That was a terrific first post.

Ocho is correct he's doing nothing illegal. But that's where it ends. And legality is the lowest bar on the ladder. I read his post and the second he dropped religion into business you could see the kind of guy he is. And bet your azz if he will try and interject religion to make a dollar killing things, he will have zero problem greasing palms.

This is always the issue with guiding public land. Its not enough that WE the landowners are gracious enough to allow him to run a business on OUR land. He then decides that its the LANDOWNERS fault his inflated promises aren't met.

Do you think if he was guiding private land he would try to lock out the landowner?

If you think about what he is calling for from the perspective of YOU owning the land, hes got sack.

Somewhere the public needs to remind these types of guys that their entire business is contingent on US, the landowner allowing them to exist. Not the other way around.

Great first post!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-18 AT 09:09AM (MST)[p]>Actually I do know where you
>hunt. And you didnt
>hunt G or H.
>And if you do you
>would hire a guide anyhow.
> Hahahaha. Calm down.
>Lets be reasonable here.
>You would love for Robb
>to hold your hand...
>
>《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》


If you're such a clairvoyant, please tell us all on here EXACTLY where I hunt?! FYI I've only been on two guided hunts in 65 years of hunting and everything else was DIY and the only reason for the two guided hunts was to get up into great country on horses that I don't own. Calm down my azz! Your tone and message in every post you makes sucks and it gets old quickly for most of use here who are trying to have an adult conversation! PS: Robb can also kiss my azz with the greedy BS that he puts out!

>That was a terrific first post.
>
>
>Ocho is correct he's doing nothing
>illegal. But that's where
>it ends. And legality
>is the lowest bar on
>the ladder. I read
>his post and the second
>he dropped religion into business
>you could see the kind
>of guy he is.
>And bet your azz if
>he will try and interject
>religion to make a dollar
>killing things, he will have
>zero problem greasing palms.
>
>This is always the issue with
>guiding public land. Its
>not enough that WE the
>landowners are gracious enough to
>allow him to run a
>business on OUR land.
>He then decides that its
>the LANDOWNERS fault his inflated
>promises aren't met.
>
>Do you think if he was
>guiding private land he would
>try to lock out the
>landowner?
>
>If you think about what he
>is calling for from the
>perspective of YOU owning the
>land, hes got sack.
>
>Somewhere the public needs to remind
>these types of guys that
>their entire business is contingent
>on US, the landowner allowing
>them to exist. Not
>the other way around.
>
>Great first post!
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Yes, I agree 100% that the first post put up by the OP was excellent, as was yours here that was right on the money!

Most guys would be in the same boat as Rob if it was their way to make a living. Now it up to the rest to say H#ll no and try and change what he wanting to do to OUR land in G & H.
Because it is all our rights to hunt,fish hike,birdwatch,camp on that land we pay taxes on.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]

How about we make it a draw for residents, that would surely ease the pressure and make controlling numbers easy? I have never understood why it's OTC for residents and a draw for non residents, where else is this the case?

> The point is enough
>bashing legally operating outfitters
>they have every right to
>conduct business . find
>another scapegoat.
>
> Where else is there still
>an enduring well known
> high quality mule deer
>unit where residents have
>unlimited tags ? answer
>this and you might find
>the true answer to your
>mystery.

I never once said that they don't have the right to do what they are doing, but when they start trying to take my kids opportunities away and something that I love doing just for their personal benefit is when it becomes a big problem for me. Do I like competing against them and hunting the same country...hell no! Most Outfitters are good at what they do and I have accepted the fact they will always be around. I have never complained to the G&F, commissioners or Forest service or anyone saying we need to eliminate half the outfitters nor have I brought up any other issues with them. I figured if we could all play nice in the sandbox together we could stay out of each other's business. I am definitely not going to sit back and try and watch him get away with this crap! He wouldn't post my comments on his website and I was completely professional like others who have commented as well, he doesn't want any comments on there that contradict what his own personal agenda is which is chicken $&!?...so that's why I hopped on this forum and others to hopefully make people more aware on what he is trying to do. We no doubt have it good here in Wyoming to be able to have a quality hunt every year. This is one of the main reasons why I live here, I definitely don't live here for the winters. Thanks hossblur and topgun for your comments on the first post!

>How about we make it a
>draw for residents, that would
>surely ease the pressure and
>make controlling numbers easy? I
>have never understood why it's
>OTC for residents and a
>draw for non residents, where
>else is this the case?
>

All the Regions for NRs are by draw and are a general tag OTC for residents, except for the LQ units within those Regions that have to be drawn by both.

>How about we make it a
>draw for residents, that would
>surely ease the pressure and
>make controlling numbers easy? I
>have never understood why it's
>OTC for residents and a
>draw for non residents, where
>else is this the case?
>

Montana for one, I'm sure there are others.

There may be places like Wyoming that have OTC resident tags that take non residents 6+ years to draw, I guess my point is it seems pretty lopsided. The fix seems to be that we cut nonresident tags. I am not against giving locals more opportunity to hunt close to home but imagine you lived in eastern Idaho right next to G and had to wait 6 years for a tag when a guy who lives way across the state can go every year. I realize we are not gonna to have an area that produces giant deer every year and is OTC for all but at the same I don't think the answer is to reduce nonresident hunters and I am guessing the state wouldn't want to see the nonresident money leave either.

Really?

That's not a valid argument you made, at all.

The State of Wyoming holds the animals found within its borders in trust for the Citizens (residents) of the State. It doesn't matter if I live in Laramie and want to hunt deer in the Tetons.

Too bad for people that live in Eastern Idaho and they have to apply for a NR tag in Wyoming, they're non-residents. Doesn't matter if someone lives one foot from Wyoming or lives in Florida...they're both NR's.

I've heard some crazy arguments...but that's right up there with the most wild.

Things should be lopsided in favor of Residents, since we aren't required to give NR's a single tag for anything.

Never did understand why NR's feel entitled to another States wildlife resources?

I am not from Wyoming but felt the need to post on this issue. I do not know the outfitter you talk of nor do I care about his business so much, however I did read through most of the other post and all of this one. Whether you think he wrote it for selfish purposes or not I do have to agree with one thing that was brought up. We are becoming more efficient predator's. If you want to save the tradition of being able to hunt every year where you want then we are going to have to limit how we hunt. The only reason Wyoming hasn't suffered the fate of other western states is your limited population. in 1980 to 1990 I would see ten to twenty bucks a day archery hunting in Eastern Oregon. Last year I saw one buck in six days and about 12 deer total in an area I would have seen 200+ in six days. We have 4+ million people and there is no such thing as a over the counter for residence mule deer anymore. Our top hunts are a joke hence why so many of us crave to hunter elsewhere. If Wyoming wants to limit NR even more great you have the right, but if you want to save hunting long term limit Scopes? Crossbows, modern bows, trail cameras. You think he is greedy watch all the companies that make these products throw millions against those type of rules. I understand that this post is about him but I felt this important issue got lost from the original. Your state will end up like mine in your grandchildren's lifetimes if we are not willing to limit ourselves as hunters and think ahead. I would like to chase lots of deer every year so you already know my thoughts.

>I am not from Wyoming but
>felt the need to post
>on this issue. I do
>not know the outfitter you
>talk of nor do I
>care about his business so
>much, however I did read
>through most of the other
>post and all of this
>one. Whether you think he
>wrote it for selfish purposes
>or not I do have
>to agree with one thing
>that was brought up. We
>are becoming more efficient predator's.
>If you want to save
>the tradition of being able
>to hunt every year where
>you want then we are
>going to have to limit
>how we hunt. The only
>reason Wyoming hasn't suffered the
>fate of other western states
>is your limited population. in
>1980 to 1990 I would
>see ten to twenty bucks
>a day archery hunting in
>Eastern Oregon. Last year I
>saw one buck in six
>days and about 12 deer
>total in an area I
>would have seen 200+ in
>six days. We have 4+
>million people and there is
>no such thing as a
>over the counter for residence
>mule deer anymore. Our top
>hunts are a joke hence
>why so many of us
>crave to hunter elsewhere. If
>Wyoming wants to limit NR
>even more great you have
>the right, but if you
>want to save hunting long
>term limit Scopes? Crossbows, modern
>bows, trail cameras. You think
>he is greedy watch all
>the companies that make these
>products throw millions against those
>type of rules. I understand
>that this post is about
>him but I felt this
>important issue got lost from
>the original. Your state will
>end up like mine in
>your grandchildren's lifetimes if we
>are not willing to limit
>ourselves as hunters and think
>ahead. I would like to
>chase lots of deer every
>year so you already know
>my thoughts.

+1

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

Well written, hardcore! I agree.

Plus one Harcore thanks for telling it how it is.

Altimus is a friend of Wiley. Looks like Altimus won't be hunting for a while...

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/m/9f98ef0c-6d7f-3cd5-bb33-2ef5a59b423f/ss_after-poaching-a-desert.html

>I am not from Wyoming but
>felt the need to post
>on this issue. I do
>not know the outfitter you
>talk of nor do I
>care about his business so
>much, however I did read
>through most of the other
>post and all of this
>one. Whether you think he
>wrote it for selfish purposes
>or not I do have
>to agree with one thing
>that was brought up. We
>are becoming more efficient predator's.
>If you want to save
>the tradition of being able
>to hunt every year where
>you want then we are
>going to have to limit
>how we hunt. The only
>reason Wyoming hasn't suffered the
>fate of other western states
>is your limited population. in
>1980 to 1990 I would
>see ten to twenty bucks
>a day archery hunting in
>Eastern Oregon. Last year I
>saw one buck in six
>days and about 12 deer
>total in an area I
>would have seen 200+ in
>six days. We have 4+
>million people and there is
>no such thing as a
>over the counter for residence
>mule deer anymore. Our top
>hunts are a joke hence
>why so many of us
>crave to hunter elsewhere. If
>Wyoming wants to limit NR
>even more great you have
>the right, but if you
>want to save hunting long
>term limit Scopes? Crossbows, modern
>bows, trail cameras. You think
>he is greedy watch all
>the companies that make these
>products throw millions against those
>type of rules. I understand
>that this post is about
>him but I felt this
>important issue got lost from
>the original. Your state will
>end up like mine in
>your grandchildren's lifetimes if we
>are not willing to limit
>ourselves as hunters and think
>ahead. I would like to
>chase lots of deer every
>year so you already know
>my thoughts.

I definitely agree with you on this as well, there is no doubt that all the advances in hunting technology are making us way more efficient hunters. I have been saying for sometime that at some point they are going to have to start restricting some of this new technology before they completely take the sport out of it. Very good point!

What happened to AWESOME?

Wyoming couldn't get by without the non-resident money, that has been said before, and Buzz's mine mine mine resident mentality definitely does not have the mule deer herd's best interest in mind.

I agree with the people who have said, it's a heck of a lot easier to kill a deer in this day and age than it was back in the 80's. You're not going to make everyone happy. Residents want to see less outfitters, less NR hunters, NR hunters want more opportunity and everyone wants to see bigger bucks. Maybe a mixture of res cuts, price increases, shorter seasons and easier winters is the perfect combo

Hardcore,
Thanks for the positive feedback, I use a modern bow and just bought a new scope for my rifle. However we all decided to limit the technology we use to bring back the mule deer across the west in order to see lots of bucks and be able to hunt each year I'd be all in. Hope Wyoming never gets as bad as Oregon. Also didn't mean to hijack this discussion but I felt this point got lost along the way. Good luck this year.