Founder has a side gig, opinions?

hossblur

Long Time Member
Messages
10,520
This has been being discussed in Wyoming thread for a few days. Curious as to what guys think. Did you know the king of DIY hunters was selling scouting? Care?

Founder so far has been getting pounded, and to my knowledge hasn't banned anyone, which I find comendable.



Wyoming Hunt Consulting/Scouting
Service Provided By Brian Latturner,
Founder/Owner of MonsterMuleys.com
Email: [email protected]

For those looking to hunt where a big buck lives in Western Wyoming in 2018, who don't have the time to scout, I can help, then you can do a "Do-It-Yourself" hunt.

I've been scouting and hunting Western Wyoming for quite a few years and each summer I get up there and cover lots of ground with a backpack on my back looking for "special" bucks. Every year I find a few big bucks that I consider "special" that I do not end up hunting (see pics to the right or below).

What I'm offering is a hunt consulting package that is guaranteed. My guarantee is that I'll locate you a buck of your liking, or you cancel our agreement.

In my estimation, my services can improve your odds of harvesting a "special" buck by 4000%.

Trophy and Premium Buck Packages: $999.00 - $1499.00

Each consulting package will include:
* Photos of the buck you want to hunt
* Exact location of where the buck has been seen
* Photos of other good bucks in the area
* Trailhead location on Google Earth Image
* Suggested camp location on Google Earth Image
* Nearest known water source
* Suggested areas to hunt for best chance of success
* Detailed report on how I'd hunt the buck/area, etc.
* Phone consultation leading up to the hunt
* No two clients (or groups) will be sent to hunt the same buck


Basic Package: $599.00

This basic consulting package will give you the information on a great hunting spot where I have found an above-average number of bucks, and some pretty darn good ones, with the potential to hold something very special. These are spots that impress me greatly, despite the fact that I may not have found a whopper while scouting. Good package to get you started on your hunt.
Consulting package will include:
* Photos of good bucks in the area
* Trailhead location on Google Earth Image
* Suggested camp location on Google Earth Image
* Nearest known water source
* Suggested areas to hunt for best chance of success
* Detailed report on how I'd hunt the buck/area, etc.
* Phone consultation leading up to the hunt
* No two clients (or groups) will be sent to hunt the same area


I'm sure the first question that most of you have is, "What size of buck can you find for me?" Well, that's hard to say, but I typically locate 6-7 bucks each year that would gross score better than 185" and 7-9 175"+ bucks, and often a few that may not break 180", but are unique and special in some other way (Slightly less size in region H). And sometimes I do locate a 200-incher. They're extremely rare however. (Note: 2017 was a tough year. I found a handful of 180+ bucks, but none over 190)

Scouting the Wyoming high country is very important when it comes to having an enjoyable and successful hunt. Many hunters show up a day or two prior to the hunt opener, not knowing exactly where a "taker buck" lives, or where to camp, or where the nearest water is, or how to best hunt the area. Don't be that guy. The tag, time waiting to draw the tag and the hunt trip cost too much to go in unprepared.

Most 3-4 day scouting trips for a person traveling from 6+ hours away are going to cost at least a couple hundred dollars, plus 3-4 days of missed work, and who's to say you'll find a trophy...??? Heck, who's to say you won't show up and have to deal with pouring rain for 3 days. That's not all that fun.
Those with limited time away from work, and who want to save time off for the hunt, will best benefit from this offer. If I don't show you a buck you want to hunt, we cancel our agreement and go our separate way. But if I do show you a photo of a buck you want to hunt, then I'll supply you with all that the package above includes and you'll be ready to go hunting.

If this offer is something of interest, shoot me an email and we'll discuss your expectations, as that'll be the big question mark as to whether I can help you or not.

Bucks I find during the summer will be shown to clients on a first-come, first-serve basis. The first person who pays a deposit is first in line, 2nd is 2nd in line, etc. Each will have 2 days (1 day after August 15th) to let me know if that's the buck they want to hunt before it's offered to the next client in line.

I can only help a handful of hunters, so this offer is limited.

Once we communicate via email and you state the caliber of buck you'd be happy with and I'm pretty confident I can find a buck for you, then I'll require a 50% deposit. In the event that I'm unable to locate a buck of that caliber for you, OR I can't find one you are interested in, I'll issue you a refund. So, you only pay if I find a buck you want to hunt.
The remaining 50% for the consulting package will be due before location of buck and other package items are provided.

My goal with this offer here is to basically share my scouting costs for the year, while saving you time, effort and money if scouting that high country is difficult for whatever reason (time away from work or the wife and kids, distance, physical demand, etc). I want you to be successful. I want to see you harvest a great buck.

This is not a guided hunt. I will not be with you on the hunt. I only offer pre-hunt consulting. No guiding, outfitting, packing, cooking, driving, etc.

Rates are based on client expectations. 175-185 (170-180 in region H) caliber buck....$999.00. 185+ (180+ in region H) buck....$1499.00. The additional cost is for an additional two days on the mountain on average. On average, it takes 3-5 days of scouting for me to find bucks in the 180" class and better.






"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I Just wanna know one thing?

How Quick did it make Him a Millionaire?









She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
I Guess I Have a 2nd Question?

Does He Run Wyoming Plates on His Dodge for Added Security?:D







She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
If it's legal and there's folks out there willing to pay I have no problem with it. If he loves to spend time in the mountains looking at deer and can make a few $$$ for his effort good for him.

JD
 
If you guys don't mind, just as a social experiment, include your age with your comment.
Thx



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>
>If you guys don't mind, just
>as a social experiment, include
>your age with your comment.
>
>Thx
>
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


You already know I'm an Old Bastard Hoss!:D







She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
I agree with Jdan. It's founder's business and currently legal. I don't think you guys on his case could be more clear that you disagree with it. I think we got it.
 
>I agree with Jdan. It's founder's
>business and currently legal. I
>don't think you guys on
>his case could be more
>clear that you disagree with
>it. I think we got
>it.

I agree I've been clear.

But not everyone reads the Wyoming section.

If I'm wrong, I'm ok with that. This is curiosity on my side. Thus wondering the age of supporters or detractors. Is this another generational issue?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
If it's legal, I don't have a problem with it.

I help friends and family all the time. This past year I marked an ?x? on the map for my brother, and he killed within 1/3 mile from that spot. I also help folks on hunting forums like this one from time to time. And certainly have received help as well. Now no money has ever exchanged hands, but again if it's legal, no issues. I'm 35.
 
I'm opposed to a list of things that we do in the hunting community, they would fill a yellow note pad, BUT........... they are all legal.

I find no fault in anyone, Founder included, that does anything that is legal, within the system.

If there is a fault, blame the system, not the person. Humans, to their ingenious credit, always do any thing that is with
In their laws and mores, if it they see a way to improve their situation.

While I may not personally like what Founder or hossburr or SFW or RMEF or land owners, or long range archers, or in line muzzleloaders, or range ffinders, or residents, or non-residents etc. etc etc, do or don't do, I never blame the individual, I HOLD THE STSTEM ACCOUNTABLE.

The standards from hunting camp to hunting camp are unique and as variable as the colors in a spectrum, as long as they stay legal..........MIND YOUR DAMN BUSINESS AND TAKE IT UP WITH THE SYSTEM.

D I'm 70 C
 
Similar business is done for fishing as well with GPS location, tactic, and pics of success. A few sofa anglers have purchased the offered packages and have since told their buddy the magic spot then the buddy told his buddy. Crowding in these areas are now an common issue and the angling experience has decreased at the once would be secret spots. The same will hold true for what Founder is doing. Legal? You bet! Pissing off some locals because he is selling "spots"? Yuppers. Unethical? Perhaps. Selling out the hunting heritage? I think so. Founder is a businessman after all. I don't agree with what Founder is doing due to my personal ethics but pursueing this is part of him creating and living his American dream.

Age 47

"Courage is being scared to death but
saddling up anyway."
 
>I'm opposed to a list of
>things that we do in
>the hunting community, they would
>fill a yellow note pad,
>BUT........... they are all legal.
>
>
>I find no fault in anyone,
>Founder included, that does anything
>that is legal, within the
>system.
>
>If there is a fault, blame
>the system, not the person.
> Humans, to their ingenious
>credit, always do any thing
>that is with
>In their laws and mores, if
>it they see a way
>to improve their situation.
>
>While I may not personally like
>what Founder or hossburr or
>SFW or RMEF or
>land owners, or long range
>archers, or in line muzzleloaders,
>or range ffinders, or residents,
>or non-residents etc. etc etc,
>do or don't do, I
>never blame the individual, I
>HOLD THE STSTEM ACCOUNTABLE.
>
>The standards from hunting camp to
>hunting camp are unique and
>as variable as the colors
>in a spectrum, as long
>as they stay legal..........MIND YOUR
>DAMN BUSINESS AND TAKE IT
>UP WITH THE SYSTEM.
>
>D I'm 70 C

But, aren't we all, collectively, "the system"?

I have no dog in this fight, I will probably never hunt the areas the service in question serves.

6 1/2 decades.

ClearCreek
 
Btw.

I have zero intention of hunting this area, I've never met founder. Not dog in the fight either.

I'm 43



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I'm going to throw something out there to those of you that answered..."if it's legal, I have no problem with it."

Slavery was once legal...women were not legally allowed to vote once...people are legally stoned to death in some countries....you can legally use a scope on a muzzle loader in Utah...It's legal to carry a rifle that has an adjustable turret and then shoot at an animal at 1000 + yards....You can bait deer in some states...Marijuana is becoming legal in many states....the "bump stock" attachment in the shooting in Las Vegas...I could go on!

So...you Folks only have a problem with something if it's illegal??? For the record...I agree and disagree with stuff regardless of the legality.

So to answers the OP's question...Yes I do see a problem with it. To me, this is another instance in which you take the true meaning of the word "hunting" out of the equation. These type of people are not welcome in my camp...and we probably wouldn't miss each other LOL.

56 years old.
 
Here?s a link to my consulting page;
http://www.monstermuleys.com/hunt-consulting-scouting/

The intelligence I have is of high value, no doubt about that. The report I provide really is meant for those who simply can't scout themselves, for whatever reason.......not enough vacation, too far, etc. I'd always suggest that if someone can scout themselves, do it cause it's cool country to be in.
But if you can't, but still want to have an idea where to hunt and don't desire to hire a guide, then the reports I offer are well, well worth it.

Obviously I have no problem with it. If I wanted to hunt some rugged place where I wasn?t able to scout, I rather a scouting report to help me out than going in blind. I don't have the money for a $6000 guide.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
I am all for Founders new business venture to monetize information. It is a pefect value product for a guy like me who is willing to put in a little work. His basic package is a great option to supliment my own scouting.

Combining the info of Founder's basic package with my own pre-season work means I will get the same experience of a fully guided $8k hunt for around $1k and I get the added bonus of hunting on my own terms.

I have enough points to hunt Region G this year and will be strongly considering Founder's basic package.

BTW...i am 40
 
This is old news, don't you guys ever get tired of beating that dead horse?

I have no problem with it, and if I were to hunt G I'd seriously consider his services.


2a0fcsk.gif
 
That's a weak argument at best and almost embarrasing. Slavery, women not being allowed to vote? Really? These are examples you site to back up your argument?
Laws were changed. Until the law is changed it's perfectly legal.

It's legal and until it's illegal Founder has every right to continue doing what he wants. It's pretty simple. If you don't like it change it.

If they do pass a law I hope Founder continues to find great deer and offers them up for no charge just to piss off all you cry babies and guides who think the deer belong to them.







>I'm going to throw something out
>there to those of you
>that answered..."if it's legal, I
>have no problem with it."
>
>
>Slavery was once legal...women were not
>legally allowed to vote once...people
>are legally stoned to death
>in some countries....you can legally
>use a scope on a
>muzzle loader in Utah...It's legal
>to carry a rifle that
>has an adjustable turret and
>then shoot at an animal
>at 1000 + yards....You can
>bait deer in some states...Marijuana
>is becoming legal in many
>states....the "bump stock" attachment in
>the shooting in Las Vegas...I
>could go on!
>
>So...you Folks only have a problem
>with something if it's illegal???
>For the record...I agree and
>disagree with stuff regardless of
>the legality.
>
>So to answers the OP's question...Yes
>I do see a problem
>with it. To me, this
>is another instance in which
>you take the true meaning
>of the word "hunting" out
>of the equation. These type
>of people are not welcome
>in my camp...and we probably
>wouldn't miss each other LOL.
>
>
>56 years old.
 
Hey hoss!

You've opened a Real Can of worms this time!






She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
I'm of the opinion his business will collapse under its success within a draw cycle and a half.
Successful clients will ruin spots for Founders new clients. A successful client can bring another friend in who has more points and draw quickly to return to the area they learned. A client can wait their turn and return to the location when they draw again, or they can just plain old spot burn and share it with others either via social media or word of mouth.
Founder will not be able to know for certain if it is happening since he will be in his usual haunts searching well before the season starts.
But if he finds another nice deer In an area where he had found another nice deer before and sold that location to a client, I would be willing to bet that a previous client or someone that client has told could be in that same area opening day.
The new client will just think that the other people had found the same area through scouting or coincidence, but either way they will be frustrated with the product that they purchased.
Founder will have to have a lot of special secret spots If he is willing to risk some of them becoming tainted.
 
It's legal to shoot does in many areas.

At the present, I hate it. It makes me furious when we know our deer are slipping away. For many years I tried to do something about it. Met with biologists from the FG, spoke on the record in public hearing, meet directly with ever FG Director in Utah since 1983, (until the present one was appointed). Served on many committees etc. Some might say I've been an activist. On this legal killing of does issue and countless others, for over 40 years.

Having said that, I don't bother people who are shooting does legally, nor do I bother killing yearlings, hunting with trail cameras, hiring guides, hell, if it's legal I have been known to help them do it. It would like telling some one to slow down that's going 80 on a 80 mile an hour freeway. It's legal! If you don't like it, take it up with Dept of Transportation, not the guy driving the car!

DC
 
I don't see it as an issue, I also don't see it as a morale or ethics issue. Comparing slavery to hunting deer is ridiculous. Seems more like a ploy from Wyoming outfitters who are butt hurt. If they pass the law, and Brian gets a license and does the same thing-they'll still find something to b!tch about how it's not fair.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-17 AT 12:14PM (MST)[p] I've Never THRASHED Founder For Doing what He's Doing!

I've Never told Him What He's Doing is a GREAT Thing Neither!

I've Always Wondered though how You could ever put a Price Tag on a Pristine Hunting Area/Favorite Spot/Sacred Spot that Took You Many Years & Decades Learning How to Hunt it & The Habits the Wildlife use in them areas?

Just in the Last Few Years I/We have Lost several of those type of Spots Mostly to Illegal BS!

(Not what Founder is doing!)

Even though I Hunt a General Deer Unit that is not never been Known for Trophies, I'll Pass Knowledge on to My Kids & Grandkids in Hopes of them maybe taking a half decent Buck in them places someday and even though the Places I'm Talking about would be considered PISS POOR by most of you,I just couldn't & wouldn't Sell them GPS Coordinates for any amount of Money,I'll Stay a POOR Boy all My Life & Hope the Future Generations can Make Me Proud & leave them a Chance at a Buck someday!

There are Many,Many Reasons why the Deer Herds are in PISS POOR Shape!

Hang in there!

It'll get Worse!

And then I get to Thinking:

Maybe Founder has had his Day in G & H?

The Thing I Think about the Most is:

Founder Sells them Coordinates the 1st year!

Then that Hunter passes them on to others & it Multiplies out of Hand to say the Least!

Heard it from a Friend who..........!

Heard it from a Friend who..........!

EDIT:

Within Seconds,Maybe Minutes the Info is Worldwide with modern Technology!

This Next Sentence isn't Directed at Founder!

But I'm Warning you!

If You know of a Place where there's even a Chance You'd Best Keep Your Lipps Zipped!









She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
>Hey elkassassin, I didn't see the
>PISSCUTTER rate? :D
>
>
97172deliverancebanjo.jpg


LOL Eel!

PISSCUTTERS are not where Founder is gonna make his Millions!:D








She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
Thanks for sharing jm77.

That's how you do it gentlemen.

All of these napkin meetings, coffee shop argument, internet debates between total strangers, amount to nothing, until you get it put into some kind of legal proceeding, where those appointed or elected, who make regulations/laws have to deal with it.


Now........ for those who moved Founder's behavior, from napkin to a Legislative House Bill, you too are equally as venerable to Legislative House Bill's, if you reach too far, some day, some one, will "grow" a sympathetic Legislator and their coffee shop arguments will come before the body of the Legislature and you too will find your "way of life" restricted or illuminated. Market hunting was once a life style and "the norm".

When the resource becomes too scarce, some "Bull of The Woods" will fix it.

DC
 
I don't have any heart burn over a basic informational package containing access points and areas that typically hold deer. I am not ?sold? on the idea of selling individual deer, but fail to see how it has a ?major negative impact? to the overall herd.

If I am reading this law correctly founder could sell a package that contained information such as access, trails, basins that hold deer, but not an individual deer.

Is this correct JM77?
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-17 AT 01:15PM (MST)[p]What Founder is doing is legal. He is providing a scouting package. Scouting packages are common, just Google them. And I have considered one. Comparing this to slavery is not a good comparison. Slavery may have been legal, but it was also immoral.

I really see no difference in Founder's scouting packages, drop camps from outfitters, semi-guided hunts, or guided hunts. They provide a service more efficiently than I, or anyone else, can do from 2000 miles away.

Much, if not most of the area he scouts is public land, which belongs to me, you, and every other US citizen. The state of Wyoming is attempting to regulate profit from public property.
And I'm OK with that.

I think this is a business and should be subject to other requirements of a business, whether that be a permit, a license, etc...

Founder is not shooting a deer for me, he is providing a service to help me be more successful.

Regarding sharing info, we all do it. If you come to hunt with me, I'm going to show you where I have stands, trails, trail cam pics, offer help dragging, use of my ATV, etc... The difference is I'm not charging money for this. It's just friends. I'll probably raid your food cooler though!

Now if I see Founder at the trail head and he says he saw a big buck two ridges over, gives me a pic, map, etc, and doesn't charge me anything, then that isn't a business, its just being a friend. Therefore no license required.

That's my opinion. And I'm in Tennessee. And 51 years old.
 
See......... there we go, another creative idea, from another creative human, and so on and on we go, thiinking of new and better ways.

It a free web site, proceed as you wish. I PM a little now and then. :D
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-17 AT 03:28PM (MST)[p]>That's a weak argument at best
>and almost embarrasing. Slavery,
>women not being allowed to
>vote? Really? These
>are examples you site to
>back up your argument?
>Laws were changed. Until the
>law is changed it's perfectly
>legal.
>
>It's legal and until it's illegal
>Founder has every right to
>continue doing what he wants.
> It's pretty simple.
>If you don't like it
>change it.
>
>If they do pass a law
>I hope Founder continues to
>find great deer and offers
>them up for no charge
>just to piss off all
>you cry babies and guides
>who think the deer belong
>to them.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>>I'm going to throw something out
>>there to those of you
>>that answered..."if it's legal, I
>>have no problem with it."
>>
>>
>>Slavery was once legal...women were not
>>legally allowed to vote once...people
>>are legally stoned to death
>>in some countries....you can legally
>>use a scope on a
>>muzzle loader in Utah...It's legal
>>to carry a rifle that
>>has an adjustable turret and
>>then shoot at an animal
>>at 1000 + yards....You can
>>bait deer in some states...Marijuana
>>is becoming legal in many
>>states....the "bump stock" attachment in
>>the shooting in Las Vegas...I
>>could go on!
>>
>>So...you Folks only have a problem
>>with something if it's illegal???
>>For the record...I agree and
>>disagree with stuff regardless of
>>the legality.
>>
>>So to answers the OP's question...Yes
>>I do see a problem
>>with it. To me, this
>>is another instance in which
>>you take the true meaning
>>of the word "hunting" out
>>of the equation. These type
>>of people are not welcome
>>in my camp...and we probably
>>wouldn't miss each other LOL.
>>
>>
>>56 years old.

Thanks for making your stance clear....no matter what it is, you would be fine with it if it's legal. Read my post carefully and you will see the point I was trying to make. Embarrassing"...so you have bump stocks for sale? DOH!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-17 AT 06:51PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-17 AT 06:42?PM (MST)

It is legal there is no arguing there. It is probably worth the money IMO. And Founder has found and killed some really great bucks. But the downside is if someone is successful will they take a buddy in for free for what they paid a good chunk of change for and use it for their own gain down the road. The WF has had it's share of exposure making it not as fun as it used to be. by jack telling jim and jim telling jerry. So that's the downside to it. Another thing to consider is how would it make you feel as a wyoming resident. I think this way of scouting is will make him some money. But he may have to do it in multiple states and then shift it around when one unit peaks out in popularity. So my take is I see both positive and negative results. I also want to say this careful what you ask of your govt. every rule they make will strip you of a freedom. And the govt. has not fixed anything they put there hand in. Look at shed seasons they don't work at all. So sometimes you're better off to not even let the govt. in on what's going on with sportsman issues.
30 yrs old

"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."
 
I have no problem with a guy trying to make some cash doing something he loves. Hell I may even give him a shout next year if my scouting doesn't go as planned. I do feel that calling a guy an "idiot" then misspelling words like "would" and "Question" is kind of lame. just my two cents.

31 yrs
 
Reminds me of a Saying an Old Timer I knew that is now Dead use to say:

"""How Much is that Timber Worth"""?







She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-17 AT 07:18PM (MST)[p]I have strong feelings on the issue, the Wyoming forum on this subject proves it.

I was curious if this selling or buying of scouting was a "flat brimmed issue", thus the age part.

I find myself more and more disillusioned with the "hunting industry". It seems there is nearly no end to what is done in the name of inches, or to be famous.

Founder didn't invent this. I find it disheartening that a guy who speaks so often about DIY, sells info so guys DONT have to. DIY means do it yourself. To me that means FIND IT YOURSELF.

I find it equally sad the only defense is "its legal". Forgetting that market hunting also was "legal" at one point.

We seem to have taken a turn the last while in which we celebrate the picture, instead of the effort.

Founder obviously earns it. His time on the mtn earning it should be celebrated. Taking a short cut to get to where he is, is just that, IMHO.

He and I disagree on what he is(I see little difference between he and a guide).

My hunting spots won't give you 190 bucks. I won't sell them to you regardless. I gladly share them with the guys I recognize who have spent years grinding away. They do with me too. I'm old school in that, you should have to EARN your way. To me that's what should be celebrated. Not a guy with disposable income and a Google.

Thanks for playing along.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
But Hoss?

Maybe the Money they'll Spend with Founder Was EARNED the hard way?:D









She Don't Just Rain She Pours!

That Girl Right There's The Perfect Storm!


90087hankjr.jpg
 
> But Hoss?
>
>Maybe the Money they'll Spend with
>Founder Was EARNED the hard
>way?:D
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>She Don't Just Rain She Pours!
>
>
>That Girl Right There's The Perfect
>Storm!
>
>
>
>
90087hankjr.jpg


Then admire them for that.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
One thing I'm curious about is to hear from everyone that is very opposed to this and what their thoughts are about outfitters and guides? If folks believe that the scouting information makes a hunt not fair chase then any guided hunt should surely be considered not fair chase because an outfitted hunt gives someone a far superior advantage over simply getting some info on what basin to start glassing in.
 
>> But Hoss?
>>
>>Maybe the Money they'll Spend with
>>Founder Was EARNED the hard
>>way?:D
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>She Don't Just Rain She Pours!
>>
>>
>>That Girl Right There's The Perfect
>>Storm!
>>
>>
>>
>>
90087hankjr.jpg

>
>Then admire them for that.
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"

Come on hoss!

I'm trying to get a Laugh out of you!










It Won't Be Long and a 22" PISSCUTTER will be known as a Trophy that will be put on the Wall!




90087hankjr.jpg
 
There is a lot of this now day:

People hunt units they never been on before,

people live 1000 miles from big buck unit,

people have 10 days vacation, hunting is not a passion for every member of the family,

some times a western mule deer hunt is once in a life time experience,

someday your getting older and your ability to experienent with lots of locations are limited by pending natural health issues,

sometimes people don't have as much cash to spend on hunting and yet they have more money than time,

Consider as a local how long it has taken you to find your special places, how many days, how many trips, how many conversatiion,

how many times have you just stumbled on to a new hot sport,

how often, with all your efforts do you find a new hot spot,

how many years did you say you had invested in your local knowledge?

How many times have you drawn a greet tag in a distant unit and go out "cold turkey" and figured it out in two or three days, DYI?

Just saying, comparing your time, effort, and investment into your spots to a cold turkey DYI hardly seems fair.

I've had these experience personally many times, because I've never hired an outfitter or a guide unless required by law, it is damn near impossible to kill mature deer going in cold turkey, a few can do it but very very few.

Monroe Mountain is as easy a unit to hunt as there is in the lower 48, but every year guys who are pretty decent hunters, in their special places, back home, call me because they can't find any thing after a week of hunting deer or elk.

I've done the same on trips to Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, Wyoming, Nevada and Idaho, on hunts for bear, deer, elk, and antelope, most times I've come home with an unfilled tag. Why? Not enough information about the unit.

You can say what you want about the trip being about the experience and not the trophy. I say bull sh!t. That's a cop out for an outfitter to use on inexperienced clients. I have limited time and more limited money, if I wanted a "hunting experience" without a successful kill, I could go camping in Yellowstone with the rest of the "fun experience in the wild" folks, which I've done many times already, I don't need to pay an outfitter to do that for me.....ever.

My hunts are special, I want the best chance I can muster to kill the biggest animal I can.......legally.

I can't afford Brain's prices, nor can I hunt where and how he hunts, too old, but plenity of people can and some do. If the Legislature find against selling information without a license etc another way will be found, like whiskey during prohibition, because the demand is there and it's there for an understandable reason. Be careful what you regulate, as others have said.

Love finds a way.

DC
 
>One thing I'm curious about is
>to hear from everyone that
>is very opposed to this
>and what their thoughts are
>about outfitters and guides?
>If folks believe that the
>scouting information makes a hunt
>not fair chase then any
>guided hunt should surely be
>considered not fair chase because
>an outfitted hunt gives someone
>a far superior advantage over
>simply getting some info on
>what basin to start glassing
>in.

I'm opposed to outfitters on any public land.
Private can do what they want.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Oh man, that's a whole different can of night crawlers.

What few deer we have left in the west, a huge percentage are on private land and they never leave private land. I think it would scare us all half to death to know how few, of over all deer, are left on public land.

Unless we go back to the old rules about accessing private land, and we never will, I careless about deer on private land unless they are carrying a contagious diease. They don't exist to me, don't care how big they are, how many there are, if the kill them all or never kill any. They benefit public hunting in no way, in fact they are a detriment because the government counts them and justifies the number of public land tags they issue based on animals they know dang well we can't hunt. Pisses me off big time we ever even count them.

DC
 
IMHO, we can pick our poison, but OUR hunting area in many instances is ultimately going to be exposed. In the era of YouTube, Instagram, Videography, Vlogs, On-X Maps, Coordinates, etc., and the carelessness associated with broadcasting photographs, footage, etc., with prominent landmarks, it's only a matter of time before folks learn of the spots that tend to harbor the most mature animals. I don't like my spots broadcasted, frankly, but I also understand that the guy who pays these fees, isn't necessarily going to be hunting the area annually. As spots are exposed, the predator instincts may be drawn upon as we earnestly seek additional areas that may harbor other mature animals! I'd prefer not to see other hunters in the areas that I hunt, which is why I rarely expose areas, but don't hold another human being accountable for doing so, even at a price, especially if those areas are extremely limited in terms of being able to draw a tag.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-17
>AT 03:28?PM (MST)

>
>>That's a weak argument at best
>>and almost embarrasing. Slavery,
>>women not being allowed to
>>vote? Really? These
>>are examples you site to
>>back up your argument?
>>Laws were changed. Until the
>>law is changed it's perfectly
>>legal.
>>
>>It's legal and until it's illegal
>>Founder has every right to
>>continue doing what he wants.
>> It's pretty simple.
>>If you don't like it
>>change it.
>>
>>If they do pass a law
>>I hope Founder continues to
>>find great deer and offers
>>them up for no charge
>>just to piss off all
>>you cry babies and guides
>>who think the deer belong
>>to them.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I'm going to throw something out
>>>there to those of you
>>>that answered..."if it's legal, I
>>>have no problem with it."
>>>
>>>
>>>Slavery was once legal...women were not
>>>legally allowed to vote once...people
>>>are legally stoned to death
>>>in some countries....you can legally
>>>use a scope on a
>>>muzzle loader in Utah...It's legal
>>>to carry a rifle that
>>>has an adjustable turret and
>>>then shoot at an animal
>>>at 1000 + yards....You can
>>>bait deer in some states...Marijuana
>>>is becoming legal in many
>>>states....the "bump stock" attachment in
>>>the shooting in Las Vegas...I
>>>could go on!
>>>
>>>So...you Folks only have a problem
>>>with something if it's illegal???
>>>For the record...I agree and
>>>disagree with stuff regardless of
>>>the legality.
>>>
>>>So to answers the OP's question...Yes
>>>I do see a problem
>>>with it. To me, this
>>>is another instance in which
>>>you take the true meaning
>>>of the word "hunting" out
>>>of the equation. These type
>>>of people are not welcome
>>>in my camp...and we probably
>>>wouldn't miss each other LOL.
>>>
>>>
>>>56 years old.
>
>Thanks for making your stance clear....no
>matter what it is, you
>would be fine with it
>if it's legal. Read my
>post carefully and you will
>see the point I was
>trying to make. Embarrassing"...so you
>have bump stocks for sale?
>DOH!

You could play that game all day long. Bump stock? How about you...do you own a black rifle? Semi auto? Handgun? Muzzle loader? Pellet gun? Which level of evil gun are YOU arbitrarily OK with? Maybe go over to a peta web forum and clamor on about how just because it's legal to hunt and kill animals doesn't make it right. I think they call this the slippery slope argument. A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy after all.


4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
Go hunt to play the game. Life is about experiences not possessions. Don't judge the quality of your experience based on who profits doing something similar or their success. Hunt for you. You'll be a lot happier. If its just about how good a buck you get then quit hunting and go collect little figurines. I wish Brian much luck in his new business.
 
Just Utards being Utards, and they wonder why sportsmen from other states hate them.

Hey founder why don't you do this in your own damn state?
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Dec-17-17
>>AT 03:28?PM (MST)

>>
>>>That's a weak argument at best
>>>and almost embarrasing. Slavery,
>>>women not being allowed to
>>>vote? Really? These
>>>are examples you site to
>>>back up your argument?
>>>Laws were changed. Until the
>>>law is changed it's perfectly
>>>legal.
>>>
>>>It's legal and until it's illegal
>>>Founder has every right to
>>>continue doing what he wants.
>>> It's pretty simple.
>>>If you don't like it
>>>change it.
>>>
>>>If they do pass a law
>>>I hope Founder continues to
>>>find great deer and offers
>>>them up for no charge
>>>just to piss off all
>>>you cry babies and guides
>>>who think the deer belong
>>>to them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm going to throw something out
>>>>there to those of you
>>>>that answered..."if it's legal, I
>>>>have no problem with it."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Slavery was once legal...women were not
>>>>legally allowed to vote once...people
>>>>are legally stoned to death
>>>>in some countries....you can legally
>>>>use a scope on a
>>>>muzzle loader in Utah...It's legal
>>>>to carry a rifle that
>>>>has an adjustable turret and
>>>>then shoot at an animal
>>>>at 1000 + yards....You can
>>>>bait deer in some states...Marijuana
>>>>is becoming legal in many
>>>>states....the "bump stock" attachment in
>>>>the shooting in Las Vegas...I
>>>>could go on!
>>>>
>>>>So...you Folks only have a problem
>>>>with something if it's illegal???
>>>>For the record...I agree and
>>>>disagree with stuff regardless of
>>>>the legality.
>>>>
>>>>So to answers the OP's question...Yes
>>>>I do see a problem
>>>>with it. To me, this
>>>>is another instance in which
>>>>you take the true meaning
>>>>of the word "hunting" out
>>>>of the equation. These type
>>>>of people are not welcome
>>>>in my camp...and we probably
>>>>wouldn't miss each other LOL.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>56 years old.
>>
>>Thanks for making your stance clear....no
>>matter what it is, you
>>would be fine with it
>>if it's legal. Read my
>>post carefully and you will
>>see the point I was
>>trying to make. Embarrassing"...so you
>>have bump stocks for sale?
>>DOH!
>
>You could play that game all
>day long. Bump stock?
> How about you...do you
>own a black rifle?
>Semi auto? Handgun?
>Muzzle loader? Pellet gun?
> Which level of
>evil gun are YOU arbitrarily
>OK with? Maybe
>go over to a peta
>web forum and clamor on
>about how just because it's
>legal to hunt and kill
>animals doesn't make it right.
> I think they call
>this the slippery slope argument.
> A rat is a
>pig is a dog is
>a boy after all.
>
>
>
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg


So you have no problem with anything, as long as it's legal as well? I simply commented that I had an opinion based solely on that (my opinion) and wasn't going to hide behind the weak argument of ...."well, if it's legal, it must be OK." There is a TON of stuff that's legal and NOT OK with me...I guess maybe not in your world? Slow crowd tonight??? LOL!
 
>Go hunt to play the game.
> Life is about experiences
>not possessions. Don't judge
>the quality of your experience
>based on who profits doing
>something similar or their success.
> Hunt for you.
>You'll be a lot happier.
> If its just about
>how good a buck you
>get then quit hunting and
>go collect little figurines.
>I wish Brian much luck
>in his new business.

From a guy who couldn't find dirt without a guide showing him. For the 10000x, we don't want the Texas model in the west.

Puff, I agree, and I am one


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Ask for opinion and then talk trash about people who give it?????

Hossblur your idea that you don't have a dog in the fight or don't care just did a swirly down the bowl.

Its probably long past time for you to start collecting stamps. I am pretty sure the hunting community would be much better off with out your participation.
 
In his own state, a buck with two point on both sides is considered a "trophy buck". The only exception is that there are a couple of limited entry areas and some private CWMU's that have good bucks, but you either have to wait a lifetime to draw or tag, or pay your life's savings to hunt the private.

I don't have a problem with Founder making back his gas and grub money that he has spent scouting by selling coordinates.

My big concern is that he is giving away the location of some good areas and he has no control over who else gets that information in the future. Down the road in future years, spots with great potential can easily be overrun with hunters that didn't do the work or even pay the money to find them.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-17 AT 11:44AM (MST)[p]"I'm opposed to outfitters on any public land."

Then I am glad you are not in charge. And I would suspect that 90%+ hunters would side with me.

When I get picked for Utah for an elk hunt, I will be using an outfitter. Currently 60 years old, I will be hunting that unit once in my life and don't have time or money to make multiple trips there to scout and get things figured out. If that makes me a wimp, so be it, but I see nothing at all wrong with that. I have done plenty of DIY hunts, all but 2 in the last 35 years.

My best DIY hunt was a pack in mule deer hunt. Brother and I backpacked in 4 miles and I killed a MM 5 miles from the truck. He and I packed him out on our backs, just like we did his cow elk this year. No outfitter involved in the mule deer hunt but someone did tell me that I should try that drainage, however no money changed hands. But I guess that still means it wasn't a "real" DIY hunt.

You can drive across the country, or hire someone to fly you there. Neither is right or wrong.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-17 AT 03:34PM (MST)[p]"For the 10000x, we don't want the Texas model in the west."

Apples and oranges in the current discussion. But you are right, the grapes are all sour here in Texas.

But to your actual statement, I would NEVER want Western states to become privatized and lose public land access/hunting privileges. I suspect they are as precious to me as they are to you. Look at my comments on corner hoping if you want to see my views. I would be for the "taking" of those corners from private to allow for public access to the land that belongs to us all but is locked up. Not right.

Texas IS private for the most part, and we do pretty well with it, but I will fight for the right to keep our public lands in the west, and their use of it by the public.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>"For the 10000x, we don't want
>the Texas model in the
>west."
>
>Apples and oranges in the current
>discussion. But you are
>right, the grapes are all
>sour here in Texas.
>
>txhunter58
>
>venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore
>I am)


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-18-17 AT 12:26PM (MST)[p]>Go hunt to play the game.
> Life is about experiences
>not possessions. Don't judge
>the quality of your experience
>based on who profits doing
>something similar or their success.
> Hunt for you.
>You'll be a lot happier.
> If its just about
>how good a buck you
>get then quit hunting and
>go collect little figurines.
>I wish Brian much luck
>in his new business.

Tri

So we agree, " if its just about how good a buck you get then quit hunting"

The fight is with guides and "consultants" about who is screwing up all the big buck hunting.

As usual, the residents and diy guys are never in the conversation.

You and tx hunter might not like it, but the Texas model of game management is the monster most western hunters fear. We see the continual capitalisation as another step down that road. And I say that as a Utah, fully aware how far down that road we are, and how that scares Wyoming, Idaho. Montana.

Ill gladly take that 90% bet whenever you want.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>Ask for opinion and then talk
>trash about people who give
>it?????
>
>Hossblur your idea that you don't
>have a dog in the
>fight or don't care just
>did a swirly down the
>bowl.
>
>Its probably long past time for
>you to start collecting stamps.
> I am pretty sure
>the hunting community would be
>much better off with out
>your participation.

If your "community" is hunting, to whom do I send my resignation?

See Tri, I had a short day today. Thought, "I'm gonna run out see what the geese are doing". Went home,threw in the 870, loaded the lab, in on my way.

In your "community" you want to see what the geese are doing, you call an outfitter line up a date, inquire as to the Michelin rating of the chef, thread count of the sheets. 2 months later someone hauls you out.

There is a world of difference between deciding you want to go hunt, and calling someone to take you. If your not sure what, then don't make the call, just go hunt.

"The hunting community", funny, even for u

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I have no problem with it.

I have a hard time understanding the legality of this type of proposed law against it. Can you prohibit selling your knowledge? It is not classified knowledge. It is not knowledge proprietarily owned by a company you have a nondisclosure agreement with.

Even if it does pass, I think it makes this type of consulting illegal only in WY. Meaning if your consulting business resides in UT, you can sell personal WY type information all day long since it is not against the law to do so in UT. It would only hurt scouting services registered in WY.

Age:41
 
I have no problem with it.

I have a hard time understanding the legality of this type of proposed law against it. Can you prohibit selling your knowledge? It is not classified knowledge. It is not knowledge proprietarily owned by a company you have a nondisclosure agreement with.

Even if it does pass, I think it makes this type of consulting illegal only in WY. Meaning if your consulting business resides in UT, you can sell personal WY type information all day long since it is not against the law to do so in UT. It would only hurt scouting services registered in WY.

Age:41
 
>I have a hard time understanding
>the legality of this type
>of proposed law against it.
>Can you prohibit selling your
>knowledge?

Aren't lawyers, accountants, and doctors just selling knowledge? That is the essence of all service-based businesses. They don't sell a product, they sell their time and experience.

Once something is commercialized, it can be regulated via licensing/permitting. Whereas this discussion involves interstate commerce (Wyoming, possibly to another state, via Utah) you could even say its a specifically enumerated clause of the Constitution. The commerce clause is one of the most debated portions of the Constitution, but it is an argument that could be made.

I don't have strong feelings either way on this subject, just that I don't see the common "unconstitutional" argument as a good one. There certainly is precedent of regulating the commercialization of a public resource, so how a court would decide is one I don't know. But I can see the train of thought on the pro-licensing side.

Also, people are forgetting the photography permits that are almost certainly required on National Forest land since photographs are part of the package.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
BugleB there are still some stompers on some general units in utah. I know we could do better as far as quality and I don't disagree with the 2 pt comment. My buddy if he'd strip the velvet off his buck this year has the Utah #2 typical archery buck is what I was told. And it didn't come from the wasatch front. The thing is a tank. And he is a wyoming resident he used to live here and he is familiar with the unit he took him on. He didn't hunt super hard to kill this buck. I wish I had his luck archery hunting. I do see your take on the wyoming thing and people finding these honey holes later down the road and the quality paying for it in the end.

"We don't have a gun problem we have prescription drug problem."
 
The online services like Legal Zoom have gotten around the licensing requirements and ethical issues of practicing without a license by not giving ?legal advice? or ?legal services? and only providing information and software that individuals do their own work with.

So, I am not sure I would classify what a lawyer does as just providing their knowledge or information for licensing purposes. Legal services that require a license to practice go well beyond just telling someone what the law says or where they can find it.

I think the protected speech is a valid argument here. Free speech is a fundamental right, and therefore triggers the much higher burden of strict scrutiny to justify the government intrusion. I have no idea what way the court would go on that, but it certainly is not an easy answer, as far as I am concerned.

From a non-constitutional perspective, and just a criminal defense view, Founder has brought up an interesting potential defense. While the scouting and the obtaining of the information takes place in Wyoming, that is not the prohibited conduct. The prohibited conduct is the selling of the obtained information. If he is not in the state of Wyoming, then the prohibited act is not happening in Wyoming. How does the state of Wyoming gain jurisdiction over him?

This would make a fascinating law school case study. Of course, I'll need those GPS coordinates and reports to review to fully understand all the issues! :)
 
>I don't have any heart burn
>over a basic informational package
>containing access points and areas
>that typically hold deer. I
>am not ?sold? on the
>idea of selling individual deer,
>but fail to see how
>it has a ?major negative
>impact? to the overall herd.
>
>
>If I am reading this law
>correctly founder could sell a
>package that contained information such
>as access, trails, basins that
>hold deer, but not an
>individual deer.
>
>Is this correct JM77?

Affirmative HtW
 
>The online services like Legal Zoom
>have gotten around the licensing
>requirements and ethical issues of
>practicing without a license by
>not giving ?legal advice? or
>?legal services? and only providing
>information and software that individuals
>do their own work with.

Fair point. I'd counter it with the new online real estate service that tried a similar argument by collecting a fee and then providing contract forms to buyers and sellers to negotiate a real estate contract between themselves.

The Division said they were practicing real estate without a license and forced them to get licensed and hire licensed agents. So, it really is very situationally dependent.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
Bob hires outfitter Robb for a trophy deer hunt in unit that harbors giant deer. Bob kills a monster. Bob tells multiple friends of a couple other gorillas that are in Robbs licensed territory only a mile or so from Robbs base camp. The following year Bobs friends friends wallop 2 pigs. Later we find out that Bobs friend received $$ for the info once the hunters were successful. Is it penis envy on my part because I think it's not fair? Is it legal that the friend received $$? Does Robb have a legal avenue to go after the Friend who sold the info and was only paid once the 2 hunters were successful?
 
First define "friend" cause that doesn't seem to fit. When is the last time your charged a "friend" to give them the location of a "honey hole"

"Bob hires outfitter Robb for a trophy deer hunt in unit that harbors giant deer."

If that were true, doubtful a friend of a friend would be hunting there next year as it would take many years of applying.

That said, I get your drift, and no, there is not anything anyone could do about it legally. Something akin to your scenario happens every year when a big animal gets killed and the location is shared. I have known some friendships to end over such things.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I'd like to read more about this example you're citing. I've never seen it and not finding anything on it in a google search. Can you message me more detail to use in a search? What state(s) this ban is in, etc.???

Sharing information (fact) and advice (educated opinion) are for sure different.


>>The online services like Legal Zoom
>>have gotten around the licensing
>>requirements and ethical issues of
>>practicing without a license by
>>not giving ?legal advice? or
>>?legal services? and only providing
>>information and software that individuals
>>do their own work with.
>
>Fair point. I'd counter it with
>the new online real estate
>service that tried a similar
>argument by collecting a fee
>and then providing contract forms
>to buyers and sellers to
>negotiate a real estate contract
>between themselves.
>
>The Division said they were practicing
>real estate without a license
>and forced them to get
>licensed and hire licensed agents.
>So, it really is very
>situationally dependent.
>
>Grizzly
>
>-----------------------------------------
>
>"It's time to revisit the widely
>accepted principle in the United
>States and Canada that game
>is a public resource."

>-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as
>quoted in Anchorage Daily News
>


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 09:21AM (MST)[p]Friend of a friend unknown to you. And Bobs friend friend pays Bobs friend $$ when successful.

After my post I may not have a friend anymore. Haha

Actually this did happen in a very desirable trophy unit in AZ.

Anyway. I'm sure I'll see someone on their cell phone talking today while driving to town this morning. I need to get over it.
 
It reminds me of a quote attributed to the Dalai Llama. I will alter it for this scenario:

"Man sacrifices his [time in the outdoors] in order to make money. Then he sacrifices money to recuperate his [time in the outdoors]. And then he is so anxious about [killing a trophy] that he does not enjoy the [hunt itself]; the result being that he does not [enjoy the hunt or the trophy]."

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 09:23AM (MST)[p]Finally!

I lit into founder on the other forum. I honestly posted this one to guage if my reaction was shared. Appreciate last handful of guys for discussing it.

Lawyers. My concern expands past Founder. Its the next "innovator", and the one after. 15yrs ago this service wouldnt be possible. So it seems disingenuous that the "if its legal" defense is used.

Founder blew off my question about he(or another) setting up a gun that fires remotely. Its under research now.

Real time scouting for GPS guided bullets. Similar to lighting a target in the military.

GPS trackers(darts, ear tags) using nano tech.

I think Founder found a grey area(I realize he isn't the only one).
I just feel the "its legal" line is a cop out.

It just seems the "legal" was set up decades ago when outfitters and boot leather were the only game in town. That is not true any longer.

And in the end, hunters are supposed to be conservationist first, killers second.





"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 10:50AM (MST)[p]I'm going to keep harping at the big picture and not the specific behavior.

Outfitters and guides are tools, like rifles, scopes, range finders, etc. to enhance finding and killing. Information of deer locations is another tool, used by a hunter to improve his killing chances. At this time all are legal. We all vary in our opinions of which legal tools are fair, ethical, fair chase or just plan ole decent. And vary in our opinions we certainly do. I'm okay with anyone and everyone's opinion on a "legal" tool to enhance killing. Not hunting.......... enhance killing.

The bottom line, and my biggest concern is not the legal tool you use or are opposed to. The only thing I'm concerned with is the impact on the deer herd population and the long term amount of hunting opportunity for public land hunters.

Every tool, new or ancient, makes it easier to kill. As the number of tools increase and their efficiency improve our killing capabilities, the more we threaten the long term survival of the deer population on public lands, to the degree that we need to reduce, and reduce and further reduce the number of hunters who can enter the field each year.

On private land, I could careless, kill them with a heat seeking missle if you like, those deer and how many there are, are none of my business nor anyone elses other than the land owner.

This issue is simply another decision about whether we are going to allow a new tool to be used to kill a greater number of deer each year and how that effects population and the corresponding number of tags that can be sold each year to hunt a limited number of deer, on public land.

DC
 
Lumpy agree 100%.

I'm only addressing public land.

I don't believe WYOGA intent one of purity, but it does need addressing, and I feel beyond scouting, needs to extend to all commercialization of wildlife. Otherwise there will be another innovator exploiting grey areas.

Hunters have traditionally limited ourselves, regardless of legality. That's where I'm at.

I greatly dislike Founders business. I've never met Brian. I admire the effort he puts into his PERSONAL success. I'd break bread with him anytime(but he probably stays away from bread, he has to stay in shape). I don't feel its about him, its about businesses like his that seem to want to push the envelope.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 11:44AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 11:43?AM (MST)

Doesn?t a business operating on Federal land have to have a special use permit, and carry insurance? Anytime money is made off of federal land, a permit needs to be secured for each district that they operate in. Even if a business is flying a drone for marketing or advertising they need to secure permits.

That being said, if everything is kosher than sell your services away. Good for you on thinking outside of the box for a way to raise money.

Now let's talk about Colorado... I need some advice on where to go and burn my points when I get home from the deployment this fall!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 12:05PM (MST)[p]Sure I get it.

That's why I argue its the system, i.e.: the regulator system, the FG and the Legislature that is broken. Humans are going to innovate for ever, it's the systems job to decide which innovations stay and which don't and they have, when it comes to mule deer, clearly dropped the ball....... many, many decades before Founder got out of the crib.

There are way more harmful tools, be used to kill deer , than unlicensed information sharing. I just see what he's doing as a small drop in an ocean of hunting tool issues and the long term deer hunting life style.

DC
 
PM sent

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
The part of the system that is broken is the fact that every tag is not considered a dead deer. Our wildlife agencies keep betting on hunt failure while not being able to calculate for the ingenuity of hunters. If a correct harvest objective was set and each tag was considered a dead animal then how you punched your tag wouldn't matter in the least bit.
 
"Founder blew off my question about he(or another) setting up a gun that fires remotely. Its under research now."

It is more than "under research". A few years ago someone in Texas had a company where he had a gun set up and you paid him to aim and shoot it at game animals remotely from your computer. Me and a lot of other hunters in Texas raised a stink about it and got a law passed to make that practice illegal. If someone tries it in other states, I am sure the same thing will happen.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
"On private land, I could careless, kill them with a heat seeking missle if you like, those deer and how many there are, are none of my business nor anyone elses other than the land owner"

The parks and wildlife depts. will disagree on that point, as would I. The deer and elk on others land are owned by you and I, not the landowner. If private land is allowed anything ( say hunting with a spotlight at night) then they will be 100% success and that means less tags for us hunting public. Not something I support

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 12:45PM (MST)[p]I've followed this thread since it started, but since I personally don't have a dog in this fight, at least not at this point, and I know people on both sides of the issue, I'm not sure whether to laugh, cry, scream, ignore it or just continue reading. I have no idea how this issue should or can be resolved, but one thing I do know. Except for the fact that we are talking about trophy animals, Founder's business and this issue and thread would likely not exist.
I certainly hope this gets resolved in an amiable way and doesn't flow over into my preferred neck of the woods.

Age: 76
 
Is this still the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA?

If I go for a hike and tell a guy...."hey, saw a buck up on that ridge, get water over there, camp over there".....then everyones cool with it

but

If he buys me a hot dog, or gives me a water bottle, for the same info....I am going to HELL!

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
It's a limited entry unit for Non Residents. It is not limited for residents. This area is going to have to go limited entry for everyone. That is the only way to NOT wipe out a trophy area.

I am more off put by outfitter welfare in wilderness areas. Particularly on federal land. That's baloney. I mean, they already get that huge bone thrown to them with that, now they are trying to get their competition legislated out of business. Happens in a lot of industries, so I don't blame them for trying, but both services are helping people kill bigger and more deer than they would other wise. If the goal is to reduce the harvest of big deer to save the herd, the only fair way is to reduce the number of tags. Or reduce the length of the season, or move the dates later so the deer are harder to find.

Scouting services are not a slam dunk. I paid for one in CO, my buddy and I drew a limited entry rifle deer tag that took 5 points. We got the service, liked what he did, but went in ourselves a couple weeks earlier anyway and checked out other places he hadn't been to and some he had. We both found very large deer and were sure we'd bag some monsters.

The hunt was full of high wind early and then it started snowing and we saw ZERO bucks the entire hunt. The G & F had moved those hunt dates back a week past Labor day due to previous "hunter hiker conflicts" and that made all the difference in the world.

I think he's doing nothing wrong, outfitters crying because their jobs are getting harder. It is all a function of limited supply and increasing demand.

Also, sidebar, free speech is a little different from speech for renumeration.
 
I have no problem with Founder's consulting service. I'd rather have Founder selling location information then all the guide/outfitter crap in a few other states I've hunted. Just look at the ridiculous trail cam stuff on the Strip.

I would never use a guide/outfitter unless I was forced to (AK Dall sheep hunt, etc.), but I would consider buying information like Founder's for a OIL deer or elk hunt.

Age: 45
 
I think it's a great idea honestly. If you have been a hunter long enough you have come across the odd years where you don't have the time to scout or other personal things just flat get in the way of either scouting or hunting time. Having little time to scout or few days to hunt. With how busy my work has been this year leading to me only having 6 days to hunt this entire year i'd gladly pay that price for some info if it was truthful. You still have to go find the animal, its by no means just giving you a gps tracker and saying heres the animal we have 5 spotters surrounding the canyon go in here at this time and shoot him. I Commend you on the service you offer Founder.



-Cass
 
Just to piss off all these whiners.

Founder. I am going to buy your scouting package if I draw this year!

Thanks for convincing me guys.

THIS IS THE UNITED STATES GUYS! You would think you were all a bunch of whining Democrats....with guns...LOL

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
How many times has there been a story posted on this website that went something like this:

"I scouted a huge buck 1 week before the season and had him patterned. Went back opening morning, and he was nowhere to be found!"

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
I would agree that what I offer is just another tool for increasing ones chance of harvesting a trophy buck. It's one of many tools. My question, why is it that this particular tool (not me, the information. ha ha) needs to be outlawed but none of the other tools that are far more valuable on the cutting board? A centerfire rifle results in many more dead deer than my information, as does so many things.

My belief is that most people don't want to give up the tools they possess and use, so in an effort to give the game a better chance of survival from other people, they'd like to see tools others use outlawed. Cause it doesn't affect them.

Most of the guys on their high horses because they don't use a guide or consulting service, still use other tools to increase their chance of success. Of course in their mind the tools they use are OK and ethical, but those who use tools that they wish not to are ?the problem?.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
Good point Tex....also...

I put him to bed....woke up the next day....never saw him again....

Scouting a buck for some guys is in NO way even remotely close to a guarantee the buck will be there.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Tristate, you discussed you idea of big game management in your Office when I visited you there. i.e.: if F&G sold every tag, expecting every tag would be filled, at which time the system would be managing wildlife like private land owners manage their live stock, and Game Farms are managed now, to some extent. I think your saying...... did it on public land. That way the numbers of animals and the age class of animals would be carefully controlled.

That way hunters/ shooters could kill them with a rock or a tank, it would 't matter. If a guy wanted to hunt naked with a spear, more power to him. If a different guy wanted to hunt in June, with a spot light and a machine gun, have fun, its your tag and you get to kill one deer, how you kill it and who helps you, is entirely up to you.

While I agree in concept, in the present world, while we still have public land hunting it not likely we'll ever see management get that sophisticated when applied to wild game management regulations. Hell most hunters, not these here on the hunting forums but the bulk of the people who buy a tag think all our big game herds are still here at the pleasure of Mother Nature and don't have the slightest knowledge as to how the "system" controls populations densities and age classes of the males.

So we must deal with the world in which we are presently living.

But....... it's never harmful to lay out the future because, some day, we'll will be doing exactly as you stated. Too bad though.

DC
 
Ever heard: "That is why they call it hunting, not killing".

When we get to where they are synonymous, we will be in big trouble and would have lost all the fun. I could have a 350+ elk on my wall by driving less than 20 miles from my house. Guaranteed 1 day hunt! And would cost way less than what I have spent trying to get one put there. But the memory would be sour and what do I tell people when they ask for the story?

The gap between that and paying for the information of where to go after a trophy but truly wild animal, where he still has the advantage, is enormous.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
>I would agree that what I
>offer is just another tool
>for increasing ones chance of
>harvesting a trophy buck. It's
>one of many tools. My
>question, why is it that
>this particular tool (not me,
>the information. ha ha) needs
>to be outlawed but none
>of the other tools that
>are far more valuable on
>the cutting board? A centerfire
>rifle results in many more
>dead deer than my information,
>as does so many things.
>
>
>My belief is that most people
>don't want to give up
>the tools they possess and
>use, so in an effort
>to give the game a
>better chance of survival from
>other people, they'd like to
>see tools others use outlawed.
>Cause it doesn't affect them.
>
>
>Most of the guys on their
>high horses because they don't
>use a guide or consulting
>service, still use other tools
>to increase their chance of
>success. Of course in their
>mind the tools they use
>are OK and ethical, but
>those who use tools that
>they wish not to are
>?the problem?.
>
>Brian Latturner

Brian, paint with a broad brush much?

I'll give you an example of a "tool" that I took away that impacts big-game even though I have access to it.

Aerial scouting for big-game, myself and JM77 pushed that regulation change.

One of the guys I hunt elk with is a pilot with the civil air partrol and for the price of avgas I could have flown to scout. I have the time and the money to do it.

But, because I value fair chase hunting over my need to kill a buck, bull, ram, whatever, I chose to push the regulation change.

The sad part of this whole deal, is that those justifying the means to the end (a dead buck) by buying your scouting packages are robbing themselves of the best part of the hunt.

I also want to make one more comment that you used to justify your service. Something along the lines of "well if you waited 6 years for a tag, would you go in blind".

The answer for me is absolutely and I've done it countless times on tags that have taken a lot longer to draw. Including a desert sheep tag in AZ, that I will NEVER be able to draw again there. The best part of that hunt was the research and scouting I did prior to the hunt.

It would have been a bummer and not nearly as rewarding if I would have drove down there the night before and followed a guide to a ram on opening morning and plugged it.

For some the means is more important than the end...others just the opposite. I reckon those buying your scouting packages fall into the latter group, dead buck at any price.

Pretty sad what hunting has become, and its all about the money and commercialization.

As a good friend of mine said one time, and its absolutely true, "There are 2 things that will make people things they normally wouldn't...elk and money".

By God he was right...this topic is a perfect example.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 03:55PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17 AT 02:55?PM (MST)

Well that's not excactly what would happen, but regardless, we need to do far more than we are doing to preserve the herd numbers and life style than we are presently doing with ALL our tools.

I read somewhere...... moderation in all things. Seems like good advice.

DC
 
Hey Founder the proposed bill reads:

23-3-310. Sale of wildlife location and identification information for hunting prohibited:

No person shall advertise or provide to a hunter for remuneration the location and identification information of any previously scouted big or trophy game animal for the purpose of aiding the hunter in the taking of that specific previously scouted big or trophy game animal.

Just sell the location information and don't supply any identification (photos) information. The bill states both and doesn't say anything about it being prohibited to sell one or the other individually.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-19-17
>AT 02:55?PM (MST)

>
>Well that's not excactly what would
>happen, but regardless, we
>need to do far more
>than we are doing to
>preserve the herd numbers and
>life style than we are
>presently doing with ALL our
>tools.
>
>I read somewhat...... moderation in all
>things. Seems like
>good advice.
>
>DC

I agree!


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 

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