Where did the Owens Valley elk disappear to.

saddlesorerider

Active Member
Messages
138
I opened the Big Game Book to look at the proposed Elk hunts up along RT 395 and found that most of them are gone. I've been applying for them since before the points program started with no luck. Bull tags for Tinemaha Mountain, West Tinemaha, Whitney, and Bishop have totally disappeared and we are left with 4 archery, 1 Muzzy, and 4 rifle tags.
Am I reading this right and if I am, where did all the elk go??
 
Man! I just saw that. Thanks for bringing it up. I'm on the website now and I see they have cancelled ALL the elk fort hunter ligget hunts as well!
 
I just emailed Joe Hobbs from cdfw, he's "senior environmental specialist" for elk. I asked specifically about this. I will report what / if he replies. I too apply here but for the random bishop tag, not enough points for much chances.
 
I got an email from G and F about the Hunter Liggett hunts being cancelled due to training in the area where most of the elk are harvested. :(

Cancer doesn't discriminate...don't take your good health for granted because it can be gone in a heartbeat. Please go back and read the last line. This time really understand what it says.
 
I've got max points but it looks like it won't help me this year. Only Lone Pine bull and Owens Valley archery have more than one tag. All the other hunts are just 1 tags so random draw and that Bishop hunt is gone. I struck out in the AZ and NM draws so I thought I had a chance here in CA.
 
It's getting to the point that it's almost not worth applying for big game in CA. And i'm a resident with max pts for three of the four species. To make matters worse, the liberal wacos are in the process of passing some of the most extreme anti-gun laws that we have seen.
 
Any of you in northern ca that may be under a rock look up soj51 on the Google. Tell your friends and talk about it. More than likely the tag reduction is a reflection of heard health. Don't know any biologist down there but the deer ologist in this area know there stuff and are hunters themselves. Doesn't mean the commission listens to them though.
 
My hunting partner had a Tinemaha cow tag about 5 years ago. He followed a herd of about 40 animals up the mountain and ran into a larger herd up on top. Lots of buls. That heard expanded and that zone changed in to 3 zones Tinemaha, Tinemaha west, and Tinemaha mountain. Now there is just 1 archery bull tag.
 
It's imperative that California increase it's elk herds to allow for the expansion of as many wolves as possible.

You all know this, right?
 
LAST EDITED ON May-09-16 AT 09:27AM (MST)[p] So??Here is MY OPINION/OBSERVATION on the tule elk deal in the Owens Valley. I am no biologist and have only lived here, with these elk, for about 70 years, so I could be wrong.

There are as many elk here today as there have ever been in the past 30 years. More mature bulls than ever. There are at least 3 herds of bulls, of a dozen or more, that don't even participate in rut activity, due to so much competition. Mature bulls outnumber MATURE cows by about 3 to 1.

The overall population of tule elk in the Owens Valley far exceeds the FEDERAL mandate, set when this herd was first relocated here.

The local biologist has a hard and fast rule that says.."if I don't see them, they do not exist"?.Problem with that is, he doesn't have/spend the time to go look at the herds. No money budgeted for that.

They do their annual count with an airplane at about 11 am, around July 8th??possibly the hottest day of the year, and don't find many animals standing around in the 108 degree heat.

Truth is, it would take a week for 3 or 4 DFW guys to see EVERY animal we have here, but there is "no money".

Go figure?..last fall, DFW had 30+ people, 24 vehicles, and a $4,000 an hour helicopter, here to capture, collar and move 12 bighorn sheep to Yosemite??.where the sheep would already have been if they WANTED to go there.

They kept the people here thru the weekend in hotels, but didn't work for 2 days. I can't even imagine what that project must have cost. Half those sheep were back here in a week and the other half were "cat food".

Sierra Nevada sheep generate NO revenue to DFW, but the funding for THIS project came from the DFW budget??..NO money for an elk count, which ultimately does generate funding?

This is "wildlife management" with ZERO emphasis on hunters and hunting?..you can clearly see where this is going. I give it 5 years, and there will be NO hunting in this State.

Another issue is that, supposedly, there are too many elk in the Grizzly Island herd, so instead of simply managing that herd on its own population, the DFW added tags to Grizzly Islands quota and subtracted the same number from the Owens Valley herd??with apparently NO STUDY of the latter.

And now, the Hunter Liggett elk hunt is off the menu, and I don't see those 12 tags being allocated elsewhere??Hmmmmm.

This is all simply my OPINION?.shared by several local ranchers, hunters and assorted "nature fakers"?..and opinions are worth exactly what you paid for them.


"If you get upset or offended by ANY website forum
post.....especially mine, you need serious
intervention!"
 
Hobbs, Joe@Wildlife <[email protected]>
Today at 7:40 AM

Message body

Bob,


Thanks for the question. After reviewing survey and telemetry data the Region did not issue tags in some zones in the Owens Valley and overall tags in the Owens Valley are reduced from last year. Pretty straight forward, counted less elk equal issued less tags. The Owens Valley is the only elk herd in the state that has a mandated cap of 490 animals. To stay below this cap in previous years harvest was more aggressive and now we are well below the cap so the Region has issued less tags. Hope that makes sense, if you have other questions just give me a call or shoot me an e-mail.


Thanks Joe

Joe Hobbs

California Department of Fish and Wildlife

Elk and Antelope Coordinator

1812 9th Street

Sacramento, CA 95811

(916) 445-9992
 
Nickman Thanks for the info and pretty much what I was thinking. I started this thread because I thought there may have been a die off due to disease. One year we are increasing tags as the elk start to expand to new areas and establish new herds and the next year the F&G says the elk are gone. I also agree about the bull population. When I was on that Tinehama cow hunt with a friend a couple years ago there were a lot more bulls than cows.
 
>It's imperative that California increase it's
>elk herds to allow for
>the expansion of as many
>wolves as possible.
>
>You all know this, right?

Hobbs knows
 
>HUNTERS........this is CALIFORNIA.
>sad sad sad
+1,They write new gun laws under the green house gas laws!
 
Let me try to set a few things correct. Typically elk surveys in the Owens Valley (OV) are flown in the summer with a fixed-wing plane and ground counts. This method has been utilized for a very long time. On occasion a helicopter is used. Since the helicopter crash and death of all those on board some years ago our use of the helicopter had been curtailed until recently (new protocol and contractor). This year in January a helicopter survey was flown for elk in the OV as well.
In March of 2015 29 elk in the OV were outfitted with GPS satellite collars, and in 2016 around 6-10 additional elk were outfitted with GPS collars (trying to remember numbers off the top of my head). These are in addition to the collars placed in 2011 in and around Tinemaha and Tinemaha Mountain. Surveys were flown for three days and using mark and re-site from observed collars an estimate was derived.
I will tell everyone this, changing tag quotas in one area in no way whatsoever influences tag quotas in another. Grizzly Island is at all time high for population levels and tags are issued accordingly. The Department has no control over what Fort Hunter Liggett does for their hunt program. If anyone has questions or wants additional information I would be more than willing to try and answer them or provide them with information.

Thanks

Joe
[email protected] 916 445-9992

Different programs use different funding sources. The Big Game programs (deer, elk, pig, bear, bighorn sheep (hunted)) have funds from a dedicated account from tag sales. We also have funds from The Federal Aid in Wildlife Restoration Act (also known as the Pittman-Robertson Act (PR)). Some projects are paid out of the Big Game Account and others out of PR. When you see someone working on a different species (such as owls, chipmunks, etc) the funds for those activities are not Big Game Funds.
Having been on numerous captures with the helicopter I can tell you that it is no fun to be weathered out but it happens and will continue to happen. Most captures take place in winter and in winter there is more weather to contend with. If I am 8 hours from home on a capture and we are weathered out I am getting paid. I am also most likely working in the hotel on my laptop on the never ending paperwork. Each capture is a bit different depending on what the goal is. Typically, if we are just putting out collars and not bringing animals into base camp the contract helicopter crew does it all and we will only have a couple people in base camp to coordinate collars and monitor activity. If animals are being brought into base camp so they can be examined (checked for pregnancy with an ultra sound or things like that) then you will have more people in camp. If animals are being moved then you will have additional people as well.
 
Joe thanks for the info, I know public speculation of government work isn't always correct. I did notice however you didn't mention anything about future wolves.
 
Not sure what there is really to mention about wolves at this point in time. There are only a handful within the state, the elk harvest in that zone stayed the same and is fairly conservative (most of our elk tag quotas are). In most areas elk are filling in within historical range and a limited harvest still encourages elk expansion and growth while maintaining public use. Wolves are listed, not a lot is going to happen while they are listed.

Joe
 
I know the wolves will never be hunted in CA but if a pack were to get established here the little over 300 tags that are issued to hunters will be consumed by wolves. Some above posts eluded to that and my question is, are the elk tags going to start getting cut to make room for wolves?
 
Nice job on the typical govt dance-around. You failed to answer the reason for the tag decreases though. I find it hard to believe that all these herds suddenly took a dramatic population hit.
 
>I know the wolves will never
>be hunted in CA but
>if a pack were to
>get established here the little
>over 300 tags that are
>issued to hunters will be
>consumed by wolves. Some above
>posts eluded to that and
>my question is, are the
>elk tags going to start
>getting cut to make room
>for wolves?
Yes! but we will have hogs to hunt.
 
Tule elk, it sounds like you may have been involved in the sheep transplant to Yosimite. Are Nickmans accounts spot on? Thanks
 
I do not believe I danced around the question at all. Tags were reduced in the Owens Valley due to the elk surveys. Tags have been reduced over the last several years in the Owens Valley. There are no wolves close to the Owens Valley. There are no plans to reduce our elk harvest to allow wolves to expand. Our harvest in the area where wolves exists is very minimal and would not make a bit of difference in whether they stay here. I know there are groups who would like nothing better than to have the elk hunts cancelled on the pretext of wolves but that is not what the Elk program is going to do. I have added new hunts when it was feasible and I also change tags when our surveys show increases or decreases. I am not going to try to convince you of that, I think if you look at the past hunts and tags it will become pretty clear. Has everything been perfect? no it has not and I will be the first to admit it is difficult to get things accomplished in government. There are a lot of road blocks to do anything. That being said I believe I have tried to increase opportunity whenever it has been warranted. There are always going to be people who see it different and have their view of the situation. If everybody saw everything the same my job would be very easy. If there are more questions or something you think I did not answer then I encourage you to call me and ask so I can explain in an easier format.

Thanks

Joe
916 445-9992
 
I was not involved in the sheep plants in Yosemite. That is a nongame program and not run out of the Big Game Program in Sacramento. I have no idea on how many people attended or what happened. I can tell you that typically with the helicopter they try to maximize its time in an area. I know when they put on the collars for elk in the Owens Valley they combined it with Sheep and deer collaring. Many times the sheep areas get winded out early in the day and then they will move to lower areas where the wind is not as strong and work on collaring deer and elk as they encounter them. The helicopter is expensive and off the top of my head costs about $1,500 an hour of rotor time. They get paid when they fly but do receive a base amount but if they are not flying they are not making much money. I do not work on the helicopter contract so take my estimates as that, just estimates. I get invoices for my captures and survey (different contract for both). I do find it interesting that the Department gets flack when people think we don't do anything and then flack when the Department does something they think is costly. Helicopter contracts are sent out to bid and then scored and ranked to determine who gets the bid.

I have been on a lot of captures and there is a fair amount of standing around with time slots of chaos and running around and busy as a bee. I have started captures hours before daylight to go over safety and assignments and then had people drive elk to translocation points and not get back until the middle of the night. It is easy to view a situation from one point in time and come to a conclusion that it is inefficient. They could even be right. I have listened to accounts of operations I have been involved with that were no where near accurate and was thinking the person must be talking about something else. People must also realize the Department is large and covers a lot of different areas and has a lot of different funding sources. Not everything is paid for with hunting and fishing dollars.
For what it is worth.

Joe
 
Not sure what you are asking here? The State has 3 fundraising elk tags. One is used in the random drawing for the $5 a chance and it is at Grizzly Island this year. We have two other fund raising elk tags that are auctioned off from non-profits such as Mule Deer or CDA. They can keep up to 5% (I think) of the proceeds and the rest comes back to the Department and is deposited into the Big Game Account. Let me know if this is what you are asking.

Thanks

Joe
 
LAST EDITED ON May-11-16 AT 12:16PM (MST)[p]Joe,
Thanks for all your information. I appreciate it.
 
"Joe, Thanks for all your information. I appreciate it !"

Yeah, +1, it ain't always peaches n cream but your input as "the authority" is very welcome and most appreciated. Thanks Joe!


Joey

Keep your slimy Paws Off My, Yours, Our,.. Public Land!!!
 
Joe takes the time to come here and respond to questions, much more than most game agencies do in what are considered more hunting friendly states than Cali. Have to give him credit for that.
 
LOL!?.it's like the computer adage??."garbage in?garbage out".

Meaning if the info hitting your desk is not accurate then your final report is inaccurate as well.
I think Joe is a good PR guy and has the nards to come on here and explain things.

I'm done, carry on!


"If you get upset or offended by ANY website forum
post.....especially mine, you need serious
intervention!"
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos

California Guides & Outfitters

Western Wildlife Adventures

Offering some fine Blacktail Deer hunting, Wild Pig hunts, Turkey hunts and Waterfowl hunts.

Urge 2 Hunt

We offer the top private land hunts in all of California, for blacktail deer, elk, pigs, bison and turkeys.

G & J Outdoors

Offering Tule elk hunts for bulls and cows on a 17,000 acre Ranch in Laytonville, CA with 100% success.

Back
Top Bottom