Scoring Question

grizzly · Aug 6, 2017

Got a question for the scoring experts out there...

Imagine a situation where a guy shot a buck that would make B&C but it has a kicker that keeps the buck out of the book as a net typical. It seems obvious that if the hunter took a hammer and broke off the kicker that B&C would still not allow that buck to be entered.

Similarly, if right before a hunter was to shoot a deer it broke a main beam, that B&C would not allow that tine to be reattached and measured towards the score.

My question is that since B&C presumably won't take an animal that has been deliberately altered, and won't count the alterations that happened naturally prior to shooting the animal, how would B&C handle a broken tine that either happened naturally after the shot (say the deer rolled down a mountain and broke off the offending kicker) or happened accidentally after the harvest (say the hunter fell while the deer was on his back and the kicker broke making the buck reach book as a net typical). Would B&C then accept the deer?

Would it matter if the change in antler configuration was deliberate or accidental, positively or negatively affected net score, or happened pre or post-mortem?

I'm not asking the ethics of the question of whether a guy should break off antler just to reach the book (it seems ludicrous and disrespectful to the animal to me), I'm just wondering how B&C would handle it. Thx.

Grizzly

BOHNTR · Aug 7, 2017

Here's the B&C policy addressing your questions:

"Trophies that have been tampered with to gain an advantage obviously are not eligible for entry into the records books. Examples of trophy tampering include the deliberate removal of abnormal points from typical racks to increase a trophy?s score and/or the addition of antler or horn material. If any points are deliberately removed from antlers of any trophy by breaking or sawing them off, that trophy is not eligible for entry in the Awards Programs and/or records books. Deliberate modification of horns by adding to horn length or artificially increasing circumference measurements is also grounds for disqualification of a trophy'.

"Trophies that have been damaged and not repaired may be brought to the attention of the Records Committee by Measurers for consideration for inclusion in the Club's Awards Programs and records books. If the Committee, or its appointed representatives, such as B&C records department staff or a Judges Panel, agrees that the broken parts belong to the trophy and can be repositioned in their original configuration to enable an accurate measurement, the damaged trophy material can be included in the measurements and subsequently repaired. Submission of trophies with verifiable and damaged parts for examination by the Records Committee or a Judges Panel shall be at the expense of the owner".

BOHNTR )))---------->

fullthrottle · Aug 7, 2017

I've said it many times. Net score is a crock, big is big and bone is bone. Guess none of this really matters to me, never will enter any of my animals in the book. Plus a giant typical with a sweet hook kicker is a nice bonus in my eyes.

bonecollector777 · Aug 7, 2017

I think really it boils down to if you really wanted the score that bad to start breaking stuff off of your animal. I know a lot of guys including myself to some degree that love score but would never break something off. My buddy shot an elk with his bow that is number three pope and young typical (number two when he killed it) and it was a 6x7 the 7th point being 4 inches. He missed the world record by 2 inches and could have broke that off and had it. He never even thought about it. It's all gonna come down to how desperate someone wants the score. Only the hunter will know if it is natural and probably would be able to sneak it past the scorer in most cases but I think if someone is that desperate to take a hammer to their animal they shouldn't be hunting anyway. I'd imagine as long is it truly happened naturally whether after the shot or not there shouldn't be a problem.

jm77 · Aug 7, 2017

>I think really it boils down
>to if you really wanted
>the score that bad to
>start breaking stuff off of
>your animal. I know a
>lot of guys including myself
>to some degree that love
>score but would never break
>something off. My buddy shot
>an elk with his bow
>that is number three pope
>and young typical (number two
>when he killed it) and
>it was a 6x7 the
>7th point being 4 inches.
>He missed the world record
>by 2 inches and could
>have broke that off and
>had it. He never even
>thought about it. It's all
>gonna come down to how
>desperate someone wants the score.
>Only the hunter will know
>if it is natural and
>probably would be able to
>sneak it past the scorer
>in most cases but I
>think if someone is that
>desperate to take a hammer
>to their animal they shouldn't
>be hunting anyway. I'd imagine
>as long is it truly
>happened naturally whether after the
>shot or not there shouldn't
>be a problem.

Just curious 777, was the tine that made your friend's bull a 7 in line on the main beam or nontypical?

If it was in line, it made no difference on score. NT it would count against.

BOHNTR · Aug 7, 2017

LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-17 AT 03:25PM (MST)[p]>>I think really it boils down
>>to if you really wanted
>>the score that bad to
>>start breaking stuff off of
>>your animal. I know a
>>lot of guys including myself
>>to some degree that love
>>score but would never break
>>something off. My buddy shot
>>an elk with his bow
>>that is number three pope
>>and young typical (number two
>>when he killed it) and
>>it was a 6x7 the
>>7th point being 4 inches.
>>He missed the world record
>>by 2 inches and could
>>have broke that off and
>>had it. He never even
>>thought about it. It's all
>>gonna come down to how
>>desperate someone wants the score.
>>Only the hunter will know
>>if it is natural and
>>probably would be able to
>>sneak it past the scorer
>>in most cases but I
>>think if someone is that
>>desperate to take a hammer
>>to their animal they shouldn't
>>be hunting anyway. I'd imagine
>>as long is it truly
>>happened naturally whether after the
>>shot or not there shouldn't
>>be a problem.
>
>Just curious 777, was the tine
>that made your friend's bull
>a 7 in line on
>the main beam or nontypical?
>
>
>If it was in line, it
>made no difference on score.
>NT it would count against.
>

Not if it's a 'non-symmetry' point.

BOHNTR )))---------->

grizzly · Aug 7, 2017

BOHNTR, thanks for the great info. I had no idea they would have a panel consider a broken-off point and allow it to be reattached. Very interesting.

Grizzly

skyhawk · Aug 7, 2017

The fact that breaking off a point can actually help a score goes to show you just how messed up b&c's scoring system actually is. Net scores mean nothing in my eyes.

elkassassin · Aug 7, 2017

Well grizzly!

You could do what some were doing on Management Hunts for Elk in LE Units a few Years ago!

Some Cheat!

I Hope they Feel Good about theirselves!

I'll Keep Huntin PISSCUTTERS!

You Don't Have to Cheat!

And You Ain't gotta worry about gettin in the Book!

Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

jm77 · Aug 7, 2017

>>Just curious 777, was the tine
>>that made your friend's bull
>>a 7 in line on
>>the main beam or nontypical?
>>
>>
>>If it was in line, it
>>made no difference on score.
>>NT it would count against.
>>
>
>Not if it's a 'non-symmetry' point.
>
>
>BOHNTR )))---------->

If it was a G-6 it counts in the score on that antler and is deducted out in the "Difference" column, like it was never there. If the bull broke it off before your friend killed him, the score would be the same.

BOHNTR · Aug 7, 2017

>
>If it was a G-6 it
>counts in the score on
>that antler and is deducted
>out in the "Difference" column,
>like it was never there.
>If the bull broke it
>off before your friend killed
>him, the score would be
>the same.

Not always true. There is a chance that the typical point was unmatched and fell directly after G4.......thus it would be classified as an abnormal point and therefore, a deduction. Just guessing that may have been the issue.

"There is a very specialized situation that occurs when a point appears between the fourth, or "royal" point, and what would be the fifth point in the usual pattern. If BOTH antlers have that point occurring on the main beams, they would be treated as normal points; however, if it is present only on ONE antler, it is an abnormal point. Such a point upsets the normal symmetry of the antlers, so this situation is one of the few in which a point will be classified as normal if it has a counterpart on the other main beam, but is considered abnormal if there is no corresponding point on the other beam (Pope and Young Manual, 2017, pg. 89)."

BOHNTR )))---------->

jm77 · Aug 7, 2017

LAST EDITED ON Aug-07-17 AT 08:55PM (MST)[p]>>
>>If it was a G-6 it
>>counts in the score on
>>that antler and is deducted
>>out in the "Difference" column,
>>like it was never there.
>>If the bull broke it
>>off before your friend killed
>>him, the score would be
>>the same.
>
>Not always true. There is
>a chance that the typical
>point was unmatched and fell
>directly after G4.......thus it would
>be classified as an abnormal
>point and therefore, a deduction.
> Just guessing that may
>have been the issue.
>
>"There is a very specialized situation
>that occurs when a point
>appears between the fourth, or
>"royal" point, and what would
>be the fifth point in
>the usual pattern. If
>BOTH antlers have that point
>occurring on the main beams,
>they would be treated as
>normal points; however, if it
>is present only on ONE
>antler, it is an abnormal
>point. Such a point
>upsets the normal symmetry of
>the antlers, so this situation
>is one of the few
>in which a point will
>be classified as normal if
>it has a counterpart on
>the other main beam, but
>is considered abnormal if there
>is no corresponding point on
>the other beam (Pope and
>Young Manual, 2017, pg. 89)."
>
>
>BOHNTR )))---------->

Maybe so in P&Y, don't see that in B&C. Well let's see a picture of the elk. Always like to see giant bulls!

elkassassin · Aug 7, 2017

If in Doubt!

Have Homer Score it!

He's made lots of New Friends!

Right Before He Scores Em!

Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!