Wyoming wildlife managers table crossbow debate pending more information

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Hunters will continue to be able to use crossbows during Wyoming?s archery season, though the Wyoming Game and Fish Department plans to look for more feedback on the topic.

Wardens and biologists in the department compiled a report recently on new hunting technology that includes crossbows that can shoot farther than ever, trail cameras that give feeds in real time and rifles that track their quarry like jet fighters.

The Wyoming Game and Fish Commission discussed the department's recommendation to not allow crossbows during the special archery season, but declined to move forward.

?I'm totally against removing crossbows from the early season,? said Commissioner Mike Schmid.?The majority of [crossbow users] are elderly women and youth. We spend a lot of money and a lot of effort to promote youth and women in the outdoors, and for us to turn around and eliminate a weapon that gets them in the outdoors is a mistake.?

Archery seasons typically begin one month before rifle season starts. They were created to give archers an advantage, because killing a big game animal with a bow requires a much closer range than killing one with a rifle.

Before recommending crossbows no longer be used during archery season, the Commission asked the department to go to the public over the course of the year and ask what hunters would like to see.

?I'm not in favor of having crossbows taken out of archery season,? said Commissioner Gay Lynn Byrd. ?We ought to see what the public thinks.?

Brian Nesvik, the department's chief game warden, said the agency plans to have results from public surveys no later than November.

The debate over crossbows during archery season is a fierce one in Wyoming. Some hunters believe crossbows are too similar to rifles, allowing hunters to shoot without pulling back an arrow moments before letting go. Others say it's a way to get women and youth into hunting. It is also easier than compound bows for those who are injured or disabled. Wyoming and Nebraska are the only Western states that allow them during archery season.

Casper hunter Jeff Muratore said the department simply doesn't know enough to make a decision yet.

?I also would like to say it is awfully premature to take on this crossbow issue when we have virtually no idea how many people are using them during archery season or who is using them,? he said. ?We don't know the percentage of kills between recurve, compound or crossbows. Is the harvest during archery season affecting the resource? Is it causing a problem there??

He does support the department's efforts to look into ? and potentially regulate ? technological advances. Muratore is a board member of the Wyoming chapter of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers, which championed for a bill in 2016 that eliminated the ability to scout for animals with a drone.

Game and Fish plans to hire a company to survey hunters late this spring about crossbows. The survey will also cover the other technology topics from trail cameras to smart rifles.

?I would like to just do the survey and go back and tell the Commission what the results are and then decide if we want to move forward with the regulation,? Nesvik said. ?We want results that are statistically valid and quantifiable.?
 
I agree with what a few of the commissioners said.

Most serious bow hunters are already using compound bows and I doubt crossbows are detrimental to the resource.

Many of the serious compound hunters have sights that they can adjust to take accurate shots out to 100 yards.

If the Chief Game Warden asked to eliminate the compound and only allow long bows then we are talking primitive hunting.

Today's compound bows are far from primitive.

Why take a good opportunity away from Youth, Women and Older folks to get out and hunt when the weather is nice. [font face="verdana" color="green"]
Jake Swensen
 
It seems like this comes up in every state since crossbows became popular and initially most states only allowed their use in gun season. Now many of the states are allowing their use during the regular archery seasons and most compound hunters get bent out of shape when that possibility is brought up. IMHO I'm also with Jeff and you Jake in that until it's determined that they are a detriment to taking too many animals then they should be allowed.
 
>I agree with what a few
>of the commissioners said.
>
>Most serious bow hunters are already
>using compound bows and I
>doubt crossbows are detrimental to
>the resource.
>
>Many of the serious compound hunters
>have sights that they can
>adjust to take accurate shots
>out to 100 yards.
>
>If the Chief Game Warden asked
>to eliminate the compound and
>only allow long bows then
>we are talking primitive hunting.
>
>
>Today's compound bows are far from
>primitive.
>
> Why take a good opportunity
>away from Youth, Women and
>Older folks to get out
>and hunt when the weather
>is nice. [font face="verdana"
>color="green"]
>Jake Swensen

I dont agree. there is a big difference in using a crossbow and a compound bow. I have no problem with use by handicap persons. I am 69 and my hunting partner is 76. We dont need the shortcut presented by crossbows. it is a matter of committment and practice. too many people today are looking for a shortcut. Where does it end?
 
>I dont agree. there is
>a big difference in using
>a crossbow and a compound
>bow. I have no
>problem with use by handicap
>persons. I am 69
>and my hunting partner is
>76. We dont need
>the shortcut presented by crossbows.
> it is a matter
>of committment and practice.
>too many people today are
>looking for a shortcut.
>Where does it end?


***Nobody said there wasn't a big difference between the two! However, if there is no harm to the resource, and most states say there isn't that have allowed them during the regular archery season, then there should be no reason not to allow them. If you and your friend are that age, did you both hunt with recurves or long bows like I did before the compound was even introduced? If you did, then it's rather hypocritical because the compound bows with their huge let off, fancy pins, etc. are certainly a shortcut to what was once used by many and probably by the two of you!
 
Well good for you. But it's not always about YOU.

For example: My hunting buddy has a messed up shoulder and cannot pull back a bow; even a compound. So I guess he just doesn't get to hunt during archery season?

Crossbows during archery season have such a small effect on harvest it's not even worth argument. Long range shooters kill WAY more big game than a crossbow ever dreamed of killing; comparatively. The crossbow/compound/recurve/longbow debate is more about a perceived advantage by the crossbow than anything else.

I'm 66 and hunt with a compound. But that doesn't mean everyone else has to because I deemed it so.

Get over it. If we need to have more restrictions on hunting, that AIN'T IT.
 
Probably not a bad idea to dig a little deeper on crossbow usage before making a decision.

Also don't necessarily agree with the thought that crossbows are needed to get kids, women or the elderly involved in hunting. However, that argument does sound better than what I have witnessed. In all my time in the Wyoming woods all but one crossbow user was a mid twenty year old male looking to take advantage of two extra weeks of hunting season without having to put the same off season effort required to be proficient with a vertical bow. The other was a 250 lb sandal smasher that had, a least opened the door on the truck, using it as a rest while she attempted to shoot from a county road at a 3 point that was on private land. She appeared to be having trouble finding the deer in her sights at 30 yds. My dad and I were stopped in the middle of road attempting to let this little cluster play itself out. When she swung the cocked bow into the cab of the truck directly at the driver, we wiped the tears of laughter from our eyes and drove around them. That's my un-representative sample of crossbow usage in Wyoming.

Kids have lots of opportunities. Not sure having to wait until they are strong enough to draw a bow is a hardship. Women are not as weak and frail as some might try to make them out to be. Not sure they need special consideration due to weather and strength issues. And finally the elderly, well I guess all good things must come to an end at some point.

Physical disabilities, I am 100% on board with crossbow usage.
 
How many crossbow hunters do we have?

Out of a 100 bow hunters how many use a crossbow. I no a few crossbow hunters but not a one use it for hunting.

I just feel like this is such a small issue to even worry about when we have bigger issues we can deal with.

This topic can go onto hunters shooting 1300 yards. If you restrict the bowhunter/crossbow hunter then better look into restricting gun hunters. You restrict one thing then it leads to something else. I mean is a crossbow hunter really making that big of a affect compared to other things
 
I see this EVERY year:

I frequently go to the bow range down Firehole road south of Rock Springs. Most of the summer. It's amazing to me how many "bowhunters" show up the last week of August to start practicing for the archery hunt which begins in a few days. How accurate can you possibly be with a couple days of practice?? I'll take a crossbow hunter over those guys ANY DAY.

We need to be more concerned with other things, IMO.
 
What many don't know is crossbows have been legal in archery season for over 4 decades in Wyoming. In that time technology for compounds has equaled or surpassed that for crossbows, with many archers taking 100+ yard shots(which are unethical for any bow) with compounds. A quick fact check shows no increase in mule deer % of harvest and a slight increase in elk over the last ten years.

This is a non-issue.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-18 AT 05:05PM (MST)[p]The other big dead elephant in the middle of the room, that nobody wants to talk about, is how the Department presented this idea. The department came up with the idea of banning crossbows internally, via a whitepaper from input from only GF staff.

Whether you are pro or anti crossbow in archery season, the bigger issue is that the department brought this issue to the commission before providing any data. They also didn't ask for public comment before hand either.

I often defend the Department as they do an over-all good job. But, I'm not going to give them a pass when they screw up...and they blew it on this one.

They put the cart squarely in front of the horse this time...and they need to allow the public to comment on these kind of contentious issues.

I'm also a bit skeptical of how they are going to gather comments and provide data by November...and where and who they are going to talk to. It better be the public.

Whether or not you agree or disagree with crossbows in archery season, I think JM77 deserves a lot of credit for asking the hard questions during the commission meeting.

To have an informed opinion on any issue, data and information are key. We owe it to ourselves to demand that from the Department rather than knee-jerk over-reactions.
 
I don't have a issue on crossbows... Considering a few months ago.. At a public meeting.. We where talking about... The elk numbers being high.. Talking about giving nonresidents more elk tags... And now we are talking about doing away with crossbows.. I am confused..
 
A crossbow still has sustantially less effective range than even a muzzleloader.
It's still archery equipment that involves hitting and killing an animal with a sharp stick.
Mostly under 50-60yrds in a skilled hunters hands.
I don't hunt with a crossbow, but it's mostly because I have a great compound bow that I have faith and lots of years experience with. I see no need to switch when I can hit and kill game reliably at 60-70 yrds. and yes many times much closer if I can get the drop on game.
They both ( crossbow and compound) are highly advanced peices of equipment and require lots of practice to be effective with at distances over 40yrds. for the average person.
Young, old, female, or male for that matter.

Most of the country has come to realize this. And most states see that it helps attract new hunters and helps keep disabled hunters in the feild.
Wyoming will , I'm sure continue the good job of making the right decisions.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-18 AT 07:12PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-18 AT 06:44?PM (MST)

Texas did a very large and extensive study on the use of crossbows during archery seasons. They split all of their public hunts into separate categories. Tracking all the shots taken, distances, kills, wounding, misses, and lost or recovered animals. Requested the public to provide input from the general seasons also.

The overall result after 3 years? No substantial difference in percentages between the two groups. They finally agreed to close the door on the questions/issue and allow them both to be used during archery season.


Here's a snip from the study.

In 2009, when the state first decided to permit the use of crossbows during archery season, some purists asserted that crossbows were too effective because they were easier to shoot, allowed hunters to hit animals at much greater distances, and would greatly increase the archery harvest totals, possibly decimating some herds. The TP&W myth-busting wildlife biologists have found no merit to the claims.

"Statistically, there is no difference based on the hunter-reported data," Slack said. A total of 1,178 hunters participated in permit hunts at six separate facilities during the 2010?2013 seasons, with 529 using crossbows and 649 using vertical bows.

"The hunter success rate with vertical bows (including both recurve and compound) was 17.3 percent. With crossbows, the success rate was 16.8 percent," he said. So much for the myth of a crossbow advantage.

As far as the claim that crossbows can be long-range weapons, research shows that the average shot was 26.3 yards with crossbows and 22.3 yards with vertical bows. Another set of myths down the drain.

"While it may be easier for someone to shoot targets farther and more accurately with a crossbow, live animals can hear and respond to crossbows?they can be pretty loud?causing a hunter to miss," Slack said.

Slack said biologists also examined studies by other organizations to help dispel the myth that crossbows have more knockdown power than vertical bows. Those findings show that a crossbow shooting a 400-grain bolt at 330 feet per second is nearly identical to a vertical bow shooting a 400-grain arrow at 320 feet per second.


*** Now, if you really want to argue about something pertinent to elk hunting, wounding and losses, get rid of those darned expandable broadheads and go back to fixed heads only (like Idaho)!!!
 
So I was at cabelas. Saw Shockey doing an infomercial for an "air bow". Not to pirate thread completely, but is this gonna cause issues?



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-18 AT 08:11PM (MST)[p]>So I was at cabelas.
>Saw Shockey doing an infomercial
>for an "air bow".
>Not to pirate thread completely,
>but is this gonna cause
>issues?
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

It will unless the various states make them illegal to hunt with! I wonder if Shockey says he trusts his life to that bow in that commercial like he does in so many other things he touts, LOL!
 
>So I was at cabelas.
>Saw Shockey doing an infomercial
>for an "air bow".
>Not to pirate thread completely,
>but is this gonna cause
>issues?
>
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


An "air bow" is not defined in regulation in Wyoming as a legal weapon. The G&F Dept made it clear to the Commission it has no intention to address the air bow as a weapon. It will remain illegal to use.
 
I applaud wyoming in the fact that if I draw a tag. I can hunt archery and rifle with the same tag. I can hunt for 2 months with different weapons on the same tag.
IMO any game management agency in any state should not issue a tag if they don't want you to fill it. Seems to me Wy is giving tag holders great opportunities to fill their tags. I hope this does not change. BTW I can shoot further and get off more consequitive shots accurately with a regular bow than a crossbow and don't tell my wife she needs a crossbow.
Why don't we make archery season 1 day in lenght and have 30 seasons. Just think how many tags we can sell that don't get filled. That's money management not game management. Lol!
 
Just throwing in my two cents, there is a reason almost all Western States do not allow cross bows during arching season. Using management numbers to guide us is a must but even more importantly is our ability to plan for the future. How many people are moving to Wyoming, how much land is being lost to development, how much is technology advancement are making us more efficient? In 34 years of chasing elk and killing many of them with a compound one things is for sure I would have killed even more of them with a crossbow.
 
My shoulder was killing really bad about 5-6 years ago so in preperation of using my bow tags I had drawn, I talked to my Dr. and she assured me she would write the needed paperwork for me to use the x-bow.

That dang x-bow was a pain in the ass, heavy, took for ever to crank it to load the 'bolt', noisey as all get out but I will admit it was fun to shoot.

I never sighted it in past 30 yards as I lowered my draw weight on my regular bow to 55 lbs from 70 lbs and I have never hunted with the x-bow.

Robb
 
>Just throwing in my two cents,
>there is a reason almost
>all Western States do not
>allow cross bows during arching
>season. Using management numbers to
>guide us is a must
>but even more importantly is
>our ability to plan for
>the future. How many people
>are moving to Wyoming, how
>much land is being lost
>to development, how much is
>technology advancement are making us
>more efficient? In 34 years
>of chasing elk and killing
>many of them with a
>compound one things is for
>sure I would have killed
>even more of them with
>a crossbow.

A good point. Technology creeps along even with a particular method. A fast compound used to be 200 fps, now it is much faster. Crossbows used to give a slight edge in speed now they sit and fire 3 inch groups at 100 yards. A lot of guys cant do that with a rifle.
mber Dwight Schuh urging elk hunters not to take a shot at over 30 yards because of the potential that the bull will move while the arrow is in flight. Even at crossbow speeds 100 yards is a lot.

i agree with comments of guys not practicing until two weeks before the season. that is no excuse for giving them a weapon that will allow them to wound at longer range if they dont practice.
 
> Crossbows used to give
>a slight edge in speed
>now they sit and fire
>3 inch groups at 100
>yards. A lot of
>guys cant do that with
>a rifle.

Now I am beginning to understand this crossbow controversy; they shoot better than rifles now.
 
>> Crossbows used to give
>>a slight edge in speed
>>now they sit and fire
>>3 inch groups at 100
>>yards. A lot of
>>guys cant do that with
>>a rifle.
>
>Now I am beginning to understand
>this crossbow controversy; they shoot
>better than rifles now.


Hard to believe you didn't know that already Jeff, LOL!
 
When I first saw that commercial on TV, I thought it was stupid! Just another company trying to get a bigger piece of the public pie, by lying to you. Yeah it shot a 3-4" 3 shot group, but how many takes did they do to get that footage??? Did you pay attention to the lag time between shot and hit??? An elk can move 2-3 FEET in a step at that distance. I don't care what hardware you choose to use, just keep practicing and take reasonable and ethical shots.
 
If you guys want data indicating that crossbows are detrimental look at WI. The harvest data shows how much more effective crossbows are than compound bows. Last time I looked crossbows where killing the same number of bucks as bows but with only 1/3 of the number of hunters. Sure the number of licenses have gone up drastically after full legalization of crossbows, but those hunters kill more bucks than bows even in the lower deer density northern forested units. Crossbows appeal to gun hunters which is likely where the increases license sales came from. It also hurts that in WI you can kill 2 bucks a year with a bow and a gun tag. That's greedy IMO.

WY really needs to look at archery hunting tags too. In many units with type 1 and 9 tags it sure seems like most of those go to bowhunters (esp NRs). That makes is harder for a gun hunter to draw a tag too. Having the ability to bow hunt on a type 1 tag is also more of an incentive for Residents (who have more time) to carry a crossbow. If WGF wants to increase revenue and improve hunting increase type 9 tags and make it a choose your weapon tag (gun or bow/crossbow). No bowhunting on a rifle tag. They could even issue GEN bow tags too.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-30-18 AT 12:42PM (MST)[p]>If you guys want data indicating
>that crossbows are detrimental look
>at WI. The harvest data
>shows how much more effective
>crossbows are than compound bows.
> Last time I looked
>crossbows where killing the same
>number of bucks as bows
>but with only 1/3 of
>the number of hunters. Sure
>the number of licenses have
>gone up drastically after full
>legalization of crossbows, but those
>hunters kill more bucks than
>bows even in the lower
>deer density northern forested units.
>Crossbows appeal to gun hunters
>which is likely where the
>increases license sales came from.
> It also hurts that
>in WI you can kill
>2 bucks a year with
>a bow and a gun
>tag. That's greedy IMO.
>
>WY really needs to look at
>archery hunting tags too. In
>many units with type 1
>and 9 tags it sure
>seems like most of those
>go to bowhunters (esp NRs).
>That makes is harder for
>a gun hunter to draw
>a tag too. Having the
>ability to bow hunt on
>a type 1 tag is
>also more of an incentive
>for Residents (who have more
>time) to carry a crossbow.
> If WGF
>wants to increase revenue and
>improve hunting increase type 9
>tags and make it a
>choose your weapon tag (gun
>or bow/crossbow). No bowhunting
>on a rifle tag.
>They could even issue GEN
>bow tags too.

I find it hard believe the various WI stats you mentioned and if they are out there please post them up! It's also close up shots out of a tree for whitetails in WI that is quite different that the animals that are hunted in Wyoming. In MI we also have a 2 buck limit, but the vast percentage of hunters probably don't even fill one tag and FYI years ago we used to get 4 buck tags! Also, your last paragraph is strictly your opinions on stuff that you have no facts to back them up with and several are outright incorrect. NRs do not draw more tags than residents in the initial draw the way the Wyoming draw system percentages for NRs is set up.
 
It's strictly a matter of the resource. If you have to many of something then you can be very loose on the rules. I just don't want to see Wyoming go the way of other western states where the fish and game says look at all the animals we have, we can do whatever. So they have looser restrictions on weapon types and seasons and issue more tags and within a few years everyone is wondering were all the bucks and bulls went. Just look at many of units in Colorado and Oregon and you'll see what I mean. Look ahead not behind!
 
>It's strictly a matter of the
>resource. If you have to
>many of something then you
>can be very loose on
>the rules. I just don't
>want to see Wyoming go
>the way of other western
>states where the fish and
>game says look at all
>the animals we have, we
>can do whatever. So they
>have looser restrictions on weapon
>types and seasons and issue
>more tags and within a
>few years everyone is wondering
>were all the bucks and
>bulls went. Just look at
>many of units in Colorado
>and Oregon and you'll see
>what I mean. Look ahead
>not behind!


Your first sentence is right on the button and there is no way the crossbow is going to hurt the resource in Wyoming. They've been allowed for 40 years during the archery season and that should pretty well tell you that the state knows what they're doing and don't need to suddenly restrict their use.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-30-18 AT 05:31PM (MST)[p]I guess I'll go with crossbows are OK in Wyoming then. If the resource can handle it then I guess it can handle it. I don't live in Wyoming but have hunted and killed elk and deer on DIY hunts in almost every Western state and I've just seen to many go down hill over the years so I guess I'm just a little gun shy. Just want to see good hunting stick around for our kids and grand-kids. I'm glad Wyoming and Montana are still holding their own.
 
Crossbows have been legal for many many years. just as good if not better today than it as 30 years ago. I'm 65 and hunt wit a vertical bow but if a time comes when I can not draw it I'll be using a crossbow if thats what it takes to keep me in the woods.
 
It's difficult for WY to judge the impact from xbows because they've been legal for so long, so even though hunting in WI is different hunters in general are not. WF&G is looking at the future but this discussion should also include current impacts of xbows and technology. The article below has some data and if you look at license sales xbows went up dramatically since legalization in WI while bows licenses went down slightly. Overall total deer license sales went down so xbows are not bringing in new hunters as suggested, it's only allowing existing gun hunters to hunt longer by taking advantage of another season (and another buck tag). The fear is this will have a significant impact on harvest rates so at some point archery season length will have to be shortened (since we will never limit tags). The increased buck kill due to more licenses and higher success rates of xbows IS having an impact. Conversely, if WY were to limit xbows there might be justification for additional licenses because even though you don't have the data is almost guaranteed xbows have had an impact for some time which will continue to increase as technology increases (due to increased demand for xbows due to legalization elsewhere).

https://www.jsonline.com/story/spor...er-kill-surpasses-vertical-bow-ki/1016497001/

If you want to understand how xbow technology will impact future seasons you need to understand how it impacts the current seasons. Who hunts with xbows, and why? WY has the data if anyone wants to look, how many archery licenses (needed with a type 1 but not a 9) are sold to NR and Res? I'm willing to bet there is a significant percentage that bow hunt with a type 1 tag. If WY won't (or can't) limit xbows that only leaves tag numbers and types, and season length left to adjust for the increase success rates we all know will occur as the technology advances.

I never said NR draw more tags, my point is the demand for NR elk archery tags in WY in many areas is higher than gun tags, that leads bowhunters to apply for type 1 tags because the type 9 tags have lower (worse) draw odds. That makes draw odds for type 1 worse for those who want to gun hunt too. The current WY licensing system is an incentive for resident gun hunters to hunt with xbows because they have the time to hunt 2 seasons. If it were truly a choose your weapon state then you'd see less xbow use as gun hunters would choose gun hunting vs bow/xbow. This would also see the demand for type 1 tags go down, which could also allow more type 9 tags to be issued w/o any increase in harvest. So both gun and bow hunters could end up with better draw odds with the same harvest as now.

Unlike WI with 1 million deer the WY elk herd is limited and does not have the capacity to sustain more harvest by allowing more hunters to hunt longer with additional seasons. If we want more opportunity (i.e. tags) or more quality elk hunting then time hunters can hunt has to be shorter. Eliminating archery hunting with type 1 tags is the easiest way to reduce hunting pressure, so would limits on xbows. With new xbow technology (lighter, easier to carry, more accurate) and the ability to hunt both archery and gun seasons with a type 1 tag it will only get worse.
 
40 years of crossbow use in the archery season and I can kill 3 Elk, 6 Antelope, and 6 Deer. Bull/Cow ratios are in the 30's or better, herds above objective, 30+ day seasons, and the ability to switch weapons.

Quite the problem to have.
 
If the Comms want to focus on xbows and loose sight of the idea of increasing NR gen tags, then I say don't forget about the rampant use of spears.
 
Mat---I suggest that you just worry about the way WI has screwed the pooch, especially the way they handled the CWD situation and literally wiped out the deer in a big part of the state when it was detected. Wyoming has a good G&F Department and they know what they're doing. They did screw this one up by not going out to the public first to see what the actual xbow feeling is and to get an idea of their use. The Commission was wise in tabling the matter and asking for information to make an informed decision that will come down the line and my bet is that the xbow will stay right where it is now. For one thing, IMHO they're aren't enough people using them to affect the kill rate of any particular animal like you say they have done in WI. As WB mentioned, the opportunity to take a large number of animals depending on where you hunt is alive and well in WY and it is because of the way G&F manages the herds. The elk population, in particular, is booming in most areas and over objective in many spots, other than where the wolves are thick, but that's another entirely different subject.
 
>Unlike WI with 1 million deer
>the WY elk herd is
>limited and does not have
>the capacity to sustain more
>harvest by allowing more hunters
>to hunt longer with additional
>seasons. If we want
>more opportunity (i.e. tags) or
>more quality elk hunting then
>time hunters can hunt has
>to be shorter. Eliminating
>archery hunting with type 1
>tags is the easiest way
>to reduce hunting pressure, so
>would limits on xbows.
>With new xbow technology (lighter,
>easier to carry, more accurate)
>and the ability to hunt
>both archery and gun seasons
>with a type 1 tag
>it will only get worse.
>

I guess if Wyo G&F wants more elk, they better put a stop to me killing three this past season with my rifle!
 
Lets back up. I'm not really talking about current xbows use in WY other than it provides an incentive for gun hunters to hunt the bow season. I'm sure WG&F is a fine organization but they are really missing the boat with hunting trends. MY POINT was if they eliminated the ability to bow/xbow hunt with a type 1 tag then they could give out more type 9 tags, and increase type 1 draw odds. Xbows regs stay the same and most everyone is happy.

It's odd that no one is talking about the demand for archery type 9 elk tags which now exceeding gun type 1 tags but the WG&F tag allocation is still stuck in the 1980s as it ignores the increase in bowhunting popularity. Now that they jacked up NR fees they should consider ways to increase revenue with a moderate uptick in type 9 tags for both Res and NR. Eliminating type 1 tag archery hunting is an easy way to do that w/o any impact on harvest rates irrelevant of xbow regs.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-18 AT 03:56PM (MST)[p]>Lets back up. I'm not
>really talking about current xbows
>use in WY other than
>it provides an incentive for
>gun hunters to hunt the
>bow season. I'm sure
>WG&F is a fine organization
>but they are really missing
>the boat with hunting trends.
> MY POINT was if
>they eliminated the ability to
>bow/xbow hunt with a type
>1 tag then they could
>give out more type 9
>tags, and increase type 1
>draw odds. Xbows regs
>stay the same and most
>everyone is happy.
>
>It's odd that no one is
>talking about the demand for
>archery type 9 elk tags
>which now exceeding gun type
>1 tags but the WG&F
>tag allocation is still stuck
>in the 1980s as it
>ignores the increase in bowhunting
>popularity. Now that they
>jacked up NR fees they
>should consider ways to increase
>revenue with a moderate uptick
>in type 9 tags for
>both Res and NR. Eliminating
>type 1 tag archery hunting
>is an easy way to
>do that w/o any impact
>on harvest rates irrelevant of
>xbow regs.

I'm glad you don't have a vote on the Commission on this because Wyoming is not stuck in the 80s, as you stated. Most everyone likes the fact that you can hunt the early archery season on a Type 1 tag by buying an archery permit. There is scuttlebutt that the 45-1 tags are going to have that possibility taken away and it may even happen for the upcoming 2018 season even though a lot of people have entered the Type 1 Draw in good faith that they will be able to do that this year. The G&F didn't "jack up" the fees! The Legislature raised the fees for the first time since 2008 and FYI they also eliminated the $6 million dollars the G&F was getting from the General Fund when they passed that Bill. The word is that the G&F will be in the hole at least a million dollars after this fee increase and will be in dire straits within 4 years and will need another increase to stay solvent.
 
>I'm glad you don't have a
>vote on the Commission on
>this because Wyoming is not
>stuck in the 80s, as
>you stated. Most everyone
>likes the fact that you
>can hunt the early archery
>season on a Type 1
>tag by buying an archery
>permit.

I couldn't agree more Mike. There was a study done in 2012 where 76% of residents and 75% of nonresidents agreed that they did not want a "choose your weapon" structure in Wyoming.
 
"It's odd that no one is talking about the demand for archery type 9 elk tags which now exceeding gun type 1 tags"

A cpl units in the Bighorns doesn't move the needle.
 
I am one that would like to see chose Ur weapon... At the very least every draw unit.. Have a type 9 tag.. Why should the archery hunter.. Compete with all the type 1 tag holders just to get a license...
 
>I'm sure
>WG&F is a fine organization
>but they are really missing
>the boat with hunting trends.

Thank God they are missing that boat. Wyoming has its sh!t together more so than any other state. Show me another State that can price a Gen tags at $1300 and sell every one of them?
 
>I am one that would like
>to see chose Ur weapon...
>At the very least every
>draw unit.. Have a type
>9 tag.. Why should the
>archery hunter.. Compete with all
>the type 1 tag holders
>just to get a license...
>

Why is it some archery hunters feel they are entitled to their own tags and their own season? As far as I am concerned we have plenty of type 9 tags, if you want one, apply for it.

I prefer to bow hunt and be selective, then use a rifle if needed in regular season. That's one of the great things about hunting in Wyoming.

Next you will say there should be archery tags to hunt mule deer in the rut...
 
I don't feel entitled jm77... It would be nice to have more type 9 tags... If U want to call it entitle.. Then So Be It... And I do apply for the type 9 archery only tags.. I would like U to explain to me.. Why wouldn't it be a good idea.. To have more type 9 seasons. In more of the draw units...Do U think it would hurt the elk heard? Would it make the draw odds worse than what they are? Would it generate more revenue for WFG?
 
>I don't feel entitled jm77... It
>would be nice to have
>more type 9 tags... If
>U want to call it
>entitle.. Then So Be It...
>And I do apply for
>the type 9 archery only
>tags.. I would like U
>to explain to me.. Why
>wouldn't it be a good
>idea.. To have more type
>9 seasons. In more of
>the draw units...Do U think
>it would hurt the elk
>heard? Would it make the
>draw odds worse than what
>they are? Would it generate
>more revenue for WFG?

Everything comes at a cost, if not to opportunity(no dual weapon hunting and shorter hunting seasons), then to the resource(more hunters in the field during both seasons). Frankly, this issue is no different than archers who want crossbows out of archery season. You want type 9 tags to increase your odds and have your own season. Type 9 tags come out of type 1 tags and that means little to no draw odds increase. More hunters chasing elk in archery, more in rifle as type 1 holders won't fill during archery.

I could care less about a little extra revenue for a few more tags. I care more about using my lifetime archery stamp which could be made worthless.
 
So U keep saying my season... Like it is sum thing great.. September 1-14 is what I consider my season...That's the only entitlement we get. Before the crowds of type 1 tag holders start there hunt... While the type 1 tag holders get half the month of September and then October... Lets talk entitlement.. Do U really think.. That if WFG would add 20 or so type 9 tags.. To sum of the units.. That its really going to hurt the elk population.. U mite not care about a little extra revenue to the WFG... But U will in a few years... When they need more money.... Every one needs a voice at the table... But when comments don't fit a few peoples ideas.. U get the entitlement ##### thrown at U. And U are worried about Ur lifetime archery stamp.....
 
>So U keep saying my season...
>Like it is sum thing
>great.. September 1-14 is what
>I consider my season...That's the
>only entitlement we get. Before
>the crowds of type 1
>tag holders start there hunt...
>While the type 1 tag
>holders get half the month
>of September and then October...
>Lets talk entitlement.. Do U
>really think.. That if WFG
>would add 20 or so
>type 9 tags.. To sum
>of the units.. That its
>really going to hurt the
>elk population.. U mite
>not care about a little
>extra revenue to the WFG...
>But U will in a
>few years... When they need
>more money.... Every one needs
>a voice at the table...
>But when comments don't fit
>a few peoples ideas.. U
>get the entitlement ##### thrown
>at U. And U are
>worried about Ur lifetime archery
>stamp.....

And what have you done to help the G&F lately in the funding department? Let me answer that; nothing, except of course, when you think it might help you draw a tag. Sure everyone needs a voice, the problem for you is, the last survey done on this issue 75% wanted to leave it alone.

More of the same: you move here from out of state and want to change what's worked here just fine. No thanks...
 
U didn't answer any of my questions... Just more of Ur mine is bigger than Urs... I though a couple ideas out there.. And I am a entitled... Every thing U have said is entitlement... Don't take a few type 1 tags from me... Don't take my life time archery license worthless.. I don't care about a little revenue for the WFG.. U don't know me.. But it didn't take me long... To figure U out... Mr Entitlement... So I moved here 3.5 years ago... And I don't have a right to speak... Who the hell do U think U are... Mr Big #####
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-18 AT 08:20AM (MST)[p]>U didn't answer any of my
>questions... Just more of Ur
>mine is bigger than Urs...
>I though a couple ideas
>out there.. And I am
>a entitled... Every thing U
>have said is entitlement... Don't
>take a few type 1
>tags from me... Don't take
>my life time archery license
>worthless.. I don't care about
>a little revenue for the
>WFG.. U don't
>know me.. But it didn't
>take me long... To figure
>U out... Mr Entitlement... So
>I moved here 3.5 years
>ago... And I don't have
>a right to speak... Who
>the hell do U think
>U are... Mr Big #####
>


In case you haven't figured it out yet, the majority usually rules when stuff like this comes out and the public is asked what they want to have or not have. It's pretty clear you're in the vast minority wanting what you want when 75% and 76% of the respondents in that survey Jeff mentioned said to leave things alone and not make Wyoming a choose your weapon state. The way things are going in this country nowadays with everyone split almost down the middle on most issues, it's amazing to get that many people (75% and 76%) to agree on anything! I haven't read where anyone said you can't have your opinions, but here in our country when the vast percentage of people vote on something like in this particular instance and say they want things to remain the same then things should remain the same whether you like it or not! Where did you move from if I might ask? It wouldn't be CA by chance would it?
 
So TopGun.. Tell me why... More of the limited quota units.. Couldn't have a type 9 season to it.. Because JM77 sure didn't convince me of that... When WFG has draw units.. That have 40 to 50 maybe even 60 bulls to cow ratio... Those units couldn't afford a type 9 tag... How about a new archery only any sex tag.. To sum of the draw units.. That would only be good for the first half of the season.. Or the last half of the season.. Leave the 9 units we have now alone..... Like I said.. When U see people here make suggestions or comments... A certain few will denounce and dismiss U right away... U of all people should realize this.. Then what comes next.. What have U done? One thing is for certain.. Wyoming Fish and Game... Will be come in for more money... In a few years.. And I don't think they will be going to the nonresidents... For more money... So whos next..........
Have a good Day.................
 
>>You actually read that illiterate mess?
>
>It was pretty bad wasn't it,
>LOL!


It used to be a "thing" for teenagers like 15 years ago, on par with the old "valley girl" phase.


Now, you just look ignorant.
 
Conrad8899,

First off, your posts would be easier to read if you actually formed coherent sentences, you know, like you were taught in grade school.

Now on to your idea.

Pay attention to what mulecreek stated, the WYGF is selling out of NR $1300 special fee general elk tags, every year. Why? Because there is added value for a NR to come here in and hunt both with a bow in September and also later on with a rifle.

Same concept applies with limited quota elk tags, there's an added "value" to hunters that choose to hunt both seasons, that they don't enjoy in AZ, UT, NM, NV, ID, CO etc.

Its what separates WY from the majority of other states and why so many NR's apply here.

Your idea will make WY just like every other State, which IMO/E, is the wrong approach.

The WYGF is not in a financial bind, they're good for at least 4 years. It gets old when guys like you push your agenda on a perceived problem. Wyoming Resident Sportsmen will step up like they always do when the department needs additional funding.

Finally, the reason that people live in Wyoming is to enjoy maximum days in the field, and that includes being able to hunt with both a bow and a rifle if they want. It gives us flexibility in regard to juggling family, work, fighting for public lands, etc. etc. and also to hunt when we have available time between all that.

Restricting both R and NR to one time frame is not a good idea, and not needed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-18 AT 11:01AM (MST)[p]>>>You actually read that illiterate mess?
>>
>>It was pretty bad wasn't it,
>>LOL!
>
>
>It used to be a "thing"
>for teenagers like 15 years
>ago, on par with the
>old "valley girl" phase.
>
>
>Now, you just look ignorant.

His #53 was even worse. When someone makes posts like those it makes one wonder what education level that person has and it's very hard to take them seriously on anything they say IF you can even decipher the gist of their post!
 
Obviously there are factions that would like more type 9's, "BOW" being one of them. It could have been a good discussion.
 
>Obviously there are factions that would
>like more type 9's, "BOW"
>being one of them. It
>could have been a good
>discussion.

That is probably true WB, but something always has to give and I would think if the number of Type 9 tags were expanded it would lead to a cry by those that would lose some tags to that proposal and that would probably be the NR Type 1 guys that are spending a lot of money for the initial license fees and then even more for the archery permit that just went to $70 for NRs. When at least 75% of the respondents say to leave Wyoming alone and not make it a choose you weapon state that's a pretty compelling percentage compared to ones who want that change to be made.
 
So my .02.

I live in Utah and have done dedicated hunter for over a decade. I just picked up archery last month.

I did it for the exact reason TOP and JM are saying. I've hunted with the same group of guys for 40 years, I focused on muzzy hunting, but was in camp with them (camp biotech) for rifle so I thought I might as well carry a gun. That's the only reason I did dedicated, expanding my season.

I pray to gawd that Utah will follow Wyoming on management. Those boys take care of, and LISTEN to their residents.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-18 AT 03:51PM (MST)[p]https://www.google.com/search?q=faux+bow&safe=strict&client=ms-android-att-us&prmd=sivn&source=univ&tbm=shop&sa=X&biw=360&bih=615&srpd=5132810718618821187&ved=0ahUKEwiQv-_t6YrZAhUoxVkKHdExAlMQnUAIFg&prds=cid%3A18069080511152770623%2Cpaur%3AClkAsKraX4BoNvr1heERTPU8MR5igHDHmc-gfhE-9PZS1DpUfpJYAVIpIHf4bvD2HvVRXy8CddD8g6S8sWhVsCa4DdBlQkuR4Fxwt2hhQsMMgv1ivnaRGxkoFBIZAFPVH73hIbVjMHxqL3g1jZdMZsBZrfqZuw%2Csgro%3Aiv%2Cmvi%3A0

I'm all in for a 4 month OTC faux bow tag.
 
Do you guys even read what I posted? The success rates for bow only are lower than that of gun + bow so if you had a choose your weapon season then there could be MORE type 9 tags with the same number of type 1 w/o an increase in harvest.

A lot of hunters draw type 1 tags and only hunt the bow season. I'm one of them, especially with a GEN tag (why there's no GEN archery tag is beyond me). Instead of arguing over what you *think* why don't one of you local experts on the draw get the data and see how many NR draw type 1 tags and buy an archery license. Then see how many kill an elk with a gun. Compare that to residents and you'll see the NR type 1 tag is wasted which also denies a gun hunter opportunity. I seriously doubt many NR hunt both gun and bow on a type 1 tag.

Hell if you don't want better draw odds and more revenue then stay with the current out of date system. I seriously doubt the survey taken included the idea that a choose your weapon season would mean better draw odds. As far as I know everyone wants that but maybe you residents don't. Every NR I know does, and for $1300 a tag we should have some input in our seasons.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-18 AT 05:55PM (MST)[p]
I wouldn't hunt on a type 9 license and don't know any nr that would. It gives me nothing but the first 2 weeks unless I'm in the Bighorns or a cpl others and that's the last place I'd burn points.
 
>Do you guys even read what
>I posted? The success
>rates for bow only are
>lower than that of gun
>+ bow so if you
>had a choose your weapon
>season then there could be
>MORE type 9 tags with
>the same number of type
>1 w/o an increase in
>harvest.
>
>A lot of hunters draw type
>1 tags and only hunt
>the bow season. I'm one
>of them, especially with a
>GEN tag (why there's no
>GEN archery tag is beyond
>me). Instead of arguing
>over what you *think* why
>don't one of you local
>experts on the draw get
>the data and see how
>many NR draw type 1
>tags and buy an archery
>license. Then see how
>many kill an elk with
>a gun. Compare that to
>residents and you'll see the
>NR type 1 tag is
>wasted which also denies a
>gun hunter opportunity. I seriously
>doubt many NR hunt both
>gun and bow on a
>type 1 tag.
>

MAT

First, read post #55 by BuzzH, it is spot on.

Second, do you not understand that the Wyo G&F knows a certain % of type 1 & 2 tags are filled during archery season? This very fact allows the G&F to INCREASE type 1 & 2 tags and maintain an acceptable hunter density.
Your idea of just adding type 9 tags is flawed for this very reason. I have been told by wildlife managers, that all things equal, the addition of type 9 tags will mean a reduction in type 1 & 2 to maintain acceptable hunter density numbers and resource management. Also, type 9 tag holders harvest at rates two to three times of statewide archery success rates.

Third, 75% of resident and nonresident hunters do not like your idea.

Forth, reread post #55 by BuzzH
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-18 AT 09:21PM (MST)[p]>Do you guys even read what
>I posted? The success
>rates for bow only are
>lower than that of gun
>+ bow so if you
>had a choose your weapon
>season then there could be
>MORE type 9 tags with
>the same number of type
>1 w/o an increase in
>harvest.
>
>A lot of hunters draw type
>1 tags and only hunt
>the bow season. I'm one
>of them, especially with a
>GEN tag (why there's no
>GEN archery tag is beyond
>me). Instead of arguing
>over what you *think* why
>don't one of you local
>experts on the draw get
>the data and see how
>many NR draw type 1
>tags and buy an archery
>license. Then see how
>many kill an elk with
>a gun. Compare that to
>residents and you'll see the
>NR type 1 tag is
>wasted which also denies a
>gun hunter opportunity. I seriously
>doubt many NR hunt both
>gun and bow on a
>type 1 tag.
>
>Hell if you don't want better
>draw odds and more revenue
>then stay with the current
>out of date system.
>I seriously doubt the survey
>taken included the idea that
>a choose your weapon season
>would mean better draw odds.
> As far as I
>know everyone wants that but
>maybe you residents don't. Every
>NR I know does, and
>for $1300 a tag we
>should have some input in
>our seasons.

Yep, we read what you post and we don't agree with most of your comments with the majority of your post contents just being suppositions and opinions that aren't backed up by fact or any stats. As jm77 pointed out, the G&F has stats that are pretty close on kill rates, who hunts with what, etc., so let them continue to do their job and I hope they keep listening to the majority of survey respondents.
 
I've been hunting WY for 25 years as a NR. In that time I've seen tag demand go through the roof. Back in the day every unit that had a type 1 and 9 archery season had tons of leftover Res 9 tags that NR could get. According to you guys no resident in their right mind would apply for a type 9 tag in unit like 37 when they can bowhunt with an OTC Gen tag, yet there haven't been any leftover tags for these units (including many Yellowstone units) in years because the residents are claiming them just so they can hunt pre-rut for 2 weeks! I think this makes my point about demand now vs then for type 9 tags even for residents. I'm willing to bet the stat ?75% of hunters don't want a choose your weapon season? is outdated now that tag demand is so high that residents can't draw every year. Tell them they could if they had to choose a weapon and see how many would support it now.

If hunting both seasons is so great why not have type 9 tags in every unit? In those areas how many tags are taken by bowhunters (at the loss of gun hunters)? Type 1 guys would still get the last 2 weeks but you could sell more type 9 tags and still have the same hunter hours per year (pressure). And the odds of drawing a type 1 tag would get better since there is less competition. The key stat is how many type 1 tag holder buy archery licenses? Someone please get these for us.

So do you guys want more opportunity (better draw odds) or not? Elk are a fixed resource so to increase odds of hunting every year (meaning more tags) and keep the same hunter density (pressure) and harvest there's only 3 things that can be done:

Decrease season length (less hunter-hours per hunter)
Limit weapon choice (gun>xbow>bow) or limit technology
Change season dates (like rut hunts)

Another idea is to add more seasons such as two separate 2 week archery seasons like AZ. Even if it's just for NR, a majority (I'm guessing like me) only have 2 weeks to hunt per year. I find it impossible to believe that guys from the Midwest or the East are making 2 trips to WY a year to hunt. Again, stats are available to prove or disprove this. Also hunter density apparently isn't too important since all type 9 and every type 1 hunter can hunt the last 2 weeks of archery season. This could be greater density especially on weekends than the gun season if more people did it (which seems to be the case, got any data?).

Just last week it was suggested by the Wi Natural Resources board to shorten the xbow season length and eliminate group hunting for deer so we don't end up like you guys and drawing for tags. We?re trying to keep unlimited opportunity which will require using one or more of the 3 choices above if buck harvest rates keep going up. It's really just simple math once you have reliable data which seems to be in short supply here.
 
MAT,

Are you aware that for every additional Type 9 tag offered to NR, there will be a corresponding reduction in Type 1 or 2 tags?

There is a maximum of 7250 elk tags available to NR. The only tags not included in this count are the type 6 tags.

Your idea could very well improve the odds of drawing a type 9 tag vs. a type 1 tag but would surely reduce the odds of drawing a type 1 tag.

Your ideas are fine ideas but as Buzz stated they appear to be answers in search of a problem. Hunters, whether they are res or NR, that do not hunt elk in Wyoming on more than an every two year frequency are doing so because they are holding out for a very specific tag or they simply don't want to hunt. That is a fine choice but don't expect people to be lining up to support your ideas. Those that hunt it more frequently are happy to take advantage of the abundance of great elk tags offered and variety of hunting methods available under most tags.
 
>There is a maximum of 7250
>elk tags available to NR.
> The only tags not
>included in this count are
>the type 6 tags.

What is that number based on? I thought this was a % of # resident tags sold and not a hard number? If not then that's the problem. No one has considered the huge increase in archery hunting, so why not have type 9 tags in every unit? Or have GEN archery tags? Sure you might sell a few more tags but the harvest rate, and hunter density would be the same.

These are just ideas to expand opportunity (which for WY means more NR $) w/o affecting harvest or crowding, in fact they could help the latter. So maybe my point about not keeping up with the times is the tag allocation for Res and NR.

Also if they eliminate archery hunting with a type 1 tag as proposed for some units that would increase harvest and crowding as those tags will now all go to actual gun hunters, not bow hunters trying to get better odds in the type 1 draw (which should be an obvious indicator as to what's happening with demand). And it would decrease opportunity for all bowhunters, even Res.
 
It appears some people (Mat) will not take NO for an answer! FYI Mat, the 7,250 NR tags mentioned is stipulated right in a Wyoming Statute that would have to be changed before the G&F could even think about doing what you're wanting. I can say that with last survey that was done a few years ago (1/2 way through since the time that PPs were instituted in 2006) that showed at least 75% of the hunters not wanting "choose your weapon" in Wyoming there will be no wholesale changes such as you suggest in the near future and rightly so just because you want a better chance at an archery tag!
 
>7,250 is 16% of the total
>full price elk quota of
>45,315.

Well, that's not how it works. The 7250 cap is in regulation, controlled by the Commission. In the initial NR draw, nonresidents get 16% of the tentative quota for LQ permits. That total is subtracted from 7250 and the rest are issued as general tags. Type 6 & 7 cow tags do not count towards cap and are issued at the rate of 16%. Any leftover tags can also be applied for by NRs after initial resident draw is held.

mulecreek is correct in saying increases to type 9 tags would mean less NR general tags.
 
Seems like these comments are intended to be brought to the commission, right? What I don't understand is why it's so hard to comprehend any NR tag increases or changes in types will have to start with Residents (since NR have a 16% cap). You local guys all happy with your draw odds and you dedicated bowhunters happy with compeating with rifle hunters to draw tags?

Draw odds have gone way down for residents too and you don't have a PP system. How outdated is that?
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-18 AT 02:16PM (MST)[p]

Our NR quota is not tentative. We have hard numbers, adjusted from the prior years "Commission approved" numbers by the Wildlife Division in early January, then sent to the Fiscal Division late January and loaded for our draw. Those "adjusted" hunt quotas are, with minor exceptions, the "tentative quotas" that we see when they are published for the public meetings prior to the April season setting meeting.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-18 AT 11:50AM (MST)[p]>Seems like these comments are intended
>to be brought to the
>commission, right? What I don't
>understand is why it's so
>hard to comprehend any NR
>tag increases or changes in
>types will have to start
>with Residents (since NR have
>a 16% cap). You
>local guys all happy with
>your draw odds and you
>dedicated bowhunters happy with compeating
>with rifle hunters to draw
>tags?
>
>Draw odds have gone way down
>for residents too and you
>don't have a PP system.
> How outdated is that?


***I can't believe you're still at it after everyone has told you that you are talking to the wall about making the changes you keep coming up with in post after post! Most residents don't want any more NR tags given out and IMHO I can fully understand that when Wyoming is already the most generous state with NR tag numbers. Add that to the fact that at least 75% of both resident and NR respondents don't want any changes to make the state a choose your weapon since they can hunt with multiple weapons in multiple seasons and in many different units if they have a general tag, so you're talking to the wall as I mentioned earlier. If you're not happy the way Wyoming is treating you, I'd suggest you hunt another state and give us a break with your attitude because the only reason you want a change is to benefit yourself and that sucks when you're in the vast minority! I also can't believe your "outdated" comment when referring to WY residents not having a PP system. It seems like everything you comment on is "outdated" from your perspective if it doesn't match your thinking and "wants"! IMHO the random system is the fairest of any system out there and it sure beats the heck out of just about any other system you can name and that's exactly why every other state keeps "bastardizing" their system because things are so screwed up after a few years of a PP system. You only need look at Wyoming to see that in just 12 years since they went to NR PPs for deer, elk, and antelope that if you didn't buy a PP for each animal right from the inception of the program and keep buying them every year that many will never hunt a top tier unit when they would have had a chance at that tag very year under a random system. The only change I would probably make to a random system would be a waiting period of some length for any unit you might draw that has very bad draw odds to begin with even when it's random based. That would not preclude a person from applying for other units the following year that are easier to draw.
 
>You
>local guys all happy with
>your draw odds and you
>dedicated bowhunters happy with compeating
>with rifle hunters to draw
>tags?
>
Very happy! Beyond belief happy! Could not be happier kinda happy!

>Draw odds have gone way down
>for residents too and you
>don't have a PP system.
> How outdated is that?
>
Yet somehow I will still end up with 3 elk tags in my pocket this year all of which I will be able to use a bow to fill if I choose to. It's a tough gig but don't feel sorry for me, I choose this path.
 
If I was a resident I'd be working to get rid of that Legislated 7,250 NR Elk quota and change it to 16%. One day, that 7,250 will come back and bite you. At 16%, it can vary with the total quota.
 
>If I was a resident I'd
>be working to get rid
>of that Legislated 7,250 NR
>Elk quota and change it
>to 16%. One day, that
>7,250 will come back and
>bite you. At 16%, it
>can vary with the total
>quota.

It is possible that at some point it could be a problem but at this time it is not. I see no reason to tinker with a system that works so well. Established herds are stable, new herds are growing and expanding, B:C ratio is good in most herds, ample hunting opportunities for both res and nr hunters, trophy quality is good, great opportunities for cow tags. Not a management system that needs changing any time soon.
 
>If I was a resident I'd
>be working to get rid
>of that Legislated 7,250 NR
>Elk quota and change it
>to 16%. One day, that
>7,250 will come back and
>bite you. At 16%, it
>can vary with the total
>quota.

So? It can vary only as to how many NR general tags are issued and that has been working just fine.. And explain to me how the numbers would be determined if there was no cap? It's easy to issue 16% of LQ tags, but who knows how many residents will buy general.

And as far as "hard" quotas, I suppose for the sake of the NR draw you can call them that(or the person you talked to can). But, I can assure you Bob, some of the quotas will change by the April Commission meeting and in some of those areas the NR will get screwed and in others they will not. The early drawing is one of the most ridiculous things done by this G&F Dept. It not only violates the Administrative Procedures Act, which requires a public comment period, it flies in the face of proper wildlife management. It requires wildlife biologists and wardens to come up with quotas before many winter counts are done and well before the winter has run it's course. Ask any on the ground employee what they think about this drawing. It is done in February for purely political reasons.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-07-18 AT 02:35PM (MST)[p]I agree the date is way too early and yea, it won't work with gen licenses.

per our phone conversation

"(bbb) ?Quota? means the maximum specified number of licenses to be issued for a given hunt area and species as provided by Commission regulation; in the case of nonresident elk hunt area quotas, the maximum number of specified licenses to be issued by hunt area as provided in writing by the Wildlife Division to the Fiscal Division."
 
So what you are saying is you don't want any more resident archery tags even for harder to draw units because there will be an increase in NR tags too? Wow, my buddy in WY is right, you guys are clueless and looking for the easy way to kill elk. I guess the only real bow hunters live out of state.
 
>So what you are saying is
>you don't want any more
>resident archery tags even for
>harder to draw units because
>there will be an increase
>in NR tags too?
>Wow, my buddy in WY
>is right, you guys are
>clueless and looking for the
>easy way to kill elk.
> I guess the only
>real bow hunters live out
>of state.


You need to take a hike because nothing was said that even approaches that silly first statement! As far as the second and third comments, they were just plain ignorant!
 
>So what you are saying is
>you don't want any more
>resident archery tags even for
>harder to draw units because
>there will be an increase
>in NR tags too?
>Wow, my buddy in WY
>is right, you guys are
>clueless and looking for the
>easy way to kill elk.
> I guess the only
>real bow hunters live out
>of state.

^^^^THIS= Clueless
 

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