Mule Deer, Elk and Western Big Game Hunting - MonsterMuleys.com

Time to end the point system

 
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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
07:20 AM (MST)
"Time to end the point system"

Sat in a camp this weekend with my 2 boys,11 and 6. My nephews from 9 to 2.

Their grandpa will never hunt LE with them. At 66 he will be dead.

I might have a slight chance on a lesser unit(elk or deer) with my oldest, but most likely not my youngest.

My dad died before I drew a Manti elk(he was from Manti). He never drew it.

I have 18 moose points. 8 antelope, 4 elk.

Its time to just stop the point system. Its no longer working. It pretty much hasnt since max point holders quit being guaranteed. And even worse, its unbelievably discouraging to the younger generation.

Before I hear the usual bs, lets remember, the guys in their 40's and older, got to suck up points applying for ALL oil every year.

I have 18 moose points. My odds of drawing, are in the single digits. In the unit I apply for, I will never draw, too many points on too many guys, baring just dumb luck. I put in every year knowing I will never draw, same reason I buy Powerball tickets.

Its time to just be done with the whole mess. Time to go straight up random draw. You didn't "buy" points. You can't sell them. You can't trade them. They aren't transferred like an heirloom when u die. You made a donation to wildlife.

Time to end the point system.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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  Table of Contents  

 Subject   Author   Message Date   ID 
 RE: Time to en...  wileywapati      Sep-05-17   1 
  RE: Time to en...  Homer      Sep-05-17   2 
   RE: Time to en...  Blank      Sep-05-17   3 
 RE: Time to en...  Pucci      Sep-05-17   4 
 RE: Time to en...  johnnyutah      Sep-05-17   5 
  RE: Time to en...  WapitiBob      Sep-05-17   7 
  RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-05-17   8 
 RE: Time to en...  Mooretitan      Sep-05-17   6 
  RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-05-17   9 
  RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-05-17   10 
   RE: Time to en...  30Hart      Sep-05-17   11 
    RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-05-17   12 
    RE: Time to en...  deerkiller      Sep-05-17   13 
 RE: Time to en...  DeerMadness      Sep-05-17   14 
  RE: Time to en...  One_Duck_Li...      Sep-05-17   15 
   RE: Time to en...  Muley_73      Sep-05-17   17 
    RE: Time to en...  johnnyutah      Sep-05-17   30 
  RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-05-17   16 
   RE: Time to en...  ELKOHOLIC      Sep-05-17   18 
    RE: Time to en...  Gunnie3035      Sep-05-17   19 
   RE: Time to en...  mulecreek      Sep-05-17   20 
    RE: Time to en...  Packout      Sep-05-17   22 
 RE: Time to en...  BrowningRage      Sep-05-17   21 
  RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-05-17   23 
   RE: Time to en...  elkassassin      Sep-05-17   24 
    RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-05-17   26 
     RE: Time to en...  deerkiller      Sep-05-17   28 
     RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-05-17   34 
 RE: Time to en...  wstrntines      Sep-05-17   25 
  RE: Time to en...  Muley_73      Sep-05-17   27 
   RE: Time to en...  deerkiller      Sep-05-17   29 
    RE: Time to en...  Muley_73      Sep-05-17   35 
     RE: Time to en...  deerkiller      Sep-05-17   39 
     RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-05-17   51 
      RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-05-17   52 
   RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-05-17   31 
   RE: Time to en...  johnnyutah      Sep-05-17   32 
    RE: Time to en...  Muley_73      Sep-05-17   33 
     RE: Time to en...  264mag      Sep-05-17   37 
     RE: Time to en...  johnnyutah      Sep-05-17   38 
     RE: Time to en...  deerkiller      Sep-05-17   40 
      RE: Time to en...  Muley_73      Sep-05-17   45 
     RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-05-17   53 
    RE: Time to en...  ELKOHOLIC      Sep-05-17   36 
     RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-05-17   41 
      RE: Time to en...  grizzly      Sep-05-17   43 
       RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-05-17   50 
     RE: Time to en...  treedagain      Sep-05-17   42 
      RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-05-17   44 
       RE: Time to en...  Muley_73      Sep-05-17   46 
        RE: Time to en...  sticksender      Sep-05-17   48 
         RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-05-17   55 
          RE: Time to en...  Onelegwonder      Sep-06-17   63 
        RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-05-17   49 
        RE: Time to en...  johnnyutah      Sep-06-17   65 
       RE: Time to en...  elkassassin      Sep-05-17   47 
        RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-05-17   54 
         RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-05-17   56 
          RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-05-17   57 
          RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-05-17   58 
           RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-05-17   59 
            RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-05-17   60 
             RE: Time to en...  elkassassin      Sep-06-17   61 
              RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-06-17   62 
               RE: Time to en...  wileywapati      Sep-06-17   64 
                RE: Time to en...  Cheater      Sep-06-17   66 
                 RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-06-17   75 
                RE: Time to en...  Muley_73      Sep-06-17   69 
               RE: Time to en...  mulecreek      Sep-06-17   67 
                RE: Time to en...  Zeke      Sep-06-17   68 
                 RE: Time to en...  mulecreek      Sep-06-17   70 
                  RE: Time to en...  wileywapati      Sep-06-17   71 
                   RE: Time to en...  Vanilla      Sep-06-17   72 
                    RE: Time to en...  Zeke      Sep-06-17   73 
                    RE: Time to en...  Bwht4x4      Sep-06-17   74 
                   RE: Time to en...  Muley_73      Sep-06-17   76 
                    RE: Time to en...  cannonball      Sep-06-17   77 
                   RE: Time to en...  elkassassin      Sep-06-17   78 
                    RE: Time to en...  tx_packmule      Sep-06-17   79 
                     RE: Time to en...  Muley_73      Sep-06-17   80 
                      RE: Time to en...  tx_packmule      Sep-07-17   81 
                       RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-07-17   82 
                        RE: Time to en...  Muley_73      Sep-07-17   83 
                        RE: Time to en...  BeDawg      Sep-07-17   84 
                         RE: Time to en...  tracker12      Sep-07-17   85 
                          RE: Time to en...  elkassassin      Sep-07-17   86 
                           RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-07-17   87 
                           RE: Time to en...  tx_packmule      Sep-07-17   88 
                          RE: Time to en...  LakeDrifter      Sep-07-17   89 
                           RE: Time to en...  elkfromabove      Sep-07-17   90 
                          RE: Time to en...  cannonball      Sep-09-17   94 
                        RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-07-17   91 
                         RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-08-17   92 
                          RE: Time to en...  elkfromabove      Sep-09-17   93 
                           RE: Time to en...  Muley_73      Sep-09-17   95 
                            RE: Time to en...  elkfromabove      Sep-10-17   98 
                             RE: Time to en...  elkfromabove      Sep-12-17   100 
                           RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-09-17   96 
                            RE: Time to en...  Gator      Sep-10-17   97 
 RE: Time to en...  BOHNTR      Sep-11-17   99 
  RE: Time to en...  steepndeepx      Sep-12-17   101 
 RE: Time to en...  bullskin      Sep-12-17   102 
  RE: Time to en...  wileywapati      Sep-12-17   103 
   RE: Time to en...  headshot05      Sep-12-17   104 
    RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-13-17   106 
    RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-13-17   107 
  RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-13-17   105 
   RE: Time to en...  cbeard      Sep-13-17   108 
    RE: Time to en...  elkantlers      Sep-13-17   109 
     RE: Time to en...  wileywapati      Sep-13-17   111 
   RE: Time to en...  bullskin      Sep-13-17   110 
    RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-13-17   112 
     RE: Time to en...  elkassassin      Sep-13-17   113 
      RE: Time to en...  cbeard      Sep-13-17   114 
      RE: Time to en...  wileywapati      Sep-14-17   117 
       RE: Time to en...  elkassassin      Sep-14-17   118 
     RE: Time to en...  bullskin      Sep-13-17   115 
      RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-14-17   120 
       RE: Time to en...  bullskin      Sep-15-17   124 
     RE: Time to en...  bullskin      Sep-28-17   157 
 RE: Time to en...  bullskin      Sep-13-17   116 
  RE: Time to en...  cbeard      Sep-14-17   119 
   RE: Time to en...  Utah400Elk      Sep-14-17   121 
    RE: Time to en...  wstrntines      Sep-14-17   122 
     RE: Time to en...  quest      Sep-15-17   123 
      RE: Time to en...  Darkcloud      Sep-17-17   125 
       RE: Time to en...  ironhead      Sep-17-17   126 
        RE: Time to en...  fin little      Sep-17-17   127 
         RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-17-17   128 
          RE: Time to en...  Darkcloud      Sep-17-17   129 
           RE: Time to en...  cbeard      Sep-17-17   130 
            RE: Time to en...  txhunter58      Sep-17-17   131 
           RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-17-17   132 
            RE: Time to en...  newguy      Sep-17-17   133 
             RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-17-17   134 
             RE: Time to en...  pufftuffly      Sep-18-17   137 
            RE: Time to en...  elkantlers      Sep-17-17   135 
             RE: Time to en...  cbeard      Sep-18-17   136 
              RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-18-17   138 
 RE: Time to en...  dillon      Sep-18-17   139 
  RE: Time to en...  elkassassin      Sep-18-17   140 
  RE: Time to en...  Loner      Sep-18-17   141 
   RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-18-17   142 
    RE: Time to en...  elkassassin      Sep-18-17   143 
     RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-18-17   144 
    RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-18-17   145 
     RE: Time to en...  Deerlove      Sep-19-17   146 
     RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-19-17   147 
      RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-19-17   148 
       RE: Time to en...  hossblur      Sep-19-17   149 
        RE: Time to en...  deadibob      Sep-19-17   150 
 RE: Time to en...  Elkslayer20...      Sep-20-17   151 
  RE: Time to en...  elkantlers      Sep-20-17   152 
   RE: Time to en...  Elkslayer20...      Sep-20-17   153 
    RE: Time to en...  txhunter58      Sep-20-17   154 
     RE: Time to en...  Elkslayer20...      Sep-21-17   155 
      RE: Time to en...  theox      Sep-21-17   156 
       RE: Time to en...  fullthrottle      Sep-28-17   158 

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wileywapati
(1767 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
07:40 AM (MST)
1. "RE: Time to end the point system"

AMEN!!


"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16

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Homer
(2840 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
08:26 AM (MST)
2. "RE: Time to end the point system"

AMEN...x2


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Blank
(1741 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
08:37 AM (MST)
3. "RE: Time to end the point system"

NR with 21 deer and 19 moose points. Been trying to hunt Utah for a looong time. I feel your pain!

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Pucci
(158 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
08:54 AM (MST)
4. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I'm sure your talking preference points which I totally agree. Let's do it the Nevada way with bonus points.

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johnnyutah
(28 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
09:32 AM (MST)
5. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Yes, Convert the bonus points to preference points. Allow the premium deer units a 40:100 buck to doe ratio. People can pick if they are going to be trophy hunters and wait in line or if they are going to be general hunters.

I knew the bonus point system was officially ridiculous when the DWR sold cow moose points, but no hunts were available. Now its going to be a long time before you have max points on a cow moose if you missed a year. The resident cow moose tag is $100 cheaper than an out-of-state bull tag in Ak. Just put a few more days of driving and a few hundred more in gas and do a real moose hunt in the year you pick.

LE Pros: 1) L.E. was a great boost for outfitters which on the surface is a plus. 2) I drew a 2007 Boulder Mountain elk and loved the hunt. It was a great experience. 3) Its been a big revenue generator for the state. 4) Its worked well for elk hunters. There are ample spike and cow tags for meat hunters while allowing trophy opportunities. (Conversely, we could stand to have a couple of more mountain ranges that allow branch antlered general elk hunts or easy-to-draw units.)

LE Cons: 1) I didn't know what a 350 class bull was before L.E. I liked it better when hunters spoke in terms of 28" 4 point instead of 181 & 7/8. 2) Its been the vehicle by which special interests (trophy hunting organizations) have hijacked game management and hosed general hunters.

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WapitiBob
(4049 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
10:24 AM (MST)
7. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Same rant is made in favor of points. Pick a different unit or ride the pine.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
10:29 AM (MST)
8. "RE: Time to end the point system"

No, I mean zero points. No preference, no bonus. Just "name in a hat" every year. Every species. If you want to limit oil to one species that might work. Maybe even one choice for areas. But no advantage to anyone INCLUDING draws for CWMU.

You give the 12yr old the exact same odds I get, same as the 70yr old who got to pad points before rule changes.. LE still exists. Oil still exists.

I realize GO HUNT, Eastmans, etc might not like that change, but other than that I don't see how guides get hurt, statistically the same deep pocket could draw every year.

Lastly, and maybe Hawkeye or the other lawyers might know, but how is it legal under age discrimination laws to have a system set where younger folks are penalized for being younger?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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Mooretitan
(30 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
10:19 AM (MST)
6. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Not sure I understand your point. There is also a chance that you never get drawn on a random tag. Trophy hunts are for people who are willing to play the game and build points. Yes it's sucks that I might have to wait 20 plus years to hunt a true trophy in a so called trophy unit but that doesn't mean there are not tons of units that you can hunt now. Trophy is all what you make it. Take your dad and sons on an otc or spike unit and enjoy what hunting is truly about. Take a trip into a LE unit and bring the camera and enjoy the time together. I might never get a book animal and my kids might never also. But we will have spent many nights in the mountains together on lesser units hunting our hearts out.
Keep the point system, keep the otc units and more than anything get involved in improving habit and herds.
Buy the way there are always people bringing out trophy animals in otc units. It's not easy but you can do it

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
10:50 AM (MST)
9. "RE: Time to end the point system"

This is a simple supply and demand problem. The only way around the problem is to reduce the amount of hunters or increase the amount of tags. Many people remember the days of unlimited deer tags and if it would have continued, there would eventually be nothing left to hunt for anyone.

We are dealing with a finite resource in wildlife that is a fact. There is not enough opportunity/supply available to please the consumer base, another fact.

I don't enjoy shopping for guns at Cabelas, because if there are five gun counter guys and 20 customers, I have to take a number and wait my turn. I either wait my turn or look at my options. I can go to another gun store or find something else entirely to do.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
11:04 AM (MST)
10. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Where are the Oct sheep, goat or moose tags? You should really study the numbers. 20 yes is not realistic. In fact, honest guides will tell you, if your 30 or older, forget EVER hunting sheep, and most likely moose.

Btw, "trophy" isn't true either. I at 43yrs old, hunted open bull elk on the Manti. We were sold it becoming LE and it being a "trophy" unit. 6+ yr old bulls. I believe the Nebo and Wasatch were as well. All 3 were reduced to ease the point creep pressure. The "trophy" LE system as it was originally set up has been changed continuously.

Ya, I'm totally aware you may never draw in an open random system. But, look at the current system. The young folks, are facing that reality now.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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30Hart
(1198 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
11:38 AM (MST)
11. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Only thing that ever happens with this kind of change is you really screw the guys that will draw their units in the following year that have been in line waiting a lot of years. No its a mess and far from perfect, but remember 50% of the tags go in a random draw already seems you forgot about that. Supply is just to big for demand now a days.

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
11:56 AM (MST)
12. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Only thing that ever happens with
>this kind of change is
>you really screw the guys
>that will draw their units
>in the following year that
>have been in line waiting
>a lot of years.
>No its a mess and
>far from perfect, but remember
>50% of the tags go
>in a random draw already
>seems you forgot about that.
> Supply is just to
>big for demand now a
>days.


I think you mean demand is too big for supply

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deerkiller
(336 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
11:56 AM (MST)
13. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 11:57 AM (MST)

I'm 27. I've had 2 LE tags and 1 OIL tag so far. Not to mention a GS deer tag every year since I could apply. Throw in many, many antlerless, swan and Sandhill tags up to this point. Within the next 10 years I bet I draw my mtn goat tag and atleast 1 LE tag (I bet it's probably 2), definitely a cow moose, several doe muley, pronghorn and cow elk tags and probably a GS deer tag just about every year. Quit putting in for San Juan, antelope island and the Henry's. Apply for practical units.There's tons of hunting opportunities out there for youth, middle aged and older people. If you wanna abandon the points system, that's probably because you weren't consistent in applying for everything you can every year you could and now it's not "fair" that you might not ever draw the tag when someone else your age is drawing or damn close to drawing that same tag.

And I'm so sick of hearing about giving youth more opportunities. They get plenty. If your kids aren't getting out and hunting every weekend from August to January in Utah, you have no one to blame but yourself. There is way more opportunities for kids than adults in this state.

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DeerMadness
(1836 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
12:36 PM (MST)
14. "RE: Time to end the point system"

To make it fair they should cancel all the auction tags for 2 years and give max point holders their tags.

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One_Duck_Limit
(32 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
01:30 PM (MST)
15. "RE: Time to end the point system"

If the point system was eliminated what do you propose is done with all the points already earned?

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Muley_73
(1659 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
01:50 PM (MST)
17. "RE: Time to end the point system"

So many ways fix the problem yet no one willing to organize and demand changes. Utah actually has a very good system 1/2 and 1/2. You do have a random chance on every single draw. It is hilarious to me to hear everyone scream that opportunity is more important than quality. Yet the back up on points on every single species would show that exact opposite.

Yeah for sure have Hawkeye go to work on it. I'm sure that will fix the problem. How about understanding the system and working to get some new options added. It could be fixed but fighting it in court is counter productive to the hunting community.

Hoss, your kids have more chance or opportunity to hunt across the board than previous generations. That is a fact. It may not be the exact unit or animal you want to chase but overall they have way more options to experience hunts with grandpa than ever before.

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johnnyutah
(28 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
04:34 PM (MST)
30. "RE: Time to end the point system"

"It is hilarious to me to hear everyone scream that opportunity is more important than quality. Yet the back up on points on every single species would show that exact opposite".

I don't really follow your logic here. Just because I put in for a limited entry hunt, doesn't mean quality is more important to me.

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
01:40 PM (MST)
16. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 01:42 PM (MST)


>To make it fair they should
>cancel all the auction tags
>for 2 years and give
>max point holders their tags.
>

If my kids really want to get their ass kicked, all they have to say is: THAT'S NOT FAIR!.
LIFE IS NOT FAIR! Some people get hit by lightning, some get cancer, some draw tags and some don't!

THERE SEEMS TO BE A MISCONCEPTION FLOATING AROUND THAT LIFE IS SUPPOSED TO BE FAIR, IT ISN'T!

Participation trophies make a weak society!

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ELKOHOLIC
(1284 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
02:15 PM (MST)
18. "RE: Time to end the point system"

+1 Deadi. This is the road our society is going down unfortunately.

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Gunnie3035
(170 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
02:35 PM (MST)
19. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Discrimination against the youth?? You gotta he high!! If anything hunters between 19-62 are discriminated against. It's a pretty easy fix; quit letting youth apply for LE permits until they are 16yo, extend the waiting period; if you draw a LE permit of any kind your on the bench for 3 years on all LE species. No surrendering of any permits w/o a doctors excuse or military orders. Kick the permits up to 75% for max point holders. That would change some sh*t

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mulecreek
(964 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
02:36 PM (MST)
20. "RE: Time to end the point system"


>
>Participation trophies make a weak society!
>

Isn't the accumulation of a PP the hunting tag equivalent of a participation trophy?

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Packout
(1390 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
03:09 PM (MST)
22. "RE: Time to end the point system"

The problem is too many guys have no clue how the point system works. They think their buddy drew a sheep tag with 16 points so they will too. But they only had 6 when he had 16. They don't realize they most likely will never draw point permit.

Currently, guys sitting on 13 Desert Bighorn sheep points are 60+ years out from being in the top pool (which can change as people die off). So he would be at least 27 years old now and add 60 = 87 if there is no change. He might reduce that to 70ish with deaths of other applicants. So he might draw by 2060. Waaahhhhhooooooo.

I like the idea of capping points. Say 25 points is the max you can obtain. Keep it 50-50 split and allow everyone to get to a level playing ground. Some of these tags are 1 in 100+. So a guy would have to outlive other applicants to ever draw in the 50% guarantee. I also like the waiting periods.

Does anyone really think we will have the same tag issuing structure in 2060 as we have today?

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BrowningRage
(3068 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
02:59 PM (MST)
21. "RE: Time to end the point system"

One problem with the Utah point system is that there are thousands of people each year who are allowed to accrue LE points AND hunt.

For example, thousands of people put in for LE Elk and Deer, reducing the chances of everyone else putting in, and then they go buy CWMU tags and hunt what is otherwise a LE unit anyway.

My first action would be that if you draw or buy a CWMU tag in Utah, you burn your LE points. Why..?? Because the thousands of people who can afford to buy those tags will still be able to buy those tags every year, but they will be taken out of the LE Bonus point pool, leaving higher odds for those who remain. Then they will have to choose between putting in for the LE unit, OR hunting on a CWMU, not both.

Second, choose between "general season" and "Limited Entry". This is a tough pill, but in Utah, we now have two point systems, making everything pretty much "Limited Entry" anyway. Imagine for a moment that all 37,000 resident LE Deer permit applicants in 2017 were not allowed a general season tag if they put in for LE... What would that do for the General Season areas..?? It would mean that after a few years, they could be just as good as some LE Units. And, many people would choose to do General Season only, especially those with private land they want to hunt. (I know, your'e thinking, well, not all 37,000 will stay in the LE Draw- and that only helps the point creep.)

These first two ideas I've had are both aimed at reducing and eliminating point creep. Possibly to the point where it is no longer an issue even.

hossblur's idea is a jagged little pill. Random draw every year..?? It might work. But the commercial hunting industry (outfitters, landowners/leasers, conservation groups) own the DWR and Utah caters to their needs very, very well.

I think I'll just go out and get rich, then I won't have to worry about it.

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
03:26 PM (MST)
23. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>One problem with the Utah point
>system is that there are
>thousands of people each year
>who are allowed to accrue
>LE points AND hunt.
>
>For example, thousands of people put
>in for LE Elk and
>Deer, reducing the chances of
>everyone else putting in, and
>then they go buy CWMU
>tags and hunt what is
>otherwise a LE unit anyway.
>
>
>My first action would be that
>if you draw or buy
>a CWMU tag in Utah,
>you burn your LE points.
>Why..?? Because the thousands of
>people who can afford to
>buy those tags will still
>be able to buy those
>tags every year, but they
>will be taken out of
>the LE Bonus point pool,
>leaving higher odds for those
>who remain. Then they will
>have to choose between putting
>in for the LE unit,
>OR hunting on a CWMU,
>not both.
>
>Second, choose between "general season" and
>"Limited Entry". This is a
>tough pill, but in Utah,
>we now have two point
>systems, making everything pretty much
>"Limited Entry" anyway. Imagine for
>a moment that all 37,000
>resident LE Deer permit applicants
>in 2017 were not allowed
>a general season tag if
>they put in for LE...
>What would that do for
>the General Season areas..?? It
>would mean that after a
>few years, they could be
>just as good as some
>LE Units. And, many people
>would choose to do General
>Season only, especially those with
>private land they want to
>hunt. (I know, your'e thinking,
>well, not all 37,000 will
>stay in the LE Draw-
>and that only helps the
>point creep.)
>
>These first two ideas I've had
>are both aimed at reducing
>and eliminating point creep. Possibly
>to the point where it
>is no longer an issue
>even.
>
>hossblur's idea is a jagged little
>pill. Random draw every year..??
>It might work. But the
>commercial hunting industry (outfitters, landowners/leasers,
>conservation groups) own the DWR
>and Utah caters to their
>needs very, very well.
>
>I think I'll just go out
>and get rich, then I
>won't have to worry about
>it.
>
>"Therefore, wo be unto him that
>is at ease in Zion!"
>2 Ne. 28: 24

That is what I've always thought. It's going to be easier to make lots of money and buy tags every year than to rely on what has become the wildlife welfare system. No more taking a number and waiting.

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elkassassin
(15927 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
03:41 PM (MST)
24. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I Ain't Throwin 2+ F'N Decades of Earned Points away!

I Said The Point System Wouldn't Work before they started it & Fought against it!

They Said it would work!

I said it would work somewhat for a while!

I Also said down the Road it'd get so far out of Balance that Young Kids would probably say F'it!

But Nobody believed the Ole cat!

I Ain't Giving up My Points Hoss!

When/After I Get Lucky enough to Burn them/Draw the Permit do as you Wish!

Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
04:04 PM (MST)
26. "RE: Time to end the point system"

As was already pointed out, points are hunting participation trophy.

If your 27, u started hunting big game at 12. The age was lowered twice for you. But you got yours so screw it?

As for "kids can hunt every year" bs line, so can a 50yr old, why is your desire to hunt big game more important than a 12 yr old?

Finally, why was it ok to change the entire tag process by doing points, then do it again by limiting species, but a process set up decades ago is supposed to be chiseled in stone?

Finally #2, I love the "back in the day lectures", but the same guys are too bullheaded to realize that hunting, and its acceptance are dying. We don't have political clout, and every kid we lose is a voter at some point, need to check themselves

Finally #3, every one of U that hunts ANY BIG GAME, does so because the generations previous made it possible, sure good they didn't have the "too damn bad attitude" a bunch of guys have, or YOU would be "doing something else"

Finally #4, when you kick your kids azz for "life not being fair", will you then allow them to return that kicking when you cry about doing away with points not being fair to you?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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deerkiller
(336 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
04:29 PM (MST)
28. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 04:32 PM (MST)

>As was already pointed out, points
>are hunting participation trophy.
>
>If your 27, u started hunting
>big game at 12.
>The age was lowered twice
>for you. But you
>got yours so screw it?
>
>
>As for "kids can hunt every
>year" bs line, so can
>a 50yr old, why is
>your desire to hunt big
>game more important than a
>12 yr old?

I couldn't start applying until I was 14. No age limits were lowered that I benefited from. That happened after I could start applying.

Kids already get a percentage of the permits given to them from the permit pool. There are special hunts just for youth. There are archery only permits just for youth. The list goes on and on. I didn't say my desire out weighs a kids desire to hunt big game. All I said is the youth are already catered to enough in this state. There are tons of benefits of being a youth in this state that most of us, including me, never had when they were a youth hunter. The opportunities are endless for them, and most programs designed just for youth have terrible participation rates. (Ironically, the parents who fought so hard for more youth oriented hunts, are also the ones responsible for not utilizing these youth hunts). And we wanna give them more?? They don't need anymore than what they already have.


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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
05:38 PM (MST)
34. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>As was already pointed out, points
>are hunting participation trophy.
>
>If your 27, u started hunting
>big game at 12.
>The age was lowered twice
>for you. But you
>got yours so screw it?
>
>
>As for "kids can hunt every
>year" bs line, so can
>a 50yr old, why is
>your desire to hunt big
>game more important than a
>12 yr old?
>
>Finally, why was it ok to
>change the entire tag process
>by doing points, then do
>it again by limiting species,
>but a process set up
>decades ago is supposed to
>be chiseled in stone?
>
>Finally #2, I love the "back
>in the day lectures", but
>the same guys are too
>bullheaded to realize that hunting,
>and its acceptance are dying.
> We don't have political
>clout, and every kid we
>lose is a voter at
>some point, need to check
>themselves
>
>Finally #3, every one of U
>that hunts ANY BIG GAME,
>does so because the generations
>previous made it possible, sure
>good they didn't have the
>"too damn bad attitude" a
>bunch of guys have, or
>YOU would be "doing something
>else"
>
>Finally #4, when you kick your
>kids azz for "life not
>being fair", will you then
>allow them to return that
>kicking when you cry about
>doing away with points not
>being fair to you?
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

as to #4 I wouldn't cry about it in the first place, but yes I give them every opportunity to return the kicking, sometimes they try Just like I don't cry about the fact that I had to wait until 16 for my first big game hunt and they at 12.


Maybe the Gov't will let us trade our points in for 40 acres and a mule.

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wstrntines
(818 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
03:50 PM (MST)
25. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Here is my strategy.

I have 8 LE elk points I put in archery in southern utah. After I draw this tag I then apply for wasatch, nebo or manti the next go around.

Deer I have no tag this year and drew the west desert vernon years ago. May put in for the henries after I draw elk. If not I can try for a books tag or cwmu maybe.

Moose- I have 12 I'm in it for the long haul how I will hunt sheep, mtn. goat I don't know. May have to look into other states.

Also I'm going to focus on making as much money as I possibly can and may have to resort to buying tags down the road and if I can I will because point creep is pretty bad.

The last option may be the best at getting some quality animals killed. Until then I just need to put in for more states as well and hunt some decent units that are capable to produce giants. How you get rid of the auction tags. I don't know because that fight is like sueing the federal govt. You're going up against a huge system that doesn't want you taking it's high dollar revenue.

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Muley_73
(1659 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
04:11 PM (MST)
27. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Lots and lots of options. Complaining that people apply for LE and then just buy CWMU is not one of them in my opinion. What if I put in for LE and then go buy a CO landowner permit? Or draw in another state? Its not the outfitters that control this its the opportunists whining that everyone (especially kids) should have a tag in their pocket every single year. I think we should allow you to hunt one animal a year. Whether its, a landowner tag, LE tag, General Tag, Spike Elk, Open Bull, Cow, Doe, one tag for a big game animal an that is it. I would give the most hunters opportunity.

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deerkiller
(336 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
04:33 PM (MST)
29. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Lots and lots of options.
>Complaining that people apply for
>LE and then just buy
>CWMU is not one of
>them in my opinion.
>What if I put in
>for LE and then go
>buy a CO landowner permit?
> Or draw in another
>state? Its not the
>outfitters that control this its
>the opportunists whining that everyone
>(especially kids) should have a
>tag in their pocket every
>single year. I think
>we should allow you to
>hunt one animal a year.
> Whether its, a landowner
>tag, LE tag, General Tag,
>Spike Elk, Open Bull, Cow,
>Doe, one tag for a
>big game animal an that
>is it. I would
>give the most hunters opportunity

Ya that's the worst idea I've heard yet

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Muley_73
(1659 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
05:46 PM (MST)
35. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Deerkiller,
How is it the worst idea? It's not fair that some people get multiple tags. It's not fair that some hunters are ok to shoot antlerless and still apply for LE making it harder for trophy hunters to draw. It's not fair for trophy hunters to make it harder for hunters that just want to meat to draw tags in areas they would like to hunt. None of it is fair, I'm just trying to spread the wealth and make it as fair as possible.

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deerkiller
(336 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
06:09 PM (MST)
39. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Deerkiller,
>How is it the worst idea?
> It's not fair that
>some people get multiple tags.
> It's not fair that
>some hunters are ok to
>shoot antlerless and still apply
>for LE making it harder
>for trophy hunters to draw.
> It's not fair for
>trophy hunters to make it
>harder for hunters that just
>want to meat to draw
>tags in areas they would
>like to hunt. None
>of it is fair, I'm
>just trying to spread the
>wealth and make it as
>fair as possible.

How is it not fair? I've religiously applied for bonus and preference points every year for every species I'm eligible to apply for. After waiting in line for several years at a time, it absolutely is fair that I can have the possibility of drawing more than one tag a year. If I'm lucky enough to draw several tags in a year good for me. We are already restricted enough. Quit wanting even more restrictions. I'm an opportunity hunter. If I can shoot a big buck/bull, awesome. If I can shoot a doe/cow, that's awesome too. Even more awesome if I can do both in the same year

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
08:52 PM (MST)
51. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Deerkiller,
>How is it the worst idea?
> It's not fair that
>some people get multiple tags.
> It's not fair that
>some hunters are ok to
>shoot antlerless and still apply
>for LE making it harder
>for trophy hunters to draw.
> It's not fair for
>trophy hunters to make it
>harder for hunters that just
>want to meat to draw
>tags in areas they would
>like to hunt. None
>of it is fair, I'm
>just trying to spread the
>wealth and make it as
>fair as possible.


This reminds me of hanging out in Walmart just to watch those spoiled little baztards kicking and screaming on the floor: "IT'S NOT FAIR!"

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
08:57 PM (MST)
52. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>>Deerkiller,
>>How is it the worst idea?
>> It's not fair that
>>some people get multiple tags.
>> It's not fair that
>>some hunters are ok to
>>shoot antlerless and still apply
>>for LE making it harder
>>for trophy hunters to draw.
>> It's not fair for
>>trophy hunters to make it
>>harder for hunters that just
>>want to meat to draw
>>tags in areas they would
>>like to hunt. None
>>of it is fair, I'm
>>just trying to spread the
>>wealth and make it as
>>fair as possible.
>
>
>This reminds me of hanging out
>in Walmart just to watch
>those spoiled little baztards kicking
>and screaming on the floor:
>"IT'S NOT FAIR!"

But "its not fair" that You have points that would be lost under a model in which its a straight draw. Again, congrats you were older than 14 the year points came about. If you were 13, then you got screwed on that deal.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
04:35 PM (MST)
31. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I agree with Muley. CWMU is another whole ball of crap.

No one, at least me is saying you should have a tag every year. What everyone of us should have is simply a chance. You don't have to get fancy every hunter of age can put in for one LE species each year, same as now. One OIL same as now. But each hunter gets one chance. Super simple. Easier to conduct drawing.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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johnnyutah
(28 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
04:38 PM (MST)
32. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 04:39 PM (MST)

Muly73,

Don't share the 1 tag/yr idea with the relief society. It would probably get enough support that it would go through.

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Muley_73
(1659 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
05:37 PM (MST)
33. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Johnny,
How about I share the name of the person that first made that suggestion? He's currently in a high level federal position.

Again lots of options and no one willing to listen or think outside the box to fix things.

Oh and Johnny which relief society would you be referring to? The one that has actually organized on occasion to get things passed and changed? Do you even really know the relief society that I actually talk with? Lol... funny

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264mag
(6350 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
05:55 PM (MST)
37. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Give all the tags to SFW ,then we can figure it out later.

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johnnyutah
(28 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
05:55 PM (MST)
38. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I care little about where the idea came from. Regardless of its management implications, a lot of women would love it.

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deerkiller
(336 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
06:22 PM (MST)
40. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Johnny,
>How about I share the name
>of the person that first
>made that suggestion? He's
>currently in a high level
>federal position.
>
He's also an major accomplice to one of the biggest poaching incidents this state has seen in the last 10 years. He's proven he's not in this for the best interest of the average hunter


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Muley_73
(1659 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
07:41 PM (MST)
45. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Deer,
That's a stretch and apparently it didn't seem to concern the president much.

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
08:57 PM (MST)
53. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Johnny,
>How about I share the name
>of the person that first
>made that suggestion? He's
>currently in a high level
>federal position.
>
>Again lots of options and no
>one willing to listen or
>think outside the box to
>fix things.
>
>Oh and Johnny which relief society
>would you be referring to?
>The one that has actually
>organized on occasion to get
>things passed and changed?
>Do you even really know
>the relief society that I
>actually talk with? Lol...


>funny

You're talking about the Relief Society group of mice on "The Rescuers" Where they organize a group of mice to rescue Penny the Orphan. Good movie!

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ELKOHOLIC
(1284 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
05:52 PM (MST)
36. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I have two teenagers that have hunted 3 limited entry hunts between the two of them. Both drew there first year. They have also hunted general season each year. Tell us again how there is no hope for the younger generation? I have also hunted every LE species and 1 OIL. Just like my kids and the new hunters putting in we all start over at 0. If I choose to put in for the Henry's I will probably never draw like everyone else. That's why I choose wisely. Once again......life ain't fair!

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
06:41 PM (MST)
41. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>I have two teenagers that have
>hunted 3 limited entry hunts
>between the two of them.
>Both drew there first year.
>They have also hunted general
>season each year. Tell us
>again how there is no
>hope for the younger generation?
> I have also hunted
>every LE species and 1
>OIL. Just like my kids
>and the new hunters putting
>in we all start over
>at 0. If I choose
>to put in for the
>Henry's I will probably never
>draw like everyone else. That's
>why I choose wisely. Once
>again......life ain't fair!


Why is it so difficult to understand? Not advocating for fairness in results, if you draw every year great. The point is for fairness in chance. And no, guys that had the chance to start putting in the first few years of the point system and guys who started this year aren't even close to being in the same point. And no, if you can do math. Starting today, if your over 30, you have statistically ZERO percent chance at sheep, moose. If "we all start at zero" is no big deal to you, then why is starting at zero every year so scary?

Again don't confuse fairness of results and fairness of opportunity.

Funny, I remember having to front the money to apply. I don't remember all you rigid guys complaining when they made it fair for guys without the scratch to front to apply like those who planned ahead. Bet your azz that was a major irritant to guys who had the money.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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grizzly
(2531 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
07:17 PM (MST)
43. "RE: Time to end the point system"

People often confuse point systems with odds. Point systems do not affect overall odds.

If there 100 guys applying for 7 tags, the odds will always be 7%. It doesn't matter how many tickets each guy gets in the hat, the number always comes back to 7%. Where people really get confused is thinking that if they put their name in the hat 10 times then they have a better chance of drawing a tag. The problem is that everybody else also has their name in the hat 10 times (or 7 or 12). Ultimately, 7 guys will draw a tag and 93 will be unlucky... regardless of "points".

The reason behind points isn't to adjust the odds, its to attempt to increase the likelihood of equality over time, in other words the likelihood that one person won't draw three tags before another guy has even drawn his first. But again, the overall odds never change.

The only true way to affect odds of drawing a tag is to increase tags or decrease applicants. Ultimately nothing else matters. Since our current unofficial management plan calls for very high success rates on all LE and OIL hunts, the seasons must be during prime killing dates. Compare our rut elk dates for example with every other state; where other states push elk hunts later in the year when success decreases and thus can increase tags, Utah desires 100% success rate and must severely limit tags to place the hunts throughout September.

The other problem with points is that there was an arbitrary date picked whereupon everybody of hunting age and inclination could start accumulating that "point". If you were too young, not yet hunting, financially incapable, etc... you are now at a disadvantage leveled by the arbitrary date at which the point system was implemented. How is this the "fairness" that the point pimps claim they desire?

The best system I can see is an Idaho-style draw. There, people can choose to put in for deer/elk/antelope OR one OIL species. These draws are completely free of all point systems and purely random.

This would limit applications by forcing hunters to choose between applying for the three non-trophy species every year OR throwing your hat in for a single OIL hunt and be left with General Season tags or Leftover deer/elk tags to fill their freezers. It basically puts every hunter into a capitalistic-market system where the value of each tag is assigned by the desires of the hunter who can also adjust their applications as their desires change over the years.

This also means the most desiring hunters are the ones who can draw since they had to forego other species just to participate in that particular drawing. The worst idea I've heard is letting everybody apply for all species... all that does is increase applications for each tag without increasing the number of tags. By definition that decreases odds. Sure, you get to put your name in more hats, but so does everybody else, and thus odds DO NOT improve.

There is no reason the youth of today should be penalized simply because of the year they were born and its relation to some arbitrary date a point system was implemented.

Grizzly

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
08:49 PM (MST)
50. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>People often confuse point systems with
>odds. Point systems do not
>affect overall odds.

>
>If there 100 guys applying for
>7 tags, the odds will
>always be 7%. It doesn't
>matter how many tickets each
>guy gets in the hat,
>the number always comes back
>to 7%. Where people really
>get confused is thinking that
>if they put their name
>in the hat 10 times
>then they have a better
>chance of drawing a tag.
>The problem is that everybody
>else also has their name
>in the hat 10 times
>(or 7 or 12). Ultimately,
>7 guys will draw a
>tag and 93 will be
>unlucky... regardless of "points".
>
>The reason behind points isn't to
>adjust the odds, its to
>attempt to increase the likelihood
>of equality over time, in
>other words the likelihood that
>one person won't draw three
>tags before another guy has
>even drawn his first. But
>again, the overall odds never
>change.
>
>The only true way to affect
>odds of drawing a tag
>is to increase tags or
>decrease applicants.
Ultimately nothing else
>matters. Since our current unofficial
>management plan calls for very
>high success rates on all
>LE and OIL hunts, the
>seasons must be during prime
>killing dates. Compare our rut
>elk dates for example with
>every other state; where other
>states push elk hunts later
>in the year when success
>decreases and thus can increase
>tags, Utah desires 100% success
>rate and must severely limit
>tags to place the hunts
>throughout September.
>
>The other problem with points is
>that there was an arbitrary
>date picked whereupon everybody of
>hunting age and inclination could
>start accumulating that "point". If
>you were too young, not
>yet hunting, financially incapable, etc...
>you are now at a
>disadvantage leveled by the arbitrary
>date at which the point
>system was implemented. How is
>this the "fairness" that the
>point pimps claim they desire?
>
>
>The best system I can see
>is an Idaho-style draw. There,
>people can choose to put
>in for deer/elk/antelope OR one
>OIL species. These draws are
>completely free of all point
>systems and purely random.
>
>This would limit applications by forcing
>hunters to choose between applying
>for the three non-trophy species
>every year OR throwing your
>hat in for a single
>OIL hunt and be left
>with General Season tags or
>Leftover deer/elk tags to fill
>their freezers. It basically puts
>every hunter into a capitalistic-market
>system where the value of
>each tag is assigned by
>the desires of the hunter
>who can also adjust their
>applications as their desires change
>over the years.
>
>This also means the most desiring
>hunters are the ones who
>can draw since they had
>to forego other species just
>to participate in that particular
>drawing. The worst idea I've
>heard is letting everybody apply
>for all species... all that
>does is increase applications for
>each tag without increasing the
>number of tags. By definition
>that decreases odds. Sure, you
>get to put your name
>in more hats, but so
>does everybody else, and thus
>odds DO NOT improve.
>
>There is no reason the youth
>of today should be penalized
>simply because of the year
>they were born and its
>relation to some arbitrary date
>a point system was implemented.
>
>
>Grizzly

What he said.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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treedagain
(4233 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
06:52 PM (MST)
42. "RE: Time to end the point system"

if your worried about youth tags, draw a tag and mentor your kid.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
07:29 PM (MST)
44. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>if your worried about youth tags,
>draw a tag and mentor
>your kid.

Which one of my 2 kids do I mentor a sheep tag to?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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Muley_73
(1659 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
07:48 PM (MST)
46. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Johnny,
Still waiting on an answer on which relief society you were referencing?

You guys all crack me up. Let's fix the system. Wait not if it effects me negatively. Selfishness is the root of most issues within the hunting community. Poaching, opportunities, trophies....it all falls under selfishness. Utahs current system tries to accomicate all sides. It does that but is could be much better.

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sticksender
(487 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
08:33 PM (MST)
48. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Best system in the west is probably Idaho, at least with respect to the best odds for drawing limited high demand tags for elk, Sheep, Moose, and Mt Goat. This is because there's no point system whatsoever. And if you choose to apply for Moose, or for Bighorn Sheep, or for California Bighorn Sheep, or for Mt Goats, you cannot apply for any other of the Big-4 that year, nor can you apply for Limited Elk or Limited Deer that year. And if you choose to apply for Limited Deer or Limited Elk, you cannot apply for any of the Big-4 that year. No worries though, since you're not missing out on accruing points. You can freely switch up your app strategy from year to year.

And of course there is a one per lifetime limit on all of the Big-4. The net result for Idaho is that they have, by a huge margin, the best resident odds for drawing any/all of the Big-4, of any state in the west. As a general rule, most Idaho residents who choose to apply for the Big-4 will have a good chance to draw all 4, plus Cow Moose, which actually makes 5, in their lifetimes. To my way of thinking that is a good system. This is also the reason that Idaho resident hunters have fought tooth and nail to stop legislative efforts to put a point system in place.

Harder to assess is how this might work in Utah. The big difference being that Idaho has more more game and habitat.

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
09:02 PM (MST)
55. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Best system in the west is
>probably Idaho, at least with
>respect to the best odds
>for drawing limited high demand
>tags for elk, Sheep, Moose,
>and Mt Goat. This is
>because there's no point system
>whatsoever. And if you choose
>to apply for Moose, or
>for Bighorn Sheep, or for
>California Bighorn Sheep, or for
>Mt Goats, you cannot apply
>for any other of the
>Big-4 that year, nor can
>you apply for Limited Elk
>or Limited Deer that year.
>And if you choose to
>apply for Limited Deer or
>Limited Elk, you cannot apply
>for any of the Big-4
>that year. No worries though,
>since you're not missing out
>on accruing points. You can
>freely switch up your app
>strategy from year to year.
>
>
>And of course there is a
>one per lifetime limit on
>all of the Big-4. The
>net result for Idaho is
>that they have, by a
>huge margin, the best resident
>odds for drawing any/all of
>the Big-4, of any state
>in the west. As a
>general rule, most Idaho residents
>who choose to apply for
>the Big-4 will have a
>good chance to draw all
>4, plus Cow Moose, which
>actually makes 5, in their
>lifetimes. To my way of
>thinking that is a good
>system. This is also the
>reason that Idaho resident hunters
>have fought tooth and nail
>to stop legislative efforts to
>put a point system in
>place.
>
>Harder to assess is how this
>might work in Utah. The
>big difference being that Idaho
>has more more game and
>habitat.


Well there you go….Let's all movie to Idaho. Problem Solved!

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Onelegwonder
(62 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
07:32 AM (MST)
63. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>>Best system in the west is
>>probably Idaho, at least with
>>respect to the best odds
>>for drawing limited high demand
>>tags for elk, Sheep, Moose,
>>and Mt Goat. This is
>>because there's no point system
>>whatsoever. And if you choose
>>to apply for Moose, or
>>for Bighorn Sheep, or for
>>California Bighorn Sheep, or for
>>Mt Goats, you cannot apply
>>for any other of the
>>Big-4 that year, nor can
>>you apply for Limited Elk
>>or Limited Deer that year.
>>And if you choose to
>>apply for Limited Deer or
>>Limited Elk, you cannot apply
>>for any of the Big-4
>>that year. No worries though,
>>since you're not missing out
>>on accruing points. You can
>>freely switch up your app
>>strategy from year to year.
>>
>>
>>And of course there is a
>>one per lifetime limit on
>>all of the Big-4. The
>>net result for Idaho is
>>that they have, by a
>>huge margin, the best resident
>>odds for drawing any/all of
>>the Big-4, of any state
>>in the west. As a
>>general rule, most Idaho residents
>>who choose to apply for
>>the Big-4 will have a
>>good chance to draw all
>>4, plus Cow Moose, which
>>actually makes 5, in their
>>lifetimes. To my way of
>>thinking that is a good
>>system. This is also the
>>reason that Idaho resident hunters
>>have fought tooth and nail
>>to stop legislative efforts to
>>put a point system in
>>place.
>>
>>Harder to assess is how this
>>might work in Utah. The
>>big difference being that Idaho
>>has more more game and
>>habitat.
>
>
>Well there you go….Let's all movie
>to Idaho. Problem Solved!
>

Noooo!!!! Stay away! Lol

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
08:43 PM (MST)
49. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Johnny,
>Still waiting on an answer on
>which relief society you were
>referencing?
>
>You guys all crack me up.
> Let's fix the system.
>Wait not if it effects
>me negatively. Selfishness is
>the root of most issues
>within the hunting community.
>Poaching, opportunities, trophies....it all falls
>under selfishness. Utahs current
>system tries to accomicate all
>sides. It does that
>but is could be much
>better.

That's my point. The system shouldn't accomidate anyone.

Funny how the generations that make fun of participation trophies, are so protective of theirs


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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johnnyutah
(28 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
09:13 AM (MST)
65. "RE: Time to end the point system"

muley73,

Thank you for reminding me to never try to be funny on the internet. Let me explain my thoughts in sincere detail as painful as it is. Your idea is a reasonable one, not without its problems, but it is certainly reasonable. I usually do one big game hunt as that's I'll I realistically have time for, but some years I like to sneak in an antlerless hunt. My wife would love it if I was legally limited to one hunt, I know many other wives who would like your idea. So even if it 1 tag/yr. is the perfect management plan,for purely selfish reasons, I'm begging you not to let the LDS Relief Society know about this - its the biggest organization of women in Utah and the world, has a strong presence in rural areas, and would likely get your idea through in a New York second. Way more powerful than SFW, but they are a sleeping giant.

Please no more follow up questions, I'm not funny, I've learned my lesson.

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elkassassin
(15927 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
08:31 PM (MST)
47. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>>if your worried about youth tags,
>>draw a tag and mentor
>>your kid.
>
>Which one of my 2 kids
>do I mentor a sheep
>tag to?
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


I'm Not giving 22 of them up hoss!

Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
Click to EMail hossblur Click to send private message to hossblur Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-05-17, 
09:02 PM (MST)
54. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>>>if your worried about youth tags,
>>>draw a tag and mentor
>>>your kid.
>>
>>Which one of my 2 kids
>>do I mentor a sheep
>>tag to?
>>
>>
>>"The only thing that stops a
>>bad guy with a gun
>>is a good guy with
>>a gun"
>
>
> I'm Not giving 22 of
>them up hoss!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>is a Little Close &
>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>
>
>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>will Still Make Some Good
>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>Say I At Least Hit
>Him!
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo
>
>

Try selling them, or willing them to your kids. Might shock u what you "own"


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
09:09 PM (MST)
56. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>>>>if your worried about youth tags,
>>>>draw a tag and mentor
>>>>your kid.
>>>
>>>Which one of my 2 kids
>>>do I mentor a sheep
>>>tag to?
>>>
>>>
>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>is a good guy with
>>>a gun"
>>
>>
>> I'm Not giving 22 of
>>them up hoss!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>>is a Little Close &
>>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>>
>>
>>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>>will Still Make Some Good
>>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>>Say I At Least Hit
>>Him!
>>
>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo
>>
>>
>
>Try selling them, or willing them
>to your kids. Might shock
>u what you "own"
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Hey Hoss, what about a head-on collision with a high-speed freight train? Pretty sure that will stop a bad guy with a gun.

Would it make any difference if it was a BULLET TRAIN!

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
09:15 PM (MST)
57. "RE: Time to end the point system"

My first signature ever!
A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
Click to EMail hossblur Click to send private message to hossblur Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-05-17, 
09:15 PM (MST)
58. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>>>>>if your worried about youth tags,
>>>>>draw a tag and mentor
>>>>>your kid.
>>>>
>>>>Which one of my 2 kids
>>>>do I mentor a sheep
>>>>tag to?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>>is a good guy with
>>>>a gun"
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm Not giving 22 of
>>>them up hoss!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>>>is a Little Close &
>>>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>>>
>>>
>>>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>>>will Still Make Some Good
>>>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>>>Say I At Least Hit
>>>Him!
>>>
>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Try selling them, or willing them
>>to your kids. Might shock
>>u what you "own"
>>
>>
>>"The only thing that stops a
>>bad guy with a gun
>>is a good guy with
>>a gun"
>
>Hey Hoss, what about a head-on
>collision with a high-speed freight
>train? Pretty sure that will
>stop a bad guy with
>a gun.
>
>Would it make any difference if
>it was a BULLET TRAIN!
>

Ummm, I have an ultra mag, it stops everything


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-05-17, 
09:20 PM (MST)
59. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17 AT 09:22 PM (MST)

>>>>>>if your worried about youth tags,
>>>>>>draw a tag and mentor
>>>>>>your kid.
>>>>>
>>>>>Which one of my 2 kids
>>>>>do I mentor a sheep
>>>>>tag to?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>>>is a good guy with
>>>>>a gun"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm Not giving 22 of
>>>>them up hoss!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>>>>is a Little Close &
>>>>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>>>>will Still Make Some Good
>>>>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>>>>Say I At Least Hit
>>>>Him!
>>>>
>>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>Try selling them, or willing them
>>>to your kids. Might shock
>>>u what you "own"
>>>
>>>
>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>is a good guy with
>>>a gun"
>>
>>Hey Hoss, what about a head-on
>>collision with a high-speed freight
>>train? Pretty sure that will
>>stop a bad guy with
>>a gun.
>>
>>Would it make any difference if
>>it was a BULLET TRAIN!
>>
>
>Ummm, I have an ultra mag,
>it stops everything
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"
Had several of those. 6.5 ultramag and a .375 ultramag, wasn't impressed. Now my .50 bmg with armor-piercing incendiary tips, that stops stuff!

A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
Click to EMail hossblur Click to send private message to hossblur Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-05-17, 
10:11 PM (MST)
60. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-17
>AT 09:22 PM (MST)

>
>>>>>>>if your worried about youth tags,
>>>>>>>draw a tag and mentor
>>>>>>>your kid.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Which one of my 2 kids
>>>>>>do I mentor a sheep
>>>>>>tag to?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>>>>is a good guy with
>>>>>>a gun"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm Not giving 22 of
>>>>>them up hoss!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>>>>>is a Little Close &
>>>>>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>>>>>will Still Make Some Good
>>>>>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>>>>>Say I At Least Hit
>>>>>Him!
>>>>>
>>>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Try selling them, or willing them
>>>>to your kids. Might shock
>>>>u what you "own"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>>is a good guy with
>>>>a gun"
>>>
>>>Hey Hoss, what about a head-on
>>>collision with a high-speed freight
>>>train? Pretty sure that will
>>>stop a bad guy with
>>>a gun.
>>>
>>>Would it make any difference if
>>>it was a BULLET TRAIN!
>>>
>>
>>Ummm, I have an ultra mag,
>>it stops everything
>>
>>
>>"The only thing that stops a
>>bad guy with a gun
>>is a good guy with
>>a gun"
>Had several of those. 6.5 ultramag
>and a .375 ultramag, wasn't
>impressed. Now my .50 bmg
>with armor-piercing incendiary tips, that
>stops stuff!
>
>A BULLET TRAIN! The only other
>thing besides a good guy
>with a gun, that will
>stop a bad guy with
>a gun


.17hmr closest in would have to an ultra mag


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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elkassassin
(15927 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
05:30 AM (MST)
61. "RE: Time to end the point system"


Just for some of you PUNK-ASS-ROOKIES!

A Few of us did have to wait till We were 16 to Hunt Big Game!

So There's 4 Years of Hunting We'll Never get Back!

And 4 Years that were Far Better than what it is today!


Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
07:03 AM (MST)
62. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>
>Just for some of you PUNK-ASS-ROOKIES!
>
>
>A Few of us did have
>to wait till We were
>16 to Hunt Big Game!
>
>
>So There's 4 Years of Hunting
>We'll Never get Back!
>
>And 4 Years that were Far
>Better than what it is
>today!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>is a Little Close &
>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>
>
>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>will Still Make Some Good
>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>Say I At Least Hit
>Him!
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo
>
>

Thanks for making my point better than I could Bess. This point fiasco.
If you were born prior to some arbitrary moment in time, you are ENTITLED to Sheep, Moose, San Juan elk, Henry's Deer. Its your birthright. Born a day late, well you young fellas, go occupy yourself anterless hunts, or swans.
Or go to some other state(still waiting for those OTC Sheep tag lists).

Now young bucks, we are gonna sit around and tell you how the system needs to remain in tact. We hope you won't notice that the original system YOU FRONTED THE MONEY. Or that YOU COULD POINT FOR MORE THAN ONE SPECIES. We want you flatbrimmers to listen to what we say, and not point out we are full of chit.

We are gonna sit around, telling you all about how "we all started at zero", hoping that cc math you all do doesn't show you that when we did "start at zero" on year one, EVERY ONE OF US WAS IN THE MAX POINT POOL. Or that with 3 tags, and 60 max guys, you start at zero, but are still at zero 40 years later.

Now here's the rub you young dumazzes. We let all of n utah go CWMU. We let 316 tags go into groups. We created vast swaths of LE that because of your age you will NEVER access. We cut deer tags from the 250k we had, to our present number. But we are gonna sit around and bs you about how good things are for u compared to when we were a kid. We EXPECT you to vote the way we do. WE expect you to invest in gear to support Pitman Robinson. We expect you to show up and support a system that 100% discriminates against you because of your birthday. So sit down, shut up, leave us old guys to our participation trophies, and our entitled positions.

Thank God guys like Teddy Roosevelt didn't have you all attitude or places like yellowstone would be a CWMU. But lets at least be honest. For all the yapping about the Millenials, in this sport, the older guys are the self serving, me first, entitled, participation trophy, members.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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wileywapati
(1767 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
07:44 AM (MST)
64. "RE: Time to end the point system"

We could add more bull tags by lowering the age classification across all units to a 5 year old bull.

We could add more opportunity by allocating permits based on harvest percentage of weapon type. Triple archery allocations and reduce by two thirds the rifle rut tags.

We could implement a split season hunt schedule to get more people through the system faster.

We could get the rifle hunt out of the rut, lowering success and preserving more bulls.

Or we could stick with the pyramid scheme y'all been sold.

Spit out the hook people.

WTFO Begin


"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16

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Cheater
(104 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
09:33 AM (MST)
66. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I would be okay eliminating the points system as long as there was a transition period (i.e. in 5 or 10 yrs the change takes effect). This would allow those who have built points for ~20 years to use it or lose it.

Still allow just one LE species app and one OIL species app. Keep LE waiting periods.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
02:37 PM (MST)
75. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>I would be okay eliminating the
>points system as long as
>there was a transition
>period (i.e. in 5 or
>10 yrs the change takes
>effect). This would allow
>those who have built points
>for ~20 years to use
>it or lose it.
>
>Still allow just one LE species
>app and one OIL species
>app. Keep LE waiting
>periods.

I'd say 5 years. But I totally agree otherwise


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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Muley_73
(1659 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
10:33 AM (MST)
69. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Oh and wiley starts to mix up the batter. It goes for deer, elk, lope. The OIL are a little tougher but there are options there too. All of those things would create more opportunity AND you could sustain and even increase quality.

This was one of the main reasons I personally pushed so hard for Option 2 a few years ago. It opened the door to more management options on every unit. Lets be real and understand that the demand is higher than the supply with big game. So we have to get creative and outside the box with our management. The old status quo will not improve things.

Why not make 6 more archery only units for deer. Make them LE and issue 500 tags on each. 3500 tags per year on units that would grow big bucks. If you did that you would be amazed at how many hunters would jump to those units if you could draw them every 3 or 4 years. Start at 500 and go from there. If your buck to doe and age class keep increasing you could jump to 700-800. that would be 5000 hunters a year going through the LE pipeline.

Do the same on a few elk units. Look at Fish Lake or Wasatch units. If you shot for a 5 year old age class and made those units archery only you could pump 1000s through the elk LE yearly and still have big bulls to chase.

You would also improve rifle and muzzy odds because I guarantee you would have many "trophy hunters" jump the archery if they could draw them every 3-4 years rather than wait 10-15 to rifle hunt. If you wait 10-15 for rifle will then you still would have a shot at killing 3 or 4 mature bulls in your hunting lifetime.

There are many more options that could be implemented, but it takes work and a desire to improve not just go with the status quo. The DWR will never work outside the status quo unless they are forced to. I promise!!!!

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mulecreek
(964 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
09:53 AM (MST)
67. "RE: Time to end the point system"


>Or go to some other state(still
>waiting for those OTC Sheep
>tag lists).
>
http://fwp.mt.gov/hunting/regulations/

Click on sheep hunting districts. MT has 4 units with unlimited tags for sheep. Just buy a tag and go hunt a sheep.

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Zeke
(8278 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
10:19 AM (MST)
68. "RE: Time to end the point system"

What I've read in many posts above is nothing more than "what benefits me and mine the most and to hell with the rest of you guys". Just "adults whining" about covers it and we use the "youth" card to attempt a rational thought.

Changing any tag distribution system benefits some and punishes others. It's really that simple.

The youth will draw something if they stay the course since old dudes draw, drop out or die (and even some young ones die too). There's always something to hunt, period.

Remember this; odds wouldn't change all that much anyway and not everyone will have a sheep tag, EVER. There is, and will always be, too much demand.

My points are gone or really low so it would benefit me to see points dissolved but it would hurt others.

Zeke

#livelikezac

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mulecreek
(964 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
12:21 PM (MST)
70. "RE: Time to end the point system"

What Zeke said!

Always something to hunt. May not be what you want or where you want it but opportunity exists.

I have a 9 year old and an 11 year old, so I understand the frustration they may have towards their future ability to hunt sheep, moose, goat, or high end LE elk and deer units. However, they have choices. If they want the cheapest option then plan on waiting a long time and possibly never getting the chance in the State they reside. If they want a more expensive option then apply in multiple States and be prepared to wait a slightly shorter amount of time and possibly never get a tag. If they want the most expensive option then buy your tags and hunts. Just be prepared to bust your ass in school, spend years in higher education then years paying your dues on the job to get to the income levels that allow you to buy tags. All the while knowing that it may never happen for them. Like it or not those are the options. Whether draws are totally random, totally PP based or any combination thereof those are still the options.

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wileywapati
(1767 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
12:51 PM (MST)
71. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Cody, thats the point of my post...

There can be no change... No management... Nothing different because these point systems create an entitlement group that would lose their damn minds.

So instead of managing for the masses and the benefits of our herds we manage for two of the smallest demographics in the hunting community. Max point holders and wealth tag buyers.

I've said for years. Create a five year phase out period for this point pyramid scheme, go straight luck of the draw with no waiting periods.


"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16

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Vanilla
(886 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
01:11 PM (MST)
72. "RE: Time to end the point system"

How many years into a pure "luck of the draw" system until the same people whining about the point system are whining that we should change the system again to reward those that have applied the longest?

I do not believe there is any perfect system to draw big game tags when the demand so vastly outnumbers the supply, like here in Utah. But I like Utah's system. I understand the crappy nature of point creep and how that will impact me and my children going forward, but I could wait just as long or longer in a straight lottery style draw as well. It is what it is. Not perfect, but neither is any other option.

Again, it would be less than 10 years into a new system before most of the same people would start whining about the new system as well. Some people can never be appeased.

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Zeke
(8278 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
01:39 PM (MST)
73. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>How many years into a pure
>"luck of the draw" system
>until the same people whining
>about the point system are
>whining that we should change
>the system again to reward
>those that have applied the
>longest?
>
>I do not believe there is
>any perfect system to draw
>big game tags when the
>demand so vastly outnumbers the
>supply, like here in Utah.
>But I like Utah's system.
>I understand the crappy nature
>of point creep and how
>that will impact me and
>my children going forward, but
>I could wait just as
>long or longer in a
>straight lottery style draw as
>well. It is what it
>is. Not perfect, but neither
>is any other option.
>
>Again, it would be less than
>10 years into a new
>system before most of the
>same people would start whining
>about the new system as
>well. Some people can never
>be appeased.

What he said^^^^.
That's a perfect assessment!

Zeke

#livelikezac

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Bwht4x4
(512 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
01:53 PM (MST)
74. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I have 20+ pts for LE and haven't drawn yet. Had 5 pts when I drew a LE SWD archery elk tag. BTW, I'm a NR.

The UT system works, but I'd much rather have the NV system. I'm not a fan of the systems that allocate a percentage of tags to the applicants with the greatest number of points. Without a doubt the CO preference point system is the worst!!

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Muley_73
(1659 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
04:36 PM (MST)
76. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Gordy,
With the suggestions that I made it leaves top in units for those groups while creating more units that would burn points. I also believe those units would start to produce bigger animals and create a less pressured atmosphere that would draw even more hunters away from the traditional top end units. It would be a very very easy fix to a complex problem.

But the people of Utah fear change and have trouble thinking for themselves and it puts us all in a static state. Good thing I have fallen in love with hunting coues deer and my boys have become fly fishing addicts. And I'm willing to pay to play the game in multiple states. Maybe moving to Utah County will help be see the light now. LOL

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cannonball
(854 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
06:03 PM (MST)
77. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I am not going to read everything that has been written and something needs to be done. My solutions is this: You can apply for any and all of the draws and if you do draw you loose all of your points regardless of the hunt. Only exceptions are those hunts where the applications are not as many as the permits. In one year 90% of the bonus points will be gone.

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elkassassin
(15927 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
06:16 PM (MST)
78. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Cody, thats the point of my
>post...
>
>There can be no change... No
>management... Nothing different because these
>point systems create an entitlement
>group that would lose their
>damn minds.
>
>So instead of managing for the
>masses and the benefits of
>our herds we manage for
>two of the smallest demographics
>in the hunting community. Max
>point holders and wealth tag
>buyers.
>
>I've said for years. Create a
>five year phase out period
>for this point pyramid scheme,
>go straight luck of the
>draw with no waiting periods.
>
>
>
>
>
>"If the DWR was just doing
>its job, and
>wildlife and hunting were the actual
>focus,
>none of this process would even
>matter.
>But that is not the focus
>or the goal in any
>
>of this. The current DWR regime,
>and
>SFW were born out of wildlife
>declines,
>and are currently operated and funded
>
>under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
>
>tags would not even be worth
>anything if
>the focus was where it was
>supposed to
>be, and wildlife and tags were
>plentiful.
>But under the current business model,
>
>that is how the money and
>power is
>generated. It is generated through the
>
>rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
>resource. A resource that is supposed
>to
>be being beneficially managed for the
>
>masses that own that resource, ie.
>US.
>The problem is obvious, hedging is
>not a
>long term sustainable strategy, and
>others have to lose, for some
>to win. In
>this case it is us, the
>many, and our
>resources, that are being forced to
>lose,
>because there is a minority who's
>power
>and money is derived from our
>loses."
>
>LONETREE 3/15/16

Hey ww!

Just by a General Elk Tag if all You Want is a PISSCUTTER!

JUDAS!

Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo

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tx_packmule
(791 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
07:57 PM (MST)
79. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Option A: True point system...no bonus..no squaring, no random # sequence, no leaving it up to luck of the draw, no hybrid..

Eventually top points will expire and youth will have their shot if hi-demand hunts are their priority.

Set aside 2 tags per species, per unit/zone (if mgmt can't allow 2 additional animals, get it fixed) and do open date $1-5 raffle tag and one local auction. Spread that expo $ brought to SLC/Vegas/etc to smaller communities with series of smaller events.

OptionB:

Give everyone a tag so odds of having something to hunt are always 100% and hope ppl are good stewards.

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Muley_73
(1659 posts)
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Sep-06-17, 
11:03 PM (MST)
80. "RE: Time to end the point system"

tx,
That is the most absurd idea to come from a Texan ever on MM, and that my friend is an enormous accomplishment!

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tx_packmule
(791 posts)
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Sep-07-17, 
05:32 AM (MST)
81. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>tx,
>That is the most absurd idea
>to come from a Texan
>ever on MM, and that
>my friend is an enormous
>accomplishment!


Well, I try to set the bar high.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-07-17, 
04:18 PM (MST)
82. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Its amazing to me how hard it is for guys to get the difference in fairness of opportunity vs fairness of results.

Its pretty simple. You shouldn't get an advantage o the PUBLICS wildlife based on when you were born. PERIOD. There is more demand than supply, but that demand is not greater at 60 than at 15. That 15yr old should have the exact same chance at a sheep, or Henry's as that 60yr old. I read posts all the time condemning the deep pockets ADVANTAGE in buying tags, end running draws, waiting periods. However those same guys will scream bloody murder that anyone suggest they lose their ADVANTAGE, based on what year they are born.

A straight up lottery, with zero points, bonus or preference ensures fairness of opportunity. There would be zero fairness in results. A guy could conceivably draw an LE elk every five years, or perhaps never. You don't get bonus points in the Powerball. You don't playing a slot machine, or betting the ponies.

We need to think further down the road than this year. If you have kids coming up how do you tell them they are hunters, like all the rest of us, but forget a whole block of hunts,because their birthday is wrong? How do you expect them to care about sheep or moose, when they aren't EVER going to have a chance at one?

Hunting should not be the tax code where we carve out exceptions and niches for various parties.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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Muley_73
(1659 posts)
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Sep-07-17, 
06:44 PM (MST)
83. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Hoss,
Maybe take a knee during opening weekend???

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BeDawg
(290 posts)
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Sep-07-17, 
06:47 PM (MST)
84. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Keep the point system. But either way it is fair. People need to stop complaining and do there best to work with the system at hand.

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tracker12
(858 posts)
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Sep-07-17, 
07:13 PM (MST)
85. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I think they need some Senior tags for us old farts.

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elkassassin
(15927 posts)
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Sep-07-17, 
07:19 PM (MST)
86. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>I think they need some Senior
>tags for us old farts.
>

Ya!

What about the Old Bastards?

They Count for anything?

Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
Click to EMail hossblur Click to send private message to hossblur Click to view user profile Click to check IP address of the poster
Sep-07-17, 
07:34 PM (MST)
87. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>>I think they need some Senior
>>tags for us old farts.
>>
>
>Ya!
>
>What about the Old Bastards?
>
>They Count for anything?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>is a Little Close &
>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>
>
>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>will Still Make Some Good
>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>Say I At Least Hit
>Him!
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo
>
>

Sure. They don't count for MORE though.

Like I said I'm not 12. I'm 43. In my deer camp there are more 60+ than 12 yr old. I'd like that to continue. I hope I'm one of those 60+ guys in a camp with kids. Guys keep saying there's "plenty of opportunity" for young guys, but when that gets flipped, older guys believe their LE, OIL opportunity is more important. The same lines of anterless, spikes, apply to everyone, not just kids.

Funny thing, most of the guys arguing, won't ever draw either, they just don't do the math. Do the math, unless you are maxed, your odds don't improve, you just get mesmerized by you point total


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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tx_packmule
(791 posts)
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Sep-07-17, 
08:46 PM (MST)
88. "RE: Time to end the point system"

That seems to be covered in the regular draw.

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LakeDrifter
(62 posts)
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Sep-07-17, 
10:09 PM (MST)
89. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I agree, they need to give the seniors 70 plus more tags!

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elkfromabove
(1104 posts)
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Sep-07-17, 
10:23 PM (MST)
90. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>I agree, they need to give
>the seniors 70 plus more
>tags!

I tried to get that done on the Mule Deer Committee, but it became a standing Geezer Tag joke that I even enjoyed. It never happened, but at least they heard it. We'll just have to give them a little more time to grow up, I mean mature.


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cannonball
(854 posts)
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Sep-09-17, 
10:50 AM (MST)
94. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>I think they need some Senior
>tags for us old farts.

Ya know I agree, if you are still hunting after 70 you should be able to even shoot out of the window of a vehicle. You also should also be required to shoot a flintlock ML and wear buckskins. Of course I am kidding.

This year I drew the management hunt on the Pauns with four points and I am going to mentor my Grandson. The point is this: The archers used to claim a longer hunt and they got it because the bow was not as lethal as a gun and their percent kill was less(unless you count the wounded ones that died). Of course with these 100 yard bows that is no longer the case.

Put a tag in an over 70 person and the kill percentage goes way down therefore put more 70+'ers in the mountains and save the deer.
>


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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-07-17, 
11:08 PM (MST)
91. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-17 AT 11:10 PM (MST)

>Its amazing to me how hard
>it is for guys to
>get the difference in fairness
>of opportunity vs fairness of
>results.
>
>Its pretty simple. You shouldn't
>get an advantage o the
>PUBLICS wildlife based on when
>you were born. PERIOD.
> There is more demand
>than supply, but that demand
>is not greater at 60
>than at 15. That
>15yr old should have the
>exact same chance at a
>sheep, or Henry's as that
>60yr old. I read
>posts all the time condemning
>the deep pockets ADVANTAGE in
>buying tags, end running draws,
>waiting periods. However those
>same guys will scream bloody
>murder that anyone suggest they
>lose their ADVANTAGE, based on
>what year they are born.
>
>
>A straight up lottery, with zero
>points, bonus or preference ensures
>fairness of opportunity. There
>would be zero fairness in
>results. A guy could
>conceivably draw an LE elk
>every five years, or perhaps
>never. You don't get
>bonus points in the Powerball.
> You don't playing a
>slot machine, or betting the
>ponies.
>
>We need to think further down
>the road than this year.
> If you have kids
>coming up how do you
>tell them they are hunters,
>like all the rest of
>us, but forget a whole
>block of hunts,because their birthday
>is wrong? How do
>you expect them to care
>about sheep or moose, when
>they aren't EVER going to
>have a chance at one?
>
>
>Hunting should not be the tax
>code where we carve out
>exceptions and niches for various
>parties.
>
>
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun


That is just straight up retard logic. It will all even out in the end. Those who have been putting in for 20 years and may now have an advantage over someone who is young and just starting to put in for draws and points. Assuming groups of both ages have a 50 year hunting career span, Those older guys will be dead and out of the system 20 years before the younger ones. As the older generation dies off or burns their points on a draw, those max point holder numbers will continue to drop and the younger hunters with less points now, will steadily accumulate points and rise to the upper end of the point curve. Eventually becoming max point holders.

To say older hunters have an advantage over younger hunters is taking a short sighted view of things and not comparing that overall 50 year career span.

There will always be up and down fluctuations over time depending on hunter and tag numbers. This is always going to be outside the control of any draw system however.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-08-17, 
07:17 AM (MST)
92. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>LAST EDITED ON Sep-07-17
>AT 11:10 PM (MST)

>
>>Its amazing to me how hard
>>it is for guys to
>>get the difference in fairness
>>of opportunity vs fairness of
>>results.
>>
>>Its pretty simple. You shouldn't
>>get an advantage o the
>>PUBLICS wildlife based on when
>>you were born. PERIOD.
>> There is more demand
>>than supply, but that demand
>>is not greater at 60
>>than at 15. That
>>15yr old should have the
>>exact same chance at a
>>sheep, or Henry's as that
>>60yr old. I read
>>posts all the time condemning
>>the deep pockets ADVANTAGE in
>>buying tags, end running draws,
>>waiting periods. However those
>>same guys will scream bloody
>>murder that anyone suggest they
>>lose their ADVANTAGE, based on
>>what year they are born.
>>
>>
>>A straight up lottery, with zero
>>points, bonus or preference ensures
>>fairness of opportunity. There
>>would be zero fairness in
>>results. A guy could
>>conceivably draw an LE elk
>>every five years, or perhaps
>>never. You don't get
>>bonus points in the Powerball.
>> You don't playing a
>>slot machine, or betting the
>>ponies.
>>
>>We need to think further down
>>the road than this year.
>> If you have kids
>>coming up how do you
>>tell them they are hunters,
>>like all the rest of
>>us, but forget a whole
>>block of hunts,because their birthday
>>is wrong? How do
>>you expect them to care
>>about sheep or moose, when
>>they aren't EVER going to
>>have a chance at one?
>>
>>
>>Hunting should not be the tax
>>code where we carve out
>>exceptions and niches for various
>>parties.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>"The only thing that stops a
>>bad guy with a gun
>>is a good guy with
>>a gun"
>
>
>A BULLET TRAIN! The only other
>thing besides a good guy
>with a gun, that will
>stop a bad guy with
>a gun
>
>
>That is just straight up retard
>logic. It will all even
>out in the end. Those
>who have been putting in
>for 20 years and
>may now have an advantage
>over someone who is young
>and just starting to put
>in for draws and points.
>Assuming groups of both ages
>have a 50 year hunting
>career span, Those older guys
>will be dead and out
>of the system 20 years
>before the younger ones. As
>the older generation dies off
>or burns their points on
>a draw, those max point
>holder numbers will continue to
>drop and the younger
>hunters with less points now,
>will steadily accumulate points and
>rise to the upper end
>of the point curve. Eventually
>becoming max point holders.
>
>To say older hunters have an
>advantage over younger hunters is
>taking a short sighted view
>of things and not comparing
>that overall 50 year career
>span.
>
>There will always be up and
>down fluctuations over time depending
>on hunter and tag numbers.
>This is always going to
>be outside the control of
>any draw system however.

Get out a calculator, do some math. It doesn't balance out. Your also hoping that kid sticks around for 50 years. With less and less access to land, and smaller and smaller odds as compared to us "grandpas", what do offer?

A very smart, very rich developer once told me, "numbers are all that matter". Emotions, feelings, are all just that. When you bust out the calculator, actually look at all the dudes with max and near max, then see the tag numbers, 3/4 of you ain't ever drawing. EVER. You get so mesmerized at seeing "he drew with 20, I have 19, next year is the year" fantasy you never look at the 50 other guys with 20 points, meaning your decades away, not next year. Now look at that from a 12yr old.

But, I guess your access to these species and units should be based on when your old man talked his way into some loving one night, that makes total sense.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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elkfromabove
(1104 posts)
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Sep-09-17, 
10:06 AM (MST)
93. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Take the OIL tags out of the mentor program! That will reduce the number of applications. Or, better yet, apply the consequences of using ANY of the permits in the mentor program to BOTH the mentor and the mentee. After all, as we're so often reminded on this forum, it is only a HUNTING permit and doesn't guarantee a kill, and both of them are HUNTING. Waiting periods, OIL rules, number and type of additional permits, seasons, etc. apply to both. The kid is allowed to do only what the adult is allowed to do.

Stick closer to the Mule Deer Management Plan! Issue enough permits to bring/keep the buck to doe ratios within the unit objectives. And issue enough doe permits to bring/keep them within the population objectives.

Increase the deer archery permit percentages and add some Extended Archery Areas and Hunts to that program (deer units that are over population objectives and buck to doe ratios and/or elk units where population numbers need to be reduced or eliminated).

I'll add more as I think of them, but for now I need the computer for more important things. (Yes, there are more important things in life than hunting.)

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Muley_73
(1659 posts)
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Sep-09-17, 
12:42 PM (MST)
95. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Lee,
Didn't you have multiple tags this year? Or last? Like 4 tags total? Or more?

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elkfromabove
(1104 posts)
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Sep-10-17, 
11:15 PM (MST)
98. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Lee,
>Didn't you have multiple tags this
>year? Or last? Like 4
>tags total? Or more?

Last year I drew an antlerless deer tag and bought an archery elk tag OTC.

This year, I drew a general season archery buck deer permit and an archery buck antelope tag and was given a depredation antlerless deer tag by a friend and I bought an archery elk tag OTC.

But why did you ask?


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elkfromabove
(1104 posts)
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Sep-12-17, 
02:57 PM (MST)
100. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-17 AT 02:59 PM (MST)

>>Lee,
>>Didn't you have multiple tags this
>>year? Or last? Like 4
>>tags total? Or more?
>
>Last year I drew an antlerless
>deer tag and bought an
>archery elk tag OTC.
>
>This year, I drew a general
>season archery buck deer permit
>and an archery buck antelope
>tag and was given a
>depredation antlerless deer tag by
>a friend and I bought
>an archery elk tag OTC.
>
>
>But why did you ask?

Cody, I'm still waiting for an answer! I'm curious to know how the number of tags I've had in the last two years has a bearing on this thread or my suggestions.

But since you asked, I'll return the favor. How many tags have you had in the last two years?. (And don't forget the non-resident tags that you drew or bought in other states.)


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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-09-17, 
01:19 PM (MST)
96. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Take the OIL tags out of
>the mentor program! That will
>reduce the number of applications.
>Or, better yet, apply the
>consequences of using ANY of
>the permits in the mentor
>program to BOTH the mentor
>and the mentee. After all,
>as we're so often reminded
>on this forum, it is
>only a HUNTING permit and
>doesn't guarantee a kill, and
>both of them are HUNTING.
>Waiting periods, OIL rules, number
>and type of additional permits,
>seasons, etc. apply to both.
>The kid is allowed to
>do only what the adult
>is allowed to do.
>
>Stick closer to the Mule Deer
>Management Plan! Issue enough permits
>to bring/keep the buck to
>doe ratios within the unit
>objectives. And issue enough doe
>permits to bring/keep them within
>the population objectives.
>
>Increase the deer archery permit percentages
>and add some Extended Archery
>Areas and Hunts to that
>program (deer units that are
>over population objectives and buck
>to doe ratios and/or elk
>units where population numbers need
>to be reduced or eliminated).
>
>
>I'll add more as I think
>of them, but for now
>I need the computer for
>more important things. (Yes, there
>are more important things in
>life than hunting.)
>
>

More important things in life than hunting?

DAMN YOU! DAMN YOU TO HELL FOR EVEN THINKING THAT!
sorry but somebody had to say it

A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun

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Gator
(15110 posts)
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Sep-10-17, 
07:41 AM (MST)
97. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I feel for us that are in that experienced old age group(senior citizen) But if you want to fill the hunting ranks when we are gone. Kids should be the first tags pulled on any draw right now period, followed by a family group draw.
Families that hunt together seem to have younger hunters that are better and safer hunters.
Grow the ranks will pay off in the long run.


"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>Life member of
>the MM green signature club.


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BOHNTR
(3385 posts)
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Sep-11-17, 
07:42 AM (MST)
99. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I too have grown tired of the points game(s) in various states. Perhaps G&F agencies can just quit issuing them? Those with many points already accumulated (like CAT) can still use them......until they are all phased out (since no additional points are accrued after draw) in a few years. After that, return to a simple random draw for all applicants. ???

BOHNTR )))---------->

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steepndeepx
(1 posts)
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Sep-12-17, 
04:53 PM (MST)
101. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-17 AT 05:07 PM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-17 AT 05:00 PM (MST)

Used to be Steepndeep on another forum. Haven't posted in forever but this is my favorite gripe so here goes.

Totally agree that the point system is broken, badly. Sort of surprised no one has sued the state just yet, there may be some good reasons where they take a lot of money with no reasonable outcome for success on top of some really shady partnerships with really questionable organizations.

Back to the points thing, here are the ways I believe they could dramatically impact the current system for the better, while still respecting the existing process. I think throwing it on its ear is another lawsuit simply because skipping straight to an all draw system would really be ignoring a lot of money and irreplaceable time already given with some promise of an outcome maybe not for one, but at least for those who would draw which means everyone would have a right in that suit.

Two things, maybe three that would really help:

1. Pay it up front
2. Combine Points - applicant preference
3. Change the 50/50 pools to more like 80/20

1. Pay up front- As stated in previous posts, this is not the meat or traditional party hunt of our grandparents' youth. This just isn't that anymore and do you own a gun? More than one? A 4 wheeler or a mountain bike? Pay a cable bill each month? Am I organized enough to pay upfront for all of my tags now? No. Does every hunter pay for a tag if they got one? A sheep, would you scrape together the money if you drew a sheep today? YES, anyone would. Google: "Don't buy stuff you can't afford SNL" for an awesome Saturday Night Live take on it.

Why this is critical- because so many people put in for people who only sort of care. Aunt millie, nephew Cade, boss Wilbur...no kidding, a boss. Who is that kind of suckup? Someone related to me a story about their friend who took their novice hunter boss on the Paunsagant...really? Know another guy who hunted his grandpa's tag for him...he got sick and just asked his grandson to hunt it for him please...or the girlfriend who hunts exactly never, but now that she pulled a Moose do you think she is going out - hell yes she is with boyfriend actual hunter Coop by her side. Why, why do we allow this? It is the modern version of party hunting. Keep in mind they have forced us in to hunting tags and that means then that the above examples are tag party hunting.

Forcing Cooper to pay for his own tags will be a stretch, no longer will he put in for aunt Millie, his soon to be ex girlfriend and certainly not his boss. (sorry Coop, names are fictitious so leave him alone - unless it is him) I can only dream right now of the affects of this type of shift- would 30% fewer applicants be too much to hope for? What if it were 50!!! It would be significant I can promise you that.

It is also totally worthy of legislation on the state holding the money, if that's what it takes. I feel like again I have to repeat this is NOT blocking people because of money as they would pay for it if they drew it. In fact, though I might benefit, it is silly that the state calls on a declined card. Why? When super bowl tickets go on sale do you get to reserve them and then wait a day to find the card you can max out? No. Google that SNL clip, buy what you can afford, put in for what you can afford, no more, no less. HUGE HUGE BENEFITS to everyone who is serious about this. It might totally be an organization tax, but who do we want running around the crowded Wasatch with a gun anyway? The organized careful ones. The others can fall back to poaching (probably another definitely unintended consequence of to much pressure on opportunity)

2. Combine points. This is my favorite, both favorites so far, but this one is a great idea as it cuts down the point creep while giving folks what they really want - let there be a market and let it decide.

Make it an option to combine points for a given year in any way you want towards your one or two species. Like...let's say you have 13 Mule deer points, 17 mountain goat and what you really wanted was an elk because you happened to draw some stupid dinner tag in another state and you got your goat. Sure you want another goat, who doesn't, but you are still at the doctor now and again trying to fix whatever you busted pursuing the goat and you kind of have it out of your system.

So what you do is you pool your points (they retain a marker for where they are from and go back to the original species if you don't draw)for an elk - the one thing you really want is that elk you have been seeing the past year or two in your field.

The result if you draw - you get the elk you wanted. 30 points have been burned. You are back to 0, but it was by choice.

The benefit for us: 30 points were burned. He would have drawn eventually or even immediately on either the goat or the mule deer, now we have met his need (assuming he drew with 30, maybe he won't) and 30 points are gone. Guess what else? He only put in for one draw pool, not 2. What does that mean? One less sucker in line for the Henry tag that year. Multiply that by thousands my friends.

Guess what else? In that scenario, left alone on the old system, eventually you would not likely let those points lapse and would kill both a goat and a mule deer. Tastes and desires and needs change a little bit in 20 years - am I right? Maybe you want to switch but can't, but guess what? If we allow some choice in that switch the net result is fewer animals on the ground per those hunters by choice. I can stomach letting you take an elk when the result is burned points, and now there are both an antelope and a deer in play for someone else. EVERYBODY WINS

And what if people do not, are against, and will not pool their points? Well, they may stay up there in their points and hopefully as we burn points they start to creep up to the top. OR maybe they get their something and change their mind. Either way this is allowing people to actually do something to affect their fate that also might seriously lower the pool of points. We can't increase opportunity, we CAN reduce the points between us and that opportunity. This is appealing to that human desire to have stuff now, the credit cards that we max out - this is like creating a credit card except when used it is gone.

Guess what else this would/could do? Let's say if folks put in this way when they combine and apply they only get one point for the species they applied for if they don't get it. What does that mean for them? They risked it on the species they wanted and they didn't draw and now they get one point. That's their choice, completely, but guess who benefits? The rest of us. One more potential point shaved out of the system. Times that again by some number in the thousands. Fantastic.

3. Change pool ratios/drop the max. I'm not sure about what would be best here, but assuming we stick with point 2 - which we should - then change both ratio and the ceiling. The ceiling will come down, but it is through the other points changes listed above, so drop the ceiling. Then also make it better to have points. Why is it 50/50 on the pools? why are we ok with someone waiting 18 years and some random fool 0? That is the dumbest thing ever. If it makes some kind of sense at least balance out the lucky fools with the waiting fools by changing the pool to a much higher ration, I woul dbe fine with 95 to 5 actually going to a higher pool amount.

How might this help? Well, it might discourage some to not even apply. So? what does that matter? It doesn't. If fewer people apply the points fall and eventually, maybe it is reasonable. One of the flaws of my reasoning is that DWR gets less money in application fees if we aren't applying for as much. Wouldn't we make up some of that same money (albeit not much) by not having as many fools get a tag at year 1 2 or 3? That's another problem that the DWR would have to solve, but it really has nothing to do with this argument. The point system itself should not be justification for salaries or whatever. The ratios should definitely be changed.

Lastly- take tag back from those crooked sportsmans groups, or put RMEF in charge or someone with some scruples. Embarrassing for the whole state and if you want to gripe about rich man vs. poor man it is to be done in that context, not the pay upfront.

Pay up front - reduces points in the pool by a lot
Combine points option - voluntarily reduces points by a lot
Change ratios - by allowing combiners and choosing with a bias towards higher points it helps a lot

Whew. That felt good for me anyway. See you in another 5 years when nothing will have changed except that it will be worse then.


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bullskin
(665 posts)
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Sep-12-17, 
05:42 PM (MST)
102. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Imagine you arrive at a restaurant but all of the tables are full. So you put your name on the waiting list and sit in the lobby. This restaurant is so popular, yet so tiny that you wait for hours, days, even years. Until finally someone who just arrived says "Hey, at this rate, I'll be an old man before I get my steak!"

Would it be right to begin admitting diners by random lottery, leaving those who have waited longest to wait even longer than many of the new arrivals? I don't think so. The better option is to go in with your eyes open, realizing that it will be a long wait--and then pick another restaurant if the one you wanted is too full to wait your turn.

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wileywapati
(1767 posts)
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Sep-12-17, 
09:29 PM (MST)
103. "RE: Time to end the point system"

No it would not.
That's the bill of goods sold.

So ya start a multi year plan to cash out the top point holders. 3 years, 5 years, whatever it takes to get rid of this special interest group.

After that every hunter has the same chance every year and we aren't managing our herds for the sake of this entitled minority.


"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16

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headshot05
(151 posts)
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Sep-12-17, 
09:54 PM (MST)
104. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-17 AT 09:55 PM (MST)

Hoss I'm 31. I have personally drawn 2 archery elk bookcliffs tags, 2 archery deer bookcliffs tags, 2 9 mile antelope tags and multiple antlerless tags. So saying the point system isn't fair for younger people is a crock. It's luck of the draw.
Yeah if I was putting in for San Juan or for the Henry's id probably never of had a tag. But to each his own, people who put in their time for those top units do deserve the tags more than people putting in their first year. Bess could have had bookcliffs tags by now but he chose to go San Juan. And you think that your kid deserves a chance at a tag the same as someone whose been putting in for 22 years? Give me a break, put em in for 9 mile archery elk and they'll draw within 2 yrs.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-13-17, 
07:23 AM (MST)
106. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>LAST EDITED ON Sep-12-17
>AT 09:55 PM (MST)

>
>Hoss I'm 31. I have personally
>drawn 2 archery elk bookcliffs
>tags, 2 archery deer bookcliffs
>tags, 2 9 mile antelope
>tags and multiple antlerless tags.
>So saying the point system
>isn't fair for younger people
>is a crock. It's luck
>of the draw.
>Yeah if I was putting in
>for San Juan or for
>the Henry's id probably never
>of had a tag. But
>to each his own, people
>who put in their time
>for those top units do
>deserve the tags more than
>people putting in their first
>year. Bess could have had
>bookcliffs tags by now but
>he chose to go San
>Juan. And you think that
>your kid deserves a chance
>at a tag the same
>as someone whose been putting
>in for 22 years? Give
>me a break, put em
>in for 9 mile archery
>elk and they'll draw within
>2 yrs.

YES. YES. YES. I notice at 31 you haven't drawn a sheep, moose, goat, bison? Why not? Why haven't you drawn a henry tag? If its "luck of the draw" like you say, then why are you afraid of an actual draw?

You realize that you "own" nothing. Look at your tax breakdown. You are STILL paying taxes that were created to fund projects long since created? You paid for a point to increase your odds in the CURRENT system. No where did it say that system was to remain in place to the end of time.

Further. At 31, the big game age requirements were dropped for you. The requirement to pay up front to enter the draws were done away with. The requirement to choose a single species was added.
The "system" that BESS is so adimate in protecting, IS NOT THE SYSTEM THAT WAS SET UP. I don't hear BESS( Ilove the guy even though we have only met on a spiritual plane), screaming about his need to front the money. I don't hear all the old timers screaming about how the younger guys should be able to acquire points for ALL species like they did.

At 31, I will assume you don't have a 12yr old(I know its utah, we start early). Is there another GOVERNMENT system, where you tell your 12yr old they have ZERO chance at simply because of their birth date? Can you make one? DO THE MATH. If you are 11, putting in this winter for 2018. YOU HAVE ZERO odds to ever draw a pile of tags. ZERO. You have only random, dumb luck. If random dumb luck is ok for them, a hunters, Americans, owners of the peoples wildlife, then random, dumb luck is ok for you and I as well.
My boy spent all summer mowing, winter shoveling. He bought a sweet henry .17he. 11% of the cost on it went to Pittman Robertson. The State of Utah draws from that money to fund wildlife. He is a STAKEHOLDER, and a paying member of our "club". As such, his, and all the other kids claim to a chance should be equal to any of us.

At 31, random dumb luck has blessed you, why does it scare you?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-13-17, 
07:39 AM (MST)
107. "RE: Time to end the point system"

My great,great......grandfather was sent to the Sanpete Valley by Brigham Young to set up a community. Canute Peterson. He was the mayor, leader, boss.

Therefore, because birth date should determine hunting rights, Canute Peterson descendents should have ALL the MANTI tags. Its only right. They were there first. All you non Petersons, you all can go find other places to hunt. Via birthright, and by way of longest standing claim, the MANTI tags are ours. Under the system in place on their arrival, after all you can NEVER change systems. No one is saying you can't hunt, but, you have no claim to equality.
Maybe go hunt ducks?

Oh wait, this isn't Europe?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-13-17, 
06:56 AM (MST)
105. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Imagine you arrive at a restaurant
>but all of the tables
>are full. So you
>put your name on the
>waiting list and sit in
>the lobby. This restaurant
>is so popular, yet so
>tiny that you wait for
>hours, days, even years.
>Until finally someone who just
>arrived says "Hey, at this
>rate, I'll be an old
>man before I get my
>steak!"
>
>Would it be right to begin
>admitting diners by random lottery,
>leaving those who have waited
>longest to wait even longer
>than many of the new
>arrivals? I don't think
>so. The better option
>is to go in with
>your eyes open, realizing that
>it will be a long
>wait--and then pick another restaurant
>if the one you wanted
>is too full to wait
>your turn.


Your equating a PRIVATELY OWNED restaraunt and it's food to PUBLICALLY OWNED wildlife.

It is not the job of government to guarantee results, it is its job to level the playing field.

If a CWMU, a PRIVATELY owned business wants to have a point system, that's their right.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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cbeard
(1346 posts)
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Sep-13-17, 
07:52 AM (MST)
108. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Deja' vu all over again.

Limited resource - high demand. Any "fix" is:

1)Not going to change the big picture unless the "fix" decimates the resource for a short term benefit. This will not happen.

2)Going to be loved by some and hated by others - depending on who benefits and who's ox is being gored.

Some of you need to realize that you aren't going to hunt premium units every year or two or three unless you have a great deal of money - no matter what the "system" is.

That said, being smart in playing the application game in multiple states will get anyone a good/great hunt somewhere every 2-3 years. And being smart and committed about OTC/general areas will get you good hunts in the years you don't draw a LE tag.

The hunting picture for big game animals is probably better than it has ever been. This "trophy" mentality so many people have these days just doesn't allow them to see it.

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elkantlers
(2051 posts)
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Sep-13-17, 
08:51 AM (MST)
109. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I didn't read all the replies so this may have already been covered.

The way the point system is set up is that the high point holders get 50% of the tags and the other 50% is random with a little advantage given depending on the amount of points a person has. To me, the point system is a good compromise. it awards those people that have put in their time and continued to accrue points as well as gives the first time applicant a chance.

The only change I would like to see is with the OIL points. I would like them to do away with species specific points and go to a OIL point that can be used for any species and would allow a person to change which OIL animal they apply for from year to year.

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wileywapati
(1767 posts)
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Sep-13-17, 
01:58 PM (MST)
111. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Y'all are buying the bait and switch this program was set up to cause.

Remember a few years back there was legislation that would've changed the law that required the rifle deer hunt to start the third Saturday of October?? This would allow for hunt dates to be shifted, split seasons to be created, and a more efficient way to get hunters on and off the mountain.

Nothing ever came of it... Why??

Well a couple thousand guys that had max points didn't want any other hunters on the mountain with them during their elk hunt they had waited 15 years to draw. They decided that ALL OF US liked the rut hunt with 90+% success rates. A couple thousand guys made that choice for almost 200,000 hunters / applicants.

Deer, this same plan would have allowed for split seasons, new hunts and a more efficient method of dispersing hunters. Well a group of dudes from The Peoples Republic Of Southern Utah got in the right ear and we have one of the most restrictive ways of distributing mule deer opportunity in the U.S. The family hunt is long gone. Unnecessarily.

No one is saying open the floodgates and go on a shooting spree. What I am saying is that there is a better way, a more efficient way but y'all saps are so damn sold on this highly restrictive high success rate style of hunting that you won't even entertain the thought.

Eventually cooloer heads will prevail, hopefully there is enough of the next generation left that still gives a chit about hunting to wise up and demand better than letting one tiny group dictate policy for the hundreds of thousands.


"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16

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bullskin
(665 posts)
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Sep-13-17, 
01:43 PM (MST)
110. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Every member of society has equal access to this public property over the course of their lifetime. That's the level playing field. But you expect equal access over the course of each hunting season--like the diner who expects equal access to the restaurant described on the very first night rather than waiting his or her turn for equal access at a later date.

I suppose either can be justified, but waiting one's own turn is an almost uniquely American, democratic notion. Americans travelers in many parts of the world are surprised to find that they can stand patiently in line for hours while a constant stream of little, old ladies of the local community cut in front of them with no concern whatsoever for rights of those waiting before them. That's privilege.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-13-17, 
08:43 PM (MST)
112. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>Every member of society has equal
>access to this public property
>over the course of their
>lifetime. That's the level playing
>field. But you expect
>equal access over the course
>of each hunting season--like the
>diner who expects equal access
>to the restaurant described on
>the very first night rather
>than waiting his or her
>turn for equal access at
>a later date.
>
>I suppose either can be justified,
>but waiting one's own turn
>is an almost uniquely American,
>democratic notion. Americans travelers
>in many parts of the
>world are surprised to find
>that they can stand patiently
>in line for hours while
>a constant stream of little,
>old ladies of the local
>community cut in front of
>them with no concern whatsoever
>for rights of those waiting
>before them. That's privilege.
>

Only if at some point in that wait is the chance at a result fair across the board. The max guys today didn't sit 50+ years. The kids today, will be lucky at just 50.

Do the math


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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elkassassin
(15927 posts)
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Sep-13-17, 
08:49 PM (MST)
113. "RE: Time to end the point system"


So ww?

You wanna Lower Age Objectives down to MOTL's?


Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo

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cbeard
(1346 posts)
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Sep-13-17, 
08:54 PM (MST)
114. "RE: Time to end the point system"

It's not the older high-point holders' fault that application #s have quadrupled since they started accumulating points. So why punish them?


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wileywapati
(1767 posts)
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Sep-14-17, 
05:40 AM (MST)
117. "RE: Time to end the point system"

MOTL. Damn had forgotten about wet lips.

Sure.


"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16

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elkassassin
(15927 posts)
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Sep-14-17, 
05:52 AM (MST)
118. "RE: Time to end the point system"

You Won't/Don't Need an LE Tag for that!

>MOTL. Damn had forgotten about wet
>lips.
>
>Sure.
>
>
>
>
>"If the DWR was just doing
>its job, and
>wildlife and hunting were the actual
>focus,
>none of this process would even
>matter.
>But that is not the focus
>or the goal in any
>
>of this. The current DWR regime,
>and
>SFW were born out of wildlife
>declines,
>and are currently operated and funded
>
>under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
>
>tags would not even be worth
>anything if
>the focus was where it was
>supposed to
>be, and wildlife and tags were
>plentiful.
>But under the current business model,
>
>that is how the money and
>power is
>generated. It is generated through the
>
>rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
>resource. A resource that is supposed
>to
>be being beneficially managed for the
>
>masses that own that resource, ie.
>US.
>The problem is obvious, hedging is
>not a
>long term sustainable strategy, and
>others have to lose, for some
>to win. In
>this case it is us, the
>many, and our
>resources, that are being forced to
>lose,
>because there is a minority who's
>power
>and money is derived from our
>loses."
>
>LONETREE 3/15/16


Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo

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bullskin
(665 posts)
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Sep-13-17, 
11:45 PM (MST)
115. "RE: Time to end the point system"

"Only if at some point in that wait is the chance at a result fair across the board. The max guys today didn't sit 50+ years."

True. As I said, one can justify either approach. What cannot be justified is changing back and forth. To change now also means that there will be people who have not waited getting tags that those who did wait will not. It is the same problem, with the shoe on the other foot.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-14-17, 
07:19 AM (MST)
120. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>"Only if at some point in
>that wait is the chance
>at a result fair across
>the board. The max guys
>today didn't sit 50+ years."
>
>
>True. As I said, one
>can justify either approach.
>What cannot be justified is
>changing back and forth.
>To change now also means
>that there will be people
>who have not waited getting
>tags that those who did
>wait will not. It
>is the same problem, with
>the shoe on the other
>foot.

No, it simply means everyone has the same shoe. Not sure how older guys get "punished"? They put in, didn't draw. Most likely would do the same without a points system. I would support a $10 additional fee per app to offset points not being bought.

Or, are you trying to sell that Idaho and Nevada are mean to older folks?

If you ACTUALLY DO THE MATH, on the oil, and handful of others, even max point holders aren't guaranteed anything. The system broke. It hasn't worked for years, is just getting worse.

I'm sure none of you pro point guys got divorced, changed jobs, or bought new trucks in the last 25yrs. I mean you would never dream of getting rid of something that didn't work.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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bullskin
(665 posts)
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Sep-15-17, 
03:11 PM (MST)
124. "RE: Time to end the point system"

No, it is not the same shoe, unless you ignore the fact that many have already been worn for twenty years, or more.

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bullskin
(665 posts)
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Sep-28-17, 
02:02 PM (MST)
157. "RE: Time to end the point system"

And the kids today, if given immediate, equal access, would not have waited twenty years like those before them...

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bullskin
(665 posts)
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Sep-13-17, 
11:56 PM (MST)
116. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Solution? Provide more trophy hunting opportunities within all units by reducing hunter success rate. Require less effective weapons, restrict road access and ATVs, avoid hunting during the rut, prohibit game cameras, and close access during the season to those without tags. Sounds severe, I know, but these steps would enable Game Departments to increase hunting opportunity without impacting game herds. There will be those who don't like it. They want to hunt every year, using every new toy in the arsenal, and bag an easy trophy buck. Well, we can't have it both ways...

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cbeard
(1346 posts)
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Sep-14-17, 
06:50 AM (MST)
119. "RE: Time to end the point system"

The "bonus point" system used by most states is the best approach. Gives everyone a chance but those who have more time/money invested a better chance.

The pure random draw is the second best approach.

Thankfully, the few states like WY with pure PP system also allocate a healthy (25%) number of tags to the random draw.

There is no real "solution" that will please everyone. Again, limited resource and high demand.

With a few exceptions, the system ain't broke. In fact, it's about as good as it can be. Utah has some issue unique to it that need addressing. But that's another topic.

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Utah400Elk
(949 posts)
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Sep-14-17, 
10:50 AM (MST)
121. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Please don't shoot the messenger...But this is my thought.

What about a change to the system. People can buy a general season tag OR apply for LE/OIL.

They can build points for an LE/OIL hunt. However, if they change their minds and get a general season tag they loose those points.

If you want to wait for a LE/OIL hunt, great. You can sit on the sidelines. If you want to hunt every year, great its available but you are not building points for LE/OIL.

It comes down to the fact that you can't have your cake and eat it too.

I think this would lower the demand for the OTC hunts (possibly increase quality) and limit the number of people in the point game.

It manages for both extremes. People wanting the 90% success on trophy animals can wait for their chance and People wanting to hunt every year get what they want.

IMO the real problem is the people who want both! For myself, I try and maximize my opportunity by applying for multiple states. I also limit my hunt choices to maximize my chances of drawing.

Some states I apply for premium LE (AZ unit 9 elk hunt was amazing) and in other I put in for GS tag (Wyoming General season elk).

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wstrntines
(818 posts)
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Sep-14-17, 
12:14 PM (MST)
122. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-14-17 AT 12:14 PM (MST)

Here's my thoughts do it similar to nevada and maybe some split seasons similar to colorado. Nevada has about 17,500 elk according to the numbers I just looked at give or take some if you can draw a tag you can do well. Utah has 68,000 according to numbers I looked at and we have alot more elk country and elk and we you can kill some great bulls here. We also have more people but I still think we can make some positive changes. So here's my solution.

1. You want to hunt archery you can hunt in the rut sept. 1st to sept. 30th. give out more tags success rates are much lower than firearm hunts. Maybe even split it into 2 archery hunts like new mexico. the change in dates would eliminate the LE hunters who didn't tag out hunting the extended archery. And if you don't want to change that make them pay $50 to hunt the extended.

2. Muzzy October 1st season 1- oct 11 2nd season oct. 15th - oct. 26th. Give out a few more tags to muzzy hunters

3. Rifle you hunt late no F##kin early tags toss them in the trash. Split em into two late hunts if you want a rifle bull than your 1000 yd out of the box gun can wait until the bulls have long finished breeding. nov. 1st to nov 30 th and 2nd season december 1st to december 30th.

4. Go in and totally overhaul the CWMU if you buy tags you lose pts. And if you buy tags you can buy a LE tag the next year. Make the CWMU land owners give a higher % of tags to the public and make them give out desirable dates to the public like they do to the paying hunters. There are very few CWMU units I would consider trying. I think the DNR had good intentions when they started the program but I think the land owners have abused it. And you should never be hosed because you can't afford a guide.

5. We could make some archery only units Wasatch, and nebo.

6. We could dump the point system completely and do like new mexico and idaho.

7. Create some youth limited entry hunts for elk.

For Deer

I'd like to see us try 1st 2nd 3rd and 4th season style like colorado. I had heard on one of the wildlife board meetings they were looking to approve a 2nd rifle season for deer. Not sure what the status is on that. Those are some thoughts. Maybe a youth LE hunt for the pauns and henries for deer.

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quest
(1967 posts)
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Sep-15-17, 
09:38 AM (MST)
123. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I don't see the point system going anywhere. What would be nice if they allowed you brake your points up to apply for lesser units.

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Darkcloud
(136 posts)
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Sep-17-17, 
07:50 AM (MST)
125. "RE: Time to end the point system"

With a 50/50 split, it's the same as having a random draw system. You still have a chance! Going to a random draw solves nothing. Would it be fair if someone drew a tag every year in a random while other guys wait 20, it's the same thing. At least with points you have options, stop being so set on one specific unit if you want a tag. Study the draw odds, and your odds will go up. I have drawn 2 antelope rifle tags, 1 archery elk, 1 rifle elk, 1 mountain goat, and 1 rifle Henry mountain deer tag. The only one I had max points on was the mountain goat. I study the draw odds and move to units that have better odds. I got lucky on a "RANDOM" Henry mountains tag (5 points). I only put in for it, thinking I would have a "chance" but still earn a point for another year. ( I had other plans for that year)
My point is that you still have a chance with the current system, but your points can be used to go hunting. YOU CHOOSE TO WAIT 20 PLUS YEARS TO HUNT 1TAG.

If the waiting game is killing you, move to a lesser unit, if you have to hunt San Juan or the Henries, stand in line. We stand in lines everywhere, you choose how long you want to stand in line.
You can choose to wait 45 minutes at Texas Roadhouse or go across the street to McDonald's. It's the same thing with the draws. The problem with the hunting world, is everybody is worried about the inches. It amazes me that people will wait years longer to say they shot a deer that scores 5 inches bigger. If it means that much too you, stand in line and stop complaining

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ironhead
(578 posts)
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Sep-17-17, 
10:03 AM (MST)
126. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I don't know if this has been posted or not, I didn't go back and read every post.
What about a draw where you have to choose LE or GS but not both. The trophy hunters can put in for the LE tags and the meat hunters can put in for the GS draws. This should improve the draw odds of both draws by removing competition in both draws.
The only way to increase draw odds is to add tags or reduce the number of applicants.
If you go to a process with no points there will be people that draw 3 tags in 5 years and others that draw 0 tags in 5 years. The people with 0 tags in 5 years will be wanting a point system asap and we will be right back in the same boat.

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fin little
(641 posts)
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Sep-17-17, 
03:19 PM (MST)
127. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I agree with Darkcloud , I remember the draw before bonus points. It caused me to wait 15 years to draw a Pauns tag while others drew several Pauns tags during the same time frame. After that I put in for hunts I could draw and went hunting. 3 antelope tags , 2 elk tags and another random Pauns tag since 2000. 50/50 is a good compromise IMO. I don't like waiting periods

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-17-17, 
04:06 PM (MST)
128. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Last I checked the public didn't own the steak at Texas roadhouse. Curious. Do you get to front of line at DMV via birth year? Another guy, draws Henry tag with 5 points, admits its dumb luck, then rails against a dumb luck random draw? Did you turn your tag in so a max guy could have it? Why not, he was waiting longer than you, that would be fair. You guys keep confusing fairness of opportunity with fairness of results. Its not gov job to level results. Or do you believe the Powerball winner should only be someone who has bought a ticket in every draw. Guys keep deflecting. Sure there are other LE units. Which sheep or moose unit are you strategizing to draw? You will not keep young guys interested in the viability of species like moose or sheep, if the door is shut on them. And more and more, especially in Utah where we seem to be fasttracking becoming Texas west, the door is shut. Bad enough for 12yr olds now. Those kids born this year, what are we leaving for them?

Or is our current generation the one that says piss on the next? Which would make ours the first to do so, all the previous doing what was best for hunting as a whole, not what's was best for "me".

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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Darkcloud
(136 posts)
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Sep-17-17, 
05:00 PM (MST)
129. "RE: Time to end the point system"

You missed my point. There is opportunity for both right now. Max point holders and a random. If it wasn't for the random, I never would have drawn. If it wasn't for the point system, the max point holders might not have drawn that year.

When there was no point system a friend of the family drew 2 OIL tags and 1 deer and 1 antelope in a 6 year period, while WE as a family drew nothing. Seems like that's not fair to the rest of us.

Please tell me why a random would be so much better for all. We all have a chance with the way it is right now. If guys want to wait 20 plus years for 1 tag, that's their choice.
Drawing tags with the current system is not all dumb luck. If you read up on New Mexico with a no points program, you will find out the odds suck, and you don't have a clue when you will draw again.

For what it's worth, I have one point for elk, and will draw an elk tag within 5 more years with the current program. I like to go hunting, not sit and worry about why I can't have a better chance at a 20 year tag.
The best advice I can give you, apply for what you want to hunt, not where you want to.

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cbeard
(1346 posts)
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Sep-17-17, 
05:07 PM (MST)
130. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-17-17 AT 05:12 PM (MST)

hossblur people see the point you are trying to make. Many have spent a great deal of time with it, and making points of their own.

Yet you remain doubled-down and dismissive, as if others are simply stupid and you are the only one deserving of a point of view. This is what makes forum discussions hard.

Your point is your opinion. Fine. But changing to random draws in all states is not "The Answer". It would not be fair to all. It would not make everything moonlight and roses. See dozens of above explanations for why.

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txhunter58
(5730 posts)
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Sep-17-17, 
05:26 PM (MST)
131. "RE: Time to end the point system"

If talking about Utah LE tags, if nothing else changed, just do away with points, your odds of drawing would go from say 10% now with your points, to 0.1% The problem is very limited tags, not the points. Rail away, but you can't deny the math. Only way to increase the odds of drawing before we die is to increase the numbers of tags. That is a separate discussion.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-17-17, 
09:01 PM (MST)
132. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>You missed my point. There
>is opportunity for both right
>now. Max point holders
>and a random. If
>it wasn't for the random,
>I never would have drawn.
> If it wasn't for
>the point system, the max
>point holders might not have
>drawn that year.
>
>When there was no point system
>a friend of the family
>drew 2 OIL tags and
>1 deer and 1 antelope
>in a 6 year period,
>while WE as a family
>drew nothing. Seems like
>that's not fair to the
>rest of us.
>
>Please tell me why a random
>would be so much better
>for all. We all
>have a chance with the
>way it is right now.
>If guys want to wait
>20 plus years for 1
>tag, that's their choice.
>Drawing tags with the current system
>is not all dumb luck.
> If you read up
>on New Mexico with a
>no points program, you will
>find out the odds suck,
>and you don't have a
>clue when you will draw
>again.
>
>For what it's worth, I have
>one point for elk, and
>will draw an elk tag
>within 5 more years with
>the current program. I
>like to go hunting, not
>sit and worry about why
>I can't have a better
>chance at a 20 year
>tag.
>The best advice I can give
>you, apply for what you
>want to hunt, not where
>you want to.

Its fair on that everyone in your family had identical chances to draw. What we have now, the dwr has chosen winners and losers simply by the year u were born.

With the oil tags, there will never be enough animals to meet demand. We are a week into this and not one guy has shown how the current system is beneficial to new hunters. They are great at how its good for them. Btw, the other points states, are in the same boat. Ya, new Mexico odds suck, but at least they suck fairly for new and old.

If someone can show me how, an 11yr old putting in next winter, is benefited by the points system for sheep, moose, bison, the premium deer and elk units, ill be glad to retract this whole thread. Fact is, after 25 yrs they would still be at 0%. For them, dumb luck is equal.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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newguy
(74 posts)
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Sep-17-17, 
09:36 PM (MST)
133. "RE: Time to end the point system"

If you want to know how an eleven year old can get a sheep tag it is simple. Start aplying evey year and live a long life and they will get one, as well as a Henry Mountain deer tag if they chose to dedicate there points just to that. They have a much better chance than I do, but trust me you won't hear me ##### about it.

Mark

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-17-17, 
10:24 PM (MST)
134. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>If you want to know how
>an eleven year old can
>get a sheep tag it
>is simple. Start aplying
>evey year and live a
>long life and they will
>get one, as well as
>a Henry Mountain deer tag
>if they chose to dedicate
>there points just to that.
>They have a much better
>chance than I do, but
>trust me you won't hear
>me ##### about it.
>
>Mark

Do the math. Your wrong.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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pufftuffly
(307 posts)
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Sep-18-17, 
06:02 PM (MST)
137. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>If you want to know how
>an eleven year old can
>get a sheep tag it
>is simple. Start aplying
>evey year and live a
>long life and they will
>get one, as well as
>a Henry Mountain deer tag
>if they chose to dedicate
>there points just to that.
>They have a much better
>chance than I do, but
>trust me you won't hear
>me ##### about it.
>
>Mark


Hi my name is Mark Jr. I'm 87 years old and I finally drew my Utah sheep tag, not looking for anyone's honeyhole but if someone can point me In the right direction I'd appreciate it.

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elkantlers
(2051 posts)
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Sep-17-17, 
10:52 PM (MST)
135. "RE: Time to end the point system"


>If someone can show me how,
>an 11yr old putting in
>next winter, is benefited by
>the points system for sheep,
>moose, bison, the premium deer
>and elk units, ill be
>glad to retract this whole
>thread.

The 11yr old can benefit from the points system by being added as a mentor to Grandpa's tag who happened to have enough points to be guaranteed a tag. Or, Grandpa splits his 22 points with the 11yo and they both get Late Manti elk tags.

I know it's the not the answer you were wanting, But it is a benefit.

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cbeard
(1346 posts)
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Sep-18-17, 
07:10 AM (MST)
136. "RE: Time to end the point system"

All the states but one or two have a bonus points system. An 11 year old is benefited from in that system just like everyone else - the earlier they start applying, the more points they accumulate, the better chance they have to draw.

The states that have preference points also have liberal tags allocated in a random draw. Again, the 11 year old benefits like everyone else - a chance to draw while at the same time building up points.

I have applied for a sheep tag in every state that has one for 17 years now. Conservatively, I have invested about $20,000 into those states' G&F departments budgets. I don't begrudge that, but I would begrudge them wiping out my investment and changing the game on me in midstream by taking away all my points. You are just saying "Too bad for you" in order give an 11 year old a minuscule chance to draw a premium tag he/she probably doesn't even attach any more significance to than a tag he/she can actually draw. And actually get to go hunt rather just play the points game.

I will not draw a sheep tag in my lifetime in most of those states. I accept that, but am willing to keep investing for a chance every year.

Your mythical 11 year old needs to accept that they may not draw sheep, moose, bison, or premium elk/deer units in their lifetime either. Just like everyone else does.

You have a hammer "solution" that in actuality solves nothing unless and until you can conjure up more sheep, moose, bison, 375 elk and 190 mule deer.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-18-17, 
07:02 PM (MST)
138. "RE: Time to end the point system"

So the answer is the mentor system? So which one of "grandpas" 6 grandsons get his points?

Investment? You followed the system, which like I said in Utah was changed twice. Still haven't heard anyone begrudging not paying up front yet.

If we were talking straight oil, fine. Its expanded past that. And. That kid born today, it will be wayyy worse.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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dillon
(1295 posts)
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Sep-18-17, 
07:45 PM (MST)
139. "RE: Time to end the point system"

In fifth grade my teacher wrote, "life is not fair" on the white board and he never erased it all year.

There is no perfect answer to how to allocate big game permits. I currently have 16 elk and 14 mountain goat points in Utah that I would love to burn, but so far I have been unlucky with all my applications. I don't want my years of waiting to be washed away, but I also want my younger family members to be able to hunt trophy animals someday. I love the hunter mentor program in Utah.

Having lived in Utah most of my life and in Nevada and Wyoming more recently I have decided that I like the Wyoming system the most, but maybe it would not work for Utah or other states.

No matter what path Utah DWR takes in the coming years life will not be fair to someone.

Just my thoughts, not trying to attack anyone else's.

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elkassassin
(15927 posts)
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Sep-18-17, 
08:23 PM (MST)
140. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LMAO hoss!

"""I'm sure none of you pro point guys got divorced, changed jobs, or bought new trucks in the last 25yrs. I mean you would never dream of getting rid of something that didn't work."""

Took Me 20 years to save enough Money to Buy a New Truck!

Hint:

Took me less time to get a New Truck Versus get an LE Elk Tag!

By the Time I get a Tag,200" Bulls should be the Cream of the Crop!

Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo

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Loner
(66 posts)
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Sep-18-17, 
08:29 PM (MST)
141. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I just gave Wyoming 90 bucks to not hunt elk nor deer there this year. I also paid Colorado for points this year. States that have figured out that cash cow will not give it up.

Have to say I am a fan of your writing Hossblur . The creative writing you did about an Antelope Island deer hunt a few years ago was your high water mark.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-18-17, 
09:09 PM (MST)
142. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>I just gave Wyoming 90 bucks
>to not hunt elk nor
>deer there this year.
>I also paid Colorado for
>points this year. States
>that have figured out that
>cash cow will not give
>it up.
>
>Have to say I am a
>fan of your writing Hossblur
>. The creative writing
>you did about an Antelope
>Island deer hunt a few
>years ago was your high
>water mark.

You should check out Penthouse, my stuff in forum is legendary!

I find it interesting how we live in the shadow of guys who set up everything we have today, but our answer is #!$@ those little turds!


But, ill let u guys get back to chastising flat brimmers for being the me first, participation trophy generation.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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elkassassin
(15927 posts)
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Sep-18-17, 
09:23 PM (MST)
143. "RE: Time to end the point system"


Hey hoss?

You Wear a FLATTY?

Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-18-17, 
09:54 PM (MST)
144. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Ain't anything on me flat!

Except my azz, but That's bad genes.

And I've noticed other flat things in the mornings that weren't always that way!

Bess, now I'm confused

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-18-17, 
09:54 PM (MST)
145. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>>I just gave Wyoming 90 bucks
>>to not hunt elk nor
>>deer there this year.
>>I also paid Colorado for
>>points this year. States
>>that have figured out that
>>cash cow will not give
>>it up.
>>
>>Have to say I am a
>>fan of your writing Hossblur
>>. The creative writing
>>you did about an Antelope
>>Island deer hunt a few
>>years ago was your high
>>water mark.
>
>You should check out Penthouse, my
>stuff in forum is legendary!
>
>
>I find it interesting how we
>live in the shadow of
>guys who set up everything
>we have today, but our
>answer is #!$@ those little
>turds!
>
>
>But, ill let u guys get
>back to chastising flat brimmers
>for being the me first,
>participation trophy generation.
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Hoss you cry like a f'n snowflake. Nobody is saying &*^% those little turds. They have much more opportunity than any of us older folks do. Guys my age weren't hunting deer at 12 or even 14. There were no youth only tags back then. We couldn't even hunt small game until 12.

Your first post you talk about sitting around the campfire with your kids. You should have stopped there you lucky little baz#%^d. I never even had the opportunity to sit around the campfire with my dad. LIFE'S NOT FAIR, BOO F(&&^ING HOO! My entire hunting career with my dad was half a day. Do I cry IT ISN'T FAIR!? No. Life isn't fair and your daddy should have taught you that. Next time you are around the campfire with your kids, be sure and teach them the concept about the fairness of life. There are many more opportunities for kids to hunt than ever before. Suck it up, be a man and focus on the positive things because there is no way to fix this supply and demand situation.

I will never be able to hunt Tigers in India or Tasmanian Tigers. Never be able to import a polar bear and will likely never be able to hunt African Lion unless I make a ton of money in the next few years. I will never be able to hunt Passenger pigeons or shoot Bison by the thousands. Do I begrudge the old-timers that were able to do this? No, my hat is off to those who were able to do those things.

You should be ashamed of the entitlement attitude you are displaying here.


A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun

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Deerlove
(4134 posts)
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Sep-19-17, 
10:23 AM (MST)
146. "RE: Time to end the point system"

Of course states dont want to give up the $, that ok. Going back to 73s post about more tags and primitive weapons and season changes are the best options.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-19-17, 
06:38 PM (MST)
147. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>>>I just gave Wyoming 90 bucks
>>>to not hunt elk nor
>>>deer there this year.
>>>I also paid Colorado for
>>>points this year. States
>>>that have figured out that
>>>cash cow will not give
>>>it up.
>>>
>>>Have to say I am a
>>>fan of your writing Hossblur
>>>. The creative writing
>>>you did about an Antelope
>>>Island deer hunt a few
>>>years ago was your high
>>>water mark.
>>
>>You should check out Penthouse, my
>>stuff in forum is legendary!
>>
>>
>>I find it interesting how we
>>live in the shadow of
>>guys who set up everything
>>we have today, but our
>>answer is #!$@ those little
>>turds!
>>
>>
>>But, ill let u guys get
>>back to chastising flat brimmers
>>for being the me first,
>>participation trophy generation.
>>
>>
>>"The only thing that stops a
>>bad guy with a gun
>>is a good guy with
>>a gun"
>
>Hoss you cry like a f'n
>snowflake. Nobody is saying &*^%
>those little turds. They have
>much more opportunity than any
>of us older folks do.
>Guys my age weren't hunting
>deer at 12 or even
>14. There were no youth
>only tags back then. We
>couldn't even hunt small game
>until 12.
>
>Your first post you talk about
>sitting around the campfire with
>your kids. You should have
>stopped there you lucky little
>baz#%^d. I never even had
>the opportunity to sit around
>the campfire with my dad.
>LIFE'S NOT FAIR, BOO F(&&^ING
>HOO! My entire hunting career
>with my dad was half
>a day. Do I cry
>IT ISN'T FAIR!? No. Life
>isn't fair and your daddy
>should have taught you that.
>Next time you are around
>the campfire with your kids,
>be sure and teach them
>the concept about the fairness
>of life. There are many
>more opportunities for kids to
>hunt than ever before. Suck
>it up, be a man
>and focus on the positive
>things because there is no
>way to fix this supply
>and demand situation.
>
>I will never be able to
>hunt Tigers in India or
>Tasmanian Tigers. Never be able
>to import a polar bear
>and will likely never be
>able to hunt African Lion
>unless I make a ton
>of money in the next
>few years. I will never
>be able to hunt Passenger
>pigeons or shoot Bison by
>the thousands. Do I begrudge
>the old-timers that were able
>to do this? No, my
>hat is off to those
>who were able to do
>those things.
>
>You should be ashamed of the
>entitlement attitude you are displaying
>here.
>
>
>A BULLET TRAIN! The only other
>thing besides a good guy
>with a gun, that will
>stop a bad guy with
>a gun

Must have hit a nerve huh? To be clear, you big mouth, you had 250,000 tags, no draw, hunt 3 seasons state wide. So check your self. My kids never met my dad, he's been dead 14 years, my oldest is 11. Funny you say your not about #%!$ the kids, then you write 3 paragraphs saying /$×& the kids.

You have elk because older guys cared about generations to come. Same as EVERY ANIMAL YOU HUNT. As well as 99% of the public land you hunt. "I deserve tags because I'm older" IS THE DEFINITION OF ENTITLEMENT. Like I said, you loved the changes to the system that benefited YOU, but now whine like a 2 yr old when its pointed out.

So take it for what its worth you disrespectful loud mouth.

Feel free to stop by whenever you build up the courage, or sit in front of your keyboard and scare everyone.

BTW, my tag line was a quote from Wayne LaPierre, so it really tore me up when you ripped my "original" line.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-19-17, 
08:34 PM (MST)
148. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>>>>I just gave Wyoming 90 bucks
>>>>to not hunt elk nor
>>>>deer there this year.
>>>>I also paid Colorado for
>>>>points this year. States
>>>>that have figured out that
>>>>cash cow will not give
>>>>it up.
>>>>
>>>>Have to say I am a
>>>>fan of your writing Hossblur
>>>>. The creative writing
>>>>you did about an Antelope
>>>>Island deer hunt a few
>>>>years ago was your high
>>>>water mark.
>>>
>>>You should check out Penthouse, my
>>>stuff in forum is legendary!
>>>
>>>
>>>I find it interesting how we
>>>live in the shadow of
>>>guys who set up everything
>>>we have today, but our
>>>answer is #!$@ those little
>>>turds!
>>>
>>>
>>>But, ill let u guys get
>>>back to chastising flat brimmers
>>>for being the me first,
>>>participation trophy generation.
>>>
>>>
>>>"The only thing that stops a
>>>bad guy with a gun
>>>is a good guy with
>>>a gun"
>>
>>Hoss you cry like a f'n
>>snowflake. Nobody is saying &*^%
>>those little turds. They have
>>much more opportunity than any
>>of us older folks do.
>>Guys my age weren't hunting
>>deer at 12 or even
>>14. There were no youth
>>only tags back then. We
>>couldn't even hunt small game
>>until 12.
>>
>>Your first post you talk about
>>sitting around the campfire with
>>your kids. You should have
>>stopped there you lucky little
>>baz#%^d. I never even had
>>the opportunity to sit around
>>the campfire with my dad.
>>LIFE'S NOT FAIR, BOO F(&&^ING
>>HOO! My entire hunting career
>>with my dad was half
>>a day. Do I cry
>>IT ISN'T FAIR!? No. Life
>>isn't fair and your daddy
>>should have taught you that.
>>Next time you are around
>>the campfire with your kids,
>>be sure and teach them
>>the concept about the fairness
>>of life. There are many
>>more opportunities for kids to
>>hunt than ever before. Suck
>>it up, be a man
>>and focus on the positive
>>things because there is no
>>way to fix this supply
>>and demand situation.
>>
>>I will never be able to
>>hunt Tigers in India or
>>Tasmanian Tigers. Never be able
>>to import a polar bear
>>and will likely never be
>>able to hunt African Lion
>>unless I make a ton
>>of money in the next
>>few years. I will never
>>be able to hunt Passenger
>>pigeons or shoot Bison by
>>the thousands. Do I begrudge
>>the old-timers that were able
>>to do this? No, my
>>hat is off to those
>>who were able to do
>>those things.
>>
>>You should be ashamed of the
>>entitlement attitude you are displaying
>>here.
>>
>>
>>A BULLET TRAIN! The only other
>>thing besides a good guy
>>with a gun, that will
>>stop a bad guy with
>>a gun
>
>Must have hit a nerve huh?
> To be clear, you
>big mouth, you had 250,000
>tags, no draw, hunt 3
>seasons state wide. So
>check your self. My
>kids never met my dad,
>he's been dead 14 years,
>my oldest is 11.
>Funny you say your not
>about #%!$ the kids, then
>you write 3 paragraphs saying
>/$×& the kids.
>
>You have elk because older guys
>cared about generations to come.
> Same as EVERY ANIMAL
>YOU HUNT. As well as
>99% of the public land
>you hunt. "I deserve
>tags because I'm older" IS
>THE DEFINITION OF ENTITLEMENT.
>Like I said, you loved
>the changes to the system
>that benefited YOU, but now
>whine like a 2 yr
>old when its pointed out.
>
>
>So take it for what its
>worth you disrespectful loud mouth.
>
>
>Feel free to stop by whenever
>you build up the courage,
>or sit in front of
>your keyboard and scare everyone.
>
>
>BTW, my tag line was a
>quote from Wayne LaPierre, so
>it really tore me up
>when you ripped my "original"
>line.
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Hoss' Ass. You are just full of assumptions aren't you. Where did I say I loved the changes? Sorry but I and many others were at the meetings fighting the fish and game when they rammed the point system down our throats. I still have the handouts from that meeting and they guaranteed everyone would draw a limited elk tag within 5 years. Does anybody else remember that line they tried to sell us?

I won't get into details here because you have them in my response to your pm. You also have my name and number. I told you how to find me for any reason you like.

YOU, YOUR KIDS, NEPHEWS AND OTHER FAMILY MEMBERS DON'T GET TO CUT IN FRONT OF THE LINE BECAUSE YOUR POOR OLE DADDY DIED! MOST EVERYONE HERE HAS A STORY EQUAL TO OR WORSE THAN YOURS. SORRY DUDE, LIFE ISN'T FAIR! I WATCHED MY PARENTS GET MURDERED WHEN I WAS NINE. DO I GET TO GO TO THE FRONT OF THE LINE BECAUSE MY 5 KIDS NEVER GOT TO HUNT WITH THEIR GRANDPA? No I don't, and only an entitlement mentality would expect or even mention that.
A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-19-17, 
09:17 PM (MST)
149. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I am withdrawing my previous post about bob.

After exchanging F U on IM seems I found a guy I respect.

Hope you guys enjoyed our dust up, but I'm done, he's a stand up guy.

That means I got more time for BESS now!😀


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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deadibob
(1768 posts)
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Sep-19-17, 
09:55 PM (MST)
150. "RE: Time to end the point system"

>I am withdrawing my previous post
>about bob.
>
>After exchanging F U on IM
>seems I found a guy
>I respect.
>
>Hope you guys enjoyed our dust
>up, but I'm done, he's
>a stand up guy.
>
>That means I got more time
>for BESS now!😀
>
>
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Back at ya. I'll get rid of the bullet train too
A BULLET TRAIN! The only other thing besides a good guy with a gun, that will stop a bad guy with a gun

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Elkslayer2015
(68 posts)
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Sep-20-17, 
10:34 AM (MST)
151. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-20-17 AT 10:38 AM (MST)

I agree the point system needs a lot of work not get rid of it look at the antelope island draw results what a flipping joke a person drew that tag with 0 points max point was 21 it's a joke and we all know this and the season dates are a joke also that really needs fixed.

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elkantlers
(2051 posts)
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Sep-20-17, 
12:50 PM (MST)
152. "RE: Time to end the point system"


>I agree the point system needs
>a lot of work not
>get rid of it look
>at the antelope island draw
>results what a flipping joke
>a person drew that tag
>with 0 points max point
>was 21 it's a joke
>and we all know this
>and the season dates are
>a joke also that really
>needs fixed.


Isn't this exactly what Hoss is pushing for? No points drawing. lol

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Elkslayer2015
(68 posts)
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Sep-20-17, 
02:32 PM (MST)
153. "RE: Time to end the point system"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-20-17 AT 02:38 PM (MST)

sorry read my post it needs work we need to have a points system to many people have a lot to loose now if everyone didn't care about there points yeah get rid of it but we all know there is a lot of people with 15 or more points that won't just piss them away

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txhunter58
(5730 posts)
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Sep-20-17, 
03:41 PM (MST)
154. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I have a less "pipe dream" request. I just want them to stop letting us NRs put in for any/all hunts. I was up to about 10% odds on an elk tag I wanted when they opened it up to everyone for all species and my odds dropped to about 2%.

Fact: NR can only apply for ONE hunt. Yes, they let us put in for more than one, but if you actually get picked on a hunt, you are out of the lottery for any other hunts. So in reality, we get to apply for just one tag, we just don't know which one that might be.

If you are mainly trying to draw one species in your lifetime (like I am: elk), your Odds are much worse under the current system. Same is true if you are mainly a deer hunter.

Why can't they let everyone apply for points (so the state still gets their money), but just let us only apply for one tag. Residents can only apply for one species for the reasons I mentioned above and they don't want even worse odds.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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Elkslayer2015
(68 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
02:00 PM (MST)
155. "RE: Time to end the point system"

I agree txhunter58 if you do it for one they need to do for all

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theox
(2162 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
05:28 PM (MST)
156. "RE: Time to end the point system"

k first off its not gonna happen. there is always a chance to draw right now and there just isnt enough tags. but one thing you can do is put aside 1000$ every year and after 10-15 years you have the money to buy a once in a lifetime elk tag in many areas. some areas you maybe able to pull off a lnadowner/cwmu etc twice. so while it sucks waiting in line and a few get lucky every year random tags are less chance at drawin every year. Utah has a great point system and you can get lucky .... point is supplky and demand isnt going anywhere anytime soon. there really isnt a much better option. colorado sucks because the younger gen might as well not even apply for hard to draw tags cause they literally wont ever draw them. Utah you actually have a chance.. i drew moose with 1 pt. Im lucky sob and i cherished that hunt and still do!

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fullthrottle
(484 posts)
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Sep-28-17, 
04:50 PM (MST)
158. "RE: Time to end the point system"

^^^well said^^^ point systems like Utah, Wyoming, Nevada are great and shouldn't go anywhere. Lucky still can get lucky and the loyal point investors get something for there diligence. What's not fair about that. Everyone gets something they want, a points system and a random system all in one.

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