ODFW Sucks

440sixpack · Oct 8, 2012

I figured that would get attention.

I just returned from Murderers Creek where I've been going for 40 years and my dad 25 before that. it's not getting any better for deer numbers. I saw two dinks I wouldn't shoot and maybe 10 doe and fawn. I can't put into words how pathetic this is even compared to after our last winterkill in 92/93.

Only a fool or a newbie would argue our deer herds are not in serious trouble so if you're in that group please keep your comments to yourself, my object is to see if there is a concensus for change.

I don't know what the problem is, maybe it's a combination of several things. lion for sure, overhunting including unlimited bow hunters twanging at forkies from the back of pickups, too many rifle tags, too many feral horses, poor winter range managment. I don't know, what I do know is ODFW has spent millions on studies and all they've determined is we need more studies.

So I'm saying close the deer hunting 100% until numbers rebound to at least moderate numbers within range holding capacity in each unit. this would force ODFW to act, if they can't produce then at least we'll know the true impact hunting has.

How many hunters agree? not that many I expect. I hunt out of state so I'll still have good hunting but I'm sick of returning from my favorite places I grew up in feeling depressed and frusterated. until we hunters stand up for the deer ODFW will just sit with their fingers up their butt they have no reason to do otherwise.

Stay thirsty my friends

whtelk · Oct 9, 2012

You forgot one of the biggest reasons deer numbers are going down. Poaching! the poachers know there is a slim chance of getting caught. We need more LEO in the hills year round.

Huffmad · Oct 9, 2012

I agree 100% our deer herds are hurting. And ODFW will do nothing but sell more tags. What really gets me is when ODFW says deer season will be good cause deer numbers are strong. then after the season they will blame the low harvest numbers on the weather. I could go on for hours about this but I will not cause I'm leaving in 2 hours for Idaho. Deer, elk and wolves for 12 days going to be fun!

440sixpack · Oct 9, 2012

You're 100% correct, I was going to mention the weather myself. it's always too hot, too cold, too wet, too cloudy. anything but lack of deer.

Good luck in ID, even with the wolves their deer are doing better than ours. wait until we get more wolves, the mule deer will be higher on the ESA list than the wolves are but we'll still be selling deer tags.

Stay thirsty my friends

LoveBigRacks · Oct 9, 2012

Absolutely correct! Deer numbers are horrible compared to historical figures in many / all units statewide. I would be VERY happy to close all deer hunts for 1-3 years if it would help improve the deer herds. Unfortunatley the ODFW wouldn't EVER consider that because they need the $$ for their now huge budgets, and secondly that would only serve a short term benefit for the 1-2 years after closure. The root cause of deer herd declines will still exist, which I agree is a combination of the cats, tag numbers, poachers, and other things. Murders Crk used to be a fantastic deer unit, as did many other units just 10-15 years ago but deer quantity has dropped dramatically, and quality has suffered significantly as well. I wish I knew the answer to the problem and the solution but unfortunately I don't expect the current trend to change, only get worse. It's difficult enough to get youth into hunting but when opportunities are scarce and the excitement factor isn't there you lose their interest quickly. Terrible situation....

LBR

bonepicker · Oct 9, 2012

A moratorium on deer tags would be good, I would be in favor. The bigger problems are not related to tags (well, maybe to doe tags), we are losing the does to predation. The buck numbers are down possibly because there are too many tags but there are still enough bucks to get the job done. The real problem is when does are killed by cougars, coyotes, cars, poachers, etc. We must keep the doe numbers up if the herds are going to recover. I think that the factors are in play everywhere but population centers like Bend, Ontario, LaGrande, John Day, Lakeview, K Falls, Burns or near the California border are hit with poaching by jackweeds who won't get a job and the more remote places are hit by the cougars and coyotes and soon wolves (bears too when the fawns first hit the ground)
We've really got to knock back the predators for the deer to have a chance. I also think that if ODFW were to improve the habitat (mostly water availability) in the high desert that we would see some added resilience to the herds. Adding troughs and guzzlers would add some significant potential range to the deer population and if they can spread out and get away from hunting, poaching and predator pressure they will have a better chance. And it would allow them to winter in areas that have milder winter weather.
There is alot that could be done to improve the herd health, even things that cost very little. There is no excuse for doing nothing. ODFW must first admit that they have a problem.

440sixpack · Oct 9, 2012

Good posts.

Is there any way to force ODFW to admit there's a problem without a shut off of deer tags? I don't see one.

Even in my hunter safety course in 1974 I was told my role as a hunter was to help manage the game herds . can anyone say we have a need to kill mule deer in most eastern oregon units for the better health of the resource? this alone tells me responsible hunters should support ending all hunting until the resource can handle it.

I'm sure OHA will never support it, they're ODFW's yes men.

Stay thirsty my friends

silverlake176 · Oct 9, 2012

I totally agree. Hunting in the Silver Lake unit should have been stopped 10 years ago. I do think poaching might be a bigger issue than most people think. Look at the weed head that got caught over in Eagle Point last year. I believe he had killed 18 trophy blacktails last year. I would like to see atleast three full time OSP game officers in each county.

silverlake176 · Oct 9, 2012

For the average deer tag in Oregon, it's not much more than a fall camping trip. Then the "hard to draw tags" are decent at best. Yes there are some dandy bucks out there, my dad took one in the North Warners last year, but it still is depresing to see how low the deer number are.

KILLBUX · Oct 10, 2012

I agree with just about everything above. But, one problem I see in this state that I don't in others that I hunt is the season length and timing. The first 10 days of October are about as tough as it comes to find mule deer in mid elevation country. Then you put all the tagholders in the unit in the same spot during the same small time frame - the very few mature bucks that are left turn totally nocturnal. I wouldn't have a problem with the tag numbers or seasons if we had enough bucks but enough is enough! My solution would be to shut it down completely for 2-3 years. Then draw a smaller number of tags compared to the current quotas (maybe half) and extend the season to 30 days. AND MAKE ARCHERY TAGS UNIT SPECIFIC! Then all out predator control - there was a time that kids got bounties for rabbits; maybe ODFW could give kids $5 / coyote tail and $100 / lion tail. They always talk about habitat - the habitat in southeastern oregon is no worse than northern nevada.

I pray for the day that I have to apply for a coyote tag due to low populations.

tchoate3 · Oct 11, 2012

I would have no problem closing deer season down in some units. I'm not sure all units need closed though just reduce tags till population is up. I would like to see ODFW give bonus points for predator control though. For example 1 pref point for 50 coyotes and 2 points per cougar or something of that nature. Cougars should be no differant than coyotes as far as regulations are concerned. I don't think you should have to buy a tag and you should be able to shoot as many as yopu want. That would give incentive for hunters to go out and accually do some damage on the predators. A win win in my book.

G1 · Oct 11, 2012

I do not believe that it is fair to completely blame ODFW for the deer decline. When measures are past that limit the take of mountain lions ie no dogs you have a problem. I live in the Murderers creek unit (lived here my whole life) and spend many days out in the unit. The real problem is cats. The winter range has not changed that much but when the people of Oregon put the dog ban through they sunk the deer. Convince your liberal friends to change their opinions and reverse measure and you will see things rebound in 3-4 years, I am not saying there will be 200" bucks behind every tree but you will see more 2-3 year old dear. I talk with local ODFW biologists frequently and they will not come out and say what is going on but they know. I try yearly to specifically hunt the big cat (an animal that I have come to respect) and know from experience that a mother with yearlings is the most lethal, she will kill every 3-4 days, deer or elk. I have spent days trying to harvest them from my hunting grounds, dogs would bring 100% succes, no dogs it is almost impossible. I have other opinions as to how to help this problem but with no predator control everything else would fall by the wayside. In the 60's there were more hunters, logging, and deer than about any other time and yet the deer numbers maintained,70's, 80's early 90's all good deer numbers, when the measure passed, the numbers began to slide and are falling off even faster now. It would also help if people would slow down and pay attention when they drive as vehicular collisions with deer are extremely high especially this time of year. As for tag allocation they allocate tags for units around here based on what they count in November and March and then use formula's to predict buck to doe ratio's. At that particular time there are deer here from all over the place...as far as 70 miles away. This is a scientific fact based on radio collared deer. They might allocate 1400 tags for Northside because they counted 5000 deer there in November/December but you are lucky to find a deer there in September and early October. That is messed up to me. They know this and I agree, why do they not change? I could give a lengthy essay about my frustrations and concerns, but I will stop and let someone else vent.....

manny53 · Oct 11, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Oct-11-12 AT 01:53PM (MST)[p]I've only been here in Or. 7 years and I see the decline, I elk hunted M, Crk 6 years ago and seen allot of deer, nice bucks as well, returned 2 years ago for another late season elk hunt and there were no deer anywhere, a few on private ground...

Wagon tire? unit two years ago, deer, zero, none of the guzzler had water in 'em....

now this year K-falls, 6 does in 5 days of hunting...

I'm with yah man, only problem is a lot of people here and on ifish thinks its all about getting out into the woods not about killing a deer...

I go camping when i wanna get out, but when I wanna hunt I buy a deer tag, & I better see deer, especially if the ODFW claims that there are sufficient numbers out there to support the tags sold...

if people won't stop buying worthless deer tags the fish and game won't wake up...

here?s my theory on the poor deer numbers, compiled stress on the deer herds, all you listed, I believe the deer herds have been hit by dieses which caused the initial decline and now the out of control Mt. Lion population is stopping any recovery of the mule deer herds...

I remember in utah back in early 80's they shut down the san juan elk ridge unit for 5 years straight and it came back and still hold some monsters.

440sixpack · Oct 11, 2012

I agree cats are a major problem if not the problem, but I can't cut ODFW much slack on that.

Yes sport hunting with dogs was banned, stupid ,stupid stupid thing to do. BUT, ODFW can authorize agents to kill cats if numbers threaten herd stability, as I understand it.

ODFW has used the excuse they can't afford to hire houndsmen , bull crap I know houndsmen who would pay them . so authorize them to reduce lion numbers by whatever means the law requires. I realize they can't use this to exterminate the cats, but they can control them.

If I'm wrong on this correct me, but I've read it and had a biologist lay the cost excuse on me so he is under the same assumption.

Even if I am wrong what is the excuse for putting out unlimited bow tags and 1000 rifle tags in a unit that is well in anyones book underpopulated ( just to use Murderers Creek as an example )? I think tag elimination is the catalyst to change we won't otherwise see.

Stay thirsty my friends

manny53 · Oct 11, 2012

addicted to the $...

again, i was up in M, Crk. this September chasing elk, seen probably 25 head, 3 bulls, here's my point, I ran into a biologist, his thoughts, there's way too much elk in E Oregon, so I expect a rise in tags for elk in the near future.

I think its up to the hunter to make a statement, but one thing I've never seen in my 40 years of hunting, a hunter being publicly vocal about his complaints, don't believe me, lets see how many response?s we get on this post...

We have millionaires buying all those late season tags, but I'll be darn if I ever seen one use their money to make a statement about poor hunting opportunities.

I will not buy another deer tag for Oregon???....

ruttinbull · Oct 11, 2012

I find it ironic that only a few hours ago I was sitting at the conference table with my co-workers and we were all chuckling at what a great year we had deer hunting. Everyone with a tag in the office filled it, no monsters but nice bucks. We all were left with the idea of what it would have been like with just a little bit of rain.

Last night I went out with my in-laws for one last tour in the deer woods. Mother-in-law suffered a stroke earlier this year and cannot leave the truck so we simply drove. Forty-three deer on public land in the last few hours before dark. We saw one dink that was allowed to walk. This was in an area that an old rancher told me held no deer when he was a kid. He saw it through the hey day, but considers the deer hunting better now (when he died a few years ago) than when he was a kid.

Gotta go cut my deer. I think it is venison fajitas tonight!

440sixpack · Oct 11, 2012

I can always kill a dink , I'm not intersted. a mature 4 point is my minimum, I'm a cattleman I like beef better anyway.

This is our problem, people can go out and whack a craphead and they don't see what more you could want. it's because they don't know what was and what could be. ODFW loves your thinking.

Manny the elk are doing pretty well, I'd say Ochoco elk numbers are down a little but Murderers Creek is up a little. quality is definetly not what it was in the 70's and 80's. I too watched the deer drop off as the elk came on and I was convinced there was a connection. but when the deer numbers in SE Oregon where elk are no factor at all are doing no better that blows that theory. besides we haven't had a winterkill since 92/93 and deer are not grazers as much as elk so why would the elk squeeeze the deer out?

Colorado has lots of both deer and elk, but Colorado isn't just a bunch of complacent morons they want quality. the worst deer hunt in CO is better than our best hunt by far and you always see lots of elk.

I can see it now, ODFW will decimate the elk herds to save the mule deer by not cutting deer tags and doubling elk tags. win win for them , more cashola. then we'll have neither to hunt but we'll still buy all the tags they need to stay funded.

Stay thirsty my friends

bonepicker · Oct 12, 2012

Just a comment on the winter kill, 2 winters ago there was a pretty bad winter kill in the Eastern half of the state. Not so much in Bend but farther east it was rough. (On a trip through Bend and Burns, Bend had 1 inch of snow and Burns had 27") It took a pretty big toll on the deer on the eastern edge. It might be a factor in the dramatically worse deer numbers this year in some areas. Last winter was better, most does had twins and most have survived, if we have an average winter, there should be a good group of yearlings for next year. However, cougars are the extra variable that is really impacting the deer population. Its frustrating that we can do virtually nothing about it.

manny53 · Oct 12, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Oct-12-12 AT 10:49AM (MST)[p]"This is our problem, people can go out and whack a craphead and they don't see what more you could want. it's because they don't know what was and what could be. ODFW loves your thinking"

"Colorado has lots of both deer and elk, but Colorado isn't just a bunch of complacent morons they want quality. the worst deer hunt in CO is better than our best hunt by far and you always see lots of elk"

+1....

440sixpack · Oct 12, 2012

There may have been a few deer die a couple winters ago, but it was minor. I live and ranch in eastern OR and I'd say it was what we used to call an average winter, an average winter always takes a few.

I don't even have 5% of the deer in my hayfields I had 20 years ago, in fact I bet there are nights I have zero. we haven't had a winter in the Grizzly and Ochoco unit since 93/93 that comes close to many we had back in the deer days. if you want to worry a little more ask yourself what's going to happen the next time we get a deer killer with the numbers we have now?

ODFW will cut tags 10% once the mule deer hits the ESA, maybe.

Stay thirsty my friends

AIROHUNTER · Oct 14, 2012

And yet how many of you that sit around and complain ever attend a commission meeting?

I certainly cant say we influence them greatly but we do influence them. We hunters are a generally quite passive group and we need to unite and start getting things turned around.

My favorite hunts are because they were with friends and family not just because "I got one".

silverlake176 · Oct 14, 2012

>And yet how many of you
>that sit around and complain
>ever attend a commission meeting?
>
>
>I certainly cant say we influence
>them greatly but we do
>influence them. We hunters are
>a generally quite passive group
>and we need to unite
>and start getting things turned
>around.
>
>
>
>My favorite hunts are because they
>were with friends and family
>not just because "I got
>one".

You are exactly correct. I have attended several odfw meetings in Klamath Falls and the public turnout is horrible.

440sixpack · Oct 15, 2012

I've done my share, I was involved in OHA at the start before the hostile takeover. I quick learned ODFW meetings are not there for public input but rather to inform you of what they plan on doing , and to gauge the reaction so they can adjust the stategy.

I've been to a few since, when you talk about deer numbers as I am now you get the shine on treatment as if you don't know what you're talking about and they're on it. they're clearly not, but they've been getting away with it so long now most people either don't know it or have accepted it.

I'm not a good candidate for the job, but if someone wants to start a group like OHA was intended to be together to fight for Oregons mule deer I'm willing to put time and money into the effort. we don't need another yes man group OHA has that covered, we need to put a thorn in ODFW's side they can't ignore.

ruttinbull · Oct 16, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Oct-16-12 AT 05:51PM (MST)[p] Disregard... Sent PM instead

ruttinbull · Oct 16, 2012

>
>I've done my share, I was
>involved in OHA at the
>start before the hostile takeover.
> I quick learned ODFW
>meetings are not there for
>public input but rather to
>inform you of what they
>plan on doing , and
>to gauge the reaction so
>they can adjust the stategy.
>
>
>I've been to a few since,
>when you talk about deer
>numbers as I am now
>you get the shine on
>treatment as if you don't
>know what you're talking about
>and they're on it. they're
>clearly not, but they've been
>getting away with it so
>long now most people either
>don't know it or have
>accepted it.
>
>I'm not a good candidate for
>the job, but if someone
>wants to start a group
>like OHA was intended to
>be together to fight for
>Oregons mule deer I'm willing
>to put time and money
>into the effort. we don't
>need another yes man group
>OHA has that covered, we
>need to put a thorn
>in ODFW's side they can't
>ignore.

I agree... we found some common ground!

manny53 · Oct 16, 2012

I'm not smart enough to be a leader so i'll follow if something real get started, long story short i had to drive down to cali to see a 4 point worth shooting... Sad but true...

elkliver · Oct 16, 2012

If you folks hear about the recent changes in tribal deer hunting, you'll throw a fit. Its going to get MUCH worse.

I'll get some details and post them here.

bonepicker · Oct 17, 2012

Nice buck manny! Apparently nobody took anything better in Oregon.

manny53 · Oct 17, 2012

LAST EDITED ON Oct-17-12 AT 08:12PM (MST)[p]>Nice buck manny! Apparently nobody took
>anything better in Oregon.

not on my team my son has a general season tag tho so we'll see, i got skunked in kfalls...

you know with the way things are our first nations people need to lighten up also, i'll bet they're having the same outcome we are, you can only kill indiscriminately for so long before they're all gone.

back in 04 I hunted an Indian res in Sask for muleys, it was late November, but there was zero rutt activity and the deer acted like they were in fear mode 24-7 even the bucks, latter realized it was because they're hunted year round.

something to think about....

MarchMadness · Oct 18, 2012

Oregon Outdoor Councel! Check them out, might be the new OHA.
Get involve and pressure ODF&W to make changes. Definatly better as a big group than by yourself.

http://oregonoutdoorcouncil.org/

eelgrass · Oct 20, 2012

You good folks in eastern Oregon need to build up your herds. The wolf lovers are counting on you. The bigger the elk and deer numbers, the more wolf packs you can sustain.

Eel