Hey Mh!

TOPGUN

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Here's your chance to weigh in on the deer up your way at 2 G&F meetings later this month:

Game and Fish seeks public input on mule deer herds near Cody
Mule deer
The Wyoming Game and Fish Department will host two public meetings to discuss mule deer in the Clarks Fork and Upper Shoshone mule deer herds. The Clarks Fork and Upper Shoshone deer herds are located west of Cody and encompass Deer Hunt Areas 105, 106,109 and 110-115.

?Game and Fish is concerned about the quality of buck hunting and population levels in both of these herds,? said Tony Mong, Cody area wildlife biologist. ?We invite the public to attend a meeting in Cody or Powell to learn about factors influencing the population, buck numbers and quality and to discuss potential management options Game and Fish is considering.?

At each meeting, Mong will give a presentation on the current and historic population and harvest dynamics of both herds, and then outline potential management options that could benefit mule deer in these areas. Participants will then have an opportunity to discuss the outlined options and their impact, and provide feedback related to the short-term management of these mule deer herds. ?It is imperative we hear from the public as we explore management options for these herds,? Mong said.

One meeting will be held Tuesday, Feb. 19 at 5:30 p.m. in Heart Mountain Hall at the Park County Fairgrounds in Powell and a second meeting on Tuesday, Feb. 26 at 5:30 p.m. in Grizzly Hall at the Park County Library in Cody. Both meetings will present the same information, and the public is welcome to attend one or both meetings.

These meetings will be held in addition to the regularly scheduled season setting meetings in March to discuss potential proposed changes to hunting seasons. At this time, no changes to the seasons affecting these two deer herds are proposed; however, feedback from these meetings could result in a proposed change to the 2019 hunting season which will be discussed during the regular March season setting meeting.
 
Thanks for the invite Mike!!!!!!!!!!

I will be at the powell meeting. Im trying to get a couple of guys to go that have hunted the areas for several years that have the same thoughts as mightyhunter.

Dave let me know if your going to the powell meeting.
 
Topgun and NFH,

I plan to attend both meetings. I also believe there may be some informal meetings in February. It is my understanding that a proposal will be made to shorten the season in 106 and to also reduce Region F tags for NR. The 4pt minimum may be continued for a few more years on the Shoshone River unit. I have been communicating with the biologist, Tony Mong.

I would encourage everyone who plans to attend to read the JCR Evaluations for 2017 and other years. I have done so specifically on the Clarks Fork Herd. I don't know if the 2018 evaluation of the deer counts will be available by the time of the meetings. I would encourage everyone to read the Herd Unit Issues portion of these evaluations for the Clarks Fork Herd. You can download those reports on the G&F website. You may notice some unanswered but obvious questions that are raised by those evaluations.

Historically, the objective size for the Clarks Fork Herd is 4,700 to 5,000 mule deer. The herd just continues to decline and hasn't been anywhere near objective for years. In 2004 and 2005 the G&F set a 4pt minimum for buck harvest. One year, there was a screw up and they opened 105 to buck hunting for the entire month of October. In 2008, the G&F cut the November season out completely. As a "bonus" they changed the opener to October 1st from October 15th. Because the bulk of the deer in 106 are migratory there is little harvest in early October. Also in 2008, they added 106 to the LE tag known as the LE105,106 and 109. There has been no lack of attempts to manage the deer in 106 for many years. The big question is whether it has accomplished anything? Only those who hunt the Clarks Fork Herd can answer that question.

Before any changes are made in management, we need to know more about the actual harvest in 106. Right now it is a guess at best. There is no check station and there hasn't been for 20+ years. I have heard of no random checks for this unit during deer season. In 20+ years, I have never been checked while deer hunting this unit. I expect that will change after I raise my concerns about the unit. As we all know, mandatory harvest reports are not part of the process in Wyoming. We spend millions of sportsman's dollars on grizzly bear study. Perhaps, we need to spend some money studying the mule deer in the Clarks Fork Herd. That likely will never happen, as the G&F knows what much of the problem is. The habitat is good and water has not been an issue. The feed and water that I saw last Spring and Summer was nothing short of phenomenal. That is just my observation.

My guess is they will shorten the season in 106 yet again. My guess is that will be permanent despite the fact the herd is migratory and that winter kill was really only an issue in 2016-2017. I also believe that F tags will be cut for the NR hunter. NR deer hunters will likely continue to be deceived into buying F tags and hunting 106. It is beautiful country for mountain mule deer hunting.

My opinion is they should eliminate 106 from the LE tag. I also think that if the situation is as dire as alleged, they may need to consider eliminating mule deer hunting in 106 for a couple of years. After that, I would like to see some serious deer counts to see if hunting has any impact on those deer. I would like that more than permanently cutting another 7 days from the October season. According to G&F, there was a winter kill in 2016-2017. The first time winterkill was mentioned in any of the JCR Evaluations I read, was in the 2017 report.

One thing that always concerns me with G&F decision making in this area is simple. It involves the law of unintended consequences. If they cut the season dates in 106, will all the hunters just pound the units on the North Fork and South Fork of the Shoshone? Those general units are already having serious problems.

If you want to talk to anyone about all of this you can email or call Tony Mong in Cody. Tony seems like a nice guy but is relatively new to the area. You can also do the same by calling Chris Queen. He has been the warden for this area since 2004.

If anyone has any questions, they can send me a PM. All I can offer is what I have seen for the last 20+ deer hunting seasons in 106 and on the North Fork. just sayin...mh
 
>Thanks for the invite Mike!!!!!!!!!!
>
>I will be at the powell
>meeting. Im trying to get
>a couple of guys to
>go that have hunted the
>areas for several years that
>have the same thoughts as
>mightyhunter.
>
>Dave let me know if your
>going to the powell meeting.
>

Sorry about leaving you out of the heading Michael! I actually made that post before I even read down and saw one of the meeting places was in Powell where you live. I know mh has posted various thoughts about the deer situation up there and if you guys go you can hopefully fill us in on the discussion points and possible changes to help the critters out.
 
There are also some additional meetings.

Tuesday February 19 at 5:30 PM at Heart Mountain Hall at Park County Fairgrounds in Powell.

Tuesday February 26 at 5:30 PM at Grizzly Hall at the Park County Library in Cody.
 
MH,

I sent ya a PM. Also see ya next Tuesday. You still got a grizzly adams beard? That way I cant find ya at the meeting
 
MH

It's interesting that there is concern over deer herds in 106 and yet there is a LQ rut hunt in that area. You need to demand they stop that and find a reasonable solution, i.e. shorter seasons, APR to maintain a general season.

As far as mandatory harvest surveys, I think you are beating a dead horse. What they have now is sufficient and what's more important is post season classifications. It is important to see both buck and fawn ratios in comparison to does after the season closes.

Also, I know some think I'm crazy, but I think we should not allow youth to kill doe mule deer, especially in depressed herds. I always hear that not enough are killed to matter, but that is bull. Youth have so much opportunity to hunt big game in Wyoming, letting them kill doe mule deer in most areas is pointless. I honestly believe adding the challenge to harvest a buck, recruits more long term hunters than going the easy way out killing a doe.

Just my thoughts.

JM
 
JM 77,

The LQ 106 hunt was added in 2008 at the same time they eliminated a November hunt on the general tag. There is no doe harvest in 106 except whitetail deer. You can hunt them for the entire month of November in 105 on private property. If they cut another week off the season (last week of October) harvest will be nothing. It will be just an opportunity to take your rifle for a walk. I am all for eliminating the 106 from the LQ season.

I know that mandatory harvest reports are a dead horse. My concern in 106 is there are no check stations set up for that area. They haven't had any for at least 20 ears. I don't see how they have a clue what the buck harvest actually is. These deer are not resident but almost completely migratory. If the migration is late, the counting is inaccurate.

The buck to doe ratio in 2017 was 27/100. That is about what it has been since 2008. The fawn to doe ratio was 51/100 in 2017 and in the ten years prior to that it has fluctuated from a low of 48 to a high of 68. The G&F JCR Evaluation for 2017 blames it on winterkill in 2016-2017. Winter kill is not a major issue in most years. Also, habitat, disease and moisture are also not much of an issue in 106.

In my opinion the continual decline in mule deer numbers is based on predation. That is not mentioned in the JCR evaluations for the Clarks Fork Herds. The predation is mostly lions and wolves. The grizzly bear numbers are way up in the area but I don't know how much damage they do to the mule deer. I do know that they are hard on the calf elk populations in the Spring. I have watched them around the cows during the calving season. The wolf quotas are too low. This year, I saw more wolves than bucks in 106. The quota in the area around 106 was filled by early November. In one of my favorite drainages, there were two packs of wolves and a large tom patrolling a ridge that was less than 3 miles in length. I saw a single doe and fawn in that drainage last hunting season. I haven't seen a buck there since 2016. I think until Wyoming reduces the price of wolf tags for NR and allows multiple tags for wolves and also wolf trapping, the mule deer decline will just continue in 106. Hunting wolves by spot and stalk is a tough proposition. If you are going to be forced to do this, make the tags cheap and easier to acquire so that there are more hunters out there doing it. The G&F has little appetite for doing anything about the wolves.

just sayin...mh



I will attend the meetings in February and March.
 
MH

Sounds complicated, I will be interested to hear how the meetings go.

Youth can shoot doe mule deer statewide in antlered only areas.

JM
 
So a lot of information was presented last night. We could agree we all came cause we see an issue.

First Tony mong the presented his information such as buck/fawn/doe numbers. hunter success for residents/non-residents. predator info. Also herd a few lines about people selling GPS spots to hunt.

What Tony did is he broke us up into smaller groups so we could get more one on one talking instead of a crowd yelling. We got to present our ideas and what we think.

I cant speak for Mightyhunters group which im sure he will tell but he was in group of CLOWNS!!!!!!!!!!

Anyway the one thing I presented is the 4pt restriction. If you go back on data they run it for 2 years and quit it for 8 years then back up for 2 years. My group all agreed we should run it much longer.

The group also suggested less hunting days during general and less days on the late season hunt. Everyone agreed keep youth hunts the same.

thoughts of comminsioner tags and governor are bad. Cause all those guys can come into one area if they wanted to so a lot of people agreed something needs done on that end.

For the Shoshone herd everyone agreed to cut back around 200 non-resident tags. Tony told me he plans on doing that no matter what. Start around the 200-250 bench mark and maybe more in the future if the herd doesn't come back.

Talked about no general hunt and add more late season tags.

We talked about having the clarks fork area and the Shoshone herd have the same general hunt times. Right now a guy can hunt and move to the other area to hunt so the impact is the same.

I brought up about how he have 30 red shirts in the room and I never seen but 2 in the field. I would like to see more time spent on foot and horses cause when they presented the info they don't pay the $900 an hour helicopter fee due to they think its to much. They said they spend more time driving roads. Well anyone who knows the Shoshone herd you wont get much drive time other than the main highway.

Another thing that Mightyhunter and I laughed at was they kept saying check stations. Yes they use them on the Shoshone herd but they kept say the deer checked on the clarks fork herd, well they don't have one. So in our groups I brought this up and talk about a blank stare.



Im sure mightyhunter will add some more info. I talked about what my group discussed. The highlight was looking at another group and see chris queen get handed to with info and seeing him stutter.








one last thing this is all a threshold Tony said. Whatever changes are made we will get them back. Mark my word he said he promises.

Well I don't fall for that cause I seen area 55 elk go to 50 tags along with no late season hunt. I seen the sunlight/Crandall hunt do the same. We were told we will get it back and didn't.

Seems like most groups are willing to take a hit on something just as long as we get it back. That was the main fear I saw last night
 
I attended the meeting with nfh and it was good to meet him. I was easy to spot. You just have to look for a one eyed fat man with a white beard. I took some popcorn to eat. Turnout was really good for this meeting. The meeting was only to discuss mule deer in the Shoshone and Clarks Fork herds. It started on time at 5:30. I never read anything about this meeting in the Powell or Cody paper so I was surprised at the turnout. Guy Eastman was even there.

There were a lot of red shirts present. The local biologist, Tony Mong, made a good presentation for about an hour. When we broke up into little groups I was in group 1. I assume the clowns nfh was talking about, were the two outfitters in my group. I had a spirited disagreement on a certain subject with one of them and I would not back down. The other outfitter was kind enough to admit he was all in on anything that wouldn't cost him clients. Good Grief. At least 3 times I heard him say we have to stop non-resident deer hunters from hunting wilderness areas on the Shoshone. What has that got to do with declining deer numbers?

Our group was adamant that no change in the general season dates in 105 and 106 would take place. It was just 10 years ago, that G&F eliminated the November season for this mostly migratory hunt. I remember the G&F assurances back then that this would fix the problem. They now want to cut another 10 days at the end of October. Just close the season if you are going to do that. I have a diary of my mule deer hunts in 106 and also on the N. Fork of the Shoshone. Of the 25 or so bucks my buddies, family members and I have taken in 106, only 4 of them were taken on or before the 20th of October.

Some glaring concerns for me on the Clarks Fork mule deer herd came from last night and the JCR Evaluations I read for many of the years prior to 2018. There is zero mention of predation. It is like the elephant in the room that no one wants to talk about. To suggest that it is not the major problem and hunter harvest is, defies logic. Luke, the carnivore biologist, did say to me in the group that lion numbers are up. Wolf quotas were not met statewide. The wolf quota in Sunlight Crandall was the first one reached. The G&F is fearful of raising quotas, issuing individuals more than one tag, reducing NR wolf tag charges or allowing trapping. What Wyoming is doing pales in comparison to what Idaho is getting away with in wolf management. Grow a pair. If G&F does not get more proactive on predator control the herd objectives will never be met. I am surprised that the herd objective in the Clarks Fork herd has not been reduced to solve the problem :). It has consistently been 20% to 40% under objective for a long time.

The Biologist, Tony Mong, wanted to cut the general season dates with the "promise" that with proper triggers the old season would return. I believe, once changed, we are all stuck with it forever. My trust for G&F decisions not being etched in stone is long gone. NFH points out a glaring problem with the G&F harvest counting on the Clarks Fork herd. There are no check stations, no real random checking and no mandatory reporting. The harvest is just statistically based. Statistics for determining the harvest seem to follow the GIGO principal for me. Statistics are too easily manipulated to reach a favored objective.


I hope I haven't missed anything. just sayin...mh
 
Thanks for the info Michael and Dave.

I can say that promises made to return the last ten days of general season in the Black Hills were kept, even though the outfitters made a big stink about it. Here around Casper, we were told that 3 point APR would come back on after two years of lower buck/doe ratios. That has happened (lower ratio for two years) and we are told that the APR comes back this year, so we will see.

The key is to stay involved and ask for at least an annual meeting on this subject you met on.
 
Mightyhunter,

They did post in the powell tribune last week about the meeting.

Im glad your going to the cody meeting cause as our group discussed some cody people will be tough to deal with. So I know several people at the powell meeting will also go to the cody meeting.



To be honest I was surprised for Tony to get through the slide show then split us up into groups went well. Im use to people screaming and throwing chairs in the first 5 minutes. I was very pleased how it was somewhat organized.
 
I must have missed the blurb in the Powell paper. I did see some heated discussions around some of the groups. I know that one warden was getting an earful from various people. My group was a little calm compared to some of the others. I had popcorn to eat in the event anything got out of hand. Years ago, I would wade into the screaming and chair throwing. Now, I just like to watch, eat popcorn and observe :).

After the meeting, I did have a discussion with Dusty Lassiter (G&F grizzly guy) about the legislation just passed in Wyoming concerning grizzly bears. I told him it was just the guv and legislative branch being proactive if the bear delisting situation changes. I also think it was intended as kind of a joke. Would California take any problem bears if we offered them? I heard some guys would pay into a go fund me account to assist with transportation costs.


just sayin...mh
 
The next meeting is March 18th in Powell at 6:00PM at Bighorn Federal. It is my understanding that the decisions concerning the mule deer management of the Clarks Fork and Shoshone River herds will be unveiled at the meeting. Will seasons be shortened, NR tags reduced, 4pt minimums be implemented or will they do nothing?

Anyone have a guess on what will happen?

Anyone have a guess on what the real problem is in these units?

just sayin...mh
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-19 AT 10:01AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-19 AT 09:42?AM (MST)

ummmm I heard that meeting is no longer happening. but it could happen at another location

MH,

I already have the results, I will message ya
 
I was just told that the meeting is still on for the 18th but at the fairgrounds in Powell. That is the same location where the meeting was held in February.
mh
 
Ok. I wont be going since I already know what the decision is which I sent you mightyhunter. As I find out more inside info I will let ya know
 

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