The Silver Lining.

NeMont · Mar 17, 2017

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/con...uld-take-huge-hit-gop-healthcare-plan-n734951

Quote:
-The Republican healthcare plan could signal the beginning of the end for employer-based healthcare insurance, a perk that millions of Americans take for granted.

Getting the Employers out of health insurance and the giant tax expenditure associated with Employer based plans should be job one of any reform.

What ever goes on in the individual market bleeds over into the group market and vice versa.

Nemont

Togwotee · Mar 17, 2017

I agree 100%. nothing makes people care like skin in the game.

The entitlement mentality of employees is every bit as bad as that of the welfare bum.

Stay Thirsty My Friends

DW · Mar 17, 2017

>
>I agree 100%. nothing
>makes people care like skin
>in the game.
>
> The entitlement mentality of employees
>is every bit as bad
>as that of the welfare
>bum.
>
>
>
>Stay Thirsty My Friends

From someone in the most subsidized industry in the country. Only the Indians are more subsidized.

NeMont · Mar 17, 2017

>From someone in the most subsidized
>industry in the country. Only
>the Indians are more subsidized.
>

So because Agriculture is subsidized that means we shouldn't touch anyone else's subsidy? Or are you saying that because Ag. is subsidized then nobody in Ag. should get a say in our policy? Or are you just spouting off due to boredom and that you don't really care that Employer plans are part of the problem in our system?

Nemont

DW · Mar 17, 2017

Let me simplify it for you, pot....kettle.

NeMont · Mar 17, 2017

Do you build houses? How much would taking away the mortgage interest deduction hurt home buyer and builders?

Nemont

DW · Mar 17, 2017

Was I commenting on entitlement mentalities and welfare bums?

NeMont · Mar 17, 2017

I see you pot is different when called out by a kettle.

DW · Mar 17, 2017

How so? Again, I wasn't the hypocritical one stuffing my face and complaining someone else was eating too.

NeMont · Mar 17, 2017

So your industry and you receive no Taxpayer largesse at all, zero?

Nemont

Togwotee · Mar 17, 2017

When you were stuffing your face it was with what you called subsidized food.

The "very small " as Trump would say farm subsidy is an investment not a subsidy . a cheap stabile food supply is what you've received for a minimal cost. but this is another subject.

So anyway, the freebie employer funded insurance tax crap needs to stop. just pay a wage and let the employee pay the taxes and buy his own insurance on the open market like the rest of us. what better way to create a common interest in solving what is now an unsolvable chitmess.

Stay Thirsty My Friends

notags2 · Mar 17, 2017

I thought the rocket scientist TOG claimed to be Indian ? So tell me TOG do u get the Indian welfare and the AG welfare ?

eelgrass · Mar 17, 2017

I think they said that about Obamacare too.

That should save Tog a ton of money at harvest time.

I hope it carries over to all Federal, State, and local employees too. And Congress.

DW · Mar 17, 2017

LAST EDITED ON Mar-17-17 AT 06:53PM (MST)[p]>
>
>
>When you were stuffing your
>face it was with what
>you called subsidized food.
>
>The "very small "
>as Trump would say farm
>subsidy is an investment not
>a subsidy . a
>cheap stabile food supply is
>what you've received for a
>minimal cost. but this is
>another subject.
>
>
> So anyway, the
>freebie employer funded insurance tax
>crap needs to stop.
>just pay a wage and
>let the employee pay the
>taxes and buy his
>own insurance on the open
>market like the rest of
>us. what better
>way to create a common
>interest in solving what is
>now an unsolvable chitmess.
>

>
>Stay Thirsty My Friends

I shoot alot, I raise some, and I grow some. Not saying I don't buy any cause I do. Truth is I got alotta farmer friends. No poor ones, a poor farmer isn't in business long. But I don't let them slide on the amount of subsidies they get, many most have never heard of. I don't have a problem with the farm subsidies,of which there are many, and the cost is not minimal. I have a problem with someone perched on a pile of subsidies belly achin about somebody else gettin subsidised. But then bein a hypocrite is popular with the left.

And please tell us how ending employer provided insurance is the magic bullet that will lower health care costs and insurance premiums and deductibles. If you believe that I still got that bridge I'm trying to sell.

DW · Mar 17, 2017

>So your industry and you receive
>no Taxpayer largesse at all,
>zero?
>
>
>Nemont

Do you like making elkassassins point?

notags2 · Mar 18, 2017

I didn't think TOG would want to respond since he gets nothing but hand outs right down to his Obama phone. A question for NEMO and TOG though. I guess you are saying no more health care for our vets right ?

NeMont · Mar 18, 2017

Notags,

Do you understand the difference between employer sponsored group insurance and government funded plans like the VA, Tricare, Medicare, Medicaid and Indian Health Service?

No where in any of this has the VA been discussed or mentioned.

Nemont

notags2 · Mar 18, 2017

Ya. But I kinda thought so. You guys don't want any government employees getting health care other than the ones you chose. Right or wrong ?

NeMont · Mar 18, 2017

Are veterans Government employees? What about those on medicare or Indian healh service?

Here is where the discussion comes off the rails. Can we agree that there is a vast difference between Health care (how we get services from Docs and hospitals) and Health Insurance (Ie the financing of health care claims through sharing of risk)?

The Obamacare law and now Trumpcare bill do not address much in the way of government health care programs. They both try to address health insurnace. Neither successfully.

Employer sponsored plans and how we allow them tax free contributions lead to all kinds of problems in the systme including over utilization because people don't see the true cost. Getting rid of this would greatly help Americans realize both the full cost and the scope of the problem.

Nemont

notags2 · Mar 18, 2017

I agree with some of that yes. But answer this question. Do you think government employees should have health care benefits ? Simple question. I believe an FBI or ATF agent should be just as entitled to health care as our veterans. Just my opinion. And what about local fire fighters paramedics and police officers ?

NeMont · Mar 18, 2017

why doesn't the government provide them with all the other insurance products that these employees use: homeowners, auto, boat, motor cycle, etc etc? Why stop with health insurance?

How can you be for a "free market" but want employers deciding what people get for insurance? If a one size fits all solution is bad for individuals why is it okay for employees?

Why aren't government employees smart enough to choose a plan that meets what they and/or their family's needs are? Couldn't the government boost their employees pay if they weren't contributing so much to the health plan and those employees use that money to decide how to spend those dollars? You know like in a free market?

Nemont

notags2 · Mar 18, 2017

Also NEMO do you have any idea the costs American hospitals are having because they have to treat illegal aliens who come in to the ER with gun shot wounds, stab wounds over doses etc ? Who do you think is paying for that treatment. If you don't think that problem is every bit as big as the over utilization of health care services by insured people you are very mistaken.

notags2 · Mar 18, 2017

Absolutely . I agree with that. But also what about fair is fair. People will want to know why veterans get free health insurance and others don't. Who is it that should make that call ?

264mag · Mar 18, 2017

>Also NEMO do you have any
>idea the costs American hospitals
>are having because they have
>to treat illegal aliens who
>come in to the ER
>with gun shot wounds, stab
>wounds over doses etc ?
> Who do you think
>is paying for that treatment.
> If you don't think
>that problem is every bit
>as big as the over
>utilization of health care services
>by insured people you are
>very mistaken.
plus disability payments for life.

NeMont · Mar 18, 2017

>Also NEMO do you have any
>idea the costs American hospitals
>are having because they have
>to treat illegal aliens who
>come in to the ER
>with gun shot wounds, stab
>wounds over doses etc ?
> Who do you think
>is paying for that treatment.
> If you don't think
>that problem is every bit
>as big as the over
>utilization of health care services
>by insured people you are
>very mistaken.

Illegal are an entire different discussion. I am fine with repealing the law Reagan signed about ER treatment for all.

notags2 · Mar 18, 2017

NEMO I don't claim to have ANY answers to the health care problem in our country but I also think the problem is much bigger than just government employee health care insurance plans. My god do you have any idea how much money hospitals waste on food for doctor lounges ? How about some of the BS trips hospital CEO'S take and call it training? I do believe the health care system in this country is in serious trouble but I don't think cutting out employer health care insurance plans will fix much if any of it.

NeMont · Mar 18, 2017

LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-17 AT 11:24AM (MST)[p]>Absolutely . I agree with that.
> But also what about
>fair is fair. People
>will want to know why
>veterans get free health insurance
>and others don't. Who
>is it that should make
>that call ?

Are you paying attention? Who is asking about veterans getting health care?

Remember the above discussion that health care and health insurance are not and should not be synonymous?
Can you point me to which company and what actuary underwrites the risk of veterans getting health insurance? As I understand it the VA provides health care not health insurance to eligible veterans.

I am talking about health insurance provided by an employer based upon a person being employed by said employer. Why should any employer decide what health plan you should buy? If pooling is cheaper why are there not other insurance products pooled and offered by your employer? why not group auto coverage, group home owners coverage etc.?

Nemont

NeMont · Mar 18, 2017

Okay explain then why everyone who purchases health insurance on the individual market should be free to exercise choice in a "free market" system but people with employer paid plans are not?

You are bringing all kinds of other issues up to avoid answering why you believe a free market should only apply to some and not other American citizens.

Nemont

notags2 · Mar 18, 2017

No NEMO I am not avoiding anything. You seem to think by eleminating public employee or any employer provided health care will help the problem with our fu..Ed up health care system. Sorry you are not that smart ! It isn't going to help squat ! And I believe since you have mentioned a GI bill in your past that is why you think it is ok veterans get health care and no one else should. Kinda like TOG is to chicken chit to say anything about the hand outs he is getting.

NeMont · Mar 18, 2017

LAST EDITED ON Mar-18-17 AT 12:19PM (MST)[p]

You need to go back and read what I actually wrote. I will rephrase it so it might be more understandable.

Can we agree that if you tax something then generally you get less of that product or service? Basic economics says that raising the price through taxes, ceteris Paribas, people consume less.

By masking the true cost of health insurance by not taxing it as income means Americans over consume and over demand health care. Putting both group and individual health insurance buyers on equal footing in regards to those benefits and how they are taxed would aid in bringing down costs.

The test is this: if health insurance benefit contributions lost their tax free status, how many employers would offer them still?

I never said it would fix everything in the system but it would help immensely to provide a more transparent transaction between the individual and the insurance company of their choice. In addition it would make for a more open and free market for everybody and it wouldn't depend on who you worked for. It would also free up vast sums of money for wage increases and business investment.

The only way to have a functioning market is for it to be a market.

Public employees and veterans are not in the same boat. Veterans served their country and that country promised them HEALTH CARE, not health insurance. Public employees should be treated the same as private employees and both should be treated the same as the people who don't get the insurance from an employer.
Nemont

notags2 · Mar 18, 2017

We agree totally if we look at your statement and that statement only. However this isn't a perfect world. Yes let's look at government employees. A city pays nothing for health care benefits. They would save a lot of money. IF they paid employees more because of that I believe it would work. Now do I think it would work ? HE.. NO ! Politicians run cities. If they had more money available to them do I think it would go to employees ? NO !! It would go to BS political agendas. I know I do not want some dumb arse who is to stupid to pick his nose being the fire fighter that responds when someone is in need of life or death treatment ! Your basic statements about economics are true. Sure supply and demand it isn't ever gunna change. I believe the problem is much bigger than small pieces here and there. Like I said I agree our system is a mess. I do not have the definite answer. Do i think trump does ? Oh HE.. NO !! I don't believe any politician does!

NeMont · Mar 18, 2017

So let me understand, public employees can't vote with their feet? If better pay isn't part of the equation you still are required to work there?

If we want to attempt to make system more functional for all getting rid of employers sponsored plans would be one piece that would help.

Nemont

notags2 · Mar 18, 2017

No NEMO you totally missed that point. Smart qualified people won't be working as fire fighters and paramedics. Come on NEMO. I think you can understand that. And no I don't think your idea will make a dang bit of difference. None! In the most simple form if you have an internal combustion engine it needs fuel and ignition source compression and timing . If all are missing and you fix one it still does not run.

NeMont · Mar 18, 2017

http://www.heritage.org/health-care...m-changing-the-tax-treatment-health-insurance

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/brie...sion-employer-sponsored-health-insurance-work

https://www.mercatus.org/publication/tax-exemption-employer-provided-health-insurance

It isn't just me who says it.

Nemont

Togwotee · Mar 18, 2017

There needs to be a fundamental shift in the way americans look at healthcare . the best way to do that is to put everyone at the same disadvantage and that starts with the employer funded insurance tax loophole.

We decided years ago no child would go without an education. staying alive should rise to the same degree of importance. and why did that happen? because most people didn't have their employer paying for their kid's education.

This matter isn't complicated if you look at how to fix it rather than just how to leave people behind.

Stay Thirsty My Friends

RELH · Mar 18, 2017

You want better health care, be able to make Congress and all other politicians go on the same plan as every citizen and you will see better health care within a year's time.

RELH