250 dead tule elk!

POINT REYES, Calif. (AP) ? More than 250 tule elk died inside a fenced area at a Northern California seashore during a two-year period, and a lack of water is possibly the cause.

The National Park Service on Thursday confirmed the elk died inside a fenced elk preserve at California's Point Reyes National Seashore from 2012 to 2014.

The drought is likely causing the death, and the park is considering bringing in water for the animals, park wildlife ecologist David Press said.

"While we were out on the range conducting our annual census, we observed the ponds had gone dry. We are looking into options for carting water in, making sure there is water out there," Press said.

take your time... it's not like they are dying or anything.

jeezus.....a non government operation would be looking at jail time.

Great example of just how incompetent a person or group of persons could possibly be...

Hmm, they need water? Don't they get enough from licking leaves or something?

I hope the bastard doesn't have any pets!

Where is Federal Fish and Game on this travesty?

Joey

"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"

Jeezus. Govt workers at their finest. I wonder what Piper and the other scrotum liberals think about this.

"They need water?............we did not know that"......

"If you get upset or offended by ANY website forum
post.....especially mine, you need serious
intervention!"

perhaps that was there plan instead of adding tags,Im sure there are some farmers happy about that.

Here's an idea--how bout letting them out of the fenced enclosure to find water on their own which I have no doubt they would easily do in a heartbeat. Amazing thing about mammals is that they have an instinct to survive and only when government idiots intervene, do tragedies like this occur. Another classic example of govt ineptitude and mismanagement.

Criminals is what they are. Where's the outrage? If this was a private ranch and had anything to do with hunting it would be plastered all over the national news agencies!! The bleeding heart libs would be picketing and demanding that someone hang over something like this, where are they?

Amazing how dairy ranches have survived for 100 yrs. in the exact same area before the Feds came along. Sourkraut

First, it was the Center for Biological Diversity who sent out the intitial press release about the elk that died that started the string of articles, so the animal rights people are speaking out and loudly. Most people do not understand the background of the situation at Point Reyes. In fact there are two completely separate issues going on, let me see if I can clear up a few things. The fenced herd of elk (where they lost about 250 animals) was originally established as part of the tule elk preservation act back in 1970's. shortly after putting a group of elk there (that intermingled with cattle) they were found to have a background rate of Johne's disease. Because of that disease they could not be used to establish new herds in other areas of the state like some of the other fenced enclosures that were established. For years the Park Service used birth control to keep their numbers down, but this is intensive, time consuming, and expensive and has to be done forever and has also effects on the elk themselves (longer estrous, longer rut, hormones, etc). When they did their management plan back in the 90's or early 2000 they said they would no longer do birth control and they expected the population would fluctuate within the enclosure due to environmental conditions. So now you have a drought, there was not enough water (assuming that was the cause) and they lost some elk. But lets play devils advocate, you put water in and the 500 elk survive, now you have 600, 700, 800, etc. You run low on feed, so you bring in feed and water, 1,000, 1,2000, 1,5000 elk. A disease goes through and you lose 1,400 elk. These elk can not be moved to other areas of the state due to the presence of the disease. The Park is testing them as part of an ongoing process and so far all tests have been negative but there is no established protocol to certify them as disease free. The state will not move them unless it can call them disease free (to the extent possible) and potentially move a problem to a new area if they were in fact not disease free. The state is going to be conservative in that aspect. All the other fenced enclosures can have excess animals moved to free range situations to augment existing herds, currently Point Reyes can not. Now you have situation number two, the Park established a free range population some years ago but some of them did not stay in the wilderness area where they wanted them and came down to where the dairies are and cattle ranchers are. Elk being elk have slowly been growing. These are long term leases within the Park. Part of the reason the park was established was to preserve the ranching way of life in Marin County. It is my understanding that the original owners were going to sell to a developer and then sold to the Park, I do not know all the details on that aspect. This was all before elk were re-introduced there. The park is working on a comprehensive plan that includes elk and how they are going to proceed. If nothing is done the elk will continue to grow and further impact cattle and dairy operations within the park, and then eventually grow enough to leave park boundaries and start impacting other property owners (without some means of population control). Hope that at least tries to clear up some of the background

Joe

Johnes disease causes tuberculosis in humans cattle and birds. if they knew these animals were infected why didn't they kill them right from the start? I see no benefit in keeping an enclosed herd that is infected with this disease. This situation makes even less sense now.

Joe, as always, your input is much appreciated. I had even hoped that you would post up your thoughts and any further info on this matter.

No matter what Joe, you can't defend having 250+/- Tule Elke in a closed in area forcing them to die of thirst! Somebody screwed up big time and at the least, should no longer have their job!.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"

Whether anyone likes it or not, it is what happened. I would ask this, what is a different alternative? or what would you have done? Say you knew that they were dying of thirst (and that is a guess of what happened and they did not find them in the process of dying). During the annual counts they counted less elk than the year before. We can not move them, they are not going to do birth control, what is another option?
I believe there are benefits to having the fenced enclosures one of which is having public education on tule elk. Letting the public know that these elk are found only in California and explaining the history of them (interpretive center, signs, etc). You can argue whether you think the elk should be behind a fence, I will give you that. But, they are behind the fence and here are the constraints, we can not move them, they will eventually grow to numerous for the habitat (food and water) to support their numbers. What are the solutions you see? I have been working with the Park on the free range elk issue and will continue to do so, but I am always open to hear what other people would have done in that situation.

Joe

I know my suggestion won't be probable but it's practical. There are currently chicken and turkey farms in minnesota being exterminated and I suspect burned as they are infected with bird flu. The original idea and purpose of this park sounds fantastic, but it seems they lost their way at step 1 when they started with infected animals. Treat it like an infected lake kill it and restock it. However is this johnes disease like cwd in that it stays in the ecosystem for some time even with removing the animals? I don't know enough about the disease in that respect. Bottom line is they've fenced em in, now they have to take care of them, they can't let them suffer mass die offs from lack of food or water. If they had a clean line of elk it sounds like they could be capturing the surplus and relocatin/reestablishing tules all over the state as was originally intended. Sounds like there aren't many left in the park, might be a good time to start over.

If a guy poached just ONE of those elk, you'd see his ass lynched on Wild Justice with officer Boyd strangling him with piano wire until he puked blood and flatlined, yet no wildlife management official is held accountable?????

WAFJ.

California politics.... I'm sick and phuccckkkken tired of it.

I wanted to add that no one is happy that it happened. I am just trying to layout some other info on that particular group of animals.

Joe

Are those that manage these fenced in groups of Elk not held accountable if the elk die of gross mismanagement?

Dieing of thirst, i wouldn't want that for my worst enemy let alone a herd of what quite possibly could be one of California's most coveted and magnificent animals.

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"

This is precisely what happens when you guys try to play God. Long ago, there was this things that developed called NATURAL SELECTION. Those elk didn't contract that disease from the fence. They had it when they were incarcerated. It then spread amongst them because of the confines. In the wild, when an animal is sick and/or dying, it is left by the herd and while some may also contract the disease due to exposure, eventually the healthiest and strongest survive. When man tries to exercise his control over wildlife, things like this happen. What is so "deadly" about this disease? Apparently, all these elk were able to survive with it for a long time in the enclosure--only to die of thirst instead. Release the damn animals and let them live on their own devices. I guarantee you they wouldn't have died of thirst. Mother nature will take care of the rest.
As for the impact on dairy and other landowners around the park--TOO BAD! Guess what, that's the risk they assume when they lease property in a National Park. What a lame-brained idea anyway--for both lessor and lessee. Let me get this straight--the Park wanted to preserve the "ranching way of life" as long as it didn't include wildlife that was native and historical to the area??? You want a solution to the elk population problems and conflicts with landowners? How bout HUNTING?? Increase the number of tags instead of being so damn "proud" of your elk herd and keeping them captive away from hunters. I'd love to know how many tax dollars were spent on birth control, food, water, fencing, and all the other amenities trying to sustain a captive elk herd with no intention of releasing them into the wild.

LAST EDITED ON Apr-27-15 AT 11:22AM (MST)[p]Joe from DF&W asked, "I would ask this, what is a different alternative? or what would you have done? Say you knew that they were dying of thirst"

Joe, i come from a Ranch-Farm Family that once Homesteaded in the Mountain range North of Livermore, just East of Mt Diablo. My Grandfather ran several hundred head of cattle on what became a profitable family operation and i was one of his main helpers in keeping the ranch functional and in good repair. One of the main concerns that we dealt with yearly was to insure that our animals had a good clean source of water.

Wind mills, box springs with gravity flow, even electric pumps were all used to take water from underground springs and route it to water troughs. These were not expensive efforts on our part but they did require occasional monitoring.

Someone should have realized that there was a need for supplemental water as the drought situation got worse. Even one good source of water may have made a huge difference as animals will travel miles to get their water. Had the need for this water gone public before the allowed carnage, i'm sure there would have been hundreds of volunteers and some materials donated in efforts to save these animals.

Wild Game Herd management should never include having the animals die of thirst. Elk Venison is highly prized table fare and becoming popular at high end restaurants across this land. I'm sure that there could be a once a year harvest, just one possibility or suggestion, by a contractor of such things, to take out the desired amount of surplus animals, control proper numbers according to habitat holding capacity, and possibly make a little money towards the management of these animals in the process.

I'm no expert, other than my major at Univ of Arizona was Natural Resource Recreation to become a Game Warden and my ranching background, and i do realize that there must be countless rules and Regs that can tie a persons hands and block efforts. Still though, one just can't let animals die of thirst and say oh well, darn it anyhow...

Joey


"It's all about knowing what your firearms practical limitations are and combining that with your own personal limitations!"

Joe,

I really have no problem with them dying.....awful things happen. My only problem with this entire thing is that if a private entity had let this happen they would be strung up...and you know it.....F&G would be right in the middle of it too screaming and crying like little girls. The double standard is the problem.

JB

....and by the way Joe....when is that wind wolves archery hunt gonna start....

So, we have a population of elk fenced in and the only out come is for them to die of starvation, disease, or lack of water from over population? And the stated purpose of these elk is to educate the public about the importance of elk? Really?

It's my own opinion, but I believe that the only reason to have these elk is so that people can bring their kids out to see some tame elk and make anti-hunters out of them. If a vehicle was put into place to "harvest" excess animals you can bet that the little kids would be insulated from it. Sustainable harvest by man is not part of modern teaching in California.

Eel

It's written in the good Book that we'll never be asked to take more than we can. Sounds like a good plan, so bring it on!

>I wanted to add that no
>one is happy that it
>happened. I am just
>trying to layout some other
>info on that particular group
>of animals.
>
>Joe
So if Sea World wanted to empty the water and leave the whales dry ,that would work to? you can bet that would be stopped.

Should have killed the diseased animals from the start keeping them alive makes no sense.....

Like with all things California when you really dig to the root of this problem politics and spineless politicians will be to blame.

I am sure most of us would want an opportunity for a youth or even senior to harvest an elk in the preserve. What effects would meat from these infected animals have on anyone who ate the meat?