Recent WY Wolf News - Not good!

G14

Active Member
Messages
286
A recent posted article from a WY news paper:

BILLINGS ? A lawmaker has failed in an attempt to get Wyoming included in a measure before Congress to lift federal protections for gray wolves across most of the Northern Rockies.

A 2011 budget bill now before the House includes a provision to revoke endangered species status for an estimated 1,400 wolves in Idaho, Montana and portions of Washington, Oregon and Utah.

Wyoming Republican Rep. Cynthia Lummis offered an amendment Wednesday night that would have extended the provision to include more than 300 wolves in her state.

The amendment was rejected after Democratic Rep. James Moran of Virginia objected on procedural grounds.

Wyoming's wolf law is considered more hostile other states'. It would allow the predators to be shot on sight across most of the state once federal protections were gone.
 
Moran from Virginia what the hell does he know about wolves.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
The key word is, what district in Virginia does he represent. I am willing to bet if you check it will be a district that is filled with left wing liberals and enviro nuts that do not want one wolf killed. He is gathering votes for the next election.

RELH
 
The key word isn't what district in Virginia, it is "Virginia." What the hell does this person know about life in the west. Wyoming, Montana, Idaho, and any other state that has a wolf problem should be able to deal with as they see fit without interference from people and representatives from other states poking around where they don't belong.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-11 AT 02:45PM (MST)[p]It never should have came down to Wyoming trying to make an amendment to get into the provision. In my opinion, it was payback for WY sticking up for their rights to manage their wildlife.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-11 AT 02:27PM (MST)[p] Maybe court orders do not have to be obeyed anymore?

Our President ignored 2 or 3 court orders on lifting his gulf oil drilling moratorium.
He is proceeding with the "at this time" unconstitutional ruling on the mandated obamacare insurance purchase.

Is he not setting a precedent?

Just saying?



----------------------------------------
Measure wealth by the things you have,, for which you would not take money.
 
well sounds like when the wolves kill all the big game in the western united states we need to go have a huntin season for tree huggers sierra club, peta and all the other bs organizations. And then head on down to virginia.
 
PETA is in Virginia. They were briefly a client of my company. I didn't deal with them, but from what I gather they expected everything for free.
 
Why doesn't the WY governor just send a letter like the Montana governor and be done with it?
 
i got a little one SA

Hatch, Barrasso, McCain and Kyle will kill the ID and MT effort only in the senate

RMEF,SFW, MDF, BGF and otehrs are UNITED to the bitter end, it is all the WEST, or NONE

join the fight

don
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-11 AT 11:13PM (MST)[p]You have shown your true colors repeatedly, Don. You don't want this thing to end. You have a great money maker going on. The more predators, the less game, the more upset hunters, the more members for all those different organizations your involved with. While your passing out your cool-aid, the great Republican attack on sportsman's rights, and access is going on in the Montana legislature. I don't see, RMEF, SFW, BGF and others battling for us. I only see the Montana Wildlife Federation, and other small sportsman's clubs throughout the state there. Go figure!

Wyoming shouldn't be rewarded for the mess they caused. It was their fip flog on policy that got us here in the first place. We would be hunting wolves in Idaho, and Montana right now, if McCain hadn't killed the Baucus/Tester Wolf bill in Sept. Playing politics and using the wolf issue to further agendas is poor form.

I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
The USFWS, and pro wolf groups have had a great strategy the last 15 yrs, and its called divide and conquer. I hope the states and pro sportsmen groups have learned their lesson and stays on a united front. Staying United is the only way we have a chance.
 
Wyoming should be rewarded for having Governor with guts to put together a great plan. Is it not laughable that Malloy rejected Wyomings plan, in part due to concerns over genectic connectivity.

First of all, show me anywhere in the ESA document where Genectic Connectivity is even mentioned.

everyone has seen the GPS data where one wolf was in four states in a sever month period, Genectic connectivity problems my butt. Malloy would have found some other lame excuse to puth them back on, so don't blame Wyoming, in fact, remember Judge Johnson ruled Wyoming plan is completely acceptable

Now, here is why we all asked our leaders to kill teh Tester bill

1. It borrowed Twenty Five Milloin dollars we don't have to stduy the issue for five more yeras
2. It automatically put wolves back on the endangered list in five years, no matter what.
3. It raised the minimum number of wolves in each state.
4. It only dealt with MT and ID.

Just remember, just a few months ago, many Dems said Congress did not need to act.

Now they have changed their tune, especially since ten Democratic Congressman have officially co sponsored the legislation endorsed by RMEF, SFW, BGF and MDF.

Without WY, UT and AZ Senators in the fight, the talk would be, just wait for the courts appeals process works.

now, the Dems know they need to solve this issue in Congress As well, so don't attempt to distort the truth on this one,

WE want this fight over, NOW, and give all the states teh right to manage wolves, like thrity two fish and game agencies have asked and support our position.

the little fronts for the animal rights terrorists groups are teh MOntana Wildlife Federation and otehrs.

lets make this really, really clear.

Cong. Rehberg said it best. "if Tester and Baucus agree Fed. Bueracrats should not be manageing Montana wildlife or Montana wolves, taht same principle applies to every state.

Delist in every state, now, then we can go back to restoring habitat, fencing highways, transplanting new herds and flocks

until then, the war is one, and we will not take a partial vicotory for two states, it is all of us.

the Midwest congress memebers are jumping on board as well, they have had a gut full of the lies and delays for the last twenty years to and want actoin now

don
 
4100fps

I am not a member of any of those sportsmen groups you mentioned and I do not know Don. I will say his response makes one heck of alot more sense then your's did on the wolf problem.

I also agree it must be a united response and leaving wyoming out, as you stated, is playing a fools game at best.

Wyoming, if left out, would be a breeding ground for hundreds of wolves that would end up in all the states that border wyoming. Hunters would have a hard time keeping them in check in your state or any state that borders Wyoming.

RELH
 
Don,
Keep up the good work. You're right, we have a fight which must be won.... here and now!
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-11 AT 09:45AM (MST)[p]I agree with you guys and I think 4100fps is out of touch and more like 1400fps on this whole wolf deal!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-21-11 AT 08:12PM (MST)[p]First off, it wasn't Wyoming's Governor that has the big nuts. The ag community in Wyoming changed the plan they agreed to when the wolves were re introduced.
Here's my answer to your four reasons for killing the Tester Baucus bill.

1). You claimed it set aside 25 million dollars over five years to study the wolves. That's at best misleading. It's in the original wolf recovery act. The wolf has to be studied and counted, to make sure the numbers don't fall below the minimums. It's in the wolf recovery. Read it.

2). Doesn't do that at all. At five years the wolf is in the hands of the states.

3).Another falsehood. It clearly says that the wolf minimums are to be what each state approved, (in 2003 for Montana), and (2008 for idaho), wolf plans.

4).It only deals with Montana, and Idaho, because we are the only states that have approved plans, (ones we agreed too) that will stand up in court. Wyoming shouldn't be rewarded for changing horses in mid stream, and causing all this mess.

You lied about the "DEMS" not wanting to get this thing done last session. They tried, the Republican crowd, your buddies McCain, Rehberg and the bunch killed it. They really don't want a wolf bill. As you well know, Rehberg is using the wolf issue to blast him to office against Tester. He's going to use this issue to blame Tester for it's not getting delisted. The facts remain. Changing the ESA isn't going to work. Period. But then you really don't care do you? It's all about perception, and money.

Here's the last Baucus/Tester Bill. The new one doesn't have the five year sunset. You still have the Federal government in this thing for 5 consecutive years, so there need to be funding.

The Tester/Baucus wolf bill is revealed.
Northern Rocky Mountain Gray Wolf Recovery and Sustainability Act of 2010

Title: To remove the Northern Rocky Mountain distinct population segment of the gray wolf from the list of threatened species or the list of endangered species published under the Endangered Species Act of 1973, and for other purposes.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the ?Northern Rocky Mountain Gray Wolf Recovery and Sustainability Act of 2010?.

SEC. 2. STATUS OF THE NORTHERN ROCKY MOUNTAIN DISTINCT POPULATION SEGMENT OF THE GRAY WOLF AS ENDANGERED OR THREATENED SPECIES.

(a) Definitions.?In this section:

(1) Final rule.?The term ?final rule? means the final rule entitled ?Endangered and Threatened Wildlife and Plants; Final Rule To Identify the Northern Rocky Mountain Population of Gray Wolf as a Distinct Population Segment and To Revise the List of Endangered and Threatened Wildlife? (74 Fed. Reg. 15123 (April 2, 2009)).

(2) Northern rocky mountain distinct population segment of the gray wolf.?The term ?Northern Rocky Mountain distinct population segment of the gray wolf? means the distinct population segment of the gray wolf described in the final rule.

(3) Secretary.?The term ?Secretary? means the Secretary of the Interior.

(b) Status of Northern Rocky Mountain Distinct Population Segment of the Gray Wolf.?

(1) In general.?Notwithstanding any other provision of law, effective on the date of enactment of this Act, the final rule shall have the full force and effect of law.

(2) State management plan for state of wyoming.?

(A) In general.?Except as provided in subparagraph (B), until the date on which the Secretary approves a State plan for the management of gray wolves in the State of Wyoming, gray wolves located in the State of Wyoming shall remain subject to the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (16 U.S.C. 1531 et seq.).

(B) Authority of secretary.?The Secretary may permit the lethal and nonlethal taking of gray wolves if the Secretary determines that a taking would be appropriate for any reason relating to gray wolves, including?

(i) to defend private property, including livestock and pets; and

(ii) to address unacceptable impacts to wild, ungulate populations.

(3) Entire distinct population segment delisted.?On the date described in paragraph (2)(A), if the Secretary has not carried out any action under subsection (c), the Secretary shall publish in the Federal Register a notice to remove the Northern Rocky Mountain distinct population segment of the gray wolf from the list of endangered or threatened species published under section 4(c)(1) of the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (16 U.S.C. 1533(c)(1)).

(c) Monitoring and Subsequent Status of Species.?

(1) Duty of secretary.?Consistent with section 4(g) of the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (16 U.S.C. 1533(g)), the Secretary shall cooperate with each State to monitor the status of the Northern Rocky Mountain distinct population segment of the gray wolf.

(2) Inclusion of the gray wolf with respect to states of montana and idaho.?

(A) Determination of secretary.?

(i) State of montana.?During the 5-year period beginning on the date of enactment of this Act, if the Secretary determines that the population of gray wolves located in the State of Montana does not meet the minimum threshold described in subparagraph (B)(i), the Secretary shall include the population of gray wolves on the list of endangered or threatened species published under section 4(c)(1) of the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (16 U.S.C. 1533(c)(1)).

(ii) State of idaho.?During the 5-year period beginning on the date of enactment of this Act, if the Secretary determines that the population of gray wolves located in the State of Idaho does not meet the minimum threshold described in subparagraph (B)(ii), the Secretary shall include the population of gray wolves on the list of endangered or threatened species published under section 4(c)(1) of the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (16 U.S.C. 1533(c)(1)).

(B) Minimum thresholds.?

(i) State of montana.?With respect to the State of Montana, the minimum threshold shall be considered to be a population of gray wolves that is within or above the population range established in the Montana 2003 management plan for gray wolves described in the final rule.

(ii) State of idaho.?With respect to the State of Idaho, the minimum threshold shall be considered to be a population of gray wolves that is within or above the population range established in the Idaho March 2008 management plan for gray wolves described in the final rule.

(d) Termination; Effect.?

(1) Termination.?Effective on the date that is 5 years after the date of enactment of this Act, section 4 of the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (16 U.S.C. 1533) shall apply, without limitation, to any determination of the listing status of any gray wolf located within the Northern Rocky Mountain distinct population segment of the gray wolf.

(2) Effect.?Nothing in this section?

(A) applies to any species, or distinct population segment of any species, other than the Northern Rocky Mountain gray wolf; or

(B) may be considered to be?

(i) any precedent for the management of any species, or distinct population segment of any species, other than the Northern Rocky Mountain gray wolf; or

(ii) the intent of Congress with respect to any interpretation of the Endangered Species Act of 1973 (16 U.S.C. 1531 et seq.).

(e) Authorization of Appropriations.?There is authorized to be appropriated to carry out subsection (c) $5,000,000 for each of fiscal years 2011 through 2015.


I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
There was not a management plan agreed to by the Wyoming Ag Community, the Wyoming Legislature, the Wyoming Game and Fish, or any other Wyoming interest prior to re-introduction.

Read the 1994 EIS final Rule, there was not any management plans agreed on by ANY of the three effected states. The only criteria listed was the minimum populations requirements that would be needed for de-listing efforts to take place. At this time is when the three states needed to take upon themselves to develop an acceptable management plan under the guidelines of the ESA.

http://www.pinedaleonline.com/wolf/pdf/FinalRule1994Yellowstone.pdf

This occurred in 2002 and in 2003 the Wyoming legislature developed the state's initial management plan.

http://www.pinedaleonline.com/wolf/pdf/NRMWolfRecoveryPlan.pdf

This plan was not accepted, and several years of lawsuits followed. Then finally in 2007 after negotiations with the Interior Department the Wyoming Legislature and the Wyoming Game and Fish changed a few of the parameters of their plan and the US Fish and Wildlife Service accepted said plan as acceptable.

http://gf.state.wy.us/downloads/pdf/WolfPlanFinal8-6-03.pdf

The plan then went through peer review from eleven of the most revered wolf scientists in the US. 10 of the 11 agreed that the Wyoming plan met the minimum requirements for sustained wolf recovery, and wolves were eventually de-listed in all three states in 2008 until the activist judge in Montana ruled that wolves needed to be re-listed due to lack of evidence regarding genetic exchange between the different colonies.

Then in 2009 the Obama admin tried once again to de-list wolves without the state of Wyoming being part of the plan. Wyoming then sued in Federal Court in Cheyenne Wyoming. They claimed the Federal Guvmint did not offer reasoning for not including them in the de-listing, they also claimed the the Guvmint failed to justify scientifically why Wyoming's plan that was once deemed scientifically acceptable now was not acceptable. Wyoming eventually won this lawsuit in November 2010.

http://trib.com/news/opinion/blogs/capitol/pdf_1ba2c9e6-f41b-11df-9d7b-001cc4c002e0.html

In the mean time wolves were de-listed and then re-listed in Montana and Idaho because the same judge as before ruled that wolves can not be de-listed along political lines.

This is exactly what the Baucus/Tester bill does. It de-lists along political lines and not based off of science. Wolves are either recovered or they are not. Plain and simple.

Oh and just a little FYI the Baucus/Tester bill is not what is even being considered by the Republicans at the Federal level. Last Friday 2-18-2011, the Republican House passed their Budget resolution. In that resolution there is a Section 1713 that was introduced by Mike Crapo from Idaho. This section simply states that the 2009 de-listing rule would become law of the land in regards to grey wolves in the US and that the Congress would not allow any further Judicial Review.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h112-1
 
It is really Simple

S. 249 Trusts the states and local people, protects wolves to agreed upon levels, and allows for game herds to be rebuilt and livestock and private property to be protected.

FOR ALL STATES.

S. 249 now has 58 co-sponsors from 32 different states and grows daily.

Well documented above, WYoming plan is acceptable, and wolves can be managed by the states a lot better, and a lot cheaper than the feds.

They are looking to cut another $200 Billion out of budgets, how about the $25 million Tester and Baucus proposed to continue to monitor, states can do that, plus the $35 million a year in lost economic impact from to many wolves

open and shut case politically, biologically, economically.

Congress people who care about America, wolves, wildlife and livestock and jobs say enough of the games.

delist wolves, NOW, EVERYWHERE. S. 249

Don Peay

For all the code name folks, come out of the shadows and put your names on your opinions

don
 
dkpeay - You are singing to the choir about wanting delisting and wanting it in all states. That song has been the tune we have carried since 1995.

And most of us in MT (and I suspect a few other states), couldn't really care how we get it. We just want control of wolves in our state. Those of us in MT and in some other states have been used as a pawn long enough.

You seem to be promoting that S.249 is the only solution. I support that as a solution, but I am not sure it has a chance. Maybe it does, and if so, good.

I support any solution that has a chance, AND gets Montana (and as many other states as possible) out of the position of being a chip in the game of "wolf poker."

According to this link published by the NRA-ILA on 2/18/2011, a lot of groups support any and all delisting measures that are currently being pushed through Congress. Here is the link.

http://www.nraila.org/News/Read/NewsReleases.aspx?id=14787

Here is a quote of Jeff Crane, one of the smartest guys in the Beltway. I have to agree with him.

"Representative Mike Simpson, and Senators Baucus and Tester have illustrated that there are many options available to move toward a solution, and we greatly appreciate that," said Jeff Crane, President of the Congressional Sportsmen?s Foundation. "These members are building on the attention that Senator Hatch and Representative Rehberg called to this issue with their companion bills earlier this Congress. We thank all of these Members for their contribution to the debate, and we support all of their pending legislation on this issue.?

And I agree with Dr. Larry Rudolph, President of Safari Club International, when he said "........ By the same token, we must be opportunist in seizing every opportunity for progress on this issue."

I am with these folks commenting in this NRA-ILA announcement. Any delisting is progress and I don't really care if bill is from an "R" a "D" or an "XYZ." To me, I feel as you said in your most recent post, "It is really simple."

To say it needs to be "Bill X" or "Resolution Y" causes Montana (and other states) to be used as a pawn, once again, but this time by those who want delisting "their way, or no way."

Maybe you agree with the guys quoted in the NRA-ILA release. I hope you do.

If you don't, I will have to start giving more weight to the opinions from some MT/ID guys who are saying that SFW doesn't want the wolf problem solved, as it is too much of a cash cow for SFW.

I doubt that is the case with regards to SFW, but if SFW is lobbying against these bills that would give MT, and other states, control over wolves, and wanting only "the SFW version of delisting," you will be helping a lot of MT guys to start agreeing with that position.

Hopefully we can get delisting and rid the Montana landscape of many problems.


"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
Wyosheds, did you read this part of the EIS?

"States and tribes are anticipated to be the primary agencies implementing this experimental population rule outside of national parks and national wildlife refuges after their wolf management plans are approved by the Service."

They sure as hell did agree to come up with wolf management plans before delisting happened. Wyoming has failed to come up with an approved plan.

Don,

Why do you and SFW need to reinvent the wheel? The only problem with delisting wolves lies with the state of Wyoming. You make is sound as though Molloy had any choice in relisting the wolves. He ruled on law...plain and simple. Do you expect him to disregard the Wolf Recovery Plan that WY, MT, and ID all agreed to? Which other laws do you expect him not to follow as a judge?

If SFW and your affiliate group in Wyoming WYSFW, would pressure Wyoming to simply change the status of wolves state-wide in Wyoming to a big-game animal VS a predator in 2/3rds of the state this issue would be done. There is already a mechanism in place to trigger delisting and if not for WY's contempt for the WRP that they AGREED to (see above for proof), wolf management would already be in the full control of all three states. There is no question that the Ag community was behind the states unacceptable plan. I talk with a lot of hunters in Wyoming, and they are tired of Wyomings hard-headed stance on wolf recovery...we want an acceptable plan and we want it NOW. The ranching/ag community and their control of state politics is driving a wedge between them and hunters on this issue as well as others.

Wyoming has put the screws to wolf recovery and really put the screws to MT and ID.

I can tell you right now that SFW, RMEF, etc. are pi$$ing up a rope if you think that you will be amending the ESA. Even if the wrong-headed McCain/Rehberg bill somehow miraculously passes, there will be lawsuit after lawsuit filed simply on the potential impacts to the ESA. Those lawsuits will look like childs play compared to anything regarding wolf recovery. Given the history of the ESA being upheld since the early 70's I can make a pretty good guess on the outcome of any potential lawsuits regarding same.

As far as you and SFW, you're going to "win" either way this thing falls. If it passes, you'll claim victory even though you've come into the game well after the 2 minute warning. You can use "your" victory as proof that those hundreds of tags taken from UT are well worth it. You've a clear history of taking credit for anything positive regarding wildlife, but deny, deny, deny, when questioned about anything that many feel are done by SFW that may not be even close to whats really best for wildlife and the average joe hunters in Western States. You have a real "knack" for talking down to people that disagree with anything you and SFW do or propose...and you rarely give credit due others.

If the proposal loses, you win again. You can say, "see, if we just had more members and more money next time we can get it done". I'm sure you'll get the support for an "almost" and I'm sure the sheep will offer another sacrifice via even more tags to make sure next time it passes. You'll blame Democrats, liberals, and tree huggers for it not passing, using that for a rallying cry for more membership.

I will give YOU credit for putting yourself in a position to never "lose". But that isnt going to do much at the end of day to really address the fact that Wyoming has been the cause of this crap dragging on for the last 7-8 years or that any new wolf legislation will also cost the taxpayers millions more in unnecessary lawsuits. Theres no need for either the Tester/Baucus bill or the McCain/Rheberg bill...all thats needed is Wyomings compliance to the WRP.

You and SFW are the masters at making easy $hit difficult.

Buzz Hettick
 
Buzz,

You seem to have failed at reading comprehension. No where did I say that the states did not have to come up with management plans prior to de-listing.

Rather I was arguing that the states did not have management plans in place prior to re-introduction like 4100fs claimed in post 19.

Oh and Wyoming has not failed to come up with an acceptable plan. The federal guvmint has failed to show why Wyoming's plan is unacceptable when it once was acceptable. The feds have acted arbitrary and capricious, not Wyoming.
 
Wow, these four groups are really getting the word out about how bad they want delisting and are willing to support any efforts to do so, not just S. 249.

This morning they put the same announcment in the largest hunting industry daily newswire. The entire hunting industry is now sorting the "buckwheat from the bull$hit" as it relates to wolves and delisting.

http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/story/1298352461u1apxh08t7n

Looks like the delisting train has left the station. Question is whether or not SFW is on board, or trying to derail as some claim.

If I was part of the WY Congressional delegation, I would be finding a way to get on that train.

If that train reaches the destination, it is going to be really difficult to make another run at delisting, just for the sake of WY. Some urban legislators will vote for it, but they are going to take a beating in the cities and east/west coasts. They are not going to take a second beating, just to get WY in the mix.

I notice that SFW is not part of the "Coalition." Or at least not named as part of it.

Anyone know if SFW is part of that coalition, or not?

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-11 AT 03:12PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-11 AT 10:25?AM (MST)

>Look in the mirror Randy, there
>is something on your nose.
>
Shouldn't you be out trying to get your governor to pull his head out of his ass so we can finally start managing these things?
 
Hickenlooper? lol...good one.

You kiss their @$$'s enough on that montana site, you don't need to do it over here on the 'utah site.' All these MM dummies don't care....
 
>Hickenlooper? lol...good one.
>
>You kiss their @$$'s enough on
>that montana site, you don't
>need to do it over
>here on the 'utah site.'
> All these MM dummies
>don't care....

Sorry I thought you were from Wyoming, my bad.
Not sure why you're so butthurt over me agreeing with these guys...
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-11 AT 12:50PM (MST)[p]BuzzH---The quote you started out with in your post is in no way an agreement of any sort between Wyoming or the other states and the Feds! It is merely a statement of who it was anticipated would control the population AFTER the Feds approved each plan. I would appreciate a POLITE reply to a couple questions if anyone has the REAL answers, rather than a personal attack, because I'm with everyone who wants this fiasco to end and the states to be allowed to control the wolf population within their borders. I know a number of people, and one in particular, on this site are blaming Wyoming for this whole mess and stating they are the culprits because they backed out of an agreed upon plan! My first question is can anyone show that Wyoming or ANY state ever agreed to anything on having wolves introduced into the ecosystem in the first place? To the best of my knowledge, the huggers and Feds came up with this introduction plan and the numbers that would be needed to delist before giving the individual states control measures. Then I believe they forced the introduction of the animals to begin before ANYONE agreed to ANYTHING! Afterwards, two states came up with what the Feds felt was acceptable under THEIR terms for those particular states and many are crying foul for Wyoming not backing down from their plan! As stated in another post, 10 of 11 scientists ruled that the Wyoming plan was acceptable, but then the decision was made that it wasn't and the debacle has continued with the Malloy decisions! It seems very simple for some to say that Wyoming caused this whole problem of delaying delisting and then the relisting, but I feel it's much more than that. They never agreed to anything at any time from the start!!! Things are such that the Feds think they can tell an individual state what it can do within it's borders like it does with highway speeds, etc, and now is doing with this wolf situation, as well as the Arizona situation on illegals where they are trying to control incoming trash that the Feds should be doing at the US border and aren't. In my way of thinking, it's way past time for the states to all get together and tell the Feds to go back to DC and do what they're supposed to be doing, rather than stomping all over states rights on this and a lot of other matters that should be left within each state's borders to monitor or control. Sorry, but I'm getting fed up with this whole Socialistic Federal Government that WE have allowed to control our lives and it's about time we take away that control one way or another!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-11 AT 05:39PM (MST)[p]TOPGUN,

You really need to educate yourself on this issue. Take the time to read the links that wyosheds provided, you'll find the answers you're looking for.

WY, MT, and ID all absolutely agreed to the WRP, part of which was having federally accepted plans by ALL three states before delisting could be triggered. WY failed to comply and has still not complied...which they are obligated by law to do. Theres not a single question as to why delisting was delayed and why relisting happened...all on Wyoming...period.

The wolf reintroduction was not forced on anyone...there were many many many meetings, several open comment periods (with extensions on at least the DEIS). Public comment periods, etc. etc. etc. etc. More informational documents were provided for this than any other item in the history of NEPA.

If anyone failed to comment in the few years leading up to wolf reintroduction they were either playing rip vanwinkle or flat didnt care. Either way, I dont believe for a second that anyone was left out of the process.

I attended meetings on the initial scoping period, DEIS, and FEIS, and also many meetings regarding Montanas State wolf management plan. I commented in every open comment period.

Wyoming has been the hold-up for the last 7-8 years, its common knowledge. You can babble on about state rights and socialist this and that all you want, but it doesnt change the facts of whats transpired or the requirements of the states, including Wyoming. I was involved heavily from 1992 until now and I've seen first hand what has happened.

I can assure you that nobody wants this issue to end more than I do.

Wyoming is about to be left in the dust and have wolves enjoying full federal protection because of their bull-headedness. The ag/ranch community doesnt give a rip about WY's public wildlife...if only obviously.
 
CRAP.. I was suposed to SIGN off with my REAL NAME, my bad !!!

-Oscar Williamson

-Moosie

Don't hate da playa Hate da Game !!
 
Buzz,

Wyoming has not failed at getting a management plan approved. They successfully had a management approved in 2007 that led to the 2008 de-listing in all 3 states.

Wolves were then re-listed by injunction by Judge Molloy mainly because the Guvmint did not show that Genetic exchange had occurred between the three recovery areas. He also stated that there may be a problem with Wyoming's plan if the plan were to receive full review. He did not list specific issues about Wyoming's plan other than the Feds failed to show why they accepted a plan that they were once against.

The USFWS under Ken Salazar then tried de-listing again in 2009 but left Wyoming because they were no longer accepting their once approved management plan without citing scientific evidence for to back up their policy change. Judge Johnson ruled late last year that the Feds acted arbitrary and capricious by failing to show why Wyoming's previously approved plan no longer met de-listing requirements.

Wyoming was proved right in court, and now instead of proving to Wyoming the scientific flaws in their plan to satisfy Johnson's ruling forcing Wyoming to make changes to their plan, the Obama admin under Sec Salazar have decided to appeal Johnson's ruling. Why is this? Mainly because Wyoming's plan does meet de-listing requirements and they are not able to prove otherwise.

Oh, and if you think that everything would be all hunky dory, if Wyoming would have just give in and changed their management plan, you are smoking some good stuff in your Guvmint job.

The feds still have failed to show proper genetic exchange between the regions. Ya, I know about the study that they released last year, but that study was completed in 2005 and they did not use the evidence in 2008, so why would they use it now?

Even if the Eco-Terroist groups lost the battle on genetic exchange, their next battle would be percent of recovered historic habitat. Groups like Defenders of (some) Wildlife, Natural Resource Defense Council, Sierra Club, Earth Justice, and Western Watersheds know exactly the cards that need to be played and which court to play them in to keep wolves listed on the ESA for many, many years to come, regardless of management plans, numbers of wolves, or how much territory they inhabit.

The wolf de-listing in the Great Lakes is a prime example. Those states are not even holding hunts, and these groups continue to file lawsuits to keep them listed. These animals are a cash cow for these groups, not only in donations, but the billions of dollars that they receive from the "Equal Access to Justice" act for suing the Federal Guvmint.

These Eco-Terrorist groups are the one's who are prostituting wolves for financial gain. They are the one's who continue to sue in order to line their pockets. RMEF, MDF, NRA, and other groups are actually joining this battle to end it, not continue it. I'm sorry that other sportsmen fail to recognize this.

Oh, one last thing, Congress can limit Judicial Review for this matter if they pass something that removes wolves via legislation. As of right now the Crapo amendment to the budget resolution does this. Eco-Terrorists would no longer be able to sue the Feds on wolves that would be de-listed under the legislation.
 
It's long past the time for people to sh!t or get off the pot with this wolf topic. Seriously.

Buzz and others make great points and target the real issues lurking.

The longer the lobbyists and politicians and special interest groups drag this out unnecessarily, the more money wasted. In the end, those groups/people win while the wildlife and sportsmen suffer. Though with as long as this issue continues to lumber along, it would make for a fantastic book or even a nice Hollywood movie.

-Jason Kremer
 
Wyosheds,

You can blame what you want, but answer one question...does Wyoming have a plan in place that is acceptable to the USFWS and the courts?

The answer is no...and Johnsons ruling is meaningless. If Johnsons ruling had any merit, Wyoming wolves wouldnt have enjoyed full federal protection while MT and ID had successful seasons. Wyoming has made the bed they're laying in and have hurt ID and MT as well as themselves. The unfortunate thing is that the solution is so simple, classify wolves as big-game statewide and we're done.

Further, Molloys first ruling allowing the hunts to happen in MT and ID stated 3 very important things:

1. Wolves were recovered by definition of the WRP and EIS in both total population and also pack numbers.

2. Hunting seasons would not negatively impact wolf populations to the point of relisting, one of the requirements of the EIS.

3. He would have no choice but to relist if Wyoming didnt come up with an acceptable plan. He ruled on law, which judges are required to do. He hid nothing about the case, in fact, laid it out black and white and apparently Wyoming thought he wasnt serious.

Despite what you claim about bunny hugging groups filing suit, they'll have a pretty tough go based on the science, the FEIS, the ESA, and Molloys ruling allowing the hunts to happen in MT and ID.

Largely, the bunny huggers have sat this one out allowing Wyoming to sit in the corner wearing the dunce hat.
 
moosie---I'd vote for BuzzH for President, since ANYBODY would be better than what we have in there now, but I don't agree with his hypothesis that Wyoming is to blame for this whole mess. The plans that Idaho and Montana came up with and that were finally accepted were years after the introduction took place, so they didn't agree to anything initially like he is saying all three states did! As was stated in another member's post, as long as the antis can raise an objection and files suits in the courts regarding anything that may allow even one wolf to be killed, this will go on forever until there isn't enough game left to look at or hunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-11 AT 09:56PM (MST)[p]TOPGUN,

Last time I'll explain this...I'll type it slower.

WY, ID, and MT all signed on to the wolf recovery plan and the preferred alternative to the FEIS. That plan stated that ALL three states had to have accepted plans before delisting could happen. It also stated other things like the number of packs required, total wolf population, etc. that was needed to trigger delisting. All the things in the EIS had to happen before delisting and state control was granted...READ THE EIS, its all in there.

None of the 3 states had plans in place prior to reintroduction...why spend time, money, and form committees to manage wolves before you reintroduce wolves, makes no sense. In fairness though Montana had already discussed the possibility of wolf management being needed prior to reintroduction. Largely because wolves were starting to reestablish themselves in NW Montana, the Rocky Mountain Front, and eventually the Ninemile Valley. Montana was anticipating the need for wolf management as early as 1986 when one was shot on the Blackfoot Reservation.

Once the preferred altnernative was adopted, all 3 states immediately began putting plans together as required by the EIS they'd just agreed to. Two of the three states have complied with the requirements...one has not.

Its not hypothetical, its what was agreed to in the preferred altnernative that WY, MT, and ID as well as the general public signed off on. The only game changing is Wyoming thinking they can shrug off their legal obligations they agreed to in 1994.

You're also wrong about the antis getting their way...how did that work out for them in 2008 when MT hunters legally smoked 74 wolves and Idaho hunters another 175 with the consent of Molloys ruling?
 
The wolf lovers and the anti hunters will continue filing law suits even if Wyoming bends over and offers an "acceplable plan". We all know that.

Meanwhile, the cancer grows and grows and grows.
 
Based on what?

How are they going to get around Molloys ruling to allow the hunts in 2008?

Wolves are growing in number thanks to Wyoming for the past 7-8 years...and currently as well.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-11 AT 10:34PM (MST)[p]BuzzH---Now I'll type slow and maybe YOU'LL comprehend what I'm saying, LOL! The states agreed to formulate individual plans to what they thought the Feds would agree to when the whole thing got started so that delisting could take place. That is a far cry from what you are saying! The individual plans took years to formulate before they were presented to the Feds for consideration and two were finally accepted. As far as I'm concerned, each state should be able to kill every friggin wolf that is outside the agreed upon boundaries when the thing was set up and that is what Wyoming is arguing and wants to do. So who is actually renigging on the original plan? It sure isn't Wyoming!!! Yea, the other two states decided to make plans that would allow some wolves to be killed. Wyoming wants to do the same thing, only extend it further to everything outside of the boundaries that were originally put in place and I feel they are right to want to do that. Then there are the antis who don't want any killed anywhere and still want a higher population, even though it's already mant times more than the original plan. Maybe to your way of thinking Wyoming should just cave in and make you and everybody happy, but it doesn't work that way. It looks to me like the SSS method will be the only one that will be taking place for some time yet unless things change drastically. Two questions for you. Why is the Wyoming plan not being approved when the wolves outside the agreed upon boundaries are excess and would have no impact on the agreed upon levels within the approved boundary? That sort of negates your #2 statement you just posted! Also, what is the law you say Wyoming is breaking when they agreed to come up with a plan? They came up with a plan that should be agreed upon by the Feds, so it isn't their fault the Feds BACKED out and are actually the ones causing this mess!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-22-11 AT 10:58PM (MST)[p]The states all knew what they agreed to...and knew what the requirements would be, it wasnt hidden as you seem to be implying. The agreement did not, and has not changed since it was adopted via the FEIS. The states had plenty of time to come up with viable plans, no reason for them to rush through the process as it took several years for wolf numbers to meet the minimums. It made sense for the States to get it right...2 of 3 did.

The state plans HAD to assure that wolves would be kept at minimum levels in each of the 3 states or they would be relisted.

That was the problem with Wyomings plan, there was a legitimate concern that WY's dual classification would drop the population below the EIS required minimum numbers. If that were to happen, it wouldnt just hurt WY, it would also hurt MT and ID. Further, if the population in WY dipped below the agreed upon numbers, none of the tri-states would likely ever have control of wolves again. Its a one-shot deal for all the states to get it right, of that I'm 100% sure. A poor management plan that fails means wolves enjoy full federal protection forever, its that simple. W

WY was allowed to kill wolves as predators legally outside the recovery area for a brief period. It didnt take long before some hick with a rifle was busted shooting wolves in the recovery area illegally. That didnt do anything to help WY's dual classification, and more than likely prompted the feds to deny their plan. I cant blame them, the year round predator status was a recipe for disaster and IMO, almost assured WY's population would drop below the required populations to keep them off the list. Game over at that point. So, you're wrong, WY couldnt legally kill all the wolves outside the recovery area if that caused the total population to drop below the required minimums...and that right there is the reason their plan was not approved. It didnt adequately assure the feds that their plan would keep the population above the minimums.

WY can come up with any plan they want, thats true, but it still must pass federal approval as well as stay within the legal scope of the EIS and WRP.

The thing is, ALL three states are hitched together on this thing. Personally, I'd like to see Wyoming hanging in the wind with their crap plan and allow MT and ID to continue with their plans that the courts, feds, and whole world now knows is viable and works.

Unfortunately, none of us I'm aware of, involved from the beginning, thought WY would take the obstructionist approach they have. If we would have known, I'm sure ID and MT would have tried to go it alone and leave Wyoming to its own crap plan.
 
The important thing is for the wolf to be removed from the ESL, in the states that have plans, and that follow the EIS, and the "Wolf Recovery Plan". Wyoming's doesn't and I'll bet, never will. With that in mind, and the fact that now the NRA, and others have endorsed, any wolf legislation that delists wolves. Maybe we can get over this nightmare, at least in 5 states. With the NRA endorsement. It might be harder for Hatch, McCain, and others to derail this thing.

BTW, how is that SSS management going? Interesting to see where the numbers end up again this year.





I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
Everyone on here has missed the obvious. It doesn't matter whether Wyoming goes along with the other states or whether they come up with an acceptable plan for the Feds or vice versa or whatever. The fact of the matter is, the wolf lovers only need to come up with a half azzed reason to file suit to stop wolf hunting because they know as long as they have a couple of puke liberal judges like Malloy in their back pocket, they can shut things down for who knows how long. This process is taking years and we're no closer to a resolution than we were 15 years ago. Until the matter reaches the US Supreme Court the infighting and pissing matches in the lower courts will continue to drag on. We'll be lucky to see anything done in the Supreme Court for years to come...
 
BUZZ H,
You are wrong as usual. I know you are wrong because soon after you start your post your belittling people in a otherwise civil discussion. Its the first sign that you have no idea what you are talking about. Most of your posts start or end with you belittling people. Let me enlighten you maybe you can follow along.
Wyoming had a plan that was approved by the USFWS. Wolves were even delisted for approx 90 days in Wyoming with Our approved plan in place. After approx 90 days an activist judge said that Wyoming's plan did not ensure maintaining the minimum number of wolves and put the wolves back on the List (in Wyoming). (At this time he left the other two states alone. Later the same judge put the wolves back on the list in the other two states citing genetic concerns and a bunch of other nonsense). This was a judge, not a biologist from USFWS that put the wolves back on the list. Maybe I mentioned The USFWS had already accepted the Wyoming plan.
It was not until after the activist judge interfered with what the USFWS and the states had agreed to that the USFWS changed their mind and agreed with the judge. This was not the first time this happened. The USFWS had a 15+ year track record of rewriting rules and asking the states to renegotiate boundaries, and numbers of wolves that were acceptable for "recovery". As quick as the rules hit the Federal register they were changing definitions of "recovery". This is why those of you that believe that if we just changed Wyoming's plan to what the activist judge, or the USFWS wanted we would be in any different situation is laughable. This has nothing to do with wolves, and all do with the end of hunting, and environmentalists using the ESA as a land management tool.
Since Judge Malloy's decision, Judge Allen has ruled (on a case that was introduced to the federal court system before the enviro's introduced anything in Judge Malloy's court) that Wyoming was in the right, and in Judge Allen's opinion Wyoming's plan will provide adequate protection for wolves in Wyoming. The USFWS has not yet commented on Judge Allen?s decision.
As far as the attack on Don and SFW it saddens me to see people believe what they read. I know SFW has problems but there are no organizations that don't. To think that Don has an underlying agenda is crazy. These guys are only human, they make mistakes we all know that. As long as their steering the ship in generally the right direction I'll give them some room to operate. The thought that sportsmen are underminding the wolf fight just to see SFW fail is disquisting.
Besides SFW is only a small portion of Big Game Forever which is made up of most of the major sportsmen groups. I have some doubts as to whether it may work but I know for sure the plan to negiotate with the USFWS is at this point not an option. We've been down that road since 1997 and it hasn't got us far.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-11 AT 09:39AM (MST)[p]It sure would be nice if things could be kept civil when we try to discuss something BuzzH! It's always just as feduptwo mentioned AGAIN in his last post when you start typing in a debate on ANYTHING and it gets old quickly when others are trying to have an adult discussion!!! Your reasoning makes no sense to me when the wolves are already WELL OVER the agreed upon numbers in the recovery zone. That was what the states were supposed to work with when they agreed to make individual plans. It took very few years for the numbers to reach and exceed what was ORIGINALLY agreed on and it's just like feduptwo mentioned. The original numbers and boundaries keep trying to be tweaked and it will never end if the antis get their way! If the numbers inside the boundary are WELL OVER what was needed to delist, how in the heck are keeping the ones in check outside that area going to knock the numbers down? What one or more individuals do breaking the law like you mentioned should not be a controlling or deciding factor on not approving the Wyoming plan! No, the Feds want to make Wyoming's plan for them with different rules than were initially agreed on and you can type and argue all you want, but that is what has happened! The previous post to this one is pretty much what I have stated previously and that is no matter what happens, unless wolves stay listed the antis will keep doing what they do best and that is to create havoc with this and everything else that doesn't suit their agenda of eliminating all hunting.
 
Thanks feduptwo! Great post. It's amazing how some people can't see the big picture. The ESA concerning wolves needs to be changed. It is broke. We can't continue to have a few liberal judges make decisions for wildlife management. States should and MUST have the ablility to manage wildlife and predators. Ranching industry, hunting industry, and many small business owners and families need to see changes soon.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-11 AT 01:04PM (MST)[p]Let's also not forget that Wyoming's plan is the only plan that has a chance of working to protect our Big Game herds and Livestock... Don't forget you must kill over 80 percent of the population to control growth... Idaho's and Montana's plan is a GOOD START but the numbers will increase with their hunting plans.

Alaska and Canada sure have not gotten rid of all of their Wolves by hunting them relentlessly... Coyotes are open season! We haven't killed them off...

It all comes down to HABITAT. Wolves don't work well outside of big tracks of wilderness.

I Think Buss H and the president have a lot in common... Someone else is pulling the STRING'S........ Go back a read all of his Post's on this site. ALL he has ever done is ATTACK ATTACK! He should be ashamed to call himself a hunter at all. I Challenge you Buzz bring something positive with your knowledge...OR CAN YOU??

If we "HUNTERS" cannot stand together on this issue as hunters regardless OF OUR DIFFERENCE OF OPINION'S... our next generation is going to loose! And so are "WE"

Robb Wiley
Non Typical Outfitters
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-11 AT 02:02PM (MST)[p]Robb---Good post and I'm glad to see that there are more than a couple people fed up with a person that is always the authority on everything discussed and everyone else is wrong and are illiterate in his eyes. Wyoming does not have the habitat you mentioned to support any of these wolf packs once they start spreading toward the center of the state and I've already seen what happens when a pack does---domestic animals are right at the top of their diet!!! In that particular instance a Federal hunter came in and tried to get rid of the pack, but I don't believe he was successful because we found a wolf track just this past September during our elk bow hunt. If the Wyoming plan was accepted to make them predators outside the agreed upon boundary, anybody in our area could have legally shot them on sight instead of having to leave it to one person. Now tell me, if the Feds came in to shoot them, why couldn't it include anybody like Wyoming proposes? I'm sure if a certain person reads this he will have all the answers for us, LOL!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-11 AT 02:24PM (MST)[p]Robb,

You're wrong about the wolves not being controlled in ID and MT. In 2008/09 the population growth of wolves in MT and ID (the year they had hunting seasons) was less than 3%. Both states were poised to raise their quotas substantially before WY put a stop to the hunts via their bullheadedness.

Take a guess how much WY's wolf populations grew that year?

Just sayin'...

There is no question that wolves can and will be controlled via a combination of legal hunting and government control. The lower 48 isnt close to AK or Canada...and you may as will be comparing apples and aardvarks. Take a look at a map sometime.

As to the rest of your post, you have an opinion, which you're entitled to, and I have the facts. Never seen more people upset at facts than those on this board, emotion rules the roost on this site for sure. Facts are not personal, they are what they are.

If WY's stance is working so well, why are they being left at the station while the train pulls from the tracks?

Finally, I wont ever agree with WY's BS that they've pulled the last 7-8 years. Its political grandstanding with ZERO concern for the states citizens or the states wildlife. Its also a slap in the face to their neighbors in MT and ID. I'm not interested in Wyomings BS politics, rather state wolf management and a legal wolf season.

Wyomings BS has cost the hunters in this state significantly...and it looks to be the continuing trend. Wolves will enjoy full federal protection here...continue to grow in numbers here...all because of some political stance?

You worry about tree-huggers and anti-hunters while your own state legislature derails wolf recovery?


Laffin'....
 
feduptoo

"As far as the attack on Don and SFW it saddens me to see people believe what they read. I know SFW has problems but there are no organizations that don't. To think that Don has an underlying agenda is crazy. These guys are only human, they make mistakes we all know that. As long as their steering the ship in generally the right direction I'll give them some room to operate. The thought that sportsmen are underminding the wolf fight just to see SFW fail is disquisting."

$FW does nothing----nothing---- unless the action benefits them first---#1-finacially----#2-poltically---#3- Hunting Blog boards bragging rights......no hidden AGENDA----haha

Buzz--- maybe a little rough on the edges----lack a pinch of presentation skills----BUT--- the guy can see simple Black and White.....

Robb
 
Buzz H or whom ever you are. Read this article and tell me the USFWS did not screw Wyoming over making their plan.


Welcome to The Clark Fork Chronicle
Wednesday, February 09 2011 @ 06:32 PM MST
Sportsmen to protest outside Missoula federal court in March
Wednesday, February 09 2011 @ 11:41 AM MST

Contributed by: Admin

Views: 53

by Toby Bridges

Many Montana, Idaho and Wyoming residents who have been adversely affected or threatened by an ever-growing wolf population in the Northern Rockies have come to the realization that this issue will never be resolved by the presiding judge of the U.S. District Court in Missoula. Any time that Judge Donald Molloy schedules a court session to hear arguments from staunch environmental groups wanting more protection for wolves, and thousands of more wolves on the landscape, sportsmen and those residents who have come to appreciate a rich wildlife heritage in this region of the country know they are about to lose - again.


And this has angered many who have grown tired of watching wildlife populations being destroyed by an ever greater number of wolves. So much so, that a huge crowd of protesters is expected to gather outside and around the federal courthouse, at the corner of Broadway and Pattee, during an upcoming hearing when Molloy listens to arguments from environmental groups about why the meaning of the "non-essential" and "experimental" classification of the Canadian wolves should be changed or eliminated. Sportsmen and livestock producers know that such change will make it even harder to gain control of a wolf population in the Northern Rockies, which many feel now exceeds 4,000 - not the 1,700 claimed by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the environmental groups. All parties involved are to submit briefs by February 22, with the expected court date to be in March. (Watch for the date and time on LOBO WATCH.)

The continued growth of the wolf population in the Northern Rockies is the result of management, or control, being withheld from state wildlife agencies. That management, as outlined in the original Northern Rockies Wolf Recovery Plan and the 1994 Environmental Impact Statement filed by the USFWS, was to have been turned over to those agencies in Montana, Idaho and Wyoming when the numbers reached 300 - with at least 100 wolves and 10 breeding packs in each state. That goal was reached 10 years ago, and other than one 2009 wolf hunting season held in Montana and Idaho, no other such management has taken place. And those who have been hardest hit by escalated wolf depredation have grown weary of the legal foot dragging, and those responsible.

At the heart of the problem has repeatedly been U.S. District Court Judge Donald Molloy. During a 2010 hearing, Molloy listened to arguments from the same environmental groups he will receive briefs from by February 22, as to why a scheduled wolf control/management hunt for that fall was too premature, and why wolves should once again be relisted under the protection of the Endangered Species Act. After nearly two months of deliberation, he ruled that wolves would be put back on the Endangered Species List, and the hunts scheduled for Montana and Idaho were cancelled.

Molloy's court has not recognized Wyoming's wolf management plan as being adequate, and had already ruled that a management hunt could not be conducted in that state during the fall and winter of 2009. Likewise, the state was also excluded from the possibility of a hunt in 2010. Ironically, the USFWS had helped the State of Wyoming draft their management plan, and USFWS had given it their seal of approval. However, when Judge Molloy criticized Wyoming for not allowing wolves to run statewide, USFWS then rejected the state's plan. And Molloy's 2010 decision was based purely on the backpedaling by USFWS - for which Molloy was largely responsible.

His decision was that since Northern Rockies wolves are recognized by that same flip-flopping USFWS as a "Distinct Population Segment", the 2010 hunts scheduled in Montana and Idaho could not be held. It was his decision that until the Wyoming wolf management plan was changed to become more like the plans adopted by Montana and Idaho, it was wrong to allow the hunts in the other two states. And this really puzzled sportsmen who have had to deal with micro-managed wildlife populations for most of the past 50 years. Molloy's ruling denied the opportunity to reduce wolf numbers in the other two states, where wolves were wiping out big game populations, and were turning more and more to livestock depredation. Despite the fact that intense management was needed in Montana and Idaho, Donald Molloy once again ruled in favor of pro-wolf environmentalists.

Several months after that decision, another federal judge, Alan Johnson, in Cheyenne, Wyoming made the decision that USFWS had been wrong to reject the Wyoming wolf management plan. Although that plan called for managing wolves in just the northwestern corner of the state, in only about 12 percent of the state, in and around Yellowstone National Park, there were 350 wolves there - which is three and a half times as many as outlined in the original plan. When first outlined, environmental groups like the Defenders of Wildlife accepted the recovery numbers of 100 wolves per state, but have repeatedly taken the issue back to Molloy's court to get the goal line moved farther and farther ahead.

This is not a problem in just the Northern Rockies. The same has taken place in the Upper Midwest, where 6,000 or more wolves now roam across Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan. And gray wolves are now being found in Washington, Oregon, Utah and Colorado, with lone wolves being killed in the Dakotas, Missouri and Nebraska. If the Center for Biological Diversity has its way, this spreading is just the beginning. This radical environmental group has stated their goal is to see wolves restored all across this country, from coast to coast, running by the tens of thousands.

This is one of the organizations which will be represented by Earthjustice during Molloy's upcoming hearing. And many of those who will be protesting outside of the courthouse that day will know that should this overly environmental organization friendly judge dramatically change or eliminate the "non-essential" or "experimental" classification of the non-native and non-endangered Canadian wolves transplanted into the Northern Rockies, it will make it tougher to control the wildlife and livestock damage inflicted by wolves - and possibly to halt their spread into every state of the Continental U.S.

That fear has resulted in proposed national legislation to get wolves removed from the Endangered Species List, and the right to manage wolf numbers returned to the wildlife agencies of each and every state. Although two bills that were drafted in the Senate and the House of Representatives failed to make it onto the floor in 2010, they have since been revamped into Senate bill S.249 and House resolution H.R.509 for 2011 - and both seek the right of affected states to manage or control wolf populations and the damage wolves inflict. While sportsmen and livestock producers are sure to support these bills, environmental groups are just as sure to fight them tooth and nail.

Rodger Schlickeisen, president of Defenders of Wildlife, has commented, "These bills would sacrifice wildlife belonging to all Americans just because a small minority of people don't like wolves."

The sportsmen of this country, who have been the ones to actually foot the bill for wildlife conservation for the past hundred years, not environmental groups like Defenders of Wildlife or the Center for Biological Diversity, say the exact same thing about radical pro-wolf and extremely anti-hunting environmentalists. U.S. hunters feel these groups are willing to sacrifice a wealth of elk, deer, moose, pronghorn, bighorn sheep, mountain goats and other wildlife just to pull game numbers so low that populations can no longer support hunter harvest. At a January press conference, David Allen, the c.e.o. and president of the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation shared that the goal of this legislation is not to wipe out wolf populations, but rather to control wolf numbers at an acceptable level - a level that does not result in the dramatic loss of other wildlife resources. He also stated that the efforts of the environmental groups has nothing to do with saving wildlife, but rather to support their anti-hunting agenda, and to abuse the Equal Access to Justice Act which has become a very lucrative cash cow for these groups.

Ryan Benson, national director for Big Game Forever says, "It is time to put aside the divisive politics that are used against any group who petitions for the promises of the ESA to be fulfilled. Not only does such divisive rhetoric ignore the investment of states, sportsmen and livestock producers in wolf recovery, it is also counterproductive to a constructive dialog of the need of wolf populations to be managed responsibly."

Those sportsmen and ranchers who will be marching outside of Missoula's federal courthouse when the wolf issue sees yet another day in court have had their fill of demanding environmental groups, and feel that the outdoor lifestyle they have chosen and love is now becoming what is truly endangered. They are now ready and willing to fight back.
###
For more information, visit http://www.lobowatch.com or email [email protected].
 
laffin,,,you are not hanging your hat on The Toby Bridges are you? He would be the last guy to believe.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-11 AT 06:08PM (MST)[p]BuzzH---Here is a portion (in parentheses) of what you just wrote in your second to last post:
"There is no question that wolves can and will be controlled via a combination of legal hunting and government control. The lower 48 isn't close to AK or Canada...and you may as will be comparing apples and aardvarks. Take a look at a map sometime.
As to the rest of your post, you have an opinion, which you're entitled to, and I have the facts. Never seen more people upset at facts than those on this board, emotion rules the roost on this site for sure. Facts are not personal, they are what they are."

May I ask what map you are looking at? The last time I looked at a map, the Canadian provinces still bordered all of the northern part of the lower 48 states with the Rockies being one contiguous mountain range throughout both countries! So much for more of your "facts" that you speak of in almost every post, LOL!!! That error is about as egregious as some of your other "facts" you keep posting, so you better head back to the drawing board! Hey, at least you knew there are 48 adjoining states---congratulations! That's better than Obama visiting all 57, LOL!!! It's amazing how everyone here that is emotional and does not agree with your "facts" keep coming up with their own facts to contradict or challenge yours, but they are just emotional, LOL! What a crock of baloney and shame on you for not knowing where Canada is! Just maybe that isn't all you don't know about, eh!!! Now I'm laughing and it's not over Toby Bridges or Rush!!!
 
COME ON BUZZ..... Are you not up to the challenge?? BUZZ.. Use the knowledge you have to give us a solution. Wyoming is tying to do the best they can to protect what they love or what they depend on for a living. If the BIG picture was not to have wolves across the west, if that is not your personal goal, HELP US... What does Wyoming do at this point. Come on BUZZ if your a hunter and really do care STEP UP TO THE PLATE!
 
TOPGUN,

It comes as no shock you cant read sign...thats pretty obvious.

I didnt mean "close" as in bordering...I meant "close" as in a comparison of.

Its routine for the ill-informed to compare AK and Canada with regard to controlling and/or not controlling wolves.

The remoteness of Canada and Alaska, as well as very sparse human population centers, creates a situation that is not "close" comparison wise to the lower 48.

The reason I suggested Robb look a map is to notice that most of Canada and Alaska has NO access or very limited access while finding country beyond 21 miles from a road in the l-48 is impossible.

Hunters have access to wolves in the lower-48 and hunters that believe wolves will become unhuntable are probably of the same stripe that fail to shoot elk each year in ID, MT, and WY...which is an absolute piece of cake.

Keep believing Toby...and little red riding hood.

Laffin'...
 
Buzz,

For someone who thinks they have the facts, I would recommend doing some checking on those facts.

You have stated twice that there were wolf hunts in 2008 in Idaho and Montana. That is absolutely untrue. The only wolf hunts that took place during the 2008 de-listing took place in Wyoming in Wyoming's Predator area where 11 wolves were killed.

Hunting in Idaho and Montana did not take place until late 2009 and Idaho's hunt lasted into 2010.

Any population counts in Idaho or Montana that took place in 2008 or 2009 were before hunting seasons took place, and any wolves that were killed were for management reasons.

Population by state in 2008
Wyoming - 302
Idaho - 846
Montana - 497

Population by state in 2009
Wyoming - 320
Idaho - 843
Montana - 524

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie...rn_Rockies_Summary_and_Background_3_17_09.pdf

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie...ern_Rockies_Summary_and_Background_3_3_10.pdf

There also wasn't some hick that was caught shooting a wolf in Wyoming's Trophy management area that put the Eco-Terrorists into a frenzy during the 2008 de-listing. There were two cases that drove them crazy with Wyoming's plan. The first was when the Eco-Terrorists prized wolf 253m or "Limpy" as one of the first wolves killed after de-listing. And the second is when the Sublette County Examiner ran a story about an individual from Bondurant who tracked a wolf on a snowmachine for many hours before actually finding it and killing it. Both of these cases were used by the Eco-Terrorists when they asked for and Injunction from Molloy in 2008.

You also don't seem to even understand Judge Johnson's ruling. He did not order the Feds to accept Wyoming's plan, that is why they still have full ESA protection. He simply stated that the Feds must either demonstrate to Wyoming why they must comply with a statewide Trophy management in order to comply with the minimum de-listing requirements, or they must work with Wyoming to determine the amount of habitat and land that would need to be increased in the Trophy game boundaries in order to meet requirements. That's it plain and simple.

So why has the Interior Department chose to appeal this ruling instead of simply proving to Wyoming why their plan will not meet the de-listing requirements, especially when people like you claim that Wyoming's plan does not meet de-listing requirements? Don't you think it should be simple to prove to Wyoming why their plan doesn't meet requirements? I do, so why won't the Obama admin and the Interior department do this?

Simple answer, they can not prove anything to Wyoming. Their decision to appeal is based on pure politics and not science. They are fighting Wyoming and their plan because it is unpopular amongst most of Democratic base outside of the Rocky Mountain states. They are catering their decision in favor of the Eco-Terrorists and Animal Rights groups who will support them come election time.
 
WYNOTYPICAL,

Heres what I've done...see if you can follow along and then post up what you've done.

1992-1994...I commented on and attended scoping meetings, DEIS Meetings, FEIS Meetings regarding this issue. My comments are part of the public record for all...some written and some I testified at the above.

Once wolves were reintroduced I became involved in MT's wolf management plan by again voicing my concerns in public testimony as well as written comments.

I've also penned numerous letters to the MT, WY, and ID state Governors as well as the legislatures in MT and WY. I've not written any state reps from ID.

I've written the G&F commissions in WY, ID, and MT regarding numerous wolf issues.

When Wyoming decided to free-lance the wolf plan, I again wrote numerous letters warning of the road that WY was taking amd the inevitable negative impacts on WY's citizens and hunters. My letters went out to the commission, the Governor, and all WY congressionals.

Last year I went to Washington DC and had meetings with Enzi and Barrasso encouraging them to sit down with the Governor and get WY's train wreck of a wolf plan back on track. They said it was best to let the Governor "handle that"...yeah, he sure did.

It makes me laugh to see Lummis now begging to get on board with MT and ID...in particular when I've written numerous letters warning that WY was skating on less than thin ice while playing the Marlboro man card.

They've reaped the rewards of their lack of compliance and John Wayne bull$hit theatrics in a feeble attempt to pacify the livestock industry. Its also fair to note that they livestock industry isnt losing anything, they're reimbursed at 167% of the market value of any confirmed wolf predation and are enjoying less elk and deer to compete with their cattle. Wolves are a win-win for them.

They wont listen to reason and I cant help that. You cant just deny what you're contractually obligated to and WY is learning that the hard way.

It could have been avoided by simply classifying wolves as big-game state-wide. The USFWS has told them that many, many times and they wont listen to them...let alone the citizens of Wyoming.

Other than that, I've pretty much stayed out of the wolf issue...I'm sure you've done more.
 
Yep, it was 2009 in MT and 09/10 in Idaho.

Either way, wolf numbers increased less than 3% in both ID and MT, direct result of the hunts that didnt work...but continued to climb by 5-6 times that rate in Wyoming.

There was a wolf shot inside the recovery area when WY had their brief "window" of predator status.
 
Anybody have a link to the Scientific Peer Review of Wyoming's wolf management plan?




I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
>COME ON BUZZ..... Are you not
>up to the challenge?? BUZZ..
>Use the knowledge you have
>to give us a solution.
> Wyoming is tying to
>do the best they can
>to protect what they love
>or what they depend on
>for a living. If
>the BIG picture was not
>to have wolves across the
>west, if that is not
>your personal goal, HELP US...
> What does Wyoming do
>at this point. Come
>on BUZZ if your a
>hunter and really do care
>STEP UP TO THE PLATE!
>

WYNontypical - I am not from WY. I think Buzz is, and I think you are. As a non-resident of WY I don't really care what WY does.

I don't have any solution for WY. Your decision. What you decide is up to you guys, but it does not happen in a vacuum.

USFWS is able to easily blame WY for all the problems. Not a way for progress, but that had to be part of the whiteboard planning when WY decided to take the stance they did.

I listened to a presentation by Michael Bean from the USFWS. I quickly realized that his strategy is to deflect any pressure placed on the USFWS toward WY. I don't agree with USFWS deflecting the pressure toward WY, but that is not surprising. Shouldn't be a surprise to WY, either.

USFWS wants to put the focus on WY. So far, USFWS has not been able to draw MT and ID to their camp. We have just asked to be disconnected from the WY-USFWS spat. Let us get on with our business and you guys sort out your problems.

We can agree, or disagree, if that is what USFWS is doing, but it seems like WY should have expected the USFWS to make WY the scapegoat. If WY did not, expect that, someone was asleep.

I live in MT. I believe WY should do as they damn well please. Same as MT has done. States rights.

That being said, the original post talked about how things don't look good for WY with the bills currently being pushed through Congress. Not sure if WY will eventually be included in any of those bills, or not.

What seemed to turn this argument sideways is when some jumped in and started to imply that no delisting should occur, unless it includes WY. In other words, keeping WY connected to the other two states.

The way it was presented almost causes me to start listening to comments that some groups will find any basis for killing legislation that might disconnect MT and ID from WY, under a "their version of delisting or no delisting" mantra.

I don't know if there are groups that really feel that way. But, I am starting to wonder if that is true, when I see people rail against these current delisting bills that would disconnect MT/ID from WY.

To me, these bills disconnect the three states. To me, that is progress.

I am still pissed that the three states are connected, as that is what has the three states in such a conundrum. I can be as pissed as I want, but until a court decides otherwise, that is where we are stuck. Most of these bills can get us past the connection issue that the wolf lovers are using as their last hope.

From MT, and maybe ID, such complaints about the current delisting legislation comes across as though people want to use MT and ID as a pawn for their position. That they want to keep the three states connected, as that is their best hope. Maybe that is the best hope for WY, and maybe not. Continued connection is NOT the best thing for MT.

As a MT hunter who has seen the impacts of wolves in my back yard, I don't want to be connected to WY any longer.

Nothing personal. Just tired of not being able to implement our wolf plan, a plan designed by hunters and ranchers to manage wolves the way we want.

All the plans reflect the values of each state. Or, at least that is what they should reflect. They will never be the same plan. So connecting the states as the courts have is like a perpetual circle.

My point of all this is, that WY has chosen to do what it wants. Fine with that. I would love to see all states have control. That would be the best solution.

But, if there is legislation that would disconnect WY and their plan from the fate of MT and our plan, I am going to support it, whether it includes every other state, or not.

If this is an intentional ploy by some to punish WY for sticking to their position, that is a bad deal. I hope that is not the case, but have a suspicion that it is. Again, if the people plotting WY's strategy did not see the possibility of WY being singled out, then they were asleep at the switch.

I am going to do all I can to find a way for MT to be disconnected from WY, and get control over wolves in our borders. As much as I would like WY to have control over the wolves in their borders, I am not willing to let Montana lose an opportunity for state control, by fighting these bills that would disconnect us from WY. I, and I suspect most MT hunters, will push for these bills that disconnect us from WY.

The reason for WY not being included, and for the WY delegation not being able to get WY included is hard to explain.

I would expect WY hunters to understand that MT hunters just want control over our own destiny, according to our plan, and want to be disconnected from this three state agreement.

The quicker the three states are disconnected, the better for all three states. Our plans will never be the same, and connecting the three states, implies that all three states are expected to have the same plan. So much for state autonomy.

Enough wolf discussion for me. Got to email my legislators who are hell bent on screwing the MT hunter at every turn. They only have another month to lay the pipe to us, so hopefully they won't do as much damage in the coming month as they have tried to administer in the last month.

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-23-11 AT 09:30PM (MST)[p]Read the February 2008 Federal Register for intent to de-list wolves. It has all of the peer review comments.

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/delist_02202008/73FR10514.pdf

Or you can read the USFWS letter to Wyoming's Governor on the acceptance of their management plan, to get the short hand version.

http://www.fws.gov/mountain-prairie/species/mammals/wolf/ServiceApproval2007WYWolfManPlan.pdf

You can also read David Mech's declaration when the Eco-Terrorists sued to re-list wolves in 2008.

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/cms/wildlife/wolves/esa/court/dMech.pdf
 
Please dear,

I see a a lot of things that SFW has been responsible, or possibly responsible for (especially in Utah) that has greatly improved hunting in Utah. The best judge of success in conservation groups is their volunteers and you only have to attend one expo or a banquet to know they have some extremly loyal and intense volunteers. Every time you bad mouth SFW you bad mouth these people.
Don't support SFW that is your business. I'm not a huge supporter anymore but to slander them over a bunch of half truths you've read on MM.
Next year if you attend the expo you should also attend the full curl society social which is a non profit group that was designed to give people wanting to hunt sheep a chance if they can't afford it. There is no paid employees. This year they gave away 15+ sheep hunts to people who were working on completing their slam or who had never killed a sheep. They also gave away a couple of sheep hunts to Veterans and spent
a hour honoring them. It was a very nice event. Don was behind this and other than a pat on the back he doesn't recieve anything. I know BUZZ H or Please Dear, will tell me hes feeding his ego and he only organized this to somehow undermind sportsmen but at the end of the day it was a pretty generous act and to see the joy of the guys winning those hunts was pretty awesome.
 
Buzz

I see your still on the ATTACK... Seriously, do you have a positive bone in your body? So That's it, you can NOT come up with a positive solution... Because you wrote some letters and they did not listen to BUZZ You can't say anything positive?? Hmm... Buzz, it's not about what I have done... it's about what I will do IF diplomacy fails, that is where my skill set will be most useful.

BigFin

We are on the same page...We all want to take care of our own back yards. I spent years working in your back yard. Watched with my own eye's the destruction of one of the most awesome elk herds in the country the North Yellowstone herd. Also watched the herds in the Frank Church in Idaho DISAPPEAR! Been Watching the Jackson herd DWINDLE. See what is happening in Cody WY... When do we have to see enough to stand TOGETHER??

If we let guy's like Buzz divide hunters we have lost already...

Wyosheds, Good Job! TopGun you 2
 
Robb, Buzz is one of those guy's who doesn't listen, he only dictates. He's only happy when he is absolutely miserable. He is a very negative person that only looks at the bad in people.
 
wyonontypical,

The solution is easy...and positive.

Classify wolves as big-game/trophy game statewide...the games are over and wolf management is delegated to WY, ID, and MT.

The USFWS would be happy, the courts happy, and WY could then run hunting seasons on wolves in 2/3 of the state year round. MT and ID could carry on where they successfully left off with their approved state management plans.

No reason to have SFW, BGF, RMEF, and congressionals involved. Y

Big waste of time, effort, and money is whats happening now...taxpayers and hunters are getting fleeced under this current "plan" that SFW is so proud of. There is inherent and huge risk in trying to end-run the ESA which people like you seem to not understand.

Speaking of dividing hunters...quick question. Why is Don Peay and SFW not supporting the Tester/Baucus bill that would get wolves off the list? Don stated on this thread that Barrasso and crew would be killing it?

Ask yourself why that is...and continue to believe that SFW is uniting hunters. I hope you have as much contempt for an entire organization that is fragmenting hunters as you do some guy living in Laramie.

What a fuggin' joke...
 
>The solution is easy...and positive.
>
>Classify wolves as big-game/trophy game statewide...the
>games are over and wolf
>management is delegated to WY,
>ID, and MT.
>
>The USFWS would be happy, the
>courts happy, and WY could
>then run hunting seasons on
>wolves in 2/3 of the
>state year round. MT and
>ID could carry on where
>they successfully left off with
>their approved state management plans.

Buzz
I think a Bunch of us would be Happy! Sounds Simple! Maybe if we all work together we could do just that! I'm IN.... I would be happy to EVEN give you credit for it as well!

BUZZ YOU MIGHT BE TURNING OVER A NEW LEAF...
 
Crap.... You guys re still talking ?!?!?!

(I just had to repost to uncheck the recieve Emails note)

Carry on with yer Drunken Babbling............

-Moosie

Don't hate da playa Hate da Game !!
 
WYNONTYPICAL,

It is just that easy, and it should have been done 8 years ago. What exactly did you think I've been writing the last 8 years?

Good luck convincing Don Peay and SFW, you know those guys that are working so hard trying to unite hunters...

Complicating wolf issues, taking several hundred tags from the DIY guys and handing them to the wealthy, having ZERO transparency in their organization, pushing for outfitter tags, denying stream access, pushing landowner tags, etc. etc. etc.

All those are great ideas for uniting hunters.

Laffin'...
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-11 AT 10:06AM (MST)[p]Throw in Tobey Bridges and the mess will continue.
 
I'd like to throw Toby Bridges, back east, where he came from.



I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
Don never served his country---he is piggy backing off the Veterans .....go figure....

One item WE all can agree on is that-------


$FW turns fellow hunters against fellow hunters....PERIOD.

Robb
 
Please dear,
your a Moron but i don't know why I waste my energy. You don't have to serve your country to honor Veterans. I guess every movie star and singer that goes on a USO tour is just piggybacking off the troops, your a piece of work. I'm a Veteran and I appreciated it so we don't all agree.
 
BUZZH,

If Wyoming changed to trophy statewide tomorrow it would not change a thing, other than take one excuse away from environmentalists. They have 10 other excuses. As soon as you realize it has nothing to do with wolves, and all to do with ending sport hunting, public land grazing, and the hijacking of multiple use management on public lands You'll understand we are being held hostage. History has taught us we don't compromise with hostage takers or eco terrorists.
You might remember our favorite Judge Malloy also was responsible to putting the grizzly back under ESA protection. Like wolves the grizzly bear numbers has exploded. Unlike wolves the overpopulation of grizzles also brings serious issues about public safety, and as you know bear attacks are through the roof in the recovery area. The difference between wolves and grizzlies is there were some moderate environmental groups that actually supported delisting of the grizzly. It didn't matter because Malloy, or whatever activist judge they round up doesn't listen to moderation or common sense. This has nothing do with an "endangered animal".
SFW got involved in the wolf fight in 2002. There was compromise from the very beginning. I sat in more than one wolf meeting where major concessions from are side were made. At one point in the discussion Don was pushing hard for Wyoming to concede and accept trophy management because I believe Don used to think like BUZZ. He thought we could compromise. As SFW Utah got more involved I believe they realized this was a fight you couldn't win playing by the traditional rules. The politics of the ESA are different from those of normal politics. Really the only way we are going to win this is to cut the head off the snake, or at least cut out the fangs. It has also been explained to me that if the current legislation was passed by the house, then the senate, and signed by the president the only court that could hear challenges would be the supreme court, and this is only if they agreed to hear the case.
I know we can't win with compromise, I'll take my chances the other way.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-24-11 AT 10:13PM (MST)[p]I dont agree with you.

If MT and ID hadnt held legal hunts which were upheld by the "activist judge"...I'd put some merit into your post.

Sorry, I aint buyin'...

Wyoming has been the hold up ever since wolves have been recovered...and thats a fact.

Tampering with the ESA is going to get ugly...another fact. You'll draw the attention of every fern-feeler, bunny-hugger, hippie, etc. from every end of the country.

Count on it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-11 AT 08:29AM (MST)[p]BuzzH---Here is your last post to me in quotes:
"TOPGUN,
It comes as no shock you cant read sign...that's pretty obvious.
I didn't mean "close" as in bordering...I meant "close" as in a comparison of.
Its routine for the ill-informed to compare AK and Canada with regard to controlling and/or not controlling wolves.
The remoteness of Canada and Alaska, as well as very sparse human population centers, creates a situation that is not "close" comparison wise to the lower 48.
The reason I suggested Robb look a map is to notice that most of Canada and Alaska has NO access or very limited access while finding country beyond 21 miles from a road in the l-48 is impossible.
Hunters have access to wolves in the lower-48 and hunters that believe wolves will become unhuntable are probably of the same stripe that fail to shoot elk each year in ID, MT, and WY...which is an absolute piece of cake.
Keep believing Toby...and little red riding hood.
Laffin'..."

Sorry I couldn't respond quicker, but I had a death in the family and another snowstorm to contend with! I guess I'm not a clairvoyant and just took that post for what you typed, rather than knowing what you actually were trying to say! Jeez, that's certainly a relief that you do know where Canada is! I also see that you had to start right out with another put-down just like I, and others, keep asking you to discontinue. I guess we'll just have to contend with your attacks and the "you know all the facts" BS in very subject discussed on this site because it's very evident that you don't want to listen to anybody about anything, including how to be civil! I read enough of it in your posts and it started rubbing off on me. For that I apologize! Anyway, I'm now wondering about your statement of wolves being unhuntable because i can't remember anybody saying that, unless you mean if they are kept on the ESA. Also, your "absolute piece of cake" in shooting an elk every year analogy is another crock. I guess it isn't in your mind, since you've also already told us how great a hunter you are and posted all your "trophies" countless times from what one MMer stated. As "all knowing" and great as you are (in your estimation anyway) on everything we discuss, God had better watch out or you may just pass him by, LOL! Anyway, I don't even know who Toby Bridges is and I don't go by most Op-Ed opinions by anybody. I do know I can read all of what you and others have mentioned on this thread and your "facts" are not backed up by what I have read in more than one instance. I think I will just bow out of this thread and let the others who live right out in the midst of this problem area carry on the fight!!! Have a good day Sir, and I only have one more question for you that maybe you will answer. What Federal Government Agency do you work for because it's becoming obvious that you must be employed by one, as well as being totally against states rights?
 
TOPGUN,

First of all...you're right about finding and killing elk...its easier than a piece of cake.

I started hunting elk in 1980 when I was 12, I killed my 45th elk this November while hunting Montana in prime wolf country.

States rights? I've spent 16 years fighting for MT, ID, and WY to gain full management control of wolves.

Thats dedication to states rights...most give up long before 16 years, or worse, enter the fray late (as sfw has done).
 
More BS on elk and "your great hunting prowess" and you didn't answer another of my questions again, but no surprise there! It sure looks like you're fighting against, rather that for, Wyoming with your "my way or the highway" attitude, LOL! If killing elk is so easy "everywhere" with the number of people in the sport after them, it would seem like the wolves wouldn't have any left to chase for food and fun!!! It's nice that you have killed so many, but you better leave a few for the wolves, LOL! I sure hope you don't fall off that big mountain you put yourself up on because you'll break your freakin neck just like the rest of us!!! I'm done with ya and you can go argue and put down the others, as I've had enough of it!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-11 AT 10:44AM (MST)[p]Most elk hunters, like SFW, have a knack for making easy $hit difficult...

I dont really like hunting elk that much, but I've never had a problem finding them. I'll not bore you with 45 photos, and wont cherry pick the best, just the last 2 years:

2009 general tag public land, passed 7 bulls before this one, hunted 1.5 days:
IMG_3194.JPG


Later in 2009, also WY...so tough I shot one and my buddy shot 2 out of the herd...hunted half a day:

09cow.jpg


Montana 2009, general tag public land, hunted half a day 3 six points and a five point in a bachelor group, liked this one:

IMG_3291.JPG


2010 Wyoming general tag public land, passed a bunch of elk on day one, shot this one at daylight on day 2:

IMG_4064.JPG


Left my house at noon to pack up my camp for the year...had a type 6 tag so took a little stroll right towards evening:

IMG_4104.JPG


Spent about 10 days in MT, mostly deer hunting with my family. After we all took deer, I had the last 2 days of the general season to hunt elk...day one passed 8 legal bulls, day 2 killed the 6th legal bull I saw at 2 PM.

DSCN5616.JPG
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-11 AT 11:26AM (MST)[p]So what's your point in that post, other than continuing to be a big blowhard, LMAO!!! We got this one in the first five minutes opening morning last year. What's that prove---absolutely nothing, LOL!

31302010_trip_087.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-11 AT 12:04PM (MST)[p]Consistency trumps luck...any day.

Good bull for private land and a LE unit...congrats to whomever "we" is. Looks like tough country to hunt elk in.
 
Geez feduptoo

Didn't you say----

"BUZZ H,
You are wrong as usual. I know you are wrong because soon after you start your post your belittling people in a otherwise civil discussion. Its the first sign that you have no idea what you are talking about."

Thanks for the PM.

Robb
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-11 AT 05:14PM (MST)[p]Yep, Mr Smartazz as usual!!! That bull was on the same easily accessible public land (State actually)we hunt every year and NOT on a friggin private ranch. I was doing the glassing and my buddy was doing the shooting last year, as he's a resident and is lucky enough to be able to draw a tag very year! I wish I could draw a general tag every year, but as you are probably aware, it normally takes 1PP for nonresidents. Here's several other shots of where we hunt and a 2009 bowkill right above that easy country! Yep, that country is why elk are so easy, LMAO!!! Do you ever bow hunt for all those "easy" elk you shoot? It's even easier, ha!!! Sorry it's not in the "jungle" where you hunt, but you have to get em where they live, LOL! You are so into yourself it's absolutely pathetic!


954wyoming_9-09_031.jpg



5185wyoming_9-09_071.jpg


3863wyoming_9-09_029.jpg


3420im003254.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-11 AT 02:20PM (MST)[p]I now bow down to the great one who has to put down every damn thing that anybody posts on this Forum, LMAO!!! That raghorn was a nice 285" 6x6 and you can stick the rest of your insults up your azz!!! Now post some more f***ing derogatory comments you big azzhole!!! I don't know why anybody ever responds to a friggin thing you post, but this will be the last one I put up before I get kicked off the site for really telling you what I think of you!!! What a jerk!!! Bye bye, buy bonds!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-11 AT 02:25PM (MST)[p]Yep deerlove, I'm retired and have lots of time on my hands this time of the year! I wonder if he's on Federal work time since I think he's only in his early 40s, LOL!!! Anyway, I'm done as he's a waste of time!!!
 
I knew how this was going to end up. LMAO! I really enjoyed the ride.


I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
TOPGUN,

I wasnt referencing the archery bull in your picture, which is a fine bull...I was referencing the raghorn I arrowed.

You seem a bit touchy and corn-fused...
 
Yea, right, and I'm still a clairvoyant who's a little bit touchy and cornfused, LOL!!! Nice try though!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-25-11 AT 04:41PM (MST)[p]TOPGUN,

Forgot about your other comment regarding NR general tags.

You can draw a NR general tag every year...no wishing required.
 
You absolutely have to argue everything a person posts and you're not right on this one either! In this recent draw for the 2011 tags it took 1 PP in the regular PP Draw for a 100% chance at a tag and in the Special top dollar Draw it still took a fraction of a PP for a 100% chance and O PPs was not a sure thing at 88.90%. That means it's fork over big $ and it's still not 100% with no PPs that you're going to hunt! Now those are the stats right off of the G&F website, so how did you come up with that last bright statement?
 

Click-a-Pic ... Details & Bigger Photos
Back
Top Bottom