Health Care

dirtygrass

Active Member
Messages
623
At this point everyone is bitching about health care whether your for Trumpcare or Obamacare doesn't really matter. I really don't know anything about the inner working of healthcare except for my plan. I've been thinking and researching about a better way to do it for a while now. In my opinion there is really only two ways to run health care:

1. Everyone gets free healthcare.
2. You pay for health care or you don't get treatment.

Really haven't come to a conclusion of the fallout or $$ of either option, but if I wreck my care and don't have insurance no one pays to fix my car.

Just curious what everyone thinks.
 
I'm with Nemont, I like the idea of taking away the pre tax health insurance premiums for employees. That will put more money into the system and employees won't take health care from employers for granted anymore. That sh!t is expensive
 
You're pretty much exactly right Dirty. Nobody wants to see people not get the care they need because they can't afford to pay for expensive procedures and drugs and nobody wants to pay higher taxes to cover other people either. Guess what though? You're already paying more because other people can't if you're on private and everyone's taxes are higher already to help pay for Medicare.

Our debt continues to grow out of control but I think there is a way that single payer could work that wouldn't drive more debt. Everyone has to have skin in the game to the extent it is possible for them. Illegals need to kick rocks, period! Absolutely no coverage whatsoever for illegals. Doctors might just have to get paid a little less, I don't think they'll quit. What else would they do flip burgers?
 
Crossing the Border for Care

Frustrated by long waits, some Canadians are heading to the U.S. for medical treatment.



By Randi Druzin | Contributor

Aug. 3, 2016, at 5:46 a.m.




TORONTO ? When Sharon Shamblaw was diagnosed last summer with a form of blood cancer that could only be treated with a particular stem cell transplant, the search for a donor began. A Toronto hospital, 100 miles east of her home in St. Mary's, Ontario, and one of three facilities in the province that could provide the life-saving treatment, had an eight-month waiting list for transplants.

Four months after her diagnosis, Shamblaw headed to Buffalo, New York, for treatment. But it was too late. She died at the age of 46, leaving behind a husband and three children, as detailed by the Toronto Star.

Frustrated with their much-maligned health-care system, many Americans look at the Canadian system with admiration. While promoting his 2007 movie "Sicko," for example, filmmaker Michael Moore called on his compatriots to "push politicians to pass legislation so that [Americans could have] the system they have in, say, Canada."

But such intense admiration may be misguided.

[READ: Canada seen as offering best quality of life in the world]

To be sure, Canada's publicly funded system provides individuals with preventative care and medical treatment from primary-care physicians along with access to hospitals and other important medical services. Universal health care is a source of collective pride in Canada, which boasts one of the highest life expectancies and lowest infant mortality rates in the world.

However, the Canadian health-care system is far from perfect, and its shortcomings are a hot-button topic north of the 49th parallel.

Contrary to popular belief among Americans, health care is not entirely free for Canadians. Dental, ambulance and many other services as well as prescription medications must be paid for out of pocket or they're covered through a combination of public programs and private health insurance. About two-thirds of Canadians have such insurance.

The Commonwealth Fund, a U.S. think tank, released a report two years ago ranking Canada 10th out of 11 wealthy nations in terms of health care. Only the United States fared worse. The report, based largely on satisfaction surveys by patients and health-care providers, placed Canada last in timeliness of care. The United Kingdom was ranked No. 1

Few Canadians would be surprised by that finding. A visitor spending an afternoon in a coffee shop anywhere between Vancouver and St. John's would likely come across at least one person complaining about waiting months for an MRI on his knee or an appointment with an ears, nose and throat specialist.

Canadians seek treatment abroad

The Fraser Institute, a Canadian public policy think tank, estimates that 52,513 Canadians received non-emergency medical treatment in the U.S. and other countries in 2014, a 25 percent jump from the roughly 41,838 who sought medical care abroad the previous year.

Global Millennials Rank Canada as No. 1 Country

In citing those numbers in its 2015 report, "Leaving Canada for Medical Care," the organization said difficulties in obtaining timely medical care at home is, increasingly, leading Canadians to seek it abroad. "It is possible [they] may have left the country to avoid some of the adverse medical consequences of waiting for care, such as worsening of their condition, poorer outcomes following treatment, disability, or death," the report says. "Some may leave simply to avoid delay and to make a quicker return to normal life."

Canadians could expect to wait 9.8 weeks for medically necessary treatment after seeing a specialist in 2014, the researchers found, three weeks more than the time physicians considered to be clinically "reasonable."


The public health care system sends some Canadians abroad for treatment partly because of a lack of available local resources, the report says.

[READ: The U.S. does not have the best health-care system]


Ontario, the country's most populous province, provides a good example. The three hospitals that use stem-cell therapy to treat patients with blood disorders and aggressive cancers like the one that Sharon Shamblaw battled are unable to keep up with the soaring demand. So patients are sent to medical facilities in Buffalo, Cleveland, Ohio, and Detroit, Michigan, for the potentially life-saving treatment.

"We don't yet have the capacity to serve all the patients who require allogeneic stem-cell transplants," says Dr. Michael Sherar, president and CEO of Cancer Care Ontario, referring to the treatment that uses donor stem cells. He describes the arrangement with the U.S. facilities as "an interim solution" and says it will likely end within two years, when Canadian centers have the necessary personnel, infrastructure and funding in place. "Working out all these things takes time," he says. "Capacity cannot be increased overnight."

A recent spike in government funding will help matters.

Dr. Ralph Meyer, president of Juravinski Hospital and Cancer Centre, one of the three facilities in Ontario that provide stem cell treatment, says he's not aware of other arrangements like this one, in which Canadians are sent to the U.S. for potentially life-saving therapies because they are unavailable at home.


But Meyer acknowledges that some Canadians head to the U.S. for experimental therapies or faster access to treatment that is beneficial though not curative or life saving. Hip replacement surgery and other orthopaedic procedures are among treatments that fall into this category.

"In a public health system, you have to balance the high desire to get quality-of-life treatment as soon as possible with the need to deliver universal health care in an equitable manner." If the priority is universal health care, Meyer says, there is a risk of wait times.

But not everyone sees it that way.

"Canadians often think that the long wait times and bureaucratic roadblocks we experience are simply the price we pay to have a system that is fair and free? but the world tells us otherwise," journalist Michael Bolen wrote in The Huffington Post. He noted that in the Commonwealth Fund report, European countries with universal health care systems that use a hybrid of private and public models have shorter wait times and are ranked higher overall.

"So we're better than The United States," he wrote, referring to the rankings. "But should we really aim so low?"
 
Not sure how it would end up but..if you didn't get treatment without a healthcare plan, you think people would buy insurance? I was poor as crap when I got married and we always had health insurance.
 
We're headed for single payer national health care. It's just not worth the fight anymore.

The government will own you. They love you though, so it should be fine.
 
I'll ask one more time, and I expect no answer.

Why do we accept socialized education but not health care?


The rest of the world has passed us by on health care and they're laughing at us fighting the inevitable.













Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
How's socialized education workin out for us? Are we the world's leader in education?
 
Our education system is outstanding, if you don't count the minorities in our test scores we are number one in the world in education. I compared all the test scores from Colorado K-12 without minorities, took the percentage differential and applied it to our world ranking. Don't be fooled by the Charter School BS either, charter school test scores are far below normal schools in Colorado. You think the schools in Japan educate the kids that don't value education like the US does.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-17 AT 11:51AM (MST)[p]If a frog had Wings he wouldn't bump his arse. Public school teacher dirtygrass?
 
Isn't there still a thriving private school industry even though public school is offered to all?

Nemont
 
So?

If everybody got basic health care but those who could afford to buy more do what exactly are you losing?

How is that different then health insurance today?


Nemont
 
I am not a teacher, I went through public schools, all my sisters went through public schools, my kids went through public schools, all my friends went through public schools and everyone of us is successful. Public school is just like living in the US, its what you make of it. If you don't want to be successful, don't! The problem I see is Parents don't parent and they are not involved. I coached three sports for 12 years. I saw parents form the high school wrestling team for the first time at the free banquet at the end of the season, never saw them once during the season.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-23-17 AT 01:42PM (MST)[p]Couldn't agree more dirtygrass. Had pretty much the same experience. I've always said if the parents don't instill discipline and they don't allow the teachers to discipline them then we have a bunch of undisciplined kids with no reason or incentive to learn.
 
Apples and Tuesday. people could improve their health but they can't prevent all illnesses.

If our education system is so bad shut it down. send the kids home. if they can afford an education they go to school if they can't ##### them it's not my problem. now I sound just like a republican on health care . if any of you wingnuts disagree GFYS because that's exactly what your freedom caucus is after.






I say have socialized medicine for all, and if you can afford it you can buy whatever the hell health care you desire on your own dime. problem solved.















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
Agreed, wtf, stay focused, this is about our health and the correct approach to contain costs, improve access, and removing the huge financial burden off the shoulders of the everyday citizen.

Private policies will still be available and that would probably be a huge market for insurers as they exist in the the other 29 industrialized nations. Again, another reason Bernie had it right and had my support.

These changes are going to effect the poorest of the poor in the bible belt states and those folks are white, christian, and vote Republican, why? Who knows? They always get the wrong end of the stick under R administration.

You want to end the charade, listen to the old guy from Vermont, he had it right.

Read it...that is a plan!

https://berniesanders.com/issues/medicare-for-all/

I really want to drop about 20 f-bombs right about now. I don't give FF about Canada, this, that or the other. We have a chance to have the best, we can do it better that other countries just give it a platform.

Everybody wins, the rich can still get Cadillac policies, supplemental insurance markets will flourish. Individuals no longer need to make life decisions for employment based on medical coverage and employers are out of the insurance administration business for good.
 
Im trying to wrap my head around free healthcare for everyone. I guess it would be the same as k-12 education - most of public education in CO is paid through property taxes, so..the people that work hard and own homes pay for most of it, so the same thing will happen with free healthcare for all. But..I believe that the hard working Americans are already paying for the poor for healthcare..so what would be the difference.

Like I said at the beginning I think there are only two ways to run healthcare, everyone gets it for free or you don't pay you dot get treatment. I doesn't really matter if its free for everyone, the hard working Americans are going to pay for it one way or another.
 
>Agreed, wtf, stay focused, this is
>about our health and the
>correct approach to contain costs,
>improve access, and removing the
>huge financial burden off the
>shoulders of the everyday citizen.


Who do you think will end up paying for Medicare for all? Here's a hint: the everyday citizen!
 
>>Agreed, wtf, stay focused, this is
>>about our health and the
>>correct approach to contain costs,
>>improve access, and removing the
>>huge financial burden off the
>>shoulders of the everyday citizen.
>
>
>Who do you think will end
>up paying for Medicare for
>all? Here's a hint: the
>everyday citizen!


Aren't they paying now? One way or another? Health insurance premium rise faster than you tax rates do.

Nemont
 
>>>Agreed, wtf, stay focused, this is
>>>about our health and the
>>>correct approach to contain costs,
>>>improve access, and removing the
>>>huge financial burden off the
>>>shoulders of the everyday citizen.
>>
>>
>>Who do you think will end
>>up paying for Medicare for
>>all? Here's a hint: the
>>everyday citizen!
>
>
>Aren't they paying now? One
>way or another? Health
>insurance premium rise faster than
>you tax rates do.
>
>Nemont


Which is why they and the government need to be takein out of the equation as much as possible.
 
Socialized health care would have to be funded off income taxes there is no other way. the amount of revenue required couldn't be generated anywhere else without devastation.


I see two problems. republicans and democrats.

the Robin Hood liberals will cry that rich people will get a higher quality health care than the poor so therefore there should be no private care.


The Christ like conservatives will cry they still have to help fund healthcare for the less fortunate they don't give two chits about and they need to pay their own way or die.

Get past them and you could fix this easy. good luck.







Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
It will never get fixed, both sides are idiots. I voted for Trump but think he and his group are idiots, but better than HillBilly. No matter who is in charge things will continue to get worse. Reminds me of the movie Idiocracy, if you haven't seen it you should, its funny as crap in a bad way.
 
Been sayin the same thing for awhile, we ain't far from it! Now go away I'm bateing!
 
There are two segments in this country the control the cost of health care. The first is the multi-billion dollar Insurance companies. You look and see and then tell me why they year after year post record profits. The other is the pharmaceutical companies. Again another sector of the health care problem that post record profits year after year. I don't want to hear the BS about how much it cost to develop new drugs that is a separate problem having to deal with the FDA. And they will continue to stick it to the consumer every chance they get. Why not, who is going to do anything about it. Damn sure the government is not going to. It does not matter if it is a R or a D, profit is what drives the world. If you don't thinks so you are about to get run over by the magic bus. Well hell lets throw the lawyers in there also, they are just wetting themselves waiting to file suit against anyone or anything having to do with malpractice or anything medical if they see a dollar at the end of the day. This only drives up the doctors premium. Oh look the Insurance company makes more money. It is a vicious cycle.
 
The insurance companies are part of the problem but it's much bigger than just greed on their part.


Cost can be cut. and they must be cut, what better way than to make the majority of it non-profit.

But of course the biggest problem is the non payers. we send every American to the Mercedes dealership and lots of them don't pay. do the math on what that does to our cost.

So let's sent them to the Kia dealership . we'll still pick up their tab but it will be cheaper. that's where you start, non profit clinics and hospitals staffed by government employees . if we can't find enough doctors then we'll teach them and take the AMA strangle hold away.

I think there are plenty of do gooder hippies out there who'd do a plenty good job given the training and chance. make being a doctor a job not a position of prestige. lower prices with competition.










Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
>There are two segments in this
>country the control the cost
>of health care. The first
>is the multi-billion dollar Insurance
>companies. You look and see
>and then tell me why
>they year after year post
>record profits. The other is
>the pharmaceutical companies. Again another
>sector of the health care
>problem that post record profits
>year after year. I don't
>want to hear the BS
>about how much it cost
>to develop new drugs that
>is a separate problem having
>to deal with the FDA.
>And they will continue to
>stick it to the consumer
>every chance they get. Why
>not, who is going to
>do anything about it. Damn
>sure the government is not
>going to. It does not
>matter if it is a
>R or a D, profit
>is what drives the world.
>If you don't thinks so
>you are about to get
>run over by the magic
>bus. Well hell lets throw
>the lawyers in there also,
>they are just wetting themselves
>waiting to file suit against
>anyone or anything having to
>do with malpractice or anything
>medical if they see a
>dollar at the end of
>the day. This only drives
>up the doctors premium. Oh
>look the Insurance company makes
>more money. It is a
>vicious cycle.

I am the first to say that the insurance industry takes it's pound of flesh but if it was just a case of fixing the insurance side, then somebody would come along to do it cheaper and better and take all the business. Why hasn't that happened? Care to explain why they are all talking about making a more free market but you say the free market doesn't work for health insurance or Pharma.

In addition go look what hospitals and doctors and new technology does to the price of care? Who do you think pays for all the bricks and mortar in these facilities? Who pays for new MRI suites, OR rooms, Surgery Centers, Rehab rooms, 3D mammograms?

I know people don't believe me but the reason insurance is high priced is because the cost of care is high priced. If we just work on the insurance end the cost of care does nothing but go up.

To blame just the insurance industry and Pharma ignores a whole bunch of other problems within the American health care system first being, we don't have a system.

Nemont
 
Togwotee I agree costs need to and can be cut. The Kia and mercedes analogy I also agree on. But, govt. getting involved no way no how everytime they step in it cost more. More govt. is not the answer.
And Illegals shouldn't get any treatment if you don't give them treatment we won't have to pay for it once they are turned away. The healthcare bill trump wanted to implement sucked. And the republicans did have 8 years to plan something better. But obamacare sucked as well but obamacare doesn't go because we're worried about a couple million people not being able to afford insurance tens of millions of people and some won't be able to afford insurance if we stick with obamacare. And we're going to have an even bigger problem on our hands.
 
I've been lucky and haven't needed surgeries or major medical care. What worries me is if something happens to me that happened to a guy named Joe Swanson. Joe was in an altercation with someone on Christmas, taken to the hospital and found out he was going to be paralyzed. Two things could happen, he could walk again in a short amount of time, but the procedure is $250,000. The other option is a wheel chair for $75. The hospital called his insurance company and they chose the wheel chair option.
 
LAST EDITED ON Mar-24-17 AT 04:04PM (MST)[p]

I thought Joe Swanson got paralyzed beating up the Grinch?



Nemont
 
>>There are two segments in this
>>country the control the cost
>>of health care. The first
>>is the multi-billion dollar Insurance
>>companies. You look and see
>>and then tell me why
>>they year after year post
>>record profits. The other is
>>the pharmaceutical companies. Again another
>>sector of the health care
>>problem that post record profits
>>year after year. I don't
>>want to hear the BS
>>about how much it cost
>>to develop new drugs that
>>is a separate problem having
>>to deal with the FDA.
>>And they will continue to
>>stick it to the consumer
>>every chance they get. Why
>>not, who is going to
>>do anything about it. Damn
>>sure the government is not
>>going to. It does not
>>matter if it is a
>>R or a D, profit
>>is what drives the world.
>>If you don't thinks so
>>you are about to get
>>run over by the magic
>>bus. Well hell lets throw
>>the lawyers in there also,
>>they are just wetting themselves
>>waiting to file suit against
>>anyone or anything having to
>>do with malpractice or anything
>>medical if they see a
>>dollar at the end of
>>the day. This only drives
>>up the doctors premium. Oh
>>look the Insurance company makes
>>more money. It is a
>>vicious cycle.
>
>I am the first to say
>that the insurance industry takes
>it's pound of flesh but
>if it was just a
>case of fixing the insurance
>side, then somebody would come
>along to do it cheaper
>and better and take all
>the business. Why hasn't
>that happened? Care to
>explain why they are all
>talking about making a more
>free market but you say
>the free market doesn't work
>for health insurance or Pharma.
>
>
>In addition go look what
>hospitals and doctors and new
>technology does to the
>price of care?
>Who do you think pays
>for all the bricks and
>mortar in these facilities?
> Who pays for new
>MRI suites, OR rooms, Surgery
>Centers, Rehab rooms, 3D mammograms?
>
>
>I know people don't believe me
>but the reason insurance is
>high priced is because the
>cost of care is high
>priced. If we just
>work on the insurance end
>the cost of care does
>nothing but go up.
>
>
>To blame just the insurance industry
>and Pharma ignores a whole
>bunch of other problems within
>the American health care system
>first being, we don't have
>a system.
>
>Nemont


Have you seen the size of the new insurance buildings lately?
 
I said the insurance companies take their pound of flesh. I have a question if it is so highly profitable why are companies pulling out of the exchanges? Seems odd that they insurance industry would walk away from money doesn't it?


Nemont
 
>I said the insurance companies take
>their pound of flesh.
>I have a question if
>it is so highly profitable
>why are companies pulling out
>of the exchanges?
>Seems odd that they insurance
>industry would walk away from
>money doesn't it?
>
>
>Nemont


Because it's obamas dog that don't hunt.
 
>I've been lucky and haven't needed
>surgeries or major medical care.
> What worries me is
>if something happens to me
>that happened to a guy
>named Joe Swanson. Joe
>was in an altercation with
>someone on Christmas, taken to
>the hospital and found out
>he was going to be
>paralyzed. Two things could
>happen, he could walk again
>in a short amount of
>time, but the procedure is
>$250,000. The other option
>is a wheel chair for
>$75. The hospital called
>his insurance company and they
>chose the wheel chair option.


NeMont Thinking:

Operation.............250K? WheelChair 75.00?.............!

F'it!

He's Getting the WheelChair!

Then the Insurance Guy(NeMont!) Bragged on How He'd Made 6 Figures in a Month and a Half!










[Font][Font color = "blue"]I Changed My Signature Just for NVB!
Like 6 Damn Times Now!
 
The moron speaks. Unlike you I am a maker not a taker. Also you idiot I am the a small businessman. Used to be Americans celebrated success but you Utards a special breed.

Nemont
 
I don't assume the government is the answer, but sometimes it's the only answer.

Did you go to public schools? did you send your kids to public school? the answer is yes for most of us. so why is learning from public recourses plenty good but you cannot imagine getting some antibiotics from a public hospital? it's just a matter of thinking about it without the spin.

And if that doesn't sell you, then explain why it works for almost every other nation but it would be hopeless here.











Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
>The moron speaks. Unlike you
>I am a maker not
>a taker.
>Also you idiot I am
>the a small businessman.
>Used to be Americans celebrated
>success but you Utards a
>special breed.
>
>Nemont

All for Success!

But GEEZUS!

6 Figures in 45 F'N Days?












[Font][Font color = "blue"]I Changed My Signature Just for NVB!
Like 6 Damn Times Now!
 
>>The moron speaks. Unlike you
>>I am a maker not
>>a taker.
>>Also you idiot I am
>>the a small businessman.
>>Used to be Americans celebrated
>>success but you Utards a
>>special breed.
>>
>>Nemont
>
>All for Success!
>
>But GEEZUS!
>
>6 Figures in 45 F'N Days?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Font][Font color = "blue"]I Changed My
>Signature Just for NVB!
>Like 6 Damn Times Now!

and Obamna is laughing all the way to the bank,no wonder he didn't move far away.
 
The Trump bump, if there ever was one is dead. with todays loss now investors are wondering if a limp dong leader can get any of his promised through.


It's doubtful. his first 100 days are a dumpster fire so far.
















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
I kind of like the idea of the Kia and the Mercedes, but it wouldn't work in reality.

Senator Dingleberry couldn't wait to parade someone from their district out who would have lived a "productive life" if they just could of had the expensive procedure done. Now he's in a wheelchair and the government is stuck taking care of him and the surviving family.
 
>>The moron speaks. Unlike you
>>I am a maker not
>>a taker.
>>Also you idiot I am
>>the a small businessman.
>>Used to be Americans celebrated
>>success but you Utards a
>>special breed.
>>
>>Nemont
>
>All for Success!
>
>But GEEZUS!
>
>6 Figures in 45 F'N Days?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[Font][Font color = "blue"]I Changed My
>Signature Just for NVB!
>Like 6 Damn Times Now!

What does it matter to what other people make? isn't that the name of the game? think what Trump has made over the same period. 8 figures if he is a billionaire.
 
Probably true, but we have dumb kids who were educated in public schools too. but we still have public schools.

Beggars can't be choosers except for health care. it's time that changes. we'll give you access to health care if you can't afford it, but it won't be the same place Bill Gates goes. fair enough in my opinion.


















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
Maybe our public education works because nobody dies, unless they're shot or stabbed at school.

We have great public education if you don't count minorities? Russia has great healthcare if you don't count sick people.
 

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