Cougars, Cougars, Cougars

cannonball

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If we want a deer herd we need to get rid of a lot of predators. This evening I saw a cougar on Mormon Peak. I seen a lot of coyotes in the past on this mountain, but a first for a lion.

I challenge all of you who have trail cameras in the mountains to date, tell where and send to the Utah DWR all pictures you have of coyotes, cougars, and bear. They don't seem to believe we have many predators. We need to save our deer herds. The only thing we have left are what you see in the towns and foothills right now and that isn't much.
 
I agree predator managment is a big part of wildlife econservations for sure.

One thing you could do, is buy a harvest objective permit, and hunt them or keep the tag in your pocket just in case you see one. Each unit has its quota, of which not a lot of them get filled especially on a light snow year. If you buy the harvest objective tag you can hunt cougars on any harvest objective unit. Most units are split, where LE tag holders get to hunt the prime months and get first dibs, but usually the quota is not met on a lot of units. If you have a HO permit you can start hunting on split units that haven't filled their quota around the first week of March until the end of May. If you really want to kill one find someone with hounds and wait for some snow which always happens in March and April around here. I usually buy a HO tag just in case I happen to run into one some time, hasn't happened yet though.
 
I'm not sure we're Mormon peak is ,but if it's on the Wasatch front there's way to many grape nuts that live there.They would have a chit fit if you showed up and turned a pack of hounds out on a lion track in there neighborhoods.
 
Mormon Peak is Sevier County you urbanites live in the "Fruit Cake" counties when it comes to wildlife and in my opinion "any life". When it comes to game in the rural part of the state I wish we could administer our own six-gun laws. You can't even go out, like of old, and shoot coyotes after dark with a spotlight without calling for permission.
 
We saw one about a week ago down on the Langdon on the same mountain. I've seen quite a few more yotes on the North end of the mountain this year than I have in the past, Seems to be a lot of predators this year on this mountain.
 
I got several lions on my cameras the last couple years. Along with coyotes and bobcats.

Get ready for change because it's going to happen!
 
I have no idea what change will take place. The one thing I do know is if we don't control the predators and the Big Game Board probably won't all open areas like the Fishlake and Monroe is on the verge of being a limited area, just like the Henries. You heard it here first and it might take 20 years, but it is coming.
 
Cannonball I live in the Uintah Basin and the problem we see is,this time of year the deer and elk all move to the tribe and these big land owners. So the lions move with them and they stay there all winter.The tribe won't let us hunt them and the big land owners won't let us hunt them. The land owners want the DWR to kill them or trap them and move them some were else.Its the same with coyote and bear.The tribe will let you hunt coyotes if you buy a permit. I think it's the problem all over the state and the west.These big land owners want the deer and elk on their land so they can make big money.But most of them there's no way they will let you hunt predators on their land.They call the DWR and wants them to do it for them.
 
Lions and coyotes are out of control in Davis county, see them more and more every year, and see less and less deer. Coyotes are becoming a problem everywhere.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-17 AT 08:06AM (MST)[p]I would ask some questions of all who complain about predator populations.

Do you actively hunt them?

Have you killed any?

If not, why not?

It is not easy hunting predators. I have killed four lions personally. I run into people frequently who complain about not seeing deer and say that "you" need to kill more lions. The message is either coming from online or the bar stool.

Can't kill lions and coyotes from the bar stool or computer chair.

You can get h HO permits in Utah. Nevada has OTC lion tags. Coyotes even have bounties in some Utah counties? Get off the couch and go hunt if it bugs you so much.
 
I agree predators can be problematic. You know what else is F##kin people slamming houses on every last piece of winter range for their millionaire view. Mule deer winter range in northern utah is disappearing every day. Human development is by far more of problem to mule deer than anything. A week and a half ago a giant non-typical buck was hit a mile from my house on the freeway. I wish we could quit destroying their winter range.

"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."
 
There are a few units in southern Utah that are basically year round harvest objective units for cougar. I tried to get the RAC and DWR to at least entertain the idea of making all cougar units year round harvest objective with the exception of an LE season. That idea got nowhere. The houndsmen would have a fit. The PETA type folks would be even more stirred up. I think they are more afraid of the political fight than anything.I believe the biologist would side with most hunters, but they have to try and work with all groups. The number of cougar permits that are given in any one unit is based on what they believe the actual harvest number will be. They may give out 10 LE permits but they figure that only 7-8 will actually be filled, same thing with all the different big game tags. They know that there will almost always be only a certain percentage of tags filled. That's why they depend on actual harvest data to make the recommendation for the number of hunting permits issued.
I agree that (especially units struggling to get to better deer numbers) should be year round harvest objective units for cougar and bear.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-17 AT 01:58PM (MST)[p]You just seen your very first cougar in an area, and now there's too many and that's the deer problem.... you realise how dumb that sounds right?
You wanna know what's hurting your deer herd, you and the ridiculous amount of other tag holders every year. If you're wanting to sacrifice another game animal and another sportsmans passion, I hope you're willing to give up killing deer yourself. There are plenty of guys who view a trophy cougar as more of a prize than a trophy mule deer, what makes your interest any more important than theirs? What are you personally doing to improve the deer herd besides complaining on a forum?
 
Your colors are showing houndsman. When a BLM worker, who has cameras all over the Pahvant range told me that the cougars are all over that mountain. He went on to tell me that if wasn't for the houndsmen something would be done about it, but they(the houndsmen) are so vocal nothing gets done and the deer numbers, specially on the north part are decreasing fast.

Just how many people enjoy deer hunting as compared to those who enjoy lion hunting? Not only that but when the deer go so do the lions so it looks like you are cutting off your nose inspite of your face.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-17 AT 06:02PM (MST)[p]>Your colors are showing houndsman.
>When a BLM worker, who
>has cameras all over the
>Pahvant range told me that
>the cougars are all over
>that mountain. He went
>on to tell me that
>if wasn't for the houndsmen
>something would be done about
>it, but they(the houndsmen) are
>so vocal nothing gets done
>and the deer numbers, specially
>on the north part are
>decreasing fast.
>
>Just how many people enjoy deer
>hunting as compared to those
>who enjoy lion hunting?
>Not only that but when
>the deer go so do
>the lions so it looks
>like you are cutting off
>your nose inspite of your
>face.

Couldn't agree with you more and it's too bad a vocal minority (lion hunters with hounds) appear to be listened to more by your DWR than the majority who deer hunt!
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-13-17 AT 07:14PM (MST)[p]>I challenge all of you who
>have trail cameras in the
>mountains to date, tell where
>and send to the Utah
>DWR all pictures you have
>of coyotes, cougars, and bear.
>

It is ironic that you suggest using trail cameras to help the deer herd.

Yes you do see a ton of trail cam photos with a predator lurking in the shadows.

By far the majority of trail cam users use bait. That bait attracts mice,rats,rabbits,birds deer and every thing else.

So guess what? That makes for (un-natural) easy pickings for predators of all types at these baited camera sights.

The chance of catching a lion on a randomly placed un-baited trail cam is pretty slim.

The use of baited trail cams do a lot of harm to the deer herd in western states.

Don't get me wrong I don't have anything against killing a few predators, but we all need to realize that some of this tec that so many rely on is doing more damage to the herd than a few lions.
 
You'd be mistaken to think it's the influence of hound hunters to blame, it's the philosophy that wildlife in the state needs to be managed for bio diversity. It's not the goal of the DWR to turn the state into a giant big game ranch where only a select few species are promoted and allowed to flourish at the expense of all others, rather it's the understanding that all species, including lions, contribute to the health of the ecosystem.

BTW, if I set out trail cams all over and get pics of 3 deer and an elk can I conclude we have too many deer and elk in the state?? That's the fallacy of the cougar on trail cam argument.
 
Excellent post! And not only is that the DWR's philosophy/goal, it's their mandate per the Utah State Legislature via the Wildlife Board. So, if you don't like that philosophy/goal, then you'll have to discuss it with your Utah State legislative representative. And if you don't like how that mandate is administered, then take it up with the Wildlife Board. But putting blame on the DWR and houndsmen will not only get you nowhere, it will alienate you from your representative and the Wildlife Board. Good luck with that!
 
At the last Wildlife Board meeting on lions, the room was filled with anti hunting and peta. There were the houndsmen who agreed with the divisions proposal, and RMEF, SFW, Cattlemens association, sheepmen there to try to get the lions numbers brought down. I would guess there were 50 anti with most of them talking to lower permit numbers or no hunt. Problem is moist hunters do not who up at the racs or board meeting except a few while the anti's fill the room. It creates a problem for both the racs and the wildlife board.
 
We have a few trail cams out. Every camera had lion,bobcat, and coyotes. We also know how many deer, elk, and moose were on the same cameras.

It is against the law to kill a cougar with kittens. That part of the population is protected. Over half of the cougar population is protected. Unfortunately more than half of our deer herd in northern Utah died last winter.

On the Cache we had 11 deer permits in our family. One kid shot a small 4 point buck. Most saw very few deer and No bucks. Very little shooting in this area we have hunted for 25 years. Deer numbers are the worst seen in at least 10 years.

There are too many predators for how many deer we have in Northern Utah after the hard winter last year. That is obvious to those in the woods, and have cameras out.
 
My colors, you mean someone who has an appreciation for a larger variety of hunting than you. Flat out, our deer herds are not in trouble because of our lion population. If you believe lions are to blame, you're part of the problem. We've herd whine ass deer hunters complaining about the lions for years, we continually have increased lion permits. If you actually cared enough to do more than complain, you would know that we continually raise lion tags and our lion population is every bit as poor as our deer herds. Until guys like you are willing to look in the mirror and realize we as humans can't continue to kill as many deer as we do, we won't have a better deer herd. There have been plenty of studies done to wipe out lion populations in areas and the deer herd doesn't respond. Wanna know what brings back a deer herd, closing a unit for a few years. But that would cut into the ability of guys to road hunt 2 points. We can have both a healthy deer herd and a healthy lion population, right now they are both in trouble. It won't be fixed by continually blaming the cats. Just by the fact that you thought it was a rare and unique enough event to see a lion, that you posted here, completely proves wrong the idea there are too many cats.
 
About 10 years ago they had more lion permits than they do now. Our deer herd was poor. It made progress until last winter. It's not just lions being the problem. Coyotes, cars, less habitat, weather, higher elk populations in some areas, etc.

I have been chasing cats with dogs for over 20 years. Going this winter again. Unfortunately fewer deer mean we need fewer predators.
Especially in Northern Utah where we had a lot of winter kill. Our deer herd in Southern Utah maybe a different story. Less winter kill.

I have been in a lot of wildlife meetings over the past 25 years. I have a pretty good idea what the truth is, and what can be done. We are not going to change weather, winter kill much on hard winters. Feeding helps some. We are not going to decrease number of cars. We have fenced a lot of migration routes. Decreasing the number of predators is one thing we can do to help our deer herd bounce back, then we can have more lion permits, which is what happened about 10 years ago.
 
Laughin!!

Cannonball saw a lion, now the sky is falling.

I know it's hard for you Southern TARDS to comprehend but Kevin D is spot on.
 
Hands down human development is the biggest threat to mule deer it is not the cougar. Utah has hunted cats hard since the 80's. Cats have to be hunted, but human development followed by last years winter is hurting mule deer. And Killing mass amounts of immature deer after a hard winter will not help.

"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."
 
You HOUNDERS know how to spew your BS. Your idea of being out of lions is when you can't find a "LARGE MALE". I've been around hounder enough to know that is what it is all about. The females you just tree and let go for another day. I've heard it all before. We could have a lot more lions, if we had a lot more deer. Yes I know the coyotes are a big problem also, but the lions are so reclusive most people never know they are there. To the hounder who said purchase a management permit. There are none on the Monroe! Check it out - NONE.

You guys can just holler and scream all you want. You might have a lot of hunters believe your talk.
 
> Hands down human development
>is the biggest threat to
>mule deer it is not
>the cougar. Utah has hunted
>cats hard since the 80's.
>Cats have to be hunted,
>but human development followed by
>last years winter is hurting
>mule deer. And Killing mass
>amounts of immature deer after
>a hard winter will not
>help.
>
> "We don't have a gun
>problem we have prescription drug
>problem."

Ya, on the Wasatch Front and northern utah, but not south of the Payson-dixon line.
 
I use to to go hunting with a serious hound man and really injoyed hunting cats and bears. I asked him what he thought about the cats killing out the deer and he put it this way if a herd of deer is healthy and the DWR released permits for proper management we could have cats and deer but if the herd of deer had a large death rate such as a bad winter, drought or disease and the cat numbers stay up until the cats starve out they will have a severe affect on the deer herd from recovering to the point they might never recover. Example the South Nebo from Nephi south, back in the 60s and 70s the area was some of the best trophy deer hunting in the state the herd got severely hurt by winters and drought but most of all by the semi trucks hauling coal on Hyw 28. It is rough country even for experience cat hunters it can be a intimidating place to hunt the DWR have never released enough permits for this unit and what permits that do get filled are mostly from the north end of the unit. For years now you can travel up each canyon from Nephi to Gunnison on the west side and from Gunnison to Fountain Green on the east side and on a good day you won't see more than a hand full of deer in any one canyon. You can go into any one of them canyons during the winter and cut multiple cat tracks. I know we will hear from the hounds men we don't know what we are seeing it is the same cat or you don't know a cat track from a coyote track. That might be true I am no expert been wrong many times before but I do agree lions, bear and coyotes do hurt deer herds and if we don't control them we will be supplement feeding the predators to keep them alive just take a lesson from California.
 
Uhh.. cannonball.. if you look on page 33 of the lion proclamation. youll see that Monroe is a split unit. with a quota of 8 resident tags, and 1 nonresident... so what that meens is if they don't kill 9 cats on the limited entry hunt. then it will be open on march 1st till may 31st to over the counter harvest objective tags. till 9 cats are dead or the season ends, whichever comes first,,, that's a few more then NONE I think,,, check it out. I did
 
Good post.

The cougars are so reclusive we need the houndsmen to control them, but as much as we talk about it they don't seem to understand if we have more deer we have more cougars. We need more females eliminated and they will not do that. I have been around them enough to know that fact.

During the early days of the dedicated hunter program, the only place I could get my meeting in was in Cedar City. There was standing room only and during that meeting a DWR Biologist was talking about cougars and how killing them would not help the deer herd. Not a soul said anything. I got a little huffy, could not take it and ask what the crumb he was talking about. Here is his answer: He said if the females were hunted and shot it would have an effect on the deer herd, but the cougar hunters only wanted a big male and the female was tree'd and left for another day of pursuit. From then to now, times have changed a little to include certain number of females, but just not enough.
 
LAST EDITED ON Nov-15-17 AT 12:11PM (MST)[p]>"but if the herd of deer had a large death rate such as a bad winter, drought or disease and the cat numbers stay up until the cats starve out they will have a severe affect on the deer herd from recovering to the point they might never recover."

Until the cats starve out???? I think they are too efficient to "starve out" so the severe affect keeps happening.
 
cougars don't often starve out IMO. Elk, pets, other animals, or move to new territory. That is when you will find more problems with cats in town.

You can't loose 50% of our deer herd in Northern Utah and have the same number of cats. Elk populations are down as well. Seen about 8 six point bulls on the Cache unit this fall that had Zero cows. Not many cows compared to recent years.
 
Harvet objective hunting has definitely brought lion numbers down from were they were 20 years ago.





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huntin50 my point about the supplement feeding program and taking a lesson from California was exactly what you said about eating pets I have read news articles and seen news footage of exactly that pets are not safe outdoors at night in some cali neighborhoods. When you see film footage of a lion staring in the front door of a seven eleven you know there is a problem.
 
Originally I was given information that cougars killed on average 1 deer per week. Read a study finished last year and the conclusion was that a cougar will kill on average 2 to 2.5 deer per week.
They are opportunists, they will kill even when they are not pushed by hunger. Its who they are and what they do. It may be that there are areas in the state that the deer herds are in what has been called "predator pits".
The population gets very low and predation basically (along with natural winter mortality) kills or negates any annual fawn increase that occurs each spring. So, the affect is basically a static population. Predation is one of the only things we can somewhat partially remove if we want higher deer populations.
 
Yeah just wait Payson is quite beautiful and the development boom is on it's way. There isn't much land left along the WF. And Utah county is filling right up with humans building on every mtn. bench. It'll be headed your way shortly until the economy hits a bump in the road. And there are plenty of cats on the WF. They don't get hunted because you can't run dogs in the watershed. Which to me is total BS. There needs to be an exception to take some lions on the unit.

"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."
 

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