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CWD, thoughts?

 
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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
07:03 AM (MST)
"CWD, thoughts?"

I was listening to Meateater podcast the other day. Steve had on a scientist from USGS whose speciality is wildlife disease. Super fascinating and scary subject.

I hunt in Utah so its not been a hot topic but as my midgets are hitting 12 soon we are branching out next year.

So. Do you guys that hunt Col., Wyoming, etc test your critters?

If you got back a positive would you still eat it?

I have a degree in Microbiolgy(moms been real proud how I didn't use it), so how its spread, what it does part was pretty cool.


Just curious what some of u all think.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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  Table of Contents  

 Subject   Author   Message Date   ID 
 RE: CWD, thoug...  Tristate      Sep-21-17   1 
 RE: CWD, thoug...  stillhunter...      Sep-21-17   2 
  RE: CWD, thoug...  Tikka      Sep-21-17   3 
   RE: CWD, thoug...  hossblur      Sep-21-17   4 
    RE: CWD, thoug...  DW      Sep-21-17   5 
     RE: CWD, thoug...  txhunter58      Sep-21-17   6 
      RE: CWD, thoug...  Tristate      Sep-21-17   7 
       RE: CWD, thoug...  txhunter58      Sep-21-17   8 
        RE: CWD, thoug...  stillhunter...      Sep-21-17   9 
         RE: CWD, thoug...  txhunter58      Sep-21-17   10 
          RE: CWD, thoug...  stillhunter...      Sep-21-17   11 
           RE: CWD, thoug...  Tristate      Sep-21-17   12 
            RE: CWD, thoug...  hossblur      Sep-21-17   13 
             RE: CWD, thoug...  txhunter58      Sep-21-17   14 
              RE: CWD, thoug...  Tristate      Sep-21-17   15 
               RE: CWD, thoug...  mevertsen      Sep-22-17   16 
                RE: CWD, thoug...  txhunter58      Sep-22-17   17 
               RE: CWD, thoug...  Hunt_the_We...      Sep-22-17   18 
                RE: CWD, thoug...  Tristate      Sep-22-17   19 
                 RE: CWD, thoug...  Tristate      Sep-22-17   20 
                  RE: CWD, thoug...  Tristate      Sep-22-17   21 
                   RE: CWD, thoug...  txhunter58      Sep-22-17   22 
                    RE: CWD, thoug...  Homer      Sep-22-17   23 
                     RE: CWD, thoug...  elkassassin      Sep-22-17   24 
                      RE: CWD, thoug...  DW      Sep-22-17   25 
                       RE: CWD, thoug...  Homer      Sep-22-17   26 
                        RE: CWD, thoug...  elkassassin      Sep-22-17   27 
                         RE: CWD, thoug...  txhunter58      Sep-23-17   28 
                          RE: CWD, thoug...  hossblur      Sep-23-17   29 
                           RE: CWD, thoug...  Tikka      Sep-24-17   30 
                            RE: CWD, thoug...  ICMDEER      Sep-25-17   31 
                             RE: CWD, thoug...  wytex      Sep-25-17   32 

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Tristate
(4202 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
07:32 AM (MST)
1. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

There has been a tight focus in my state over the last few years regarding CWD.

Recently I saw a document which was showing, based on recent research with primates, the CDC is advising people to not eat meat from CWD positive animals. They are also advising not to have meat processed by a commercial processor that can not guarantee separation of individual deer during the processing of animals. If that is not possible they are advising you process your own meat from cervids.

Much of the scientific community now believes that although there are no confirmed cases of CWD within humans, that infection is highly possible. Many of the scientists are already talking about how we actually locate infected humans. I have also read a document that stated they now believe out of the individuals in North America which consume deer meet they believe around %20 of that population has consumed deer meat with CWD prions in it.

Two days ago I had a conversation with a close friend who is involved both politically and scientifically with battling this disease. His blatantly told me we are 20 years to late in dealing with the disease the way we should have, and over the next twenty years we are going to see drastic changes in big game hunting because of it.

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stillhunterman
(565 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
07:49 AM (MST)
2. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

Yeah Hoss, it's definitely a scary pathogen. Never had a critter tested from areas where cwd is prevalent, but many hunters do. Unfortunately, too many hunters don't take it as serious as they should, at least based on many of the internet posts I read.

Although there is some good data on the disease, there is still much to be learned, but progress is slow. There hasn't been a documented case of cwd being transferred to humans, but a recent study shows it was passed on to primates via a couple of test methods for the first time, although the study is still on going and results are preliminary. It's spread can't be slowed or stopped, and is showing up in other countries. Definitely a fascinating study for sure.

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Tikka
(1394 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
08:41 AM (MST)
3. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

My good friends son killed his first buck about 5 years ago on the Manti, it had CWD... When I get home I'll post a picture of it pretty sad shape...

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hossblur
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Sep-21-17, 
09:27 AM (MST)
4. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

>My good friends son killed his
>first buck about 5 years
>ago on the Manti, it
>had CWD... When I get
>home I'll post a picture
>of it pretty sad shape...
>

Why did u tell me that? That's my stomping ground.

I'm guilty. On my thinking CWD was a Midwest problem mostly.


Tri, seems high fence areas are huge disease carriers. Does Texas mandate testing of ranches down there?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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DW
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Sep-21-17, 
10:57 AM (MST)
5. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-21-17 AT 11:04 AM (MST)

It was started right here in ft collins Colorado back in the 60's by a research project of the wildlife biology department. I've had many friends test their deer and elk and never had a positive. Does it transfer to humans? They dont know for sure. I think once an animal gets it, they go downhill in a hurry. I wouldn't consume any sickly lookin critter, be they covered in fur, feathers, or scales.


http://deerfarmer.com/wiki/chronic-wasting-disease-origins

#livelikezac

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txhunter58
(5723 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
12:06 PM (MST)
6. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

Yes, Texas currently mandates testing of private herds to some extent. You have to test a percentage of the deer that die naturally or the ones harvested to remain certified as free of the disease. We are just in the beginning of being able to live test deer which tonsil or rectal biopsies.

The real killer with this disease is that unlike any other similar disease (Mad cow or scrapie in sheep), you can't depopulate and get rid of it. Both of those diseases will disappear if you kill all infected animals, but CWD will stay in the environment for years (no one knows for sure how long). So once in a place where deer are, you can never get rid of it. That is BAD!

By the way, it is caused by a "prion" and cooking does not kill it. So even well done meat would have active prions in it.

They have now experimentally infected Macaques (monkeys) with the CWD prion.

I know of 2 hunters that killed mature very nice mule deer bucks in northern Colorado that appeared totally healthy, and both came back positive. Colorado refunded both their tag price and the processing fee and told them not to eat the meat.

I would not be that worried about eating it myself, as I think the chances of a problem are very very small. But if I knew for sure I had gotten a positive deer, I would not eat it. If you want to pay me $10,000 to eat a known positive deer, I would probably do it. But offer me one million dollars to feed it to my kids or grandkids and I would decline the same offer.

I am a veterinarian and have private herd deer clients and we test for this routinely. So far we have not had a positive, but there are some in nearby counties. Even though I do work for people who raise pen deer, I will always side with protecting wild deer populations when up against this disease.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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Tristate
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Sep-21-17, 
12:56 PM (MST)
7. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

There is a certain percentage of required mandatory testing for permitted breeding facilities. There is no mandatory testing statewide for high-fenced ranches. When the state was formulating their CWD plan somehow it was decided to exclude TTT permitted deer. That was probably a mistake. Last year we had two positives taken from free range ranches in the state. One was an elk and one was a mule deer. I believe it was Hartley and Dalham county. These two counties are in a three county zone which all cervids must be checked before they leave those counies. I believe TP&W will be running those same check stations again this year.

In regards to how fast deer die from the disease it varies widely. There is quite a bit of genetic research going on right now which suggests certain genotypes are more resistant than others in actually being infected. This is based off of a study done on mule deer in Wyoming. Also they are studying if certain genotypes delay the effects of the disease. From our deer that have died in Texas it is hard to specifically determine date of infection but we are pretty sure that some of the infected deer were not exhibiting any of the noticeable effects of the disease. We also believe deer can carry the prion for many years before the effects start to become visible. Much of our dating of the disease in non-study individuals can only be based upon either a known or estimated age of the individual. For instance we know that one infected individual was exhibiting signs of the disease and was roughly 1 year in age. So with that deer the disease progressed very rapidly. If I remember correctly the known nucleus herd that were the first known positives within the deer breeding industry were showing no signs of the disease and those individuals were a little over 2 years old.

As for live testing deer TP&W accepted both lymph node and rectal biopsy methods in their CWD plan. Things seemed very optimistic one year ago when these methods were accepted. However this year we had a positive on a buck which was tested alive as a negative and was shot and killed after release, retested post-mortem, and was shown to be positive. In all honesty there could have been other circumstances but it has shaken the confidence of TP&W and politicians within the state. In all honesty the best defense for the test after this is that the deer breeder was probably involved in some form of deception with the original ante-mortem test.

Last the biggest threat to Texas with CWD comes from the exotic cervid herds within the state. This is also where I am sure many will disagree with me. The fact is TP&W have zero jurisdiction over these animals. The game wardens will argue that to be incorrect but it is the truth. All exotic cervids now, INCLUDING ELK, fall under the control and regulation of Texas Animal Health Commission. In the last year they formulated their plan for combating CWD and quite frankly it is an absolute joke. The testing requirements are laughable, the state border is still wide open to their transfer, and they are too broke to enforce any of it anyway. Right now exotic cervid breading and trading is the biggest CWD threat in Texas.

Fire away.

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txhunter58
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Sep-21-17, 
01:35 PM (MST)
8. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-21-17 AT 02:16 PM (MST)

"There is a certain percentage of required mandatory testing for permitted breeding facilities. There is no mandatory testing statewide for high-fenced ranches."

Correct, thanks for making that clear. Mandatory testing is only for "penned deer"

"Last the biggest threat to Texas with CWD comes from the exotic cervid herds within the state"

Pretty much agree with this statement in "susceptible" cervids. Sika, red deer, elk, etc certainly fall into this. Especially because whitetail deer out in the "wild" even if behind high fences can not be moved, but exotics can! Wide open for transmission to other parts of the state because there are people trapping and relocating exotics daily.

For some reason, the most prolific exotic, axis deer, have not had a CWD positive, and we are thinking that they are not susceptible. While not as prolific in numbers, fallow deer don't appear to be susceptible either. Hope this holds up.

But how did CWD get to central (not west) Texas? IMO from an infected whitetail in a trailer brought to a Texas breeding whitetail farm. Have they traced down where exactly it happened or do I have proof that would hold up in court on that? No. Do I believe it? Facts are basically a smoking gun so yes, I absolutely believe it.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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stillhunterman
(565 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
02:09 PM (MST)
9. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

Seems Texas is also making mandatory testing for 'free ranging' deer as well in certain areas as of this year:

https://tpwd.texas.gov/newsmedia/releases/?req=20170125a

"AUSTIN — Chronic wasting disease has been detected in a hunter harvested 1 1/2 –year-old white-tailed buck submitted for sampling within Surveillance Zone 3 in Medina County. This marks the first confirmed case of CWD in a free-ranging Texas whitetail."

"Effective immediately under an executive order issued by TPWD Executive Director Carter Smith, Surveillance Zone 3 (SZ3), which extends across portions of Bandera, Medina and Uvalde counties, is now a CWD Containment Zone and all associated rules for that designation are in effect. Those rules include restrictions on the movements of carcass parts as well as live deer possessed under the authority of a permit. The department is also implementing mandatory CWD testing of hunter harvested deer within this containment zone."

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txhunter58
(5723 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
02:18 PM (MST)
10. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

LAST EDITED ON Sep-21-17 AT 02:20 PM (MST)

Good catch Still, thus the word "statewide" in the above statement. But, I am pretty discouraged that there is any way to stop the spread of this disease.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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stillhunterman
(565 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
02:31 PM (MST)
11. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

Yeah, I'm with you tx, it is discouraging to say the least. There are many states that are implementing mandatory testing now, for what it's worth. My hope is they will at least come up with a sure fire way to do live testing that is as accurate as post mortem testing, for whatever good it will do at this point.

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Tristate
(4202 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
03:00 PM (MST)
12. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

Txhunter58,

Most of my sources close to the investigation of the nucleus herd in Medina Co. that I talked to all told me they were positive the infected deer had entered the state illegally. They were just never able to prove it. The deer breeders new that TP&W had gotten very sloppy with protocol inspections and holding breeder's feet to the fire.

Subsequently a year later several arrests were made regarding a group of men that were transporting deer all over the southern US. I believe they were out of Aspermont and they were busted with a load that had crossed Louisiana and Mississippi state lines. I have asked sources if they thought they were attached to anything in Medina county and no one in law enforcement would answer those questions. I think they were still seeing how much back info they could get from them.

On another note once a confirmed human case of CWD occurs this entire train is going to crash off the tracks in epic fashion.

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
03:35 PM (MST)
13. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

That's the part I had never pondered. The "ick" factor. Dudes get freaked about sick deer/elk, they ain't buying tags, BOOM goes wildlife across the board.

From a design, a prion that can cling to soil, live decades, can't be killed with heat. Pretty wicked deal.

Texas aside. I'm surprised, especially in the west that with all the risk, the states haven't shut down deer/elk farms.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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txhunter58
(5723 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
04:08 PM (MST)
14. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

Probably gonna be hard to prove that first case in people. Most scientists believe that some mad cow has crossed to human, but no absolute proof has shown up. Probably because millions of people have eaten tainted meat, and only a handful of cases supposedly can be traced to mad cow. So if 10,000 people eat a CWD deer, probably only a handful could theoretically come down with disease. Those people probably have some inherent deficiency in their immune system, even if it can't be proved.

That said, Scrapie MUTATED into deer CWD and thus infected a new species. If CWD ever did that into people...........don't even want to think about it. Doubtful it will ever happen because we are not similar, but not out of the relm of possibility

CWD concentrates in neural tissue and lymph nodes, so eliminate these when you butcher a deer and you will go a long way to reduce the chance of a problem. That said, my brother killed an elk in southwest Colorado last week, not an area known to have cases yet, and my wife is cooking it up as we speak. Did not have it tested, but probably will as the cases get closer to that area.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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Tristate
(4202 posts)
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Sep-21-17, 
05:48 PM (MST)
15. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

The latest primate experiment I read about supposedly infected the monkeys using three different methods. The monkeys that were fed meat with no major neural tissue or lymph nodes had a %100 infection rate. That was the reason CDC reached out to TP&W.

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mevertsen
(657 posts)
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Sep-22-17, 
09:17 AM (MST)
16. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

My daughter just killed a deer in a cwd area in South Dakota. We left the spine and head intact where the deer lay. Cwd does concern me somewhat, but not in it's original form. I worry more about mutations.

Regardless, we are eating this deer, and did not get it tested.

Playing with fire? Who knows. There are so many things to worry about that trying to avoid every possible point of getting something from somewhere is nearly impossible.

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txhunter58
(5723 posts)
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Sep-22-17, 
02:06 PM (MST)
17. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

It would probably be like lightening striking. I would worry most about the very young, and those on chemo or other drugs that would compromise the immune system. If I were hunting in an endemic area though, I would test and not feed it to my family if it were positive. One of the reasons 90% of the meat I eat is wildlife is because it is healthier. Can't say that for sure if it were an infected animal.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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Hunt_the_West
(146 posts)
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Sep-22-17, 
02:10 PM (MST)
18. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

Do you have a link to that tri? I wouldn't mind to give that a read.

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Tristate
(4202 posts)
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Sep-22-17, 
02:17 PM (MST)
19. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

I do not have a link to it. I am sorry. I am actually trying to locate the actual study myself. What I was given was a photo of a TP&W document which had the CDC bullet points on it. If I find a link to the primate study I will share it.

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Tristate
(4202 posts)
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Sep-22-17, 
02:24 PM (MST)
20. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

Here is an article which was sent to me a few months ago. This isn't the same study and doesn't give a link to the abstract data but shows an infection rate of %60 of monkeys fed the equivalent of you eating 7 ounces per month of deer meat.

I am also looking for a paper which was sent to me regarding airborne transmission of CWD in primates. If I find it I will share also.

http://www.wisfarmer.com/story/news/state/2017/06/28/macaque-study-heightens-concerns-human-susceptibility-cwd/435656001/

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Tristate
(4202 posts)
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Sep-22-17, 
02:26 PM (MST)
21. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

I found the airborne transmission experiment but it is an adobe file and I am unsure how to post it.

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txhunter58
(5723 posts)
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Sep-22-17, 
03:19 PM (MST)
22. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

Here is a youtube webinar on CWD. Some good info at about the 24 minute mark and talks about the monkeys at around 1 hour 31 minutes:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/Vtt1kAVDhDQ

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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Homer
(2835 posts)
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Sep-22-17, 
08:16 PM (MST)
23. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

I give my deer meat to my field workers and eat costco beef....


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elkassassin
(15924 posts)
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Sep-22-17, 
08:44 PM (MST)
24. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"


You Boys ever heard of CJD?

Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo

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DW
(8596 posts)
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Sep-22-17, 
09:26 PM (MST)
25. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

>
>You Boys ever heard of CJD?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650
>is a Little Close &
>I'm Not Comfortable with it!
>
>
>A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards
>will Still Make Some Good
>BRAGGIN Rights so I Can
>Say I At Least Hit
>Him!
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo
>
>

Yes


#livelikezac

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Homer
(2835 posts)
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Sep-22-17, 
10:06 PM (MST)
26. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

chronic jew disease??

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elkassassin
(15924 posts)
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Sep-22-17, 
11:22 PM (MST)
27. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

>chronic jew disease??
>
>


PLICK!

Back Me Off to 1,700 Yards,650 is a Little Close & I'm Not Comfortable with it!

A GUT SHOT at 1,700 Yards will Still Make Some Good BRAGGIN Rights so I Can Say I At Least Hit Him!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OsWQNYfEYo

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txhunter58
(5723 posts)
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Sep-23-17, 
12:02 PM (MST)
28. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

>I give my deer meat to
>my field workers and eat
>costco beef....


To each his own. I will take my natural, free of hormones, low fat, self butchered/self processed venison any day to what you can buy at Costco. I am glad that you are able to give it to someone who does enjoy it. The day that I have to give up eating what I kill due to CWD is probably the day I stop hunting with a weapon.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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hossblur
(1732 posts)
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Sep-23-17, 
02:09 PM (MST)
29. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

That in my opinion is the bad part of a disease like that. I don't disagree, and neither does anyone, but no hunters, no Pitman Robertson, no licenses, no game management. 125yrs of doing so, poor, gone. Sad day if that happens


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"

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Tikka
(1394 posts)
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Sep-24-17, 
11:07 AM (MST)
30. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

sorry to rain on your Manti parade hoss... and sorry the picture are late... but here is a Manti CWD deer from 2011... the UDWR took this deer and gave my friends boy another tag...

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ICMDEER
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Sep-25-17, 
09:40 AM (MST)
31. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

I live in the area where CWD started and it spread quickly from the Sybille Wildlife Research Center in SE Wyoming. It came there from research at CSU. We've had many deer with CWD around for 30+ years now. I work for UW and have been involved with research for 30+ years. I'm also an outfitter and know I have become "blood brothers" with many infected bucks through the years. We've had lots tested and lots of positives. And many you can tell by looking. And some that tested positive but showed no outward symptoms.

I do believe the deer are slowly developing a genetic resistance to CWD. Hope they turn the corner someday and it isn't a problem.

I'm sure I have eaten lots of CWD meat and have handled lots of CWD critters. If anybody should be infected, I'd be a prime candidate. So far so good. I worry about other things and just deal with CWD as well as we can. If a critter is weak and shows symptoms, we just don't eat him. And if one tests positive, we also no longer eat him. But many don't get tested and still get eaten.

Looking at my hands right now, I have 7 total cuts and scabs on them. I'll be gutting deer and elk starting Sunday. Do about 30 a year. So I know I'll get exposed to CWD again.

It's a problem, but I don't worry about it. I worry about important stuff like the NFL and the National Anthem.

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wytex
(119 posts)
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Sep-25-17, 
11:54 AM (MST)
32. "RE: CWD, thoughts?"

Same with us ICMDEER. Living in Laramie and hunting the canyon for years. Spouse worked at Sybill back when Thumper was still around. He was friendly CWD buck that they let kids pet on tours.
No doubt we have eaten CWD meat but so far no worries.
I agree with all of your points.

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