SAN JUAN HUNTER JUST GOT SCREWED

I didn't think I could have any less respect for Obama. I was wrong.

The good news is Elkass can move on from the San Juan elk tag and spend his 20+ points on the Cache unit.
 
You have no idea what the monument will do to hunting until the details of the monuments managment are determined. My guess, it won't affect you nearly as much as you think if much at all. If it ends up like GSENM you have nothing to worry about. No need to be frantic.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-16 AT 05:07PM (MST)[p]A monument designation is not the end. Current grazing and mining rights are protected under this designation. The total area of the designation is around 1.3 million acres and is almost exactly what local politicians had in their congressional bill as a conservation area. GSENM when you actually look at factual data has benefitted the area if you look at the economy since the designation. Sure mill jobs have declined but overall more money flows to the area. That's the thing about facts elksantlers, they don't care about your feelings. I'm not going to fight back and forth on this issue again. This will bring tourism and taxes into San Juan County who's economy sucks and isn't getting any better without the designation. This has potential to be great for San Juan County if they embrace it. I have very little doubt hunting rights will be left to the state on the monument and very little will change as far as hunting goes on the monument.
 
Under a Trump presidency I hope the Republican House and Senate repeal the Antiquities Act and require all future national monuments to be approved by both the House and Senate. I don't know if Trump will be able to resize old national monuments or eliminate them, but I would like to see some big changes related to the Antiquities Act.

Dillon
Www.dillonhoyt.com
 
Except they have already closed down almost every side road on the mountain. Atv's will probably be banded. Camping will be limited to a couple spot at $20 plus bucks a night.
 
I'm Huntin it!

I Might be the Only one on that Mountain!

That's even Better!

But I Will Hunt it!

Maybe dude can CHIME in one last Time & Tell us all how F'N Good His Buddy is on the Way out the Door!











[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]
 
For absolute certain, "Multiple Use Management" on the Bears Ear is gone, replaced by a different use management system, administered and controlled by a different bureaucracy with an entirely different agenda.

Justified or not, the most significant effect another Utah monument designation will have is to harden the resolve of the jerks that are attempting to transfer public lands to the State. Whether hunting remains the same, improves, or goes away completely the over arching effect is the Federal government continues to add more restrictions to land use in the State of Utah and other Western States, changing the land scape from what they have been for the last 80 years.

So we can say "it won't hurt hunting" and believe that is all that matters, but it's going to change a lot of other things, that collectively, over a period of years, erode the outdoor hunting lifestyle. The sky isn't falling but the sky is changing, and there is no way you argue that.

bobcat, I empathize with you but wouldn't want to see you violate you own code of ethics. Get it done this year!!!


DC
 
Here's the elephant in the room. Utah delegation had 6 years to protect and pass protection through congress to properly protect some areas as a monument while keeping others as conservation areas. They instead attempted to run out the clock and did absolutely nothing to protect the areas worthy of protection within this area. The monument is a little big, but also not the 1.9 million acres that was called for. The actual monument actually protects almost exactly what Utah delegation drew out as one of their conservation areas. Had Utah delegation passed protections through congress this wouldn't have happened. They are partly to blame for this designation which could have been stopped if they dropped their rhetoric and protected the areas that deserved it and created a managment plan for the surrounding area. Managment will change, but the BLM will still be the managing agency, and most uses will remain much the same as what they are today. I also honestly believe that San Juan counties economy will benefit from added tourism to the area if they are willing to adapt and embrace this monument. There are lots of people who will be interested to come to the area and visit these iconic and historical areas within this designation.
 
How many hunters are putting in for dee/elk on the sanjaun? Your draw odds just got alot worse on every other unit in ut! You guys think I was hard to draw now just tack on 10+ years.
hornkiller.jpg
 
Bears Ears National Monument. More good than bad in this announcement. Chaffets hit the nail on the head when he noted no support from UT elected officials for full protection of this area. That is exactly why Obama protected it. Can't trust UT gov't when it comes to federal lands. The Feds know it, and so do sportsmen nationwide. "We'll all ride machines up this closed trail, that'll show them feds who's in charge here. Someday this will all be ours."

Hunting there will continue, probably improve. Pay no attention to the fearmonger behind the HUGE mirror. Oops, too late for that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-16 AT 11:05PM (MST)[p]Oneye , we don't want the tourism, if we did we would live in Moab or other areas so stfu. We enjoyed the lack of people and the peacefulness we had.
 
I will first say that I fundamentally disagree with the way the Antiquities Act has been used by President Obama so many times now. Other presidents have overstepped their bounds on this in my opinion as well.

That said, I'm not sure what has changed now with the designation? I have not read the full designation, so I'm just not sure.

They claim they will have all stake holders, including local government, helping guide the management plan. Just like they listened to local government on the designation in the first place? It also seems counter-intuitive to me to say this area needs protecting, but now that it has a designation it will bring more people down to visit and increase tourism. So the way we protect it from human impact is bring more humans? I'm no rocket scientist, but...

What's done is done. I'll hope for the best out of the situation dealt.
 
To Show How F'N STUPID Our Government is They're Showing a Picture of Their 'GRAB' that Ain't even Part of the Bears Ears!

GEEZUS!

And people like dude SUCK this BS in!

GOOD-GAWD A MIGHTY!!!











[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]
 
They are So F'N Smart they Don't even know where the Bears Ears are!




1191notbearsears.jpg







[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-16 AT 09:04AM (MST)[p]Keep your eye on the bouncing ball. History doesn't paint a pretty picture of the creation of national monuments under the Antiquities Act in Utah and several other places. Both Bryce and Zion NPs started as monuments. To see more, read this:

https://www.nps.gov/parkhistory/hisnps/npshistory/righter.htm

In the meantime, here's something I wrote to our local newspaper columnist who is pushing to have Obama designate the Grand Canyon National Monument, which will include ALL of the North Kaibab Plateau.

***************
It's obvious from reading your column on the GC monument that you did very little research but are simply parroting the "talking points du jour." If you had dug deeper you would have figured out why sportsmen, the state's game department and most of AZ's congressional members are against the monument designation. It's simple, and comes down to the proverb: "If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow."

While Grijalva's bill as written, which Obama can activate via the Antiquities Act, states that hunting and other recreational uses will still be permitted, those provisions will be meaningless if what has happened in the past happens again. Over the years, a couple dozen national monuments (see attachment for an excellent read about this topic) where hunting was allowed have been changed to national parks. Once that happens, no stipulations or inclusions from the original monument designation matters. They're history -- gone forever. Instead, the rules that govern national parks now become the law of the land. That means hunting gets banned completely. One place where this has already occurred here in AZ is Saguaro National Park -- where quail, deer and javelina hunting was very good before it was outlawed. And guess what? Grand Canyon NP also started as a national monument, as did Bryce and Zion.

The major problem with this current effort is the inclusion of the entire North Kaibab Plateau. For sportsmen, it's considered as one of the finest mule deer areas in the West. In 1984, 40,000 acres of good hunting land on the east side of the Kaibab were eliminated by the creation of the Saddle Mountain Wilderness Area, thereby blocking vehicle access. Still, each year thousands of hunters from all over the U.S. apply for one of the hard-to-draw permits. In 2015. there were 7,443 applicants for the 685 permits available. And you can bet the ranch that the Center for Biological Diversity, the Sierra Club and the Human Society of the U.S. would like nothing better than to have the North Kaibab Plateau closed to hunting.

As a national park the GC itself is ALREADY protected from uranium mining and the areas around it are ALREADY protected by law until 2020 at least. Those who want those protections to stay in place should lobby for legislation that prohibits uranium mines past the date when the current ban expires. I bet even the sportsmen and the state's game department would cheer them on.


TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
>Except they have already closed down
>almost every side road on
>the mountain. Atv's will
>probably be banded. Camping
>will be limited to a
>couple spot at $20 plus
>bucks a night.


Why do you care about banning ATV's and closing roads?

You're Roadlesshunter!
 
>Here's the elephant in the room.
>Utah delegation had 6 years
>to protect and pass protection
>through congress to properly protect
>some areas as a monument
>while keeping others as conservation
>areas. They instead attempted to
>run out the clock and
>did absolutely nothing to protect
>the areas worthy of protection
>within this area. The monument
>is a little big, but
>also not the 1.9 million
>acres that was called for.
>The actual monument actually protects
>almost exactly what Utah delegation
>drew out as one of
>their conservation areas. Had Utah
>delegation passed protections through congress
>this wouldn't have happened. They
>are partly to blame for
>this designation which could have
>been stopped if they dropped
>their rhetoric and protected the
>areas that deserved it and
>created a managment plan for
>the surrounding area. Managment will
>change, but the BLM will
>still be the managing agency,
>and most uses will remain
>much the same as what
>they are today. I also
>honestly believe that San Juan
>counties economy will benefit from
>added tourism to the area
>if they are willing to
>adapt and embrace this monument.
>There are lots of people
>who will be interested to
>come to the area and
>visit these iconic and historical
>areas within this designation.

So Utahs elected officials in house and Senate did nothing but run the clock, SOOOOO, a king came in and did what he wanted. Funny, I thought I lived in a representative republic, not a monarchy

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>Bears Ears National Monument. More good
>than bad in this announcement.
>Chaffets hit the nail on
>the head when he noted
>no support from UT elected
>officials for full protection of
>this area. That is exactly
>why Obama protected it. Can't
>trust UT gov't when it
>comes to federal lands. The
>Feds know it, and so
>do sportsmen nationwide. "We'll all
>ride machines up this closed
>trail, that'll show them feds
>who's in charge here. Someday
>this will all be ours."
>
>
>Hunting there will continue, probably improve.
>Pay no attention to the
>fearmonger behind the HUGE mirror.
>Oops, too late for that.
>

I sincerly hope that folks like your NEVER get old. Never get sick, never get hurt, never have relatives that do, never have disabled kids, or grandkids. King Obama, much like King Clinton, just told all thoese people who might not be able to hike, or go roadless, to F themselves because he wanted to teach utah about being the most republican state, or even better, teach old Cliven Bundy to not embarrass the might federal government. Its easy for you to talk about this being good, or being great, until you can't access it anymore via foot.

When my dad had lung cancer, he didn't stop hunting, he was dependent on a jeep to get him there, but I guess he wasn't one of us "true hunters".

Hawkeye, is it possible for the federal government to be sued on these roadless land grabs via the disabilty acts and regs? Seems to me if we have to have a wheel chair ramp at dennys, perhaps having access to 1.5 million acres would be as important?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-16 AT 08:02AM (MST)[p]
This is great news for Utahns. The Bears Ears area will be better off for it.

Unless you were hoping for a new mining/drilling/logging/grazing permit (already-issued permits will still be honored) this only protects land from those that want to personally profit from it on the backs of the public.

Hunting will still expressly be allowed, current roads will remain open, and there will be more funding for infrastructure improvement.

The one negative is the possibility of increased tourism, which is why the local outdoor expedition industry supports the designation. But that is a small price to pay to keep it from bring mined and drilled to extinction. Rob Bishop (R-OIL) deserved to lose this fight and I'm glad he did.

PS.. Every article I've read said the Antiques Act was written to give vast latitude to the President in designating a Monument and that undoing it would not pass judicial muster. I'm guessing we'll find out.

Grizzly
 
"I sincerly hope that folks like your NEVER get old. Never get sick, never get hurt, never have relatives that do, never have disabled kids, or grandkids."

Life's not fare Hoss. Life's a b!tch then you die. There are litterly millions upon millions upon millions of other acres to roadhunt when you get crippled.

What do you want, a wheelchair ramp to every mountain top in Utah?

How many people in your family has the patients to wait 25 or 30 years for a San Juan elk tag anyway?
 
Grizzly, those of you so worried about mining, and drilling have obviously never been down here. Mining already happpened and didn't last. Good luck drilling in that rugged country. we enjoyed the free camping and hiking without designated trails, gathering wood where you could get it. We won't enjoy the designated camp grounds, designated hiking trails, increased human activity, not only being able to gather wood in areas they will designate that will be impossible to get to.
 
20 yrs later on the GSEM , we still hunt it. We still graze it. We still have 99% of the vehicle access. We can hike anywhere. As far as I know we can camp anywhere. I wouldn't hesitate to gather wood for a campfire. They have even brush hogged hundreds of acres of wildlife habitat. You cant just ride your ATV anywhere anymore! The little towns around the monument are thriving. I don't know the details on the Bears Ear but I know the extreme Ut politicians will use it to rally their cause.
 
>So Utahs elected officials in house
>and Senate did nothing but
>run the clock, SOOOOO, a
>king came in and did
>what he wanted. Funny,
>I thought I lived in
>a representative republic, not a
>monarchy

Didn't the legislative branch cede the power to the Administrative branch back in 1906? Seems like that was the will of the people.

It appears that president Obama was just using the power given to all Presidents by the legislative branch and affirmed by numerous Supreme Court Decisions. Isn't that how our Representative Republic is set up? Or were the Founders wrong?

I realize it sucks, it happened here with the Upper Missouri River Breaks National monument in the waning days of the Clinton Administration. Funny thing was nary a single Utard stood up to help us then, now their ox gets gored and they cry like little girls.

Nemont
 
>Didn't the legislative branch cede the
>power to the Administrative branch
>back in 1906? Seems
>like that was the will
>of the people.
>

The link I posted has a great essay concerning the history of the Antiquities Act and how it has been used and abused. Over the years, more than two dozen monuments that had been designated later were turned into national parks.

TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
+1 Hornkiller hit it right on the money. My Boulder tag just got really hard to draw. It'll be interesting to see the change in application trending. Even if you can still hunt the San Juan. Now you're going to chase a bugling bull and have hippies hiking screaming at the top of their lungs messing up your hunting experience. We already have enough of that on the wasatch front. We don't need it on the San Juan. Obama has made Jimmy Carter look like a saint in his worthless 8 years.
 
Don't let facts get in the way of hysteria. There is absolutely no basis to believe hunting will in any way be affected by Monument status. In fact, it has been expressly stated hunting would be protected and allowed and the State would continue to manage wildlife.

I have hiked in GSENM for about 20 years and have hunted in/around Bears Ears many times in recent past, so I know the areas. For reference, there is no discernible difference in hunting the Kaiparowits units for Desert Bighorn than any other units. And if you walk into the Ranger Station in Escalante and ask where to camp, they'll tell you to find a spot off Hole-In-The-Rock road and camp wherever you want. You would have no idea it was even a National Monument unless you looked at the map.

If it wasn't for the GSENM designation, its entirely plausible that there would be major drilling or coal mining started in the area that was scarring the landscape but now defunct due to changing global economics and federal controls on the coal industry that are completely unrelated to a Monument status other than the prohibition of future permits. Thank goodness the area wasn't ruined forever by a few short-sighted individuals who were trying to get rich off the backs of the rest of us, leaving ghost towns in their wake, and destroying a beautiful landscape and public land for the rest of Americans; both today and for generations to come.

Grizzly
 
Not bashing it out. No one even knows the details of this monument and several here are jumping to ridiculous conclusions and using scare tactics and getting frantic for no reason. The monument may be scaled back under the next administration who knows what's going to happen with this. Relax a little life will be just fine in San Juan County and beyond despite what happens here. Let bad plans fall into place before we get all up in arms.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-16 AT 10:45AM (MST)[p]>>Didn't the legislative branch cede the
>>power to the Administrative branch
>>back in 1906? Seems
>>like that was the will
>>of the people.
>>
>
>The link I posted has a
>great essay concerning the history
>of the Antiquities Act and
>how it has been used
>and abused. Over the years,
>more than two dozen monuments
>that had been designated later
>were turned into national parks.
>
>
>TONY MANDILE
>
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

>How To Hunt Coues Deer


My argument isn't that a President is always right, it is that Congress wrote the act and ceded their power to the President. Abuse is in the eye of beholder. If congress wanted to they could, acting as the people's representatives, amend the act, take back the power or delete the act altogether. That is what they will do with the Affordable Care Act. It has been 110 years since the Antiquities Act was passed and yet here we are still crying about it. Is there never a time to act?


Quote from your link:

If Congress had effectively limited the size and the location of monuments, there would be no story to tell. However, the president's hands were not tied in either category. The Antiquities Act of 1906 proved to be loosely written, and instead of the narrow archeological application envisioned by Hewett and Lummis, it was applied by enterprising presidents and park proponents at a broad range of sites and in such situations which might well have amazed sponsor John Lacey. In the constant tug-of-war between president and Congress, the act became a significant executive tool to shape sometimes controversial conservation policies.
 
No hunting, no hiking, no wood gathering, no roads, no camping, going to be overrun with tourists, draw odds in every other elk unit just went thru the roof, hippies under every bush blowing whistles, It's going to become a national park.
LMAO!!!! What a bunch of chicken littles.
 
The Manti unit has mining and gas wells all over it and it still produces trophy animals every year. These companies bond all their work to pay for the reclamation, what "scarring" are you referring to?
As far as the federal controls that killing those industries, they were put in place by the same guy that brought you the new monument. There was and still is a lot of coal at GSENM, Clinton made sure that no one could benefit from it's use.

Rut
 
We'll have to wait and see how this actually occurs, but the proclamation states the following:

"Nothing in this proclamation shall be deemed to enlarge or diminish the jurisdiction of the State of Utah, including its jurisdiction and authority with respect to fish and wildlife management."
 
>No hunting, no hiking, no wood
>gathering, no roads, no camping,
>going to be overrun with
>tourists, draw odds in every
>other elk unit just went
>thru the roof, hippies under
>every bush blowing whistles, It's
>going to become a national
>park.
>LMAO!!!! What a bunch of
>chicken littles.

+1 Don't forget the personal shot at roadlesshunter because he may not get to road hunt. Figure that one out?

Its hard to determine which side is more full of hyperbole. The opposition side, who's points you outlined or those in support that say without NM designation the area would be a moonscape, filled with abandoned wells, coal mine spoils and ghost towns left by the evil robber barons.

My guess is 20 years from now the area will be largely the same and Bess will still be trying for his elk tag.
 
>The Manti unit has mining and
>gas wells all over it
>and it still produces trophy
>animals every year. These
>companies bond all their work
>to pay for the reclamation,
>what "scarring" are you referring
>to?
>As far as the federal controls
>that killing those industries, they
>were put in place by
>the same guy that brought
>you the new monument.
>There was and still is
>a lot of coal at
>GSENM, Clinton made sure that
>no one could benefit from
>it's use.
>
>Rut

About 100 miles southwest of Bears Ears is the Caracas Mesa area of New Mexico that looks like this...

931271.jpg


Some of the biggest mule deer in the world are from this area, yet it is scarred beyond recognition. Trophy animals do not necessarily reflect the status of the scenic and archeological condition of the land. I do not ever want Bears Ears to look like this area just 100 miles away... and thankfully now it won't.

As to your point about Clinton stopping coal mining in GSENM... that is exactly the point I'm making. If GSENM wasn't declared and coal mining had begun, Obama (or any other future President) could still have ruined the industry using other tools (as Obama did) leaving us with an area forever-ruined and with no benefit to Utahns except the ghost town left behind (see many parts of Wyoming and West Virginia for examples).

GSENM and Bears Ears would likely end up similar to many parts of the west that exploded with a natural resource (coal, timber, gold, uranium, oil, etc...) and then disappeared when the global economy, technology, or political winds shifted. And the only people who win are the few ultra-wealthy who did the damage in the first place.

Grizzly
 
>>Bears Ears National Monument. More good
>>than bad in this announcement.
>>Chaffets hit the nail on
>>the head when he noted
>>no support from UT elected
>>officials for full protection of
>>this area. That is exactly
>>why Obama protected it. Can't
>>trust UT gov't when it
>>comes to federal lands. The
>>Feds know it, and so
>>do sportsmen nationwide. "We'll all
>>ride machines up this closed
>>trail, that'll show them feds
>>who's in charge here. Someday
>>this will all be ours."
>>
>>
>>Hunting there will continue, probably improve.
>>Pay no attention to the
>>fearmonger behind the HUGE mirror.
>>Oops, too late for that.
>>
>
>I sincerly hope that folks like
>your NEVER get old.
>Never get sick, never get
>hurt, never have relatives that
>do, never have disabled kids,
>or grandkids. King Obama,
>much like King Clinton, just
>told all thoese people who
>might not be able to
>hike, or go roadless, to
>F themselves because he
>wanted to teach utah about
>being the most republican state,
>or even better, teach old
>Cliven Bundy to not embarrass
>the might federal government.
>Its easy for you to
>talk about this being good,
>or being great, until you
>can't access it anymore via
>foot.
>
>When my dad had lung cancer,
>he didn't stop hunting, he
>was dependent on a jeep
>to get him there, but
>I guess he wasn't one
>of us "true hunters".
>
>Hawkeye, is it possible for the
>federal government to be sued
>on these roadless land grabs
>via the disabilty acts and
>regs? Seems to me
> if we have to
>have a wheel chair ramp
>at dennys, perhaps having access
>to 1.5 million acres would
>be as important?
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

This is seriously the dumbest, most ignorant argument I here for not protecting open space, roadless areas, wilderness, etc. "We are all gonna get old and need vehicles and atvs to go hunting". My grandpa and my dad hunted wilderness for years, and when time caught up with them, they tipped their hat and rested in peace knowing those places would be around for all their descendants to enjoy. When time catches up with me, you won't here me calling for more roads and atv trails so I can get to places I once enjoyed. I will rest happy knowing they will be there for future generations. What do you want your legacy to be?
 
>If GSENM wasn't
>declared and coal mining had
>begun, Obama (or any other
>future President) could still have
>ruined the industry using other
>tools (as Obama did) leaving
>us with an area forever-ruined
>and with no benefit to
>Utahns except the ghost town
>left behind (see many parts
>of Wyoming and West Virginia
>for examples).

>Grizzly

Please provide examples from Wyoming that are forever ruined with only ghost towns left behind from coal mining?
 
"About 100 miles southwest of Bears Ears is the Caracas Mesa area of New Mexico that looks like this... "

If you travel Southwest from any location in Utah, you will never hit New Mexico. :) :)
 
>"About 100 miles southwest of Bears
>Ears is the Caracas Mesa
>area of New Mexico that
>looks like this... "
>
>If you travel Southwest from any
>location in Utah, you will
>never hit New Mexico. :)
>:)

Haha. You got me. Southeast.

Grizzly
 
Krazy hit the nail on the head with the fish and wildlife quote:
[font color=red]"Nothing in this proclamation shall be deemed to enlarge or diminish the jurisdiction of the State of Utah, including its jurisdiction and authority with respect to fish and wildlife management."[/font color=red]

Bears Ears Proclamation


One stark difference between the Bears Ears proclamation and the one for GOLD Butte (created simultaneously) is that exact paragraph. Gold Butte proclamation states:
[font color=blue]"Nothing in this proclamation shall be deemed to enlarge or diminish the jurisdiction of the State of Nevada, including its jurisdiction and authority with respect to fish and wildlife management, including hunting and fishing."[/font color=blue]
(my own emphasis added)

Do you want to know why those four words are in there? Because the Nevada's governors office was there at the table specifically asking for and insisting on it. Why did they insist? Because they listened to their constituents. Maybe the Utah powers that be should try that once in a while instead of just obstructing everything.


Gold Butte Procalamation
 
>forever-ruined
>and with no benefit to
>Utahns except the ghost town
>left behind

Grizz, I generally find more to agree with what you post than disagree. This time though, I'm choking on one little bit that makes it difficult to focus on where there is agreement. "ruined forever" and "forever-ruined" Whaaaa? How myopic is the view most humans autonomicly frame things! That's as bad as the nay-sayers freaking that there will be no hunting. No, it's worse. Cessation, or severe curtailment of hunting is a possibility, no matter what promises have been made, or written. All it takes is one president, and the right Secretary of the DoI, and direction can shift dramatically. A 1,000 years from now, oil wells and coal mines will be valuable archaeological artifacts that will be hard to find and document. Hardly changing things "forever".
 
>That said, I'm not sure what
>has changed now with the
>designation? I have not read
>the full designation, so I'm
>just not sure.

I could have written that myself. What good does this really do? Why was a NM necessary to accomplish "protection", and how does the designation do so? According to GSENM comments in this thread, nothing changed aside from prohibiting off-road ATV riding. Why didn't the BLM already do that for the BE area? Sure, there is lots of STILands in there, but the vast majority is BLM. Did they try to protect it previously? Is the protection due to the fact the BLM will have additional scrutiny over it's "protection" now that the NM designation brings focus to the area?

From what little I know, I am only surmising that the "protection" comes from the scrutiny, and the future option that can be exercised to upgrade to a NP.
 
The biggest variable that will potentially affect hunting on the San Juan, is being largely overlooked I think. Up here in AK we've been wrangled recently into even greater Native management of hunting/fishing in select parts of the state on federal lands, with the Native Corps looking to extend even more influence in the future.

One of the big talking points on the supporter's side of this designation is the inclusion of tribal leadership and the creation of a tribal coalition to assist in determining management plans and decisions on the land.
^^^this right here is the #1 likely reason any of us non-natives might end up with a loss of recreational opportunity there. It is far from a certainty, so like Vanilla and others have said no need to panic--yet. Who knows how this will end up?
 
Yes, I would like to see these areas forever ruined by coal mines. I have done a few mine reclamation projects and I would challenge you to even find where they were on an aerial map after a couple years when the vegetation fills in.

Rut
 
>Can we have a general area?
>I would like to see
>how it looks. But how
>do you restore the cultural
>sites?


If you are ever around rock springs drop me a note. I will show you around the mine and the reclaim. You can judge for yourself. Much different than an open pit gold mine reclaim job.

We don't restore cultural sites. They are surveyed by a State approved contractor and anything that is found is kept by the State
 
>Simply the first step on a
>slippery slope.

Yeah, something stinks. Using the National Monument designation for 1.3 million acres is more than preserving a graveyard or a historic battlefield, etc.

As long as you can get your 5 day hunt in every 20 years it's all good. I can't believe how short sighted and greedy some of you are.
 
>>Simply the first step on a
>>slippery slope.
>
>Yeah, something stinks. Using the National
>Monument designation for 1.3 million
>acres is more than preserving
>a graveyard or a historic
>battlefield, etc.
>
>As long as you can get
>your 5 day hunt in
>every 20 years it's all
>good. I can't believe how
>short sighted and greedy some
>of you are.

Every 20 Years Eel?

Wished that's all it took!

Maybe they'll be Issuing Yuppy Tags when I finally Draw?

I'll have to get me one of them Chartreuse Micro Buses so I'll Blend in!












[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]
 
I'll Scrape the SUWA Sticker off of dudes F-350 & put it on My Micro Bus!









[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-29-16 AT 08:14PM (MST)[p]>>Simply the first step on a
>>slippery slope.
>
>Yeah, something stinks. Using the National
>Monument designation for 1.3 million
>acres is more than preserving
>a graveyard or a historic
>battlefield, etc.
>
>As long as you can get
>your 5 day hunt in
>every 20 years it's all
>good. I can't believe how
>short sighted and greedy some
>of you are.


eel, sometimes your wit escapes even me. Help me out.

So which ones are you in disbelief of?



The guys whose short-sightedness and greed appears to focus on if they can still hunt Bears Ears?

Or the ones who seem to feel the area needs to be protected regardless of economic impacts?

Or the ones whose short-sightedness and greed seem to only be focused on if they can extract the coal and oil out of the ground regardless of the damage.
 
>>>Simply the first step on a
>>>slippery slope.
>>
>>Yeah, something stinks. Using the National
>>Monument designation for 1.3 million
>>acres is more than preserving
>>a graveyard or a historic
>>battlefield, etc.
>>
>>As long as you can get
>>your 5 day hunt in
>>every 20 years it's all
>>good. I can't believe how
>>short sighted and greedy some
>>of you are.
>
>
>eel, sometimes your wit escapes even
>me. Help me out.
>
>So which ones are you in
>disbelief of?
>
>
>
>The guys whose short-sightedness and greed
>appears to focus on if
>they can still hunt Bears
>Ears?
>
>Or the ones who seem to
>feel the area needs to
>be protected regardless of economic
>impacts?
>
>Or the ones whose short-sightedness and
>greed seem to only be
>focused on if they can
>extract the coal and oil
>out of tuxes each regardless
>of the damage.


Escapes me at times too NV. Wasn't sure if he was pissin in my ear! Lol!
 
The only thing that Eel escapes is when the cartel is on his azz as he is crawling thru the manzanita/chamise brush when running fr his life. It's an everyday occurrence here on the leftist left coast.
 
>Krazy hit the nail on the
>head with the fish and
>wildlife quote:
>[font color=red]"Nothing in this proclamation shall
>be deemed to enlarge or
>diminish the jurisdiction of the
>State of Utah, including its
>jurisdiction and authority with respect
>to fish and wildlife management."[/font
>color=red]
>
>Bears Ears Proclamation
>
>
>One stark difference between the Bears
>Ears proclamation and the one
>for GOLD Butte (created simultaneously)
>is that exact paragraph. Gold
>Butte proclamation states:
>[font color=blue]"Nothing in this proclamation shall
>be deemed to enlarge or
>diminish the jurisdiction of the
>State of Nevada, including its
>jurisdiction and authority with respect
>to fish and wildlife management,
>including hunting and fishing."[/font color=blue]
>
>(my own emphasis added)
>
>Do you want to know why
>those four words are in
>there? Because the Nevada's governors
>office was there at the
>table specifically asking for and
>insisting on it. Why did
>they insist? Because they listened
>to their constituents. Maybe the
>Utah powers that be should
>try that once in a
>while instead of just obstructing
>everything.
>
>
>Gold Butte Procalamation


This is soooo true!

Justin
 
Do one of you guys mind sending me a Bears Ears Monument bumper sticker to Cali for my beer fridge when they become available. It will look good with my "keep Tahoe Blue" "keep Shasta full, "save the delta from the tunnels" and all my other fun stickers. Thx. I'll pay for shipping.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-28-16
>AT 04:05?PM (MST)
>
>Obama the traitor just made the
>San Juan a monument what
>a joke. This will
>ruin the the hunting and
>camping on the mountain, if
>they even allow hunting.
>I never believed that Obama
>would take a personal shot
>at me, but this is
>a low blow for sure.
>
>
>http://www.ksl.com/?sid=42708529&nid=148&title=white-house-new-bears-ears-monument-for-utah

You may have gotten screwed but some of us see great hunting opportunity and stricter enforcement on illegal atv roads leading to better "roadless" hunting areas in the future.

Most of the area is federal land with a designation change to NM that will be managed similar to escalante (which I enjoy hunting).

Hunting is a privlige, not a right and it will be a privilege in Bear Ears for the foreseeable future. As for atvs, we(in Utah) need to learn just because you can drive somewhere does not mean it's your right.

Just think if Utah was switched to a majority of privately owned land? As a hunter that should scare you!
 
>The only thing that Eel escapes
>is when the cartel is
>on his azz as he
>is crawling thru the manzanita/chamise
>brush when running fr his
>life. It's an everyday occurrence
>here on the leftist left
>coast.


Lmao!
 
>Do one of you guys mind
>sending me a Bears Ears
>Monument bumper sticker to Cali
> for my beer fridge
>when they become available.
>It will look good with
>my "keep Tahoe Blue" "keep
>Shasta full, "save the delta
>from the tunnels" and all
>my other fun stickers.
> Thx. I'll pay
>for shipping.

SUWA Sticker on the way just for boz!:D










[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]
 
Note to myself: No wine before posting on MM. :D

I'm a passionate hunter just like all of us. I just don't see the need to designate 1.3 million acres to a National Monument to protect hunting. That's bigger than the state of Rhode Island. Or is it Delaware? I can't remember.

The hunting is pretty good out there now, isn't it?

That's kind of like using the Endangered Species Act to list the Ring-necked Fuzzwort as endangered just so we can stop some economic growth that someone is butt hurt over.

I'm all for using the public land for all people. Nobody gets everything they want. If you find a place where a dinosaur died, rope it off and make a National Monument, but 3.1 million acres? Whether you can hunt on it or not is not my point.
 
Fair enough eel

I don't think this designation was made because of anything to do with hunting. It was coming regardless of, or in spite of, hunting. My only point was when you see it coming (and anyone who didn't see this coming had their head in the sand), be at the table and make every effort to save yourself. Kicking and screaming and saying you don't want it won't do any good.
 
>Not bashing it out. No
>one even knows the details
>of this monument and several
>here are jumping to ridiculous
>conclusions and using scare tactics
>and getting frantic for no
>reason. The monument may be
>scaled back under the next
>administration who knows what's going
>to happen with this. Relax
>a little life will be
>just fine in San Juan
>County and beyond despite what
>happens here. Let bad plans
>fall into place before we
>get all up in arms.
>

You probably should take some of your own words of advise, concerning the whole land grab ideas too!

Proud member of the Wolfpack!
 
NVB!

If Most of the Locals Didn't Want it!

Does/Would that mean anything to Anybody?

I'm Telling You!

I'll Have to Invest in a F'N LEZBARU or Borrow c3's LEZBARU to Fit in the Future Crowd on that Mountain!











[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]
 
> NVB!
>
>If Most of the Locals Didn't
>Want it!
>
>Does/Would that mean anything to Anybody?
>
>
>I'm Telling You!
>
>I'll Have to Invest in a
>F'N LEZBARU or Borrow c3's
>LEZBARU to Fit in the
>Future Crowd on that Mountain!
>

>[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U.
>in My Future,Ya She's got
>a
>way with Words[/font]
>

That's the danger elkassassin. Who knows where it's going now?

I just can't see risking burning your house down to get rid of the rats. Rats that probably don't even exist.

NVB, there has been plenty of opposition but we see how that worked out. It's one reason we got Trump.

You can't just call anyone who disagrees with you a "basket full of deplorables" and not expect some push back.
 
NVB, your a smart guy. You understand, better than most, how this works. The plan is, and it's always been a very effective strategy, in winning these, "occupation" or "control" of land transition efforts.

It's the "inevitable", "nothing you can do", "can't fight the trend/system", "demoralize", "shame", "create guilt", strategy where, after a sufficient period of time, they "offer" (as if it was their's to offer) to "give" you "something", if you'll accept the inevitable. So.... after you've been properly "conditioned" you settle, for "something", and go away believing, "well, at least we got something and something is better than nothing." And.....that is precisely what their plan was to begin with.

They start with nothing, create a psychological environment to make everyone, including those who have current "occupation" or "control", believe those that "have it" are "greedy, wasteful, selfish, out of sync with the world" because they won't "give up their "occupation" or "control" to a new "occuper" or "controller". They begin by "demanding a large share", then "settle for less", then come back at a later date and demand another large share, then, once again, settle for less, and then again, and again, until in the end, metaphorically speaking, you end up settling for "hunting and fishing activities" and come away believing "you got a good deal".

Ask the Native American how it worked.

Ask the businessmen and the religious leaders that started the thirteen colonies how it worked.

Ask the Mexicans how it worked. (Calif. and Texas)

Ask the western free grazers how it worked

Ask the western free grazers how it worked.

Ask previous occupants of our current National Parks how it works.

Ask those that used the designated Monuments that were turned into National Parks how it worked.

Ask the Multiple Us user of every western Wilderness Area how it worked.

Ask the loggers in the northwest how it worked.

Ask the coal miners how it's working for them, right now.

Ask the current livestock leasers how it's working for them, right now.

Right now there are a large group of people, with divers agendas, working together, to win "occupation and/or control" over public lands, away from those who currently occupy and/or control them. These divers groups want this land to be used very differently than it's being used presently. Some, not all, are more extreme, wanting no public access, no hunting, no fishing, no horses, no free access and progress to more access, depending on which group you are looking at.

We know, from historic records, time brings change to America, as we can seen from 1492 through 2016. We know there are people and groups that want these lands for different things that most current users want to have them used for.

Based on the changes in the past, I'd rather "fight" than settle". Men alter history, the Bears Ear"s history just got altered, by people. I'm not willing to accept the inevitable, for me the slow death of a life style is still death of the life style.

I found, as a kid and continually confirmed it through my life, when someone punches you, if you hit back harder, they quit, if you turn the other cheek, they go right ahead and lay one on the other cheek, and continue hitting, until you leave or lay down.

Not saying we should go looking for a fight, but not interested in giving away 95% of my lifestyle unless I have no alternative, and right now I believe I still have an alternative.

The term a slipper slope has lost it's effectiveness but the current direction our "system" has been taking us slowly down a path I believe cost us our lifestyle, soon or later.

Course, options are like elbows, so if the current trend doesn't concern you, I can understand your apparent contempt.

DC
 
No lumpy, I'm not very smart. I think your explanation of how it works is spot on. We see it all the time.

I know next to nothing about Bears Ears. Only what I read. Never even been there yet. From what I have read it's impossible to determine what the locals really want. One time we're told the tribes hate it, next we hear they are all in favor. We are told the local economies will benefit, then we hear the locals don't want to benefit. Then we hear there's oil and coal and the land will be raped.

But even knowing nothing about Bears Ears I would have bet for a year or more that this action would happen in the waning days of this administration. I'm sure it started long before that. So why haven't the people who didn't want it do something ahead of time? No action will be misconstrued as acceptance. Bishop had his PLI that he didn't introduce until September when he knew it couldn't pass. Maybe he knew his plan was doomed and even unacceptable. This way he can point his finger at someone else.

If you aren't done fighting that's great! I wish you well. Pack a lunch. Those people are pros and have very deep pockets. Once the cats out of the bag its a lot harder to put it back.

In my state we got Gold Butte. Completely different animal from B E I suspect. No oil, shale, coal, or timber. No grazing except Bundys illegal cattle. No private land included. Not even much of a local economy at stake. And it's an hour from Vegas so maybe it really did need protection. Gold Butte was destined to be Senator Reid's legacy, his parting gift, regardless of what anyone else did or didnt want. So I consider getting "hunting and fishing activities" spelled out to be a win.

I should just keep my mouth shut about B E. Best of luck to you.
 
7 Years & 11+ Months before the Worst President Ever starts throwing His F'N Weight!











[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]
 
So NVB?

Like I've said for years!

A Chosen Few will make the Rules & Piss on everybody else?











[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-30-16 AT 09:24PM (MST)[p]Sad isnt it Bess?


Its all a matter of whose ox is getting gored.
 
"Its all a matter of whose ox is getting gored."

Perfect analogy NVB!

At the present, that is the most accurate statement anyone can make!

I expect it's going to stay that way until we divided factions are forced to come together to save ourselves, like the labor unions and anti-union factions that divided the Nation prior to World War One (scared everybody bad enough) laid their oxen aside and came together to fight a greater threat.

Then your fighting for your life or way of life, or believe you are, social issues, land policies, hunting and and access rights, transgender bathrooms, and wedding cakes aren't quite as important, to anyone.

Fear forced our country to stay united until the end of World War Two, at which time the ox goring started again and has continued to widen the gap between us every since.

Based on the past, fear of a greater threat, is the only thing that will unit the country again, and I suspect that the time will come, when fear will do just that... The alternative was the American Civil War. Neither prospect congers up a very pleasant future.

After reading as much history as I have and observing human nature for nearly 70 years, this ox goring business eventually takes a ugly turn for the worst, if a greater threat doesn't defer it.

DC
 
It will not boost our economy in SJ County. How can it boost the economy if 4-6 months of the year you can not even access the majority of the monument as outlined.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-31-16 AT 07:21AM (MST)[p]>>Ask previous occupants of our current National Parks how it works.

>>Ask those that used the designated Monuments that were turned into National Parks how it worked.


This is the nitty-gritty of what could happen in the future, as has already happened to about 30 monuments. And once that change takes place, hunting is banned altogether regardless of what is in the current proclaimation that designated the monument.

It might not be in the near future, but if past history tells us anything, the possibility it will affect your grand kids is certainly there. And if the Democrats once again take over Congress and the president's office, which is likely inevitable at some point, the odds dramtically increase.

TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
>>>Ask previous occupants of our current National Parks how it works.
>
>>>Ask those that used the designated Monuments that were turned into National Parks how it worked.
>
>
>This is the nitty-gritty of what
>could have in the future,
>as has already happened to
>about 30 monuments. And once
>that change takes place, hunting
>is banned altogether regardless of
>what is in the current
>proclaimation that designated the monument.

People need to Read the above 3 Paragraphs!

Then Read them again!

Nobody ever checks in to the BIG/FUTURE Plan!

And They'll Phase it all in to work it to their Advantage!

Might be a little at a time!

But eventually they'll get what they want!

You gotta look past tomorrow Morning Americans!

Alot of us could Live with it only becoming a Monument!

But then when it changes to a National Park You are Done!

You See what I'm Saying NVB?








>
>
>It might not be in the
>near future, but if past
>history tells us anything, the
>possibility it will affect your
>grand kids is certainly there.
>And if the Democrats once
>again take over Congress and
>the president's office, which is
>likely inevitable at some point,
>the odds dramtically increase.
>
>TONY MANDILE
>
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

>How To Hunt Coues Deer












[font color="blue"]She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words[/font]
 
If Congress is going to vote for a National Park 30 years from now like you're theorizing, whether it is a Monument first is immaterial. Rob Bishop could have gotten his PLI through and a vote 30 years from now would still make it a NP.

If it's a future NP you're worried about, then fight that fight when it happens because Monument status has absolutely no bearing on that vote, it will still have to get majority approval at that time. Your argument is a red herring and only confuses the situation by conflating a completely unrelated action with the current one in an over-dramatization of what anybody is actually proposing with the current declaration.

Grizzly
 
>If Congress is going to vote
>for a National Park 30
>years from now like you're
>theorizing, whether it is a
>Monument first is immaterial. Rob
>Bishop could have gotten his
>PLI through and a vote
>30 years from now would
>still make it a NP.
>
>
>If it's a future NP you're
>worried about, then fight that
>fight when it happens because
>Monument status has absolutely no
>bearing on that vote, it
>will still have to get
>majority approval at that time.
>Your argument is a red
>herring and only confuses the
>situation by conflating a completely
>unrelated action with the current
>one in an over-dramatization of
>what anybody is actually proposing
>with the current declaration.
>
>Grizzly

And in Your F'N Blind Eyes it's Never Happened Before?

Some Like Yourself Don't Look in to the Future for Our Future Generations I take it?












[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
Keeping it classy and intelligent, eh, elkassassin?

Once you start the attacks, you've already lost.

---

Tony, one could also argue that the best way to fasttrack a National Park would be to leave it unprotected so a future Congress sees an imminent threat that requires the NP designation. It's certainly plausible that the NM designation will actually prevent it from being a NP.

I, and many like me, feel better knowing the Bears Ears will look substantially similar 30 years from now. The possible alternative was never a good one.

If we expound this theoretical discussion to its two most extreme possibilities...

1) The land is privatized or mined, grazed, drilled to an unrecognizable state.

2) It ends up as a National Park but hunting is banned and federal control is heavy as is typical in National Parks

... then I'll take the latter any day. I know those are both extremes, but if your argument is based on one, its certainty fair for me to interject the opposing view.

Good talking to you. I always appreciate a respectful difference of opinions.

Grizzly
 
This action by the POTUS is exactly what got Trump elected.

People are sick and tired of government over-reach. Obama knows what's best for YOU. YOU do not know diddly-squat! Progressive elitism at it's finest( or worst).

I had to laugh at grizzly's comments about corporations getting rich off the backs of the rest of us.

NEWS FLASH: This just in. That's been going on for eternity. That's how good-paying jobs originate! Blue-collar jobs are as important as white-collar jobs! Yeah; someone gets rich! That's the way capitalism works! Contrary to what many of you elitist progressives may think.

I don't live in Utah; I probably will never go to BE. But I have a good sense of smell. And something here stinks...

This goes much deeper. Anyone who can't see that better pull their head out.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!
 
I don't believe either argument is that extreme. What I do believe is there are other ways to prevent your extreme compared to my extreme. LOL Additionally, I think there's more history of my extreme occurring than there is for your extreme.

The main reason given for creating the GC monument is preventing uranium mining around the GC which would supposedly pollute every water source within striking distance.

Legislation to preclude that was passed years ago and will remain in force until 2020. So prolonging that legislation further will do exactly the same thing as monument designation. Other protections for your concerns can also be legislated. That's better than the proverbial "throwing the baby out with the bath water approach." And as I had written in my letter to the newspaper, I bet the game department and the 20 sportsman's groups here that are AGAINST the monument would support the above type of legislation.

The other downside is control. As soon as something becomes a monument, it comes under the control of the NPS instead of the NFS. In most cases, user fees and other onerous regulations seem to pop up. As part of the latter, shutting down most of the secondary roads on the North Kaibab would make hunting there impossible for a lot of folks who can't hike or who have access to horses. The Saddle Mt. Wilderenss already did that to a huge chunk of land on the eastside of the NK.

Having spent three years guiding horseback hunters in Colorado's Weminuche Wilderness in the mid-1970s, I've seen the effects of closing off huge land masses to big chunk of prior users. It concentrates hunters who have to walk to the edges and outfitted horseback hunts are expensive, even for those who can afford it.

And amen to a civil discussion of the ISSUES without all the personal insults and name calling.

TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
The "fight the fight later" (in reference to slowing moving a monumemt to a NP) is precisely the strategy the "new occupiers" want you to take. Put off resistance until it is actually so far down the road it can't be undone.

It's the ole "slowly turning up the heat on the frog" method of" gently" changing the lifestyle.

For folks in their 30s and 40s, 30 years seems like an eternity, once you're over 60 you'll be stunned at how fast the last 30 years has gone past you.

The time to fight is early, not after 30 years of "new traditions" have been embedded in the next generations lives.

Or....enjoy the future you create for yourself and your children. Choice is yours. It's your future, ours is right now. Us old men are living the lives we built for ourselves, your futures is what you will build over the next 30 years. Our concerns about the future are for you, not ourselves, cuz we'll be long dead and forgotten, before your access is gone.


DC
 
>Keeping it classy and intelligent, eh,
>elkassassin?
>
>Once you start the attacks, you've
>already lost.
>
>---
>
>Tony, one could also argue that
>the best way to fasttrack
>a National Park would be
>to leave it unprotected so
>a future Congress sees an
>imminent threat that requires the
>NP designation. It's certainly plausible
>that the NM designation will
>actually prevent it from being
>a NP.
>
>I, and many like me, feel
>better knowing the Bears Ears
>will look substantially similar 30
>years from now. The possible
>alternative was never a good
>one.
>
>If we expound this theoretical discussion
>to its two most extreme
>possibilities...
>
>1) The land is privatized or
>mined, grazed, drilled to an
>unrecognizable state.
>
>2) It ends up as a
>National Park but hunting is
>banned and federal control is
>heavy as is typical in
>National Parks
>
>... then I'll take the latter
>any day. I know those
>are both extremes, but if
>your argument is based on
>one, its certainty fair for
>me to interject the opposing
>view.
>
>Good talking to you. I always
>appreciate a respectful difference of
>opinions.
>
>Grizzly

No Attacks at all!

Stating the way it is!

Funny how some will take the 'Short Better' of things!

Again!

You've gotta look past tomorrow Morning on Certain Things!

HAPPY NEW YEAR!












[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
+1 2Lumpy


I don't think there is any other quality
so essential to success of any kind as the
quality of perseverance. It overcomes
almost everything, even nature.
-John D. Rockefeller
 
Sorry but this is a move in the wrong direction. No matter how you cut it, the entire idea is horrible that a person can simply mandate such a policy over such a huge chunk of land with one little swipe of the pen. There are many concerns here...

First of all such actions increase the support and demand for state ownership of public lands. Sorry but as seen here it is already to a point where people are fed up with Washington over reach. This in and of itself will lead to stronger support for the transfer of public lands.

Second, moving the land from control by the NFS to NPS is a major step in power and control. As has been mentioned there is not real requirement for public input when it comes to the NPS. At least with the NFS they had rules for considering and gathering public input. Sorry but the NPS system will not care about your family tradition of rabbit hunting, or the fact that 4 generation have spent spring break camping in the same area and shed hunting spring break. When they decide to limit something or charge a fee there is really nothing to stop them.

Another issue, under this new designation, this it will become a destination. While this sounds good for economy it also brings in a ton of crap people. Vandalism will increase, crime will increase, areas once open to public access will be fenced off for resource protection. Fines for walking off the trail will occur and many of the "cultural" sites will end up looted.

For those stating that hunting will still occur, realize that for now that is true. However there really is not much to prevent this from occurring. There are 2 national monuments near me in CO. Neither allow hunting and until recently you were not even allowed to have a firearm. There is no shed hunting allowed.

Sadly this is a bad step. It will hurt more than it will help. The entire system needs to be changed in order to prevent more of this occurring.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-17 AT 09:58AM (MST)[p]Elk96,

You should probably read the Bears Ear Proclamation before you start saying that management goes to the National Park Service.

Quote:
The Secretary of Agriculture and the Secretary of the Interior (Secretaries) shall manage the monument through the U.S. Forest Service (USFS) and the Bureau of Land Management (BLM), pursuant to their respective applicable legal authorities, to implement the purposes of this proclamation. The USFS shall manage that portion of the monument within the boundaries of the National Forest System (NFS), and the BLM shall manage the remainder of the monument. The lands administered by the USFS shall be managed as part of the Manti-La Sal National Forest. The lands administered by the BLM shall be managed as a unit of the National Landscape Conservation System, pursuant to applicable legal authorities.


It goes on to say that the NPS shall be consulted but they do not manage the Bears Ear as a National Park, yet.
 
Locally both the Sierra Club and Sinapu have celebrated this designation as a major win. How can anyone think this is a good move when those 2 groups are excited?

Many people are missing this issue. Moving from NFS/BLM land to NPS means little or no public input. Sorry but under the NFS and BLM laws they have to create management plans based on public comments. The plan when presented can go under arbitration before being put into place. In this system we all have the opportunity to contest the plans. Under the monument rules there is no arbitration.

So why would Sierra Club and Sinapu celebrate? This designation in combination with the ESA will lead to a major issue for hunters and ranchers in the area. The is considered prime habitat for the recovery of the Mexican Grey Wolf. By combining the 2 forces of the ESA and the monument designation they will have a fast track pathway to Creating the Mexican Grey wolf recovery zone. In this zone human activity will decrease. They will make a move for trapping bans, predator control bans and as a result the prdator populations will grow and the prey populations will decrease. They see this as a huge win.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-17 AT 02:12PM (MST)[p]Never mind.

Its not worth having the conversation if people won't even take the time to read the actual legal Proclamation.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-17
>AT 09:58?AM (MST)
>
>Elk96,
>
>You should probably read the Bears
>Ear Proclamation before you start
>saying that management goes to
>the National Park Service.
>
>Quote:
>The Secretary of Agriculture and the
>Secretary of the Interior (Secretaries)
>shall manage the monument through
>the U.S. Forest Service (USFS)
>and the Bureau of Land
>Management (BLM), pursuant to their
>respective applicable legal authorities, to
>implement the purposes of this
>proclamation. The USFS shall manage
>that portion of the monument
>within the boundaries of the
>National Forest System (NFS), and
>the BLM shall manage the
>remainder of the monument. The
>lands administered by the USFS
>shall be managed as part
>of the Manti-La Sal National
>Forest. The lands administered by
>the BLM shall be managed
>as a unit of the
>National Landscape Conservation System, pursuant
>to applicable legal authorities.
>
>
>It goes on to say that
>the NPS shall be consulted
>but they do not manage
>the Bears Ear as a
>National Park, yet.

And You Notice NeMont Ended it with 'yet'!










[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
>Is it chiseled in stone?

Its the Enabling Act of the actual Monument and would require an Act of Congress to amend. At least it is in writing.

Which part of the National Park hysteria is chiseled in stone?

Grizzly
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-17
>>AT 09:58?AM (MST)
>>
>>Elk96,
>>
>>You should probably read the Bears
>>Ear Proclamation before you start
>>saying that management goes to
>>the National Park Service.
>>
>>Quote:
>>The Secretary of Agriculture and the
>>Secretary of the Interior (Secretaries)
>>shall manage the monument through
>>the U.S. Forest Service (USFS)
>>and the Bureau of Land
>>Management (BLM), pursuant to their
>>respective applicable legal authorities, to
>>implement the purposes of this
>>proclamation. The USFS shall manage
>>that portion of the monument
>>within the boundaries of the
>>National Forest System (NFS), and
>>the BLM shall manage the
>>remainder of the monument. The
>>lands administered by the USFS
>>shall be managed as part
>>of the Manti-La Sal National
>>Forest. The lands administered by
>>the BLM shall be managed
>>as a unit of the
>>National Landscape Conservation System, pursuant
>>to applicable legal authorities.
>>
>>
>>It goes on to say that
>>the NPS shall be consulted
>>but they do not manage
>>the Bears Ear as a
>>National Park, yet.
>
>And You Notice NeMont Ended it
>with 'yet'!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake
>Trout that took them Elk
>
>out!:D[/font]
>
>

Elkass,

So you believe your Congressional Delegation would go along with making this a National Park? You positions on what your Reps and Senators can do for you is about as consistent as your sex life ie. you have none.

It takes an act of congress to make this a National Park.

For the nonreaders who believe this is monument is going to be managed by the NPS all I have to say is that you are one of the idiots I get chuckle out of. If you are going to claim things you should at least do 5 minutes of homework before you chime in.

Why was the state of Nevada smart enough to get word "hunting" in the proclamation for their monument but Utards were too stupid to sit at the table and defend hunting on these Bears Ear? It because Utards are a special kind of stupid when it comes to public lands and whining about "their" Heritage, instead of trying to protect it.

Nemont
 
>>>LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-17
>>>AT 09:58?AM (MST)
>>>
>>>Elk96,
>>>
>>>You should probably read the Bears
>>>Ear Proclamation before you start
>>>saying that management goes to
>>>the National Park Service.
>>>
>>>Quote:
>>>The Secretary of Agriculture and the
>>>Secretary of the Interior (Secretaries)
>>>shall manage the monument through
>>>the U.S. Forest Service (USFS)
>>>and the Bureau of Land
>>>Management (BLM), pursuant to their
>>>respective applicable legal authorities, to
>>>implement the purposes of this
>>>proclamation. The USFS shall manage
>>>that portion of the monument
>>>within the boundaries of the
>>>National Forest System (NFS), and
>>>the BLM shall manage the
>>>remainder of the monument. The
>>>lands administered by the USFS
>>>shall be managed as part
>>>of the Manti-La Sal National
>>>Forest. The lands administered by
>>>the BLM shall be managed
>>>as a unit of the
>>>National Landscape Conservation System, pursuant
>>>to applicable legal authorities.
>>>
>>>
>>>It goes on to say that
>>>the NPS shall be consulted
>>>but they do not manage
>>>the Bears Ear as a
>>>National Park, yet.
>>
>>And You Notice NeMont Ended it
>>with 'yet'!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake
>>Trout that took them Elk
>>
>>out!:D[/font]
>>
>>
>
>Elkass,
>
>So you believe your Congressional Delegation
>would go along with making
>this a National Park?
> You positions on what
>your Reps and Senators can
>do for you is about
>as consistent as your sex
>life ie. you have none.
>
>
>It takes an act of congress
>to make this a National
>Park.
>
>For the nonreaders who believe this
>is monument is going to
>be managed by the NPS
>all I have to say
>is that you are one
>of the idiots I get
> chuckle out of.
> If you are going
>to claim things you should
>at least do 5 minutes
>of homework before you chime
>in.
>
>Why was the state of Nevada
>smart enough to get word
>"hunting" in the proclamation for
>their monument but Utards were
>too stupid to sit at
>the table and defend hunting
>on these Bears Ear?
> It because Utards are
>a special kind of stupid
>when it comes to public
>lands and whining about "their"
>Heritage, instead of trying to
>protect it.
>
>Nemont

WOW NeMont!

You Know more about me than I Know Myself!

So?

If Obama decided to Throw His Weight aeound again within the next few days,Are You Sayin that would be an Act of Congress?

What You Don't F'N Realize I Guess is that with what Obama Just Pulled off they Have their F'N Foot in the F'N Door!

We Are Gettin More Out-F'N-numbered by People like Yourself at an Alarming Rate!

You've Got Kids,Don't know Who Sired them,but maybe you ought to think about their Future & Their Kid's Future just a little!

I Typed/Posted just a few Words!

But the 'yet' part must of got to you?














[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-17 AT 06:53PM (MST)[p]>>>>LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-17
>>>>AT 09:58?AM (MST)
>>>>
>>>>Elk96,
>>>>
>>>>You should probably read the Bears
>>>>Ear Proclamation before you start
>>>>saying that management goes to
>>>>the National Park Service.
>>>>
>>>>Quote:
>>>>The Secretary of Agriculture and the
>>>>Secretary of the Interior (Secretaries)
>>>>shall manage the monument through
>>>>the U.S. Forest Service (USFS)
>>>>and the Bureau of Land
>>>>Management (BLM), pursuant to their
>>>>respective applicable legal authorities, to
>>>>implement the purposes of this
>>>>proclamation. The USFS shall manage
>>>>that portion of the monument
>>>>within the boundaries of the
>>>>National Forest System (NFS), and
>>>>the BLM shall manage the
>>>>remainder of the monument. The
>>>>lands administered by the USFS
>>>>shall be managed as part
>>>>of the Manti-La Sal National
>>>>Forest. The lands administered by
>>>>the BLM shall be managed
>>>>as a unit of the
>>>>National Landscape Conservation System, pursuant
>>>>to applicable legal authorities.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>It goes on to say that
>>>>the NPS shall be consulted
>>>>but they do not manage
>>>>the Bears Ear as a
>>>>National Park, yet.
>>>
>>>And You Notice NeMont Ended it
>>>with 'yet'!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake
>>>Trout that took them Elk
>>>
>>>out!:D[/font]
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Elkass,
>>
>>So you believe your Congressional Delegation
>>would go along with making
>>this a National Park?
>> You positions on what
>>your Reps and Senators can
>>do for you is about
>>as consistent as your sex
>>life ie. you have none.
>>
>>
>>It takes an act of congress
>>to make this a National
>>Park.
>>
>>For the nonreaders who believe this
>>is monument is going to
>>be managed by the NPS
>>all I have to say
>>is that you are one
>>of the idiots I get
>> chuckle out of.
>> If you are going
>>to claim things you should
>>at least do 5 minutes
>>of homework before you chime
>>in.
>>
>>Why was the state of Nevada
>>smart enough to get word
>>"hunting" in the proclamation for
>>their monument but Utards were
>>too stupid to sit at
>>the table and defend hunting
>>on these Bears Ear?
>> It because Utards are
>>a special kind of stupid
>>when it comes to public
>>lands and whining about "their"
>>Heritage, instead of trying to
>>protect it.
>>
>>Nemont
>
>WOW NeMont!
>
>You Know more about me than
>I Know Myself!
>
>So?
>
>If Obama decided to Throw His
>Weight aeound again within the
>next few days,Are You Sayin
>that would be an Act
>of Congress?
>
>What You Don't F'N Realize I
>Guess is that with what
>Obama Just Pulled off they
>Have their F'N Foot in
>the F'N Door!
>
>We Are Gettin More Out-F'N-numbered by
>People like Yourself at an
>Alarming Rate!
>
>You've Got Kids,Don't know Who Sired
>them,but maybe you ought to
>think about their Future &
>Their Kid's Future just a
>little!
>
>I Typed/Posted just a few Words!
>
>
>But the 'yet' part must of
>got to you?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake
>Trout that took them Elk
>
>out!:D[/font]
>
>


Unlike you, I both sired my children and love them enough to leave them something besides a $20 trillion. The Feds foot has been in the door since Utah was first made a state. Go read what your forefathers agrees to.


You only care if you get to keep your points for your tags and Obama's vacation.

It's Utard logic at it's best.

Nemont
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-17
>AT 06:53?PM (MST)
>
>>>>>LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-17
>>>>>AT 09:58?AM (MST)
>>>>>
>>>>>Elk96,
>>>>>
>>>>>You should probably read the Bears
>>>>>Ear Proclamation before you start
>>>>>saying that management goes to
>>>>>the National Park Service.
>>>>>
>>>>>Quote:
>>>>>The Secretary of Agriculture and the
>>>>>Secretary of the Interior (Secretaries)
>>>>>shall manage the monument through
>>>>>the U.S. Forest Service (USFS)
>>>>>and the Bureau of Land
>>>>>Management (BLM), pursuant to their
>>>>>respective applicable legal authorities, to
>>>>>implement the purposes of this
>>>>>proclamation. The USFS shall manage
>>>>>that portion of the monument
>>>>>within the boundaries of the
>>>>>National Forest System (NFS), and
>>>>>the BLM shall manage the
>>>>>remainder of the monument. The
>>>>>lands administered by the USFS
>>>>>shall be managed as part
>>>>>of the Manti-La Sal National
>>>>>Forest. The lands administered by
>>>>>the BLM shall be managed
>>>>>as a unit of the
>>>>>National Landscape Conservation System, pursuant
>>>>>to applicable legal authorities.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>It goes on to say that
>>>>>the NPS shall be consulted
>>>>>but they do not manage
>>>>>the Bears Ear as a
>>>>>National Park, yet.
>>>>
>>>>And You Notice NeMont Ended it
>>>>with 'yet'!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake
>>>>Trout that took them Elk
>>>>
>>>>out!:D[/font]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Elkass,
>>>
>>>So you believe your Congressional Delegation
>>>would go along with making
>>>this a National Park?
>>> You positions on what
>>>your Reps and Senators can
>>>do for you is about
>>>as consistent as your sex
>>>life ie. you have none.
>>>
>>>
>>>It takes an act of congress
>>>to make this a National
>>>Park.
>>>
>>>For the nonreaders who believe this
>>>is monument is going to
>>>be managed by the NPS
>>>all I have to say
>>>is that you are one
>>>of the idiots I get
>>> chuckle out of.
>>> If you are going
>>>to claim things you should
>>>at least do 5 minutes
>>>of homework before you chime
>>>in.
>>>
>>>Why was the state of Nevada
>>>smart enough to get word
>>>"hunting" in the proclamation for
>>>their monument but Utards were
>>>too stupid to sit at
>>>the table and defend hunting
>>>on these Bears Ear?
>>> It because Utards are
>>>a special kind of stupid
>>>when it comes to public
>>>lands and whining about "their"
>>>Heritage, instead of trying to
>>>protect it.
>>>
>>>Nemont
>>
>>WOW NeMont!
>>
>>You Know more about me than
>>I Know Myself!
>>
>>So?
>>
>>If Obama decided to Throw His
>>Weight aeound again within the
>>next few days,Are You Sayin
>>that would be an Act
>>of Congress?
>>
>>What You Don't F'N Realize I
>>Guess is that with what
>>Obama Just Pulled off they
>>Have their F'N Foot in
>>the F'N Door!
>>
>>We Are Gettin More Out-F'N-numbered by
>>People like Yourself at an
>>Alarming Rate!
>>
>>You've Got Kids,Don't know Who Sired
>>them,but maybe you ought to
>>think about their Future &
>>Their Kid's Future just a
>>little!
>>
>>I Typed/Posted just a few Words!
>>
>>
>>But the 'yet' part must of
>>got to you?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake
>>Trout that took them Elk
>>
>>out!:D[/font]
>>
>>
>
>
>Unlike you, I both sired my
>children and love them enough
>to leave them something besides
>a $20 trillion. The
>Feds foot has been in
>the door since Utah was
>first made a state.
>Go read what your forefathers
>agrees to.
>
>
>You only care if you get
>to keep your points for
>your tags and Obama's vacation.
>
>
>It's Utard logic at it's best.
>
>
>Nemont

Leave them 20 Trillion?

Wish I Had that kinda Money!

U-TARDS Have Montanians Out Gunned & Out Ammoed So Watch your F'N Step there Tough Guy!












[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
You wouldn't be man enough if it came a shooting war. You would be Like your hero and too stupid to understand a snow drift.

Nemont
 

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