Facts about the San Juan Area?

cantkillathing

Very Active Member
Messages
1,458
16 years ago the Different environmental groups some how wanted to push for the whole San Juan area to be a wilderness area and to close it all down. Locals opposed it, put up resistance and they were given about 47,000 acres and were fine with that for now.
Fast forward to about 3 years ago. Environmental groups found a loop hole in the system, if we could get the Gunnison sage grouse to be put on the endangered species list we could eventually get more areas locked up. Meetings were held and the local farmers and ranchers that were going to be hit the hardest put up a fight, this fight is not over it is still being pushed, trying to take farming and ranching away for the protection of Gunnison Sage Grouse.
2 years ago we were instructed to come up with a proposal for the Bears Ears area, a board was put together, a coalition of tribal members, and locals, elected officials. Everyone on the board knew they had to give up something. They compromised and Cedar Mesa and other areas were going to be designated as I cant remember exactly what it was going to be called, something like Tribal inner agency wilderness. Anyhow everyone was okay with it, compromised again like 16 years ago. Well SUWA, Grand Ol Broads and other environmental groups persuaded with money that they wanted the whole pie, so they found funding and the loop hole to push a different agenda. At this point the group fizzled out, Rob Bishop came up with his PLI, and all the effort that was happening was wasted. Then it came down to 2 otions 1.9 million acre national monument, or PLI plan. Both plans suck to high hell.
Both plans were shotgun approaches no compromise.
So instead of a 1.9 million acre monument it is a 1.3 million acre monument. I am sure eventually the rest will be added some how. Dont forget about the Gunnison Sage grouse, that went under radar and is still out there. The private property is what they will take next with the grouse proposal. Agenda 21.
I hope some people will wake up and realize our freedoms and land is being taken from us federally.
 
I've Got My Ass Bashed When I Mention Government Over-Reach!

It Happens in many Different Ways!

If at First they can't Take it All!

They'll take some!

They'll take a little!

Then Later they'll get their Hands on all of it!

The People will Only Wake the HELL Up when it's Too Damn Late!

I'd Like to know How Much Money has been Wasted on Prairie Chickens?









[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
Just wait until they manage to get a pair of Mexican Grey Wolves in the area. The ESA and monument designation will screw everything up.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-03-17 AT 02:14PM (MST)[p]I'm just glad there is a question mark after... "Facts about the San Juan Area" in the title since AGENDA 21 was brought up. That kind of ruins all credibility to me.
 
same as dinosaur monument made it bigger then got rid of land owners.we need to wake up the government takes it all.
 
Everybody should read Hal Herring's article that he wrote this week for Field & Stream concerning hunting, public access, and National Monuments.

It is well-sourced and gives actual fact-based information with links to the sources so we can see for ourselves.

We can all have differing opinions, but they should at least be informed opinions.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/sportsmans-view-national-monuments

Grizzly
 
Facts according to Who?

Well take it from people that are living it. If you dont believe it come live here for a month or so and talk with the locals, talk to those that attended the meetings or who were involved. If you believe every articulated false document out there then keep reading.
I will never be able to articulate my reports to convince you of the truth of what is happening here. It's like me being in the 9th grade and seeing my teacher or Principle doing something wrong and I tell someone about it. The teacher and Principle will articulate it better and everyone will believe them over me. But the truth is they did something wrong and the public will believe them over the experience.
Sally Jewel came down to Bluff to hold a meeting to get local feed back. 20 buses of people were bused in to say they were local and for the national monument. The locals were outnumbered 30 to 1 at this meeting. They did a draw system to allow you to make a comment. if you were lucky enough to get drawn you got to give a comment at the meeting. I think there was about 5 locals that got to speak, all against NM. 50 or more comments that were not from the area for the NM.
All of our local leaders, county commissioners against it, Malcolm Lehi who was the Ute spokesman at time was for the NM, but the Ute tribe had a meeting and kicked him out and voted in someone else, because they were agaisnt the NM.
Mark Maryboy with the Navajo was voted out by Commissioner Benally to represent the Navajo, and she is against it voicing it for her people.
 
Mark Maryboy is bought and paid, and was voted out Nemont. Listen to commissioner benally comments. She is voted in by her people. She beat Mark Maryboy out, the navajo in the area were sick of his corruption. Listen to her, she is local, listen to the Old Navajo Lady Jones, she is local. Listen to the Suzzett Morris New Ute leader in area, she was voted in beating out Malcolm Lehi. All these so called Coalition were all voted out, but the money ball was already rolling selling out there own people. But they dont care they have a pretty penny for it. The New leaders were put in because of this crap.
But you keep believing the media outlets.
 
Be Specific Nemont what was contradicting. I explain it too you if you are specific. Give you a history of each speaker that is local, and who is not local.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17 AT 10:21AM (MST)[p]Go to the 20 minute mark and the show of hands of who is there.

The tribal councils don't agree with what you are saying about their support. So there are some tribal member who oppose the monument? That is called having the right to disagree correct? Are saying those tribal members who opposed it also speak for every tribal member or for themselves?

What makes you believe only locals get a say in what happens to lands owned by all Americans, they get input but aren't the deciders of what ultimately happens and never have been.

Name a single person who spoke who didn't have an interest in those lands of some sort.

I get it you are butthurt but be specific on what laws were broken to get to this designation, who spoke that wasn't a stake holder and what exactly your congressional delegation did to crap down their leg in a feeble attempt to avoid the Designation?

If you build a business on land you don't own and then the owner of that land changes their minds, whose fault is it?


Nemont
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17 AT 11:26AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17 AT 11:24?AM (MST)

Way to point out your ignorance to it all. You dont like the truth so the you start saying I am butthurt. I never stated any laws were broke, just the fact the tactics that were used is a punch of crap. Sally Jewel came down to here the locals, the left wing couldn't handle the idea to let locals be heard so with the funding of Leonardo Decaprio of 13 million dollars, they were able to bus in people that wanted a free ride, free lunch, and free shirt to just be a nuisance to the process.
YOu have not clue on what is going on, so keep reading your media source and believing what your being fed.

At the 20 minute mark the show of hands was a joke. You could probably hear a local yell bullshit none of those people are from this area.

Again they were bused in, lied they were not locals from the area. Not one of them could point our where the Bears Ears was even located from Bluff.
 
Really? It happened here first at the end of the Clinton Administration with the Upper Missouri River Breaks National Monument. Nary a single Utard stood up and/or lifted a finger to aid us. So tell me why I should give two $hits about your monument? The world didn't end.

The properties surround the UMRBNM have sky rocketed in value in the last 16 years and there are still 10,000 cattle grazing on it. Hunting and fishing is great and access is actually improved. There are still private inholdings and those to have increased dramatically in value because of the recreational opportunities.

I have been through it up close and personal and almost all your hysteria isn't based on anything other than emotion.

So cry if it makes you feel better but this is a done deal and even Trump can't fix it for you so you better figure out how to make some lemonade out the lemons you got. The locals don't own those lands and don't get the final say on what happens to them, just like they wouldn't if the states owned and then sold them to the highest bidder.

To claim that you know all is just a claim you can't back up.

Nemont
 
You feel like you obviously know more than a local does, sitting on the net reading his articles learning how to save the world. feeding on the media's lies and deception to push there own agenda and not what really lye's beneath what they are pushing. Since you know everything about the bears ears. The history of the area, the battles we face to survive. Your a real help to all of us.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17 AT 11:44AM (MST)[p]I never said anything of the sort, I said the locals aren't the only owners of those lands nor are they the only deciders. They get input, that is all. I never said I know more, that was your idea.

Be specific on why the all American Taxpayers owe you a living off of public lands and how this designation affects that ability to make a living.

Times change and people who build their businesses and lives on lands they don't own have to deal with that when the land owners decide to do something different.

Your hysteria doesn't match the facts.

Utah is getting is exactly what it deserves for all the anti public lands office holders they send to DC. Utah voters chose poorly.

Nemont
 
NeMont said:
""Really? It happened here first at the end of the Clinton Administration with the Upper Missouri River Breaks National Monument. Nary a single Utard stood up and/or lifted a finger to aid us. So tell me why I should give two $hits about your monument? The world didn't end.""

Hey nemonturd, did you ask for help on your monument? So sorry it happened but by your rants it sounds like you must have favored it anyway so what's your biotch?

I can't think, for the life of me, that anyone would ask for your help on anything. Please stop trying to help us poor dumb utards.

The only thing you've proven here in that you can read and be duped by liberal media stories.

There. I feel better.
Zeke
 
Hey Zeke,

GFYS. Utards only care when their ox gets gored and then it is the end of the world. No I didn't favor it but that didn't much matter.

There is no help for Utards just look at the anti hunting and anti public lands crew you all send to DC. Everyone who loves their hunting on public lands now has to fight against your Representatives and Senators so no help has ever come from Utah when it comes to access to good hunting.

So try this how about helping out fellow hunters across the United States and send some decent politicians to DC. I suspect that won't happen so thanks for nothing, again.

Nemont
 
Hey Cant?

Hey Zeke?

You Ever Argued with a F'N Rock?

I Have!









[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
And God Forbid if You Mention Government Over-Reach!










[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
Hey NeMont!

Some of These AssssHoles Making Monuments don't even know where the Bears Ears are!

What's Your Excuse for that BS?










[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17 AT 02:08PM (MST)[p]Elkass,

That isn't me. Were you ever in the Upper Missouri River Breaks? We can both read maps right?

My argument isn't that monuments are all good or that Obama acted in the correct way. It is that congress delegated this power to the any President and if you should be Pi$$ed at any body it is congress for not taking it back for the last 110 years.

Government overreach happens every day but guess what taking my lands and giving them to the states is over reach as well given that your forefather stated they Forever give up claim to those lands. Read it in your Enabling act. Were you forefathers liars?

So tell me this what was done illegally in the making of the Bears Ear monument? Why does the Utah delegation in DC hate my grand children so much and why do they continue to get reelected by large margins?

I will make a prediction in 20 years: The Bears Ear will continue to have public land grazing and public access hunting and it will still be managed by the FS and BLM, like the proclamation states and not be managed by the National Parks Service. Care to place a wager on that.

The way you guys are acting you would think there are already no trespassing signs out and jack booted thugs driving people of the land.

Nemont
 
So NeMont?

You Look in to the Future/Your Kids Future by only 20 Years?

What about their Kids/Your Grand Kids?

You Still Didn't Answer My Question?

Why would it be Fair for People to Make Monuments that Don't even know where they're making them?











[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17 AT 03:05PM (MST)[p]Fair? What on earth is fair? You should of figured out that world isn't fair a long time ago. The more important question is was it justified, was it the correct thing to do and was it legal. Fair doesn't enter into the equation.

No, I don't just look 20 years but if I made it 50 or 100 years you still wouldn't bet me that those activities will still be taking place.

So in 200 years the Bears Ear will be there and I bet there will still be cattle grazing on it and people using to recreate on and enjoying the beauty of it. Unless Rob Bishop and Chaffetz and company get their way, then it will all be private and off limits to my grand children and great grand children etc.

Pick your poison.

Nemont
 
I'd bet you in 50 or 100 years!

Neither F'N one of us will be here to Collect!:D

You're gonna Lose the Bet In Heaven,Or I Mean HELL!:D









[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
You Know NeMont?

I Don't know what your Problem with TARDS is?

I've Told You for Years We've been getting out numbered by the 'Other Types' for Years!

Yes,seeing Rob Bishop Re-Elected Proves it!

No!

I Didn't Vote for Him!

I Don't See many TARDS Bashing Montanians?











[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17 AT 03:41PM (MST)[p]> You Know NeMont?
>
>I Don't know what your Problem
>with TARDS is?
>
>I've Told You for Years We've
>been getting out numbered by
>the 'Other Types' for Years!
>
>
>Yes,seeing Rob Bishop Re-Elected Proves it!
>
>
>No!
>
>I Didn't Vote for Him!
>
>I Don't See many TARDS Bashing
>Montanians?
>

So that must mean the majority of Utah residents either don't care about public lands or support the Transfer?

The loudest voices in congress,pushing for public lands transfer, were sent to DC from Utah. Whom should I bash for that? People from Utah for sending them or my fellow Montanan's who have to live with what your guys and gal get through? Seems like the best people to bash are the people who keep electing these members of congress.

So tell me who I should bash?

Nemont
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17
>AT 03:41?PM (MST)

>
>> You Know NeMont?
>>
>>I Don't know what your Problem
>>with TARDS is?
>>
>>I've Told You for Years We've
>>been getting out numbered by
>>the 'Other Types' for Years!
>>
>>
>>Yes,seeing Rob Bishop Re-Elected Proves it!
>>
>>
>>No!
>>
>>I Didn't Vote for Him!
>>
>>I Don't See many TARDS Bashing
>>Montanians?
>>
>
>So that must mean the majority
>of Utah residents either don't
>care about public lands or
>support the Transfer?
>
>The loudest voices in congress,pushing for
>public lands transfer, were sent
>to DC from Utah.
>Whom should I bash for
>that? People from Utah
>for sending them or my
>fellow Montanan's who have to
>live with what your
>guys and gal get through?
> Seems like the
>best people to bash are
>the people who keep electing
>these members of congress.
>
>So tell me who I should
>bash?
>
>Nemont

Bash Whoever you Want!

But Don't Bash The Good Guys that Didn't Vote In/Re-Elect the JACK-Asses!












[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
Well nemonturd,
If you feel that you must bash someone, in a misguided attempt to be a man, feel free to bash anyone you wish. That's the liberal, whiner way and you've perfected it.

Did you really just tell me to "GFYS"? I'm almost feeling sorry for you now.

So are you for or against the monument status or are you just itching for a fight like always? Tough for anyone to tell where you stand when you just shoot-off your trap!.

Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17 AT 04:29PM (MST)[p]Zeke,

Ah the liberal label. That is some funny Shyt right there. Ask yourself: why you are wanting to jump in on this or why you feel offended by the Utard label when it comes to the public land transfer agenda?

Explain how come all these jokers come from Utah? Is there something in the water there or are they just doing the will of the people there? Something has to be going if the entire delegation has bought into the idea of transfer.

Elk,

How are those of from the outside able to figure out who is a isn't a "good" guy when the Utah delegation is all on board with transfer and all win by double digits in every election? Hard to sort out who is a good guy in Utah.

So what is the answer? You say that the locals should have more say and that the Federal Government is over reaching on everything. Your Representatives and Senators want to transfer it to the states to be developed or sold.

Do you believe the Bears Ear worth protecting and keeping in the public trust?

Nemont
 
Nemont, Your hysteria of public land being sold off is the same as us locals not trusting NM. Your reading the same paper again.
 
>Nemont, Your hysteria of public
>land being sold off is
>the same as us locals
>not trusting NM. Your
>reading the same paper again.
>

Hysteria or Fact?

https://trustlands.utah.gov/business-groups/surface/land-sales-2/

75937statelanddisposals.jpg


"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17 AT 05:35PM (MST)[p]Can'tkill,

Couple of things if that public land were transferred to the states there is no guarantee at all they won't be sold. Also given the current U.S. debt if transfer happened, why would the current owner transfer the mineral rights on those lands?


So where would the state of Utah get the money to mange these lands?

What does your state enabling act mean?

Second. That the people inhabiting said proposed State do agree and declare that they forever disclaim all right and title to the unappropriated public lands lying within the boundaries thereof; and to all lands lying within said limits owned or held by any Indian or Indian tribes; and that until the title thereto shall have been extinguished by the United States, the same shall be and remain subject to the disposition of the United States, and said Indian lands shall remain under the absolute jurisdiction and control of the Congress of the United States; that the lands belonging to citizens of the United States residing without the said State shall never be taxed at a higher rate than the lands belonging to residents thereof; that no taxes shall be imposed by the State on lands or property therein belonging to or which may hereafter be purchased by the United States or reserved for its use; but nothing herein, or in the ordinance herein provided for, shall preclude the said State from taxing, as other lands are taxed, any lands owned or held by any Indian who has severed his tribal relations and has obtained from the United States or from any person a title thereto by patent or other grant, save and except such lands as have been or may be granted to any Indian or Indians under any act of Congress containing a provision exempting the lands thus granted from taxation; but said ordinance shall provide that all such lands shall be exempt from taxation by said State so long and to such extent as such act of Congress may prescribe.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17
>AT 04:29?PM (MST)

>
>Zeke,
>
>Ah the liberal label. That
>is some funny Shyt right
>there. Ask yourself:
> why you are wanting
>to jump in on this
>or why you feel offended
>by the Utard label when
>it comes to the public
>land transfer agenda?
>
>Explain how come all these jokers
>come from Utah? Is
>there something in the water
>there or are they just
>doing the will of the
>people there? Something
>has to be going if
>the entire delegation has bought
>into the idea of transfer.
>
>
>Elk,
>
>How are those of from the
>outside able to figure out
>who is a isn't a
>"good" guy when the Utah
>delegation is all on board
>with transfer and all win
>by double digits in every
>election? Hard to
>sort out who is a
>good guy in Utah.
>
>So what is the answer?
>You say that the locals
>should have more say and
>that the Federal Government is
>over reaching on everything.
>Your Representatives and Senators want
>to transfer it to the
>states to be developed or
>sold.
>
>Do you believe the Bears Ear
>worth protecting and keeping in
>the public trust?
>
>Nemont

You ever Wonder why Things can't be left Alone?

You ever Hear the Phrase:

If It Ain't F'd Up,Don't F'k it Up?

You Only Look at the Short Side of Things!

Protect it!

But Don't Over Protect it!

The Day it's Over Protected is the Day You Lose!

If You Can't See they are 'Slowly' working it to Their Advantage You are Very Blind!

I Do Believe there is More Government Over-Reach Than You Can See!

If the Bundy's Weren't in Jail They'd Probably be putting on a Show down there!:D
















[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
Why is it, from the Utard perspective, that we don't mind government over reach as long as its state government.
 
From FoxNews...

Experts on public land law, however, argue that -- at least when it comes to the Bears Ears? designation -- very little will change in regards to grazing or the ranchers? livelihoods. Obama?s proclamation last month made clear that the Bureau of Land Management and the United States Forest Service will continue to administer grazing permits and leases to ?ensure ongoing consistency with the care and management? of both the flora and fauna in the monument and the protection of any Native American artifacts.

As for hunting and fishing -- both popular pastimes in the newly named national monument -- Utah will retain jurisdiction over its fish and wildlife management. The only change is that ATVS and other off-road vehicles will be required to stay on certain designated trails and roads.

?In the history of the West, ranchers have acquired a sense that they are effectively the owners of the land,? Charles Wilkinson, a law professor at the University of Colorado-Boulder, told FoxNews.com.
 
Here's for the record....again.

I'm against the States gaining ownership of federal lands and I'm also against the Federal government's (president's) over-reach through the antiquities act....for different reason but with similar outcomes. Sportsmen stand a real good chance of losing.

Seems simple to me. I'm against BOTH actions!

Good hell nemont, we are on the same page but you sure like to argue anyway!

I agree with bobcat, if it ain't broke don't spend billions to fix it! Greedy bastards!
Zeke
 
I'm on the same boat leave it the way it currently is, there was no problems. We created a solution for a problem that didn't exist.
 
>From FoxNews...
>
>Experts on public land law, however,
>argue that -- at least
>when it comes to the
>Bears Ears? designation -- very
>little will change in regards
>to grazing or the ranchers?
>livelihoods. Obama?s proclamation last month
>made clear that the Bureau
>of Land Management and the
>United States Forest Service will
>continue to administer grazing permits
>and leases to ?ensure ongoing
>consistency with the care and
>management? of both the flora
>and fauna in the monument
>and the protection of any
>Native American artifacts.
>
>As for hunting and fishing --
>both popular pastimes in the
>newly named national monument --
>Utah will retain jurisdiction over
>its fish and wildlife management.
>The only change is that
>ATVS and other off-road vehicles
>will be required to stay
>on certain designated trails and
>roads.
>
>?In the history of the West,
>ranchers have acquired a sense
>that they are effectively the
>owners of the land,? Charles
>Wilkinson, a law professor at
>the University of Colorado-Boulder, told
>FoxNews.com.

A Question for You grizzly?

Illegal ATV'ing Has been Illegal forever!

They all of a sudden gonna start Enforcing it?












[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
Here's another Deal!

A Bunch of People are all of a sudden worried about protecting what's left of ArrowHeads,Stones,Rock Structures & Etc!

And That's Fine!

But here We are in 2017!

It's Been Luted,Re-Luted & Still getting Luted!

Don't You Think it's just a little Too GAWD-DAMNED Late?

"""Don't Pick that Arrowhead up,Call the State/Feds & let them Pick it Up"""











[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
Somebody wanted to know where the SFW stood on this!

Forward to 2:12:45!










[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17 AT 09:43PM (MST)[p]I still have no idea where SFW stands.

Sounded a hell of a lot like to me they stand for having their hand picked Board made up of past presidents and koolaid chuggers holding the reins.

I got thrown into the sportsmen's caucus set to review the Bishop PLI. The SFW President at that time wouldn't take a stance because their membership was so diverse that they couldn't without disillusioning a substantial amount of members.

Until someone over there actually grows a spine and declares their stance you better damn well cut the number of hunters you claim you speak for in half.
Quit acting like the 1000 pound paper gorilla in the room and speak the hell up.
It's even more ironic when we remember the days when this group had members referring to the RMEF as the Rocky Mtn Wolf Foundation because of the stance on wolf management at the time. They had the guts to take a stance and publicize it. Does the paper gorilla? Step up Troy.

As far as fishermen are concerned, your founder made his stance "ABUNDANTLY" clear at the time.

So we are left to speculate about what "Whiny Liberals" and "Agenda21" will do to a BLM multiple use designation of 1.35 million acres, while we ignore what the people you recently elected promised to do. Steal your public lands. Almost 30 million acres. Congress has been back under a week and they've already removed the financial hurdle in stealing these lands. A week. Let that chit sink in.
The next 24 months are the most important time in your children's and grandchildrens lives.



"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-05-17
>AT 09:43?PM (MST)

>
>I still have no idea where
>SFW stands.
>
>Sounded a hell of a lot
>like to me they stand
>for having their hand picked
>Board made up of past
>presidents and koolaid chuggers holding
>the reins.
>
>I got thrown into the sportsmen's
>caucus set to review the
>Bishop PLI. The SFW President
>at that time wouldn't take
>a stance because their membership
>was so diverse that they
>couldn't without disillusioning a substantial
>amount of members.
>
>Until someone over there actually grows
>a spine and declares their
>stance you better damn well
>cut the number of hunters
>you claim you speak for
>in half.
>Quit acting like the 1000 pound
>paper gorilla in the room
>and speak the hell up.
>
>It's even more ironic when we
>remember the days when this
>group had members referring to
>the RMEF as the Rocky
>Mtn Wolf Foundation because of
>the stance on wolf management
>at the time. They had
>the guts to take a
>stance and publicize it. Does
>the paper gorilla? Step up
>Troy.
>
>As far as fishermen are concerned,
>your founder made his stance
>"ABUNDANTLY" clear at the time.
>
>
>So we are left to speculate
>about what "Whiny Liberals" and
>"Agenda21" will do to a
>BLM multiple use designation of
>1.35 million acres, while we
>ignore what the people you
>recently elected promised to do.
>Steal your public lands. Almost
>30 million acres. Congress has
>been back under a week
>and they've already removed the
>financial hurdle in stealing these
>lands. A week. Let that
>chit sink in.
>The next 24 months are the
>most important time in your
>children's and grandchildrens lives.
>
>
>
>"If the DWR was just doing
>its job, and
>wildlife and hunting were the actual
>focus,
>none of this process would even
>matter.
>But that is not the focus
>or the goal in any
>
>of this. The current DWR regime,
>and
>SFW were born out of wildlife
>declines,
>and are currently operated and funded
>
>under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
>
>tags would not even be worth
>anything if
>the focus was where it was
>supposed to
>be, and wildlife and tags were
>plentiful.
>But under the current business model,
>
>that is how the money and
>power is
>generated. It is generated through the
>
>rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
>resource. A resource that is supposed
>to
>be being beneficially managed for the
>
>masses that own that resource, ie.
>US.
>The problem is obvious, hedging is
>not a
>long term sustainable strategy, and
>others have to lose, for some
>to win. In
>this case it is us, the
>many, and our
>resources, that are being forced to
>lose,
>because there is a minority who's
>power
>and money is derived from our
>loses."
>
>LONETREE 3/15/16

So wiley?

What's your Own Take on it?










[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
On the Monument CAT or the whole fiasco?




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
>>It is well-sourced and gives actual fact-based information with links to the sources so we can see for ourselves.

*******
From the article:
In the past 110 years, 16 presidents, (eight Democrats and eight Republicans) have used the power of the Antiquities Act to designate 126 national monuments, ranging from Calvin Coolidge?s designation of the 320-square-foot Father Millett Cross, in Youngstown, N.Y., to the 140,000-square-mile Papahānaumokuākea Marine National Monument designated by George W. Bush. The first national monument, established by President Theodore Roosevelt, was Devil?s Tower, in Wyoming. Barack Obama has used the Act a record 29 times.
*******

Considering his bias, it's not surprising he didn't include one other number above: the 30 or so national monuments that are now national parks.

He opened his article by fondly recalling his quail hunt on a monument in New Mexico. I also recall once being able to hunt quail, deer and javelina on what became the Saguaro National Monument. Today, it is Saguaro National Park, with a ban on hunting.

So...in the interest of getting ALL THE FACTS here, rather than simple posting the link, I'll post the entire article by historian Robert Righter. Yeah, it's a long read, but it lays out the "facts" quite well.



*******
National Monuments to National Parks:
The Use of the Antiquities Act of 1906

ROBERT W. RIGHTER

In the heat of the 1932 battle to enlarge Grand Teton National Park, conservationist ##### Winger mused that "it would he nice if President Hoover would decide to make the territory embraced in the Jackson Hole Plan into a National Monument." [1] Winger, as well as other advocates, was frustrated by a slow, fickle Congress, which was reluctant to pass a park bill. Exhausting discussion, debate, letter writing, and congressional investigations had netted nothing. Quick presidential action could accomplish what park proponents desired. Eleven years later, in 1943, Winger obtained his wish?President Franklin Roosevelt established Jackson Hole National Monument. An expanded park, which could not be accomplished through the congressional process, came into being through executive fiat.

The case of Grand Teton National Park was not unique. National parks such as Grand Canyon, Bryce, Zion, Acadia (Maine), Olympic, and many others, were first created as national monuments. The reasons that these parks began as monuments varied, but surely a primary cause was political?one sympathetic president was easier to deal with than a hesitant Congress. Why not seek rapid presidential action rather than dilly dally with a tortoise-paced Congress?

The realization that the creation of national parks had more to do with presidential rather than congressional action calls into question the democratic origins of the national parks. Although there is no question that parks, properly understood, were established for the people, whether they were established by the people is another matter altogether. Pork-barrel politics created some; philanthropists intent on doing good work created others. And, of course, Congress created many. The objective of this essay, however, is to review the president's power in park-making through use of the Antiquities Act. By law, of course, Congress creates national parks. However, when Congress was tight-fisted, belligerent, or, more likely, lethargic, park proponents pulled the rabbit of the Antiquities Act out of the hat. Quite simply, under this 1906 act the president could set aside, by executive decree, areas as national monuments. Throughout the twentieth century zealous park proponents, as well as the National Park Service itself, were quite willing to circumvent the powers of Congress by appealing directly to the chief executive. Later, when the time became more propitious, the monument would be "upgraded" to a national park. [2]

The origins of the Antiquities Act of 1906 provide an understanding of this "back door" method of establishing national parks. Professional archeologists were the prime movers. Government officials assisted. The problem was vandalism on Southwest Indian archeological sites and the helplessness of federal officials to prevent it. The concern, however, was also with Congress. By the turn of the century the General Land Office, headed by Commissioner William A. Richards, recognized the urgent need to give protection to such important sites as the Petrified Forest and the Cliff Dwellers' region of Frijoles Canyon in New Mexico. Congress did not seem to share this concern. Specific legislation for specific sites failed, leaving Richards and the archeological community with the impression that hope for congressional action was futile. In 1904 Richards wrote the secretary of the interior: "What is needed is a general enactment, empowering the President to set apart, as national parks, all tracts of public land which . . . it is desirable to protect and utilize in the interest of the public." [3]

Commissioner Richards understood what needed to be done, and he also recognized how it could be done. As an ex-governor of Wyoming, he understood the power of the executive branch. Disappointed by Congress, he was anxious to invest power in the presidency. He was not alone; a growing circle of archeologists were also committed to action: Furthermore, Progressive conservationists such as Gifford Pinchot and Frederick Newell looked to a vigorous president to carry out their goals. Such professional men did not believe that debates over resource use should be carried on in Congress, a body prone to partisanship and political logrolling. Resource policies should be shaped by scientists and engineers, not politicians. Conservation historian Samuel Hays has argued forcefully that the conflict between Theodore Roosevelt and Congress over resource policy caused much discord. Eventually Roosevelt came to the opinion that the executive was the 'steward' of the public interest. Feeling that he, rather than Congress, voiced most accurately the popular will, he advocated direct as opposed to representative government." [4]

Such a political ideology was most evident in Roosevelt's vigorous use of the Forest Reserve Act of 1891. When Roosevelt came to power some forty-one forest reserves encompassed some forty-six million acres. In 1907, caught in political cross fire, Roosevelt signed away his executive privilege. But by then the system contained 159 forest reserves totaling over 150 million acres. [5] Certainly the vigorous leadership of Gifford Pinchot partially explains this avalanche of national forests, but there was no denying that executive decree could accomplish conservation objectives quickly and without devisive debate. National park advocates were envious. While Presidents Harrison, Cleveland, McKinley, and Roosevelt had created 159 national forests, during the same period Congress had authorized eleven national parks, and then only after years of promotion effort. [6] Given such evidence, it is not surprising that when the Antiquities Act was drafted it contained the privilege of executive decree to set aside "historic landmarks, historic and prehistoric structures, and other objects of historic or scientific interest" as national monuments. [7]

Congress, of course, did not relinquish its powers without debate. In the hearings over various versions of the Antiquities Act, legislators voiced considerable concern over the president's power. The majority of lawmakers agreed with the need for protection of Southwest prehistoric sites, but the idea of extending carte blanche to the executive branch worried some, particularly western congressmen. One way to reduce the chance for misuse was to limit the size of national monuments. Congressman John Shaforth of Colorado argued for a maximum of 320 acres, while his influential state colleague, Senator Henry M. Teller, was willing to extend monument size to a section, or 640 acres. Both Colorado congressmen were sympathetic to livestock interests and had experienced the "excesses" of the Forest Reserve Act in their state. [8] Although Teller's request received consideration when the final Antiquities Act emerged it read that national monuments "shall be confined to the smallest area compatible with proper care and management of the objects to be protected." [9]

Of course, such loose language left loopholes which even the portly William Howard Taft could slip through. Perhaps the broadest interpretation of this size limitation was President Jimmy Carter's declaration of seventeen Alaskan national monuments in 1978, totaling some 56,000,000 acres?certainly not what the critics or the framers of the Antiquities Act had in mind. [10]

What did the sponsors of the Antiquities Act envision? They agreed that national monuments would be small in area and geographically confined to the American Southwest. In fact, when Representative John Hall Stephens of Texas expressed his fear that the president might use the proposed act as Roosevelt had used the Forest Reserve Act, sponsor John Lacey assured his colleague that the two acts were entirely different, and that the act would simply be used to preserve "Indian remains on the pueblos in the Southwest. . . ." [11] After the bill become law (8 June 1906) its limited scope was emphasized by Edgar Hewett and Charles Lummis, both prominent in the Archaeological Institute of America, when they wrote President Roosevelt that "the purpose of this act is absolutely plain. It is an Act for the Preservation of American Antiquities. It provides for the preservation of conspicuous ruins, as national monuments, and for the preservation of material buried in the soil by excavation and installation in public museums. The law is perfectly simple and satisfactory to every body." [12]

If Congress had effectively limited the size and the location of monuments, there would be no story to tell. However, the president's hands were not tied in either category. The Antiquities Act of 1906 proved to be loosely written, and instead of the narrow archeological application envisioned by Hewett and Lummis, it was applied by enterprising presidents and park proponents at a broad range of sites and in such situations which might well have amazed sponsor John Lacey. In the constant tug-of-war between president and Congress, the act became a significant executive tool to shape sometimes controversial conservation policies.

From the beginning, it was evident that use of the act would not be geographically limited. Devil's Tower in eastern Wyoming was the first monument which Roosevelt established, disregarding the Southwest orientation of the act. The next four?Petrified Forest and Montezuma Castle in Arizona, and El Morro and Chaco Canyon in New Mexico?were certainly expected and within the intent of the act. Lassen Peak and Cinder Cone National Monuments, both established on 6 May 1907, represented a departure in that they were the first monuments which would be incorporated soon into a national park (Lassen Volcanic National Park, 16 August 1916). [13]

However, the establishment of Grand Canyon National Monument on 11 January 1908, was the first example of creating a monument in lieu of a park. Certainly the Grand Canyon possessed the quality and grandeur of a national park. It was first considered for national park status in 1882, when Benjamin Harrison, then a senator from Indiana, introduced a bill which failed. Twice more in the 1880s the Congress rejected park bills. Just why these bills died is not clear. Perhaps congressional leaders did not wish to expand a park system which was then limited to Yellowstone. More to the point, some opposition existed. Local businessmen failed to realize the value of a park, and mining interests wanted no barriers to mineral exploration of the canyon. Consequently, jurisdiction of the Grand Canyon underwent a strange bureaucratic metamorphosis which can only be explained in political terms.

Some protection was needed, and President Benjamin Harrison provided it. On 20 February 1893 he proclaimed Grand Canyon Forest Reserve, withdrawing the area from homestead entry. That much of the forest reserve was barren of trees did not disturb him. The irony did not escape local residents, however. They submitted a protest petition, which argued that the Grand Canyon was "strictly mineral country." [14] Clearly, the Harrison reserve proclamation was a holding action, and throughout the 1890s proponents attempted to achieve national park status. However, the opposition remained. Perhaps the Arizona newspaper Williams Sun represented a radical fringe, but surely it titillated many of its readers when it editorialized that the national park idea represented a "fiendish and diabolical scheme," and that whoever fathered such an idea must have been "suckled by a sow and raised by an idiot." "The fate of Arizona depends exclusively upon the development of her mineral resources," proclaimed the tabloid. [15]

Local opposition paralyzed congressional action. Protection from exploitation would have to come from the presidency. In June 1906, Theodore Roosevelt created Grand Canyon National Game Preserve. The preserve prevented hunting, trapping, killing, or capturing of game animals. Otherwise, it accomplished little. The Antiquities Act armed Roosevelt with a more potent protectionist weapon, and in January 1908, Executive Order 794 proclaimed Grand Canyon National Monument as "an object of unusual scientific interest, being the greatest eroded canyon within the United States." The monument, located within Grand Canyon National Forest, would continue to be administered by the United States Forest Service. [16]

Although President Roosevelt had done his best to protect Grand Canyon, conservationists were not pleased with either the monument status or Forest Service control. The agency itself recognized that it was more adept at managing trees than tourists. By 1914 "people problems" caused Chief Forester Henry Graves to admit that his bureau was not prepared to impose "the close supervision over the movements and actions of individuals which is the practice in the National Parks." [17]

Many in the private sector agreed with Graves. Perhaps the editor of the Saturday Evening Post was among the most strident when he wrote that the monument designation was really "a monument to our national ignorance and apathy, our national dilatoriness and shiftlessness." In his view, the Forest Service stood for "utility only," while the favored Park Service had "to do with beauty only." [18] Although more reserved, Secretary of the Interior Franklin Lane contended that Grand Canyon could "not, as a section of two national forests, a game refuge, or a national monument, be properly developed . . . effectively administered or adequately protected." [19] Congress could no longer resist, and in 1919 a bill establishing Grand Canyon National Park passed, thus ending the monument phase as well as Forest Service jurisdiction.

However, the curious liaison between Grand Canyon and the Antiquities Act was not over. On 22 December 1932, President Herbert Hoover established a new Grand Canyon National Monument. From 1927 on, the Park Service wished to expand the park with what it called the "Toroweap Addition to Grand Canyon National Park." However, when it came time for action, park service officials pushed for a national monument rather than a national park addition. [20] The officials reasoned that executive action would be more secret and thus prevent land inflation. They also hoped to avoid congressional debate and roadblocks. Hoover's proclamation presented the opponents with a fait accompli, and the best local ranchers?concerned about the loss of grazing lands?could do was sign a petition questioning the circumvention of representative democracy. "We the tax payers feel that a law to make this land a National Park," the petition read, "would never have passed Congress, that President Hoover knew this and so took unfair advantage of his position and made this a National Monument." [21]

The final use of the Antiquities Act in Grand Canyon came some thirty-seven years later when President Lyndon Baines Johnson proclaimed the Marble Canyon National Monument, adjacent and upriver from the Grand Canyon. True to course, the new monument was incorporated into Grand Canyon National Park in 1975. Some sixty-five years of Antiquities Act manipulation resulted in the park as it exists today.

One hundred miles north of the Grand Canyon, as the crow flies, lies another remarkable canyon through which flows the Virgin River. Zion National Park provides not only a parallel in the nature of its scenery, but in the method of its establishment. Like Grand Canyon National Park, all of the land within Zion was set aside under authority of the Antiquities Act. The first step was taken by William Howard Taft, when he proclaimed Mukuntuweap National Monument in 1909. At that time the sculpted valley was as obscure as the name, isolated and unknown. The second step occurred in 1918 when Woodrow Wilson enlarged the monument acreage five-fold (15,840 to 76,800 acres) and changed the name to Zion.

Assistant Director of the National Park Service Horace Albright, Utah Senator Reed Smoot, local people, and representatives of the Union Pacific Railroad all wanted a national park. The reasons most often cited were protection and development for tourism. A park was necessary, argued one government report, to give "protection, improvement and control that can only be obtained with a resident force of park employees." [22] Why such a force was unavailable under monument status went unexplained. The reason was money. Horace Albright made this clear in writing to Senator Smoot on the subject of Zion Canyon in 1917, noting that the appropriation bill asked for $5,000 for twenty-one monuments, thus "the amount that will be available for any one monument will be very small indeed." [23] If Senator Smoot had been wavering on the need for park status, Albright's news that the monument would receive probably about $238 for fiscal year 1918 surely convinced him! To a wider audience, Secretary of the Interior Franklin Lane reiterated the same message when he stated that Zion "is proposed as a national park, and as soon as this is accomplished certain extensive improvements should be made." [24] No explanation was given as to why monuments received meager appropriations and were ineligible for development.

Zion became a national park in 1919, but additions to the park would again involve the Antiquities Act. In 1930 Zion National Park Superintendent E. T. Scoyen became enamored with Kolob Canyon, adjacent to Zion and quite magnificent in scale and beautiful in coloring. He wrote Director Horace Albright proposing that Kolob be proclaimed a national monument. Scoyen rejected the idea of an addition to Zion National Park, stating that he could "see no reason why we should wait for opposition to develop before this bill is sent to Congress. A clever agitator can stir the people on these lands to open warfare on the subject, and do harm to both the Park and the people themselves in the end." Albright's response was to send Roger Toll, his trusted representative in the West, to report on the proposed Kolob Canyon National Monument. After a three-day horse pack trip in October 1932, Toll wrote his report extolling the beauty of the canyon and emphasizing that it was of "park quality." Toll recommended that Kolob should "be an addition to Zion and not as a separately administered area." However, the alert envoy did not suggest a national park addition. "For practical considerations it might be that the area would be first established as a national monument, with the expectation of eventually adding it to Zion by act of Congress." [25] Specifically, Toll and others wished to avoid a fight in Congress with the grazing interests. Often, the anticipation of opposition was enough reason to press for a national monument.

One question that Toll failed to address was whether Kolob Canyon qualified for monument status under the Antiquities Act. His report stressed scenic beauty and wilderness quality, with not one sentence devoted to scientific or historic importance. Clearly, for Toll the Antiquities Act was not a consideration when he submitted his report. Monument status was a convenient stepping stone, a "halfway house" on the road to what National Park Service Director Stephen Mather often called "parkhood."

In 1937 President Franklin Roosevelt proclaimed Kolob Canyon as the second Zion National Monument. This one had a longer life span than the first, existing until 1956, when it was made part of the park through an act of Congress. [26]

Not all monuments were the result of a desire to bypass Congress. Some resulted from the political manipulations of the Forest Service and the National Park Service: two federal agencies in competition to parcel out the unspoken-for mountain terrain of America. As Forest Service Chief Henry Graves confided to his diary in 1916: "There seems to be continuous trouble over the national parks." [27] The newly-established Park Service aggressively sought to carve new national parks from Forest Service lands, and sometimes the Antiquities Act was interjected into their departmental quarrels. There are other examples, but the case of Bryce Canyon National Park illustrates the point. President Theodore Roosevelt incorporated the spectacular U-shaped canyon of hundreds of eroded sandstone spires and minerals into Powell National Forest in 1908. In the years to follow, Forest Supervisor J. W. Humphrey publicized the beauty of the canyon, but when Park Service Director Stephen Mather viewed the "jewel-like little amphitheater" in 1919 there was no doubt that the Forest Service faced a formidable jurisdictional foe. [28]

With a certain air of innocence the Park Service recommended national monument status for the canyon, and Utah Senator Reed Smoot embraced the idea. In a 1922 meeting in Smoot's office, the senator, Utah Representative Donald Colton, the commissioner of the General Land Office, and representatives of the National Park Service and the Forest Service hammered out an understanding. They agreed to add 2,320 acres of land to Powell National Forest while simultaneously creating this acreage as Bryce Canyon National Monument, under the jurisdiction of the Forest Service. Secretary of the Interior Albert Fall supported this plan, writing Agricultural Secretary Henry Wallace that he would "cheerfully join in recommending such a course." [29] President Calvin Coolidge declared Bryce Canyon National Monument in June 1923. Nonetheless, Forest Service control was short-lived. The following year a bill creating Utah National Park passed (to be changed to Bryce Canyon National Park in 1928), and Forest Service control ended. [30] Impermanent national monuments well served the desires of Stephen Mather and Horace Albright to showcase southwest Utah's scenic beauty as part of the national park system.

Use of the Antiquities Act was not limited to the American West. The first national park in the East, Acadia National Park on the coast of Maine, underwent a familiar metamorphosis when park benefactor George B. Dorr took the idea to Washington. Dorr was advised that the legislators were unresponsive to park proposals and that he ought to "forget Congress and address himself instead to the President. . . ." [31] Woodrow Wilson did not disappoint him. Sieur de Monts National Monument was proclaimed in July 1916. By 1918 Director Stephen Mather reported that the monument "seems now well started on its way to national parkhood . . . where it rightfully belongs." [32] It was "elevated," to use Mather's verb, to Lafayette National Park in 1919, and the name designated Acadia in 1929.

In the Pacific Northwest, a similar bureaucratic evolution took place. Conservation interest in the Olympic Peninsula first resulted in President Grover Cleveland setting aside the 2,188,800 acre Olympic Forest Reserve in 1897. Protests from the logging industry prompted President William McKinley to withdraw some 721,860 acres from the reserve in 1901. With Roosevelt as president, conservationists pushed for a national park. Of particular concern was the survival of the Olympic or Roosevelt Elk herd, named in 1897 by the naturalist C. Hart Merriam for Theodore Roosevelt. [33] Whether Merriam's stratagem influenced Roosevelt is not certain, but we do know that Roosevelt was determined to increase federal protection. His 1909 proclamation, signed some forty-eight hours before Roosevelt left office, established the 610,560 acre Mount Olympus National Monument. This action represents the first "lame duck" monument. It would not be the last.

Again, Roosevelt surely stretched the meaning of the Antiquities Act to the limit. The Olympic monument was a place of natural beauty. Scientific, archeological, or historical values were either secondary or nonexistent. The primary purpose cited by the executive decree was to provide a refuge for Roosevelt elk but, as historian John Ise points out, "the monument was not closed to hunting or trapping until October 5, 1927, by President Coolidge." [34] One can only agree that "under any other interpretation of the Antiquities Act other than Roosevelt's own, the Mount Olympus National Monument would have remained a part of Olympic National Forest." [35]

The administrative history of the Olympic Mountains between the establishment of the monument and the creation of Olympic National Park in 1938 is complex, centered on mining hopes and lumbering realities, state concerns, political manipulations, and the conflicting conservation ideologies of the Park Service and the Forest Service. [36] From its establishment until 1933 the Forest Service administered the monument. With pressure from logging interests and Forest Service agreement, the monument was halved in acreage by a proclamation signed by President Woodrow Wilson. When the Park Service assumed jurisdiction of all the national monuments in 1933 the Washington office was besieged with inquiries as to what would be done with Mount Olympus National Monument. Replying to conservationist Irving Clark, Director Arno Cammerer discussed the Park Service's approach to the park versus monument question:

One of the main problems before us relating to the Mount Olympus area is whether or not it should be made a national park rather than retained as a national monument. If the area is superlative in every respect, is sufficiently significant, and is particularly usable as a place to visit, its status should be changed to that of a national park. If, on the other hand, it is an area that should be given special protection and carefully preserved from wide use, then its status should remain as at present. [37]

Clearly Cammerer's interpretation rested on his agency's recent treatment of monuments rather than the Antiquities Act. If Olympic was worthy of development, then park status was in order. However, if it was to be "carefully preserved from wide use" and essentially managed as a wilderness area, then monument status should continue.

As the Olympic debate developed it was evident that none of the interest groups favored continuation of the monument. Those who stood for development wished the land returned to the Forest Service, whereas those who fought for preservation demanded that the monument be replaced by a national park. A few mavericks, such as C. Parker Paul of the Dartmouth Outing Club, favored retention of the monument to guarantee preservation of "this wilderness sanctuary . . . just as nature left it." [38]

Although Paul expressed the views of a miniscule minority, his misunderstanding of the nature of national monuments certainly represented the majority. Few persons understood the connection of monuments with the Antiquities Act. Monuments, as often defined by the National Park Service, were undeveloped parks. Monuments were consistently subject to starvation budgets which precluded development. Needless to say, park advocates won out, and in 1938 Olympic National Park replaced the old monument: a monument that had never been much more than a holding action until a satisfactory settlement could be reached.

The term "holding action" is most appropriate in describing national monuments in the 1920s and 1930s. The duration of national monuments was often short, and their definition was hazy at best, and nondescript at worst. Official National Park Service policy called for the "upgrading" of national monuments to national park status. One might legitimately ask, "What was the difference?" The question could be answered in a variety of ways?none satisfactory?but certainly national parks were well funded, and national monuments were not. This had nothing to do with congressional law, but rather with bureaucratic preference and public popularity. Under the leadership of Stephen Mather and Horace Albright the national parks were considered the "crown jewels" of the system, thus entitling them to generous appropriations. National monuments, on the other hand, were expected to survive with little, and often no, appropriation. Many were simply a convenient way to accomplish immediate conservation goals.

Such a disparity was not lost on Frank Pinkley, the supervisor of fourteen southwestern national monuments in the 1920s and 1930s. Continually he railed against the second-class status of the monuments, complaining that the monuments were nothing more than a "kindergarten for baby or immature national parks," and that the Antiquities Act was being used improperly as a "back door entry" to park status. [39] However, this outspoken iconoclast was ignored, for his views simply did not square with the policy as outlined by Jenks Cameron in a semiofficial history of the National Park Service written in 1922. Cameron, struggling to explain the difference between parks and monuments, ventured that "the object of a park is the development of the area . . .," while "it might be said that a monument is park raw material, because many of the existing monuments, in all probability, will receive park status when their development as parks is practicable." [40] The National Park Service was dedicated to expansion by whatever means possible. The "back door" method of park establishment had become a valuable tool, and one which the Park Service would not willingly relinquish.

Surprisingly, what was so disturbing to Pinkley raised little protest from a United States Congress focused on the deepening economic depression. When Herbert Hoover proclaimed five "lame duck" monuments (Grand Canyon, White Sands, Death Valley, Saguaro, and Black Canyon of the Gunnison) there was hardly a murmur of congressional concern. One rather partisan political pundit, however, did not miss an opportunity with the proclamation of Death Valley National Monument in writing that "those who delight in symbolism may regard such a monument as very fitting and one of the concrete achievements of an outgoing depression President." [41]

The incoming president experienced greater popular and congressional support of his actions. Yet Franklin Delano Roosevelt's use of the Antiquities Act created great controversy and brought the matter before a critical Congress. The issue was the expansion of Grand Teton National Park in northwestern Wyoming. Within the limitations of this essay, there is not space to review entirely this complicated issue. [42] One need only say that the first park, established in 1929, included only the mountain range, leaving the broad flat lands of northern Jackson Hole ripe for development. To forestall such a situation John D. Rockefeller, Jr., with National Park Service cooperation, undertook a land purchase program with the intention of adding the undeveloped land to the national park. When this secret plan was made public it faced strong, determined local and state opposition. Throughout the 1930s various attempts to incorporate Forest Service and Rockefeller-owned land into Grand Teton National Park failed.

It was evident to park expansionists that accomplishing their purpose through congressional action was impossible. Perhaps in their minds was Arizona Senator Henry Ashurst's statement that in regard to the park, "the other States are not going to put over on Wyoming something that her two Senators do not want." [43] Frustrated, National Park Service Director Arthur Demaray informed Secretary of the Interior Harold Ickes in 1940 that in regard to Jackson Hole "the establishment of the area as a national monument at the appropriate time appears to be the only course available." [44]

The fact that Ickes chose not to take action for some three years gives evidence that such a course would be controversial. Finally, a letter in late 1942 from Rockefeller to Ickes, in which the millionaire hinted at selling his Jackson Hole land holdings, spurred Ickes to approach President Roosevelt. In his meeting with Roosevelt, the feisty interior secretary suggested it was time to use the Antiquities Act, but warned the president that proclamation of a monument could yield vigorous protest. Undaunted, Roosevelt signed Executive Order 2578 on 15 March 1943, establishing Jackson Hole National Monument. [45]

As anticipated, strong opposition was voiced to such a furtive use of the act. Wyoming's senators and congressman generally had favored state and local control of Jackson Hole, opposing the expansionist plans of the National Park Service. Now state protest could be framed in the broader question of the proper separation of executive and congressional power. Senator Edward Robinson called the monument proclamation a circumvention of the democratic process, and "a foul, sneaking Pearl Harbor blow." Representative Frank Barrett, an indefatigable foe of the National Park Service, condemned the action as "contrary to every principle of freedom and democracy." "Let them bring the matter before Congress and let the people be heard on it," exclaimed Barrett. "Are they the masters of the people? Are they above the law?" For Barrett, as well as many others both in and out of Congress, Roosevelt's use of the Antiquities Act was "a usurpation of the power and prerogatives of Congress." [46]

Although the National Park Service was able to marshal some evidence that Jackson Hole National Monument was both historically and scientifically unique within the loose wording of the Antiquities Act, few could disagree with Congressman Barrett's contention that the "monument is nothing more than an addition to Teton National Park," and that Congress never "intended that the law should be used for such a purpose as this." [47]

Barrett's comments were made in support of his bill (H.R. 2241) to abolish the monument. In spite of Roosevelt's appeal to Speaker of the House Sam Rayburn to kill the bill, it passed the House by 178 to 107, with 142 not voting. [48] The Senate passed the bill by voice vote. Roosevelt vetoed the bill?allowing the monument to stand?but nevertheless the legislators had sent the president a message: the arbitrary use of the Antiquities Act to accomplish ends unattainable through Congress must stop.

Although Congress could not kill Jackson Hole National Monument, it could cripple it through lack of appropriations. From 1943 through 1946, Wyoming Senator Joseph O'Mahoney successfully attached amendments to the Interior Department Appropriation Acts forbidding any expenditure for the new monument. [49] This was limiting, certainly forestalling any planning or development. Perhaps more threatening was litigation by the state of Wyoming challenging the constitutionality of Roosevelt's proclamation. The case of State of Wyoming v. Franke sought to test whether Roosevelt had exceeded his powers granted under the Antiquities Act. This litigation ended rather indecisively when Judge T. Blake Kennedy dismissed the case, stating that redress for the state of Wyoming could be found in congressional, rather than judicial action.

Congressional action continued until 1947. It was augmented by a publicity campaign that included an illegal cattle drive across the monument led by the aging actor, Wallace Beery (who, it was rumored, had to have the assistance of a stepladder to mount his horse). In spite of such varied efforts to abolish the monument, it survived, finally to be incorporated into an enlarged Grand Teton National Park in 1950. The aim of Rockefeller, the National Park Service, and conservation groups had been accomplished, but clearly in defiance of the normal democratic process. In the 1950 act, however, significant concessions were made to park opponents, one being an article forbidding the use of the Antiquities Act in Wyoming to create national monuments?without the consent of Congress. [50]

Although the Antiquities Act remained on the books, since 1950 presidents have been more cautious in creating national monuments. Generally, the chief executive has consulted the House Interior and Insular Affairs Committee prior to issuing the proclamation. Unsanctioned monuments could go unfunded by Congress. Thus, the need for cooperation in achieving conservation goals combined with the "power of the purse" has meant a general reluctance to use the full power of the Antiquities Act in the manner of either Roosevelt. [51]

One is quick to add, however, that the Antiquities Act was not discarded. It remained (and remains) the law, and Presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson, and Carter have all proclaimed monuments, usually with the prior approval of Congress, but sometimes in defiance of it.

The establishment of the Chesapeake and Ohio Canal National Historic Park provides us the latter case, in a confrontation second only to Jackson Hole. The canal was surely historic, having been proposed by George Washington in the 1780s. President John Quincy Adams turned the first spadeful of dirt in 1828, and by 1854 the 185 mile canal had reached Cumberland, Maryland. Although the canal operated until 1924, almost from the beginning the railroad rendered the canal obsolete and profitless. Abandoned, the Baltimore and Ohio Railroad relinquished the right-of-way to the federal government in 1939, using the proceeds to repay a federal loan. [52]

Just what to do with the canal was debated, but the most attractive proposal was a scenic highway utilizing the old canal route. In the early 1950s the National Park Service consented to that use, and the Washington Post published an editorial praising the plan. All parties seemed in agreement, but they had not foreseen the eloquent opposition of Justice of the Supreme Court William O. Douglas, a man who was, as one author put it, "never noticeably restrained by judicial decorum when expressing himself on conservation matters. . . ." Douglas argued that the canal offered "a refuge, a place of retreat, a long stretch of quiet and peace at the Capitol's back door." Then he challenged Post reporters to a 185 mile canal walk to prove it. The strategy paid off; the hike was widely publicized and an estimated fifty thousand supporters greeted the Justice and his hiking colleagues at their triumphant arrival in Washington. In the face of such public pressure the agencies retreated and the highway proposal died. [53]

What replaced the highway proposal was a bill to preserve and restore the canal as a historic park. It moved smoothly through the Senate but ran afoul of the House Committee on Interior and Insular Affairs, where it was continually lost in the committee deck, adroitly shuffled by canal opponent Representative Gracie Pfost of Idaho. As Assistant Secretary of the Interior Fred Seaton watched the continual floundering of the bill. He sought a remedy. With Eisenhower's presidency drawing to a close, Seaton suggested the use of the Antiquities Act. Eisenhower obliged, and on 20 January 1961, at 10:36 A.M., literally within hours of Kennedy's inauguration, Ike signed the proclamation creating the C & 0 Canal National Historic Monument. [54]

Breaching the impasse through executive fiat incensed members of the House, particularly Chairman of the Interior and Insular Affairs Committee Wayne Aspinall. The Colorado congressman made his displeasure known through the power of the purse, denying funding for the C & O Canal for nine years. Furthermore, Aspinall refused hearings on a canal park bill, pressing home the point that the executive branch must not make land use policy alone. Agreement was finally reached with Interior Secretary Stuart Udall that the Antiquities Act would only be used in clear emergencies. [55]

Udall, however, could not resist temptation. When the Canyonlands National Park bill bogged down with rather petty objections, the secretary of the interior advised Senator Clinton Anderson of New Mexico that President Kennedy ought to simply proclaim the entire area a national monument, thereby settling what Udall considered "an essentially stupid argument over boundaries" [56] Kennedy did not follow his secretary's suggestion. However, Udall's romance with the Antiquities Act did not end with Kennedy. His most controversial use of the act began some six months before Lyndon Johnson would leave office. At that time, Johnson requested his cabinet to prepare "wish lists" that could be accomplished through executive action. Secretary Udall saw a rare opportunity to add substantially to the National Park System through use of the Antiquities Act. Marshalling his staff, the secretary put together seventeen national monument proposals; areas which he believed would be difficult, if not impossible, to push through Congress. When presented to Johnson in December 1968, the president and his staff were quick to recognize the political ramifications. Johnson ordered Udall to sound out congressional leaders and "touch all bases on the hill." Udall did as ordered, but failed to touch a crucial base, that of Wayne Aspinall. Aspinall, a defender of economic development but even more sensitive to circumvention of the authority of Congress, soon heard of the plan, and vehemently voiced his objection. What followed was a confrontation which almost resulted in the dismissal of Udall two days before Johnson left office. [57] When the dust settled, the outgoing president signed four executive orders, enlarging three existing monuments and creating Marble Canyon National Monument.

The dilemma of Johnson during those last days in office sheds light on the particular appeal of the Antiquities Act. Although Johnson had a certain respect, perhaps reverence, for Congress (having spent most of his political career on the "Hill"), he had great difficulty denying himself use of the Antiquities Act. Frustrated by a reluctant legislative body and dismayed by an unpopular war, Johnson was eager to leave a legacy of some tangible accomplishments. The Antiquities Act offered the power to accomplish significant conservation measures; measures which he knew would not likely be rescinded by Congress after he left office. Johnson was proud of his conservation record, and his use of the Antiquities Act was the final capstone in a record which he hoped would be recognized:

On the elevator, as we descended to the ground floor of the Executive Mansion, I signed the statement to accompany the Executive actions enlarging the national parks system to 28.5 million acres. I noted with a certain amount of satisfaction that it had totaled 24.5 million acres when I took office. We had added four million acres in just five years. [58]

Some of the monument proclamations which Johnson refused to sign concerned Alaska, perhaps the focal point of land use debates in the past twenty-five years. It was in Alaska that a more recent president?Jimmy Carter?resorted to an expansive use of the Antiquities Act. In 1978, when Congress failed to pass an Alaskan lands bill, Carter was determined not to leave land unprotected. Thus, he signed executive orders creating some fifty-six million acres of national monuments. As mentioned earlier, it was a bold stroke, and one which revealed that the Antiquities Act could still be used in a meaningful way. Living Wilderness called the move "the strongest and most daring conservation action by any president in American history." [59] Such a statement was unwarranted, but nevertheless, Carter did signal a reticent Congress that the government would not, as Secretary of the Interior Cecil Andrus put it, allow Alaska to "become a private preserve for a handful of rape, ruin, and run developers." In December 1980, Carter signed the Alaska Lands Act, terminating the monuments and ending a nine year struggle. [60]

The Alaska story simply highlights a certain reluctance, if not down right stubbornness, on the part of Congress to establish national parks. William C. Everhart put it directly when he stated that: "National parks can be created only by an act of Congress, and they have been intermittently set aside, one by one, most after interminable deliberation." [61] The Antiquities Act offered a way to both avoid and resolve such deliberation. In explaining the frequent delays in establishing parks, historian H. Duane Hampton noted that Congress has historically lacked interest and exhibited "a considerable measure of apathy." Two examples illustrate his point. "No substantial opposition surfaced when proponents introduced the first bill for Crater Lake National Park," explained Hampton, "but fourteen subsequent bills spread over sixteen years were required before approval of legislation in 1902." Again, with regard to Mesa Verde National Park, no one opposed the idea yet proponents petitioned Congress from 1891 through 1906 before they were successful. [62] One is tempted to speculate that had the Antiquities Act existed during these two efforts, both Crater Lake and Mesa Verde would have gone through the "monuments-to-parks" process, thus bypassing a disinterested Congress.

Certainly American national parks are egalitarian in purpose. From the beginning of Park Service administration Stephen Mather and Horace Albright embarked on an ambitious and aggressive campaign to popularize the parks. One objective was to win a constituency eager to support the continuance and expansion of the system. Statistically the goal was realized, particularly with the remarkable rise in visitation since World War II. However, it is questionable whether the people were as eager to support setting aside scenic land as new national parks as they were to visit the already-established parks. Historian Alfred Runte has argued that the American public was less than enthusiastic in establishing national parks. In a much-discussed thesis, Runte argues that before Congress would act favorably, potential parks had to be proven "worthless" in the sense of economic gain through mining, farming, grazing, and logging. [63] Given such a criteria, it is not surprising that the National Park Service and conservationists found the Antiquities Act a useful, if not crucial, tool, for it conveniently circumvented such a debate.

Between 1906 and 1978, twelve presidents used their authority under the act to establish ninety-nine monuments. The justification of thirty-eight of the monuments was primarily historic or prehistoric, while sixty-one were identified as "objects of . . . scientific interest." [64] Surely almost all of these ninety-nine monuments could claim to be objects of historic, prehistoric, or scientific interest. After all, a creative person or agency could make a case for almost any patch of land in America. The more central question is whether the monument was actually valued for these qualities, or whether its founders simply saw monument status as a transient phase, not unlike the nineteenth-century land boomer's view of Indian reservations. How many Park Service officials and ardent conservationists have viewed the Antiquities Act with the simplicity and directness of Edgar Hewett and Charles Lummis? The answer is very few. A twentieth-century scenario emerges in which those agencies committed to planning, conservation, and preservation used the Antiquities Act to skirt the normal steps of the legislative process.

One should temper such judgments with the observation that Congress did not always fail when it came to park-making. It would be easy enough to marshal a sizable list of parks which resulted from congressional action. However, the idea that the democratic process moved with perfect purpose toward the creation of national parks and nature sanctuaries simply was not the case. National parks, although admittedly an outgrowth of the national interest, often were not established as a result of an outpouring of popular sentiment. Rather, they were the offspring of relatively small pockets of private individuals and public officials intent on manipulating, and occasionally avoiding, the congressional process. Surely national parks have become the pride of the American people, and indeed, as Wallace Stegner put it, "the best thing we ever did. . . ." Congress can take some of the credit, but when it faltered the Antiquities Act provided the means to expand the system and preserve valuable scientific, historic, and scenic resources. It was, as former National Park Service Director George B. Hartzog, Jr. recently wrote, "an old and reliable authority." [65]

Robert W. Righter is associate professor of history at the University of Texas, El Paso.




TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
Something I failed to mention about the F&S article:

My research on this topic shows there are CURRENTLY 126 monuments. IOW, his number doesn't include those that were designated by various presidents but were later changed to national parks -- the fact he doesn't mention.

TONY MANDILE
48e63dfa482a34a9.jpg

How To Hunt Coues Deer
 
Tony, the entire F&S article is specifically about the Antiquities Act and the controversy of one President being able to make a designation with potentially far-reaching effects; not the merits and levels of protection over a period of time.

How many of those National Parks were designated via Presidential Proclamation under the Antiquities Act? None. The Bears Ears conversation can't possibly be centered on some future, not-even-yet-theoretical, never-proposed fear of a National Park that nobody has even claimed they want. That idea is so far into left field, the conversation loses all ability to be fact-based and focused.

It takes an Act of Congress to declare a National Park. It always has and it always will.

One designation does not necessarily beget, deny, nor preclude the other. They are separate decisions, often discussed generations apart, and should be treated as such.

Grizzly
 
Come on Grizzly!
Don't let the facts get in the way of some good internet fear mongering.

Guys like Cantkill eat this stuff up.
 
>>How many of those National Parks were designated via >>Presidential Proclamation under the Antiquities Act?


Regardless of how monuments get turned into parks, the change is always a possibility even if it takes an act of Congress. Hell, four or eight years from now if the Dems take over everything, they just might want to stick it to Utah's pols by doing just that with Bear Ears. Can you guarantee that won't happen then or in the future?

My ##### with the F&S article is his OMISSION of even mentioning that it has happened and still does, sometimes in less than two decades.

Here's a short list of some of the more major conversions:

Acadia NP -It first attained federal status when President Woodrow Wilson established it as Sieur de Monts National Monument on July 8, 1916, administered by the National Park Service. On February 26, 1919, it became a national park, with the name Lafayette National Park

Arches NP - In April 1929, shortly after his inauguration, President Herbert Hoover signed a presidential proclamation creating Arches National Monument, consisting of two comparatively small, disconnected sections. In 1971, President Richard Nixon signed legislation enacted by Congress changing its status to a National Park.

Badlands NP - Authorized as Badlands National Monument on March 4, 1929, it was not established until January 25, 1939. It was redesignated a national park on November 10, 1978.

Black Canyon of the Gunnison NP- The Black Canyon of the Gunnison was established as a U.S. National Monument on March 2, 1933. It became a National Park on October 21, 1999.

Bryce Canyon NP - The area around Bryce Canyon became a National Monument in 1923 and was designated as a National Park in 1928.

Capitol Reef NP - Capitol Reef National Park was initially designated a National Monument on August 2, 1937 by President Franklin D. Roosevelt. The park was established in 1971.

Carsbab Caverns NP - President Calvin Coolidge signed a proclamation establishing Carlsbad Cave National Monument October 25, 1923. An act of the United States Congress in 1930 established Carlsbad Caverns National Park.

Channel Islands NP - It was designated a U.S. National Monument on April 26, 1938, and a National Biosphere Reserve in 1976. It was promoted to a National Park on March 5, 1980.

Congaree NP - On October 18, 1976 legislation was passed to create Congaree Swamp National Monument. Congress redesignated the monument Congaree National Park on November 10, 2003.

Cuyahoga Valley NP - It was established in 1974 as the Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation Area and was designated as a national park in 2000.

Death Valley NP - President Herbert Hoover proclaimed a national monument in and around Death Valley on February 11, 1933. On October 31, 1994, the monument was expanded by 1.3 million acres and re-designated as a national park.

Gates of the Artic NP - On December 1, 1978 President Jimmy Carter used the Antiquities Act to proclaim much of the proposed new Alaskan parklands as national monuments, including Gates of the Arctic National Monument. In 1980 the monument became Gates of the Arctic National Park.

Glacier Bay NP - President Calvin Coolidge proclaimed the area around Glacier Bay a national monument under the Antiquities Act on February 25, 1925. After expansion by Jimmy Carter in 1978, it became Glacier Bay National Park on December 2, 1980.

Grand Canyon NP - Theodore Roosevelt created the Grand Canyon Game Preserve by proclamation on 28 November 1906 and Grand Canyon National Monument in 1908. The Grand Canyon National Park Act was finally signed by President Woodrow Wilson in 1919. In 1975, the former Marble Canyon National Monument, which followed the Colorado River northeast from the Grand Canyon to Lee's Ferry, was made part of Grand Canyon National Park.

Grand Teton NP - President Calvin Coolidge signed the executive order establishing the 96,000-acre Grand Teton National Park on February 26, 1929. President Franklin Roosevelt used the Antiquities Act to establish the 221,000-acre Jackson Hole National Monument in 1943. The monument was abolished in 1950 and added to Grand Teton National Park.

Great Basin NP - President Warren G. Harding created Lehman Caves National Monument by presidential proclamation on January 24, 1922. It was designated Great Basin National Park.

Great Sand Dunes NP - Originally created as Great Sand Dunes National Monument on March 17, 1932, Great Sand Dunes National Park and Preserve was established by an act of the United States Congress on September 13, 2004.

Joshua Tree NP - Declared a U.S. National Park in 1994, it had previously been designated a U.S. National Monument in 1936.

Katmai NP - The area was first designated a national monument in 1918. President Herbert Hoover issued a proclamation expanding the monument under the Antiquities Act to 2,697,590 acres, more than doubling it in size and creating the largest single Park Service unit. President Jimmy Carter used his authority under the Antiquities Act to expand Katmai by 1,370,000 acres on December 1, 1978. The park and preserve covers 4,093,077 acres, being roughly the size of Wales. Most of this is a designated wilderness area in the national park where all hunting is banned, including over 3,922,000 acres. It became a national park in 1980.

Kenai Fjords NP - Kenai Fjords National Monument was initially designated by President Jimmy Carter on December 1, 1978, using the Antiquities Act. It became a national park in 1980.

Kobuk Valley NP- Kobuk Valley National Park was first declared a national monument by President Jimmy Carter on December 1, 1978 using his authority under the Antiquities Act. It became a national park in 1980.

Lake Clark NP - Lake Clark National Park and Preserve was first declared a national monument by President Jimmy Carter on December 1, 1978 using his authority under the Antiquities Act. It became

a national park in 1980. Of the total area, about 2,637,000 acres lie in the park and 1,400,000 acres in the preserve. While both sport and subsistence hunting are permitted in the national preserve lands, only subsistence hunting by local residents is permitted within the national park.

Lassen NP - Lassen Peak and Cinder Cone were declared as U.S. National Monuments in May 1907 by President Theodore Roosevelt. Lassen Peak, Cinder Cone and the area surrounding were declared a National Park on August 9, 1916.
 
>Hell, four or eight
>years from now if the
>Dems take over everything, they
>just might want to stick
>it to Utah's pols by
>doing just that (make it a National Park) with Bear
>Ears.

My point exactly. Whether or not the Bears Ears was designated as a National Monument has no bearing on a future vote by Congress to make it a National Park, which is why a National Park vote should not be part of this discussion.

Obama could have left it alone and it still could have been made into a National Park if it was the will of a future Democratic Congress. But at least the area is protected in the interim from a Republican-controlled Congress that has shown a proclivity and desire to transfer public lands to the states or issue ill-conceived extraction permits.

I see this designation as a safety net with much greater potential positive benefits than the fear of the negatives. Especially when those negatives aren't affected by the Monument designation anyway.

It's always pleasant talking to you, Tony. Have a great day.

Grizzly
 
>On the Monument CAT or the
>whole fiasco?
>
>
>
>
>"If the DWR was just doing
>its job, and
>wildlife and hunting were the actual
>focus,
>none of this process would even
>matter.
>But that is not the focus
>or the goal in any
>
>of this. The current DWR regime,
>and
>SFW were born out of wildlife
>declines,
>and are currently operated and funded
>
>under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
>
>tags would not even be worth
>anything if
>the focus was where it was
>supposed to
>be, and wildlife and tags were
>plentiful.
>But under the current business model,
>
>that is how the money and
>power is
>generated. It is generated through the
>
>rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
>resource. A resource that is supposed
>to
>be being beneficially managed for the
>
>masses that own that resource, ie.
>US.
>The problem is obvious, hedging is
>not a
>long term sustainable strategy, and
>others have to lose, for some
>to win. In
>this case it is us, the
>many, and our
>resources, that are being forced to
>lose,
>because there is a minority who's
>power
>and money is derived from our
>loses."
>
>LONETREE 3/15/16

Let's Hear whatever you've got to say ww?










[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
Nobody cares what this old boy has to say.

Facts and logic are overpowered by chit like "Agenda 21" "Mexico paying for the wall" "Prosecuting Clinton" "Jade Helm"
"Ebola" and so on.

How do you argue with that chit CAT?






"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
>Nobody cares what this old boy
>has to say.
>
>Facts and logic are overpowered by
>chit like "Agenda 21"
>"Mexico paying for the wall"
> "Prosecuting Clinton" "Jade
>Helm"
>"Ebola" and so on.
>
>How do you argue with that
>chit CAT?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"If the DWR was just doing
>its job, and
>wildlife and hunting were the actual
>focus,
>none of this process would even
>matter.
>But that is not the focus
>or the goal in any
>
>of this. The current DWR regime,
>and
>SFW were born out of wildlife
>declines,
>and are currently operated and funded
>
>under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
>
>tags would not even be worth
>anything if
>the focus was where it was
>supposed to
>be, and wildlife and tags were
>plentiful.
>But under the current business model,
>
>that is how the money and
>power is
>generated. It is generated through the
>
>rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
>resource. A resource that is supposed
>to
>be being beneficially managed for the
>
>masses that own that resource, ie.
>US.
>The problem is obvious, hedging is
>not a
>long term sustainable strategy, and
>others have to lose, for some
>to win. In
>this case it is us, the
>many, and our
>resources, that are being forced to
>lose,
>because there is a minority who's
>power
>and money is derived from our
>loses."
>
>LONETREE 3/15/16

Like I've Tried telling everybody for years wiley!

We're outnumbered by them 'other types" & have been for quite some time now!

I Honestly Think the Meetings are Nothing more than a 'Show' to make everything look Legit & Your Favorite President/Feds/State are gonna do as they F'N Please & Our Word means Nothing!












[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
No matter what anybody says, IT still looks like the first step on a slippery slope.IMO

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Exactly Gator, multiple slippery slopes.

We've got the Feds in preservation mode, the local politicians in liquidation mode and their respective puppet masters spreading half truths and in some cases just outright bullcrap. Ultimately the result for sportsmen will be the same.

Sportsmen are stuck in the middle and unfortunately find it easier to side with spin from their partisan slant rather than examine a specific issue, apply a little critical thinking, and actually think for themselves.

Case in point. This years Governors race.
I can't tell you how many sportsmen voted for Herbert because his opponent was a Democrat. No other reason.

The blatant "Available Jones" as in Governor for sale to the highest bidder scandal didn't matter, the admission that he will transfer public lands, he signed a bill to remove almost 2800 miles of Constitutionally guaranteed access to the states waterways, he will piss away 14 million dollars in a losing lawsuit to transfer lands. Has turned the rule making process for wildlife in Utah in to a SFW Board Meeting from Division Leadership on down to RAC members.
And sportsmen re-elect this crook because he ain't a Democrat?!?!

Politicians know this, they know sportsmen would rather be caught in elk camp by their buddies with a Hillary Clinton blow up doll than be accused of voting blue.

As long as we continue to cut our own throats with lack of forward and critical thinking on all things Wildlife, we will continue to be our own worst enemies.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
Well ww!

What you're saying is True!

Well Almost!

I Didn't Vote for the Republican!

But I Agree with You!

Lots of TARDS did just because He is an "R"!

And Because of that people like NeMont Hates All TARDS!

And ww!

I'm Thinking about Starting My Own Organization!

It'll be Called BFW!

You In ww?










[font color="blue"]It Was them Damn Lake Trout that took them Elk
out!:D[/font]
 
You bet your CAT ass I am.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 

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