Utah Sportsman Ranks 10th.

Deerlove,
If you go back 25 years and look at the direction we were headed you'd know that the real questions is....without a voice whatelse would be have lost besides some stream access. But that's not how the gimmie gimmie crowd looks at things.
 
And I presume by the "gimmie gimmie crowd" you're referring to those that want to privatize/commercialize public wildlife and restrict access to public waters by "greedy fishermen"?

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
M73-

We lost stream access at least in part as a result of DP?s powerful voice. He lobbied against sportsmen on this issue and in favor of closing public stream access.

By the way, those are not echos that you are hearing. Rather, those are something called facts.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-22-18 AT 08:49PM (MST)[p]Hawkeye,
No it's an echo chamber. That's why you drug your woes onto here after getting no results in the real world. You won't get an arguement from me on stream access, I never agreed with that. But I also understand that having a strong political voice also means I may not always agree but overall still give support.

Here is an expample... many many Utahans will vote for Mitt in the election. Does this mean that they are pro choice? And no longer pro life? Because it is a known fact that when Mitt ran in Massachusetts he was very clear and outspoken about being pro choice. Politics is a dirty business, it's hard to always be right.
 
>Deerlove,
>If you go back 25 years
>and look at the direction
>we were headed you'd know
>that the real questions is....without
>a voice whatelse would be
>have lost besides some stream
>access. But that's not
>how the gimmie gimmie crowd
>looks at things.


How about N. Utah becoming a CWMU. How about 200 tags. Over $7 million dollars? Lets start with what we know was lost first.

You'd be hard pressed to show non LE units that are remarkably improved since they took over.

In fact, its easy to show LE units that have gone downward(pauns).

THEY DID NOT SAVE THE DEER. And they aren't a voice for the average sportsman. Both of which were sold to us, 25 yrs ago.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I am not a big SFW guy but please keep it honest the Pauns was not hurt by SFW the big issues with the Pauns was Highway 89 and Arizona late hunto. I think SFW did help with the fence I might be wrong and if I am I am sure you guys will be glade to point it out.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-18 AT 07:04AM (MST)[p]>Hoss,
>Please define "average sportsman"

Pretty easy. They would be the guys that aren't involved in the Saturday night auction.

The guys who hunt public land($FW still neutral?)

Guys who fish streams

Any of them getting "a voice from $FW?

Besides. Every time THE DON shoots off his mouth $FW apologists sprint in here to tell us "Don doesn't represent us, he's not our leader", etc, etc. So which is it Muley?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>I am not a big SFW
>guy but please keep it
>honest the Pauns was not
>hurt by SFW the big
>issues with the Pauns was
>Highway 89 and Arizona late
>hunto. I think SFW did
>help with the fence I
>might be wrong and if
>I am I am sure
>you guys will be glade
>to point it out.

I am keeping it honest, you made my point. $FW can't stop a highway, nor a neighboring state. Nor more importantly a bad winter.

But lets be honest. After 25 yrs of "saving the mule deer", millions of dollars, lost control of WB, why isn't Utah the mule deer capital of the world?

Does Colorado not have winter? Roads? People?

How about Idaho?

If you personally hired them to "save the mule deer" on your ranch. After 25 years, and millions of dollars. Would you still employ them after seeing your herd is much the same as it was 25 yrs ago?

The honest answer is no. No you wouldn't.

No they didn't save them.

No the don't represent the majority of Utah sportsmen. In fact they have fueled the divisions amongst us.




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Some might argue (rightfully so) that #10 is not a sportsmen voice at all, but a voice for a special interest group trying to shut sportsmen out.

Don Peay is on the record saying he wants to exclude hunters and completely privatize hunting. That is not a voice for sportsmen at all. Just because I start a group that is titled ?Skinny guys with hair? does not make me skinny or any less bald.
 
Hoss,

SFW has done a lot. What other group has come even close to producing what SFW has done?

Hasn't other groups tried to fix the deer herd as well? We better fire them as well.
 
So Hossblur, you like to bring up the stream access. Will you please let others and myself know what streams in the state it involves. What is the stream access coalition.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-18 AT 09:37AM (MST)[p]hoss,
SFW did build the fence on the Pauns and it has made huge improvements on the herd. The Pauns really struggled for awhile and has rebounded. Much to do with fencing, water tanks being filled and being built. But is sounded good the throw it in there. So tell me how much time over the past 25 years have you spent on the Pauns?

Average hunter....you definition is not quit the same as...say Lee Tracy's or others. It's not the same as mine. The term "average hunter" is claimed by those that want their own way and have nothing better to support their view than the voiceless masses.

I firmly believe I am an average hunter but others would not classify me as that. I hunt mostly public land, I don't buy auction permits. But I do attend banquets, expos, and I do hunt and fish other states. I've also been involved in the political BS of Utahs wildlife management for nearly 40 years. And the fact is without the political voice of the SFW we would be worse off than we are now. Tell if you remeber when the DWR had a gal named Jody who was hell bent on closing bear hunting in Utah. Tell me since the SFW how often people like her have been in position to hurt hunters. Tell me about losing most of our deer herd in the early 90s. Tell me how if the SFW would have pushed to cap the hunters we wouldn't have completely shot out our resource. Tell who was going to jump in and push back on the Forrest Service shooting all the elk off the Monroe. I'll tell you wasn't going to do all of that on their own...."AVERAGE HUNTERS"
 
Where are they on public land? We agree the average hunter in Utah hunts public. Where is "the voice"?

I know where THE DON is on it.

Is $fw now claiming credit for increases in bears?

But your "it could have been a lot worse" argument is worthless. We came out of record winters end of 80' s,then again in early 90' s. Of course numbers were down.

But look around. If $FW management is such a shinning success, why aren't they running all the western states? Do those folks just hate deer?

Like I said. Go to the Saturday auction(if u can get in). Those are the guys that $FW represents. I doubt even you would call them average.

Muley. Looks like a soft winter. We need not hear about $fw success with deer, unless mother nature is now a member.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Birdman asked: "So Hossblur, you like to bring up the stream access. Will you please let others and myself know what streams in the state it involves. What is the stream access coalition."

I'm not Hossblur, but like to fancy myself as one that knows a bit about this subject. So I'll take a stab at your questions, even if they are not exactly sincere.

I can't list all the streams by name, because there are just way too many. HB 141, which SFW supported at the time, cut off approximately 2,000 miles of streams in Utah from public use. Keep in mind every inch of those 2,000 miles is public water. 2,000 miles of public water taken away from public use. Pretty sad when you think about it, and even more sad that a "sportsmen" group supported it.

What is the stream access coalition? Here you go: http://utahstreamaccess.org/
 
I agree Hoss there is some stuff not to be desired about SFW and diffently there is much needed voice for the average hunter with in the ranks of SFW. Yes they have diffently divided the sportsmans within this state and from other states that has interest in Utah hunting and I welcome out of state opinions. SFW has did some great things for this state especially in the early years and the stream access is a especially bad thing for the anyone in the state or visiting this state. I have not did my fare share of being a watchdog of such groups SFW & MDF I plan on trying to get more involved in the near future now that my kids are mostly raised. Maybe if we get the right pressure we might can get these groups working for the average hunter because I know one thing by complaining about them is not going get any where with them and the power that they have already gained is way more than we can gain with out them. I am being honest.
 
>Is agree Hoss there is some
>stuff not to be desired
>about SFW and diffently there
>is much needed voice for
>the average hunter with in
>the ranks of SFW. Yes
>they have diffently divided the
>sportsmans within this state and
>from other states that has
>interest in Utah hunting and
>I welcome out of state
>opinions. SFW has did some
>great things for this state
>especially in the early years
>and the stream access is
>a especially bad thing for
>the anyone in the state
>or visiting this state. I
>have not did my fare
>share of being a watchdog
>of such groups SFW &
>MDF I plan on trying
>to get more involved in
>the near future now that
>my kids are mostly raised.
>Maybe if we get the
>right pressure we might can
>get these groups working for
>the average hunter because I
>know one thing by complaining
>about them is not going
>get any where with them
>and the power that they
>have already gained is
>way more than we can
>gain with out them. I
>am being honest.



That's the biggest nut kick. In their early years they ACTUALLY did represent the average. They organized for prop 5, and deserve credit.

However, that time passed. As did their work for average.

THE DON has been the driving force behind selling Utah wildlife. That can't be denied. And until $fw seperates itself from him, they are represented by the 10th most powerful.

But we aren't.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-18 AT 01:24PM (MST)[p]Cody-

I agree that sportsmen often disagree about details of various issues such as how many permits to issue on a particular unit or how to allocate the permits between weapon types. However, is it too much to expect that the most powerful sportsmen group in the state that has been funded heavily with our public resources, would use its "strong political voice" to protect and defend the rights of sportsmen to fish and access our public waters? That seems like a black and white issue if you are a sportsman or a sportmen's group.

Unfortunately, SFW and DP chose to fight against sportsmen and their public stream access rights in the initial fight and now that the issue is heating up again they have chosen to sit on their hands and remain "neutral." This makes no sense unless that group is more interested in currying favor with politicians, ranchers, landowners and developers than the sportsmen that they purport to represent.

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-18 AT 11:52AM (MST)[p]An average sportsman is someone who doesn't freak out if something is killed for another reason besides antler management & procurement.

It's someone who wants a decent chance of killing a decent animal without spending a fortune in time and money. They like opportunities that they can routinely share with friends. Surprisingly, meat procurement might even be a consideration in their pursuit of big game instead of an afterthought.

I think it's safe to say the "average sportsman" doesn't routinely spend/plan $3000 & 2 weeks of time hunting for 125 lbs of dog food with a set of antlers that scores 191 & 7/8" I would define that type of "sportsman" as a trophy hunter who is anything but average. They resemble Captain Ahab's monomania in Mobydick.

I think trophies & trophy hunters are cool, but I don't think it's cool when they push policies that negatively affect average sportsmen. I don't think its cool when meat hunters have to to sit out because of a few Captain Ahabs.
 
Please! You're discribing the average hunter as someone that wants to have little involvement in hunting expect the weekends of the deer and elk hunts. And in reality that group doesn't care enough to have a voice. They are simply the masses that follow whatever rules and regulations that are made, and the opportunity above all else (the gimmie gimmie crowd). Latches onto them every single chance they can get.

Political voice is a must in a world that is becoming dominated my special interest groups. Hoss you compare Utah to other states, however the DWR is funded completely different in Utah than in many other states.

Same old story SFW is horrible yet no other group or no other individuals have stepped up and made a positive impact for Utahs wildlife. Hellll when Lee asked for membership fees to help with UWC he got hammered and half of you acted like that was going to be the new powerful group! What did they do...about the same amount as an LDS stakes Eagle projects in a year. Internet voices continually hammering conservation organization and never having any solutions to better our wildlife!
 
SFW has done, and continues to do good things for Utah wildlife. If they could drop the parts that attempt to shut me out of hunting and fishing in the process, I would become a member.

I have nothing against the good things they have done. Their attempts to make hunting and fishing exclusive activities are what I do not like. And I just can't overlook that, no matter how much good they do otherwise.
 
>SFW has done, and continues to
>do good things for Utah
>wildlife. If they could drop
>the parts that attempt to
>shut me out of hunting
>and fishing in the process,
>I would become a member.
>
>
>I have nothing against the good
>things they have done. Their
>attempts to make hunting and
>fishing exclusive activities are what
>I do not like. And
>I just can't overlook that,
>no matter how much good
>they do otherwise.

Said the same thing for years.

I joined BHA even though I'm a lot more mixed use than they.

Muley. Your right. Hunting in Utah has become political. How did that happen? Who is the 10th most powerful?

But your attitude is telling. Sorry, but the vast majority of guys do hunt deer weekend, possibly elk weekend. But get real. Their tags cost the same as yours. Their 11% on sporting goods is the same as yours. The difference is they don't spend capital, political or otherwise trying to eliminate you.


Its comical that a guy who drinks the coolaid of a group that takes millions in public money, tax exemptions, tags, etc. Looks a guys who don't as gimmie gimmie.

How many of those Saturday night guys would scratch checks if there wasn't a tag? Gimmie gimmie from $fw is absolutely priceless.

$fw has a board. When are they voting to fire THE DON?

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
With out pressure they will never fire the Don but if we don't get involved then it is on us. I have just recently joined in the conversations on MM but i have been following the site for several years and when ever someone says they are helping SFW they get hammered that is not the way to hopefully get members to help put pressure on the organization. Again I am not a member of any group right now but i know i need to try and help fix things. I am not preaching for pepole to join SFW but
get involved and maybe you might find you can work with some of these organizations.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-18 AT 04:35PM (MST)[p]>With out pressure they will never
>fire the Don but if
>we don't get involved then
>it is on us. I
>have just recently joined in
>the conversations on MM but
>i have been following the
>site for several years and
> when ever someone says
>they are helping SFW they
>get hammered that is not
>the way to hopefully get
>members to help put pressure
>on the organization. Again I
>am not a member of
>any group right now but
>i know i need to
>try and help fix things.
>I am not preaching for
>pepole to join SFW but
>
>get involved and maybe you might
>find you can work with
>some of these organizations.

I try to separate THE DON and the "management" as much as I can from the "troops".

I know a bunch of guys personally that are troops. They do a lot of good. Truth is if they called me to help with a project I would.

But, the "troops" aren't on Capital Hill. The "troops" aren't 10th on the list. The troops aren't sitting on the WB. And I doubt many of them are on the banquet on sat night for the auctions.

JMO is in here. I have challenged him repeatedly to be done with THE DON. Every time its the same answer, ,the don speaks for himself". Yet look at $fw leadership on their website, he's there. Do u think THE DON speaking for himself would get time with the gov?

I believe guys when they tell me there is "new blood" in $FW. So why are they still clinging to the old blood? At some point you either cut bait or fish. Seems they are comfortable with THE DON and his mindset lobbying on their behalf, or he'd be gone.

Now Muley will follow with a hit back, or a "I don't always agree....", but notice he's never called for a separation either. Wonder why?

And lets be honest. If they lead the fight against state ownership, their membership would swell. They are "neutral" because the guys they represent ARE the guys who would buy state land.

It ain't there troops who would.

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-18 AT 06:31PM (MST)[p]Hoss,
I do wish there was a separation. I wish Don would start a new group that actually had teeth again. Will I always agree with Don...no probably not. But I sure as hellll believe he is the hammer that would get things done. Like I said it's politics and I like my politicians like Trump. Don't have to love all of their tactics but I like results. Don hasn't been able to keep a tag in every hunters pocket and that's honestly the biggest gripe people have. Times have changed and tags for everyone is not good conservation. Dons model of taking a tiny handful of tags and creating the dollars they do is a brilliant plan on having the haves bring dollars to the table to help conservation that all including the have nots benifit from. Is it all perfect? Nope but nothing usually is.

Again whinners, and gimmie gimmies and Johnny come latelys without a better plan and nothing to offer but negativity. Zero effort in actually helping our wildlife.

Hoss I missed your answer on the Pauns, how much time have spent down there from 1990 to present?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-18 AT 06:50PM (MST)[p]Does anybody know when the big SFW Member vote is on the land grab?

Is it before or after the vote on Escalante National Park?

Every time SFW fails to take a pro-public-land position we're told its because the leadership wants to hear from the members first instead of acting like leaders and, you know, leading.

And, of course, when the leaders take anti-public-land positions we're told they don't speak for the members. Quite the juxtaposition.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
I believe it was hossblur who posted about the Pauns. Are you serious? Get your head out of your ass. The Pauns is BACK! Yes, better than the Henry's. Thanks to SFW and others for bringing it back!!!
 
>Please! You're discribing the average
>hunter as someone that wants
>to have little involvement in
>hunting expect the weekends of
>the deer and elk hunts.
> And in reality that
>group doesn't care enough to
>have a voice. They
>are simply the masses that
>follow whatever rules and regulations
>that are made, and the
>opportunity above all else.

This sounds like the average attendees of the expo.
 
I said nothing concerning level of involvement, but since you mentioned it - Your are right, most "average sportsmen" do not spend as much time pushing a political agenda. That's why we have option 2, but "average sportsmen" filled out the surveys that showed the majority of hunters prefer opportunity over rare trophy hunts. SFW was blown away and couldn't wrap their head around it. "Average sportsmen" have also showed up enough to voice its okay to increase tags on units that are over objective. Five years ago the southern RAC was petrified of increasing tags in any way shape or form as they thought that all hunters wanted tags cut regardless. They are doing a better job of balancing the interests of the two.

Perhaps a better definition of "average sportsman" is a hunter who SFW detests and demonizes because they don't share the psycho obsession of inches.
 
Paul Ryan, the highest-ranking Republican in Congress, has condemned Donald Trump's decision to pardon of controversial former sheriff Joe Arpaio.

In a speech in Utah, Mr Romney attacked Mr Trump as ''a phoney, a fraud''.
''His promises are as worthless as a degree from Trump University,'' he said.

Senate Minority Leader Charles E. Schumer said Sunday that President Trump?s rotten deal making and inept leadership caused the ?Trumpshutdown,?

Former US President Bill Clinton has said President Donald Trump?s repeated comment regarding the ?fake news? mirrors what he called ?dictators? club?

Nancy Pelosi said, ?Harvey [Weinstein] didn't evoke this. The election of President Trump evoked what happened to Harvey and now everybody is served notice,?

Pope Francis also launched into what some interpret as a thinly veiled attack on Trump for pulling out of the Paris Climate Accord in June.
?Man is stupid, the bible said,? the pope quoted from a psalm, when speaking about leaders who denied climate change. ?It's like that, when you don't want to see, you don't see.?

Hillary Clinton has said she believes that Donald Trump ?is a clear and present danger to America?.

Debbie Wasserman Schultz said that President Donald Trump?"believes he was elected as a dictator"

Bart Clinton, a federal financial regulator said, "If Donald Trump is elected president of the United States it will be exceedingly harmful to markets, bad for our economy, and could help drive the nation back into a recession."

Governor Gary Herbert said,
"Donald Trump's statements are beyond offensive & despicable. While I cannot vote for Hillary Clinton, I will not vote for Trump."

John McCain said, he would not attend the Republican National Convention to see Trump accept the party's nomination.

Jeff Flake has been among the most outspoken critics of Trump's statements and policies regarding trade and immigration.......

Well you get the point....... Every body has their critics...... even folks from the same "organization". Imagine, people from Trumps own "organization" criticise him, when they disagree with him. And you expect 100% consensus from every sportsmen, when it comes to Don Peay.

Really?

What's amazing about these kinds of movers and shakers, they aren't distracted by those that disagree with their decisions..... they simply go about doing there business.

So.......regardless of how you see Don Peay, it hasn't stopped him from influencing folks, regardless of what folks say about him, from with his organization or from those outside the organization.

Will Don Peay offend some folks, yes he will.....it happens to the best of them.

I am pleased that he does not allow your criticism to keep him from keeping on. Seems like that's what the good ones are good at doing.

Here a little something to consider, as a most sincere compliment......me to you.


"Judge a man by the reputation of his enemies."
- Arabian Proverb

"A man with no enemies is a man with no character."
? Paul Newman

"Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you."
? Matthew 5:11-12, King James Version

"Viel feind, viel ehr" (Translation: many enemies, much honour)
? Georg von Frundsberg

?You have enemies? Why, it is the story of every man who has done a great deed or created a new idea. It is the cloud which thunders around everything that shines. Fame must have enemies, as light must have gnats. Do no bother yourself about it; disdain. Keep your mind serene as you keep your life clear.?
? Victor Hugo, Choses Vues 1849-1885

"I usually judge how cool I'm being by how many angry people are following me around with signs."
? Seanbaby

A man?s greatness can be measured by his enemies.
? Don Piatt

You can always judge a man by the quality of his enemies.
? Oscar Wilde

I ask you to judge me by the enemies I have made.
? Franklin D. Roosevelt

You know, I used to think it was our families that made us who we are? Then I hoped it was our friends. But if you look at history, the great men and women of the world have always been defined... by their enemies.
? Lex Luthor, Smallville

I envy your enemies, Commander. To be hated by ones so powerful speaks well of you. My krogan would destroy anything we face to earn such a reputation.
? Urdnot Dagg, Mass Effect 3

It takes a great enemy to make a great airplane.
? Air Force saying

DC
 
Johnny...come lately,
That's because you only want to see that and the MM echo chamber makes you believe you're right. It's not about inches. It never has been. Does a healthier herd have more mature animals? Why yes, yes it does.

But I do find this interesting...if the average hunter is wants opportunity then why are the LE Tags so hard to draw? Why do more people apply for those tags than apply for antlerless? Why is the Vernon easier to draw than the Pauns? Seems like mature males matter to more people than just SFW as you claim.

Again ... "we want more tags yet we aren't committed enough to start an organization to help our herds" "But by hellll I'm going to tell you whats wrong with the group that does."
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-18 AT 06:52AM (MST)[p]>LAST EDITED ON Jan-23-18
>AT 06:31?PM (MST)
>
>Hoss,
>I do wish there was a
>separation. I wish Don
>would start a new group
>that actually had teeth again.
> Will I always agree
>with Don...no probably not.
>But I sure as hellll
>believe he is the hammer
>that would get things done.
> Like I said it's
>politics and I like my
>politicians like Trump. Don't
>have to love all of
>their tactics but I like
>results. Don hasn't been
>able to keep a tag
>in every hunters pocket and
>that's honestly the biggest gripe
>people have. Times have
>changed and tags for everyone
>is not good conservation.
>Dons model of taking a
>tiny handful of tags and
>creating the dollars they do
>is a brilliant plan on
>having the haves bring dollars
>to the table to help
>conservation that all including the
> have nots benifit from.
> Is it all perfect?
>Nope but nothing usually is.
>
>
>Again whinners, and gimmie gimmies and
>Johnny come latelys without a
>better plan and nothing to
>offer but negativity. Zero
>effort in actually helping our
>wildlife.
>
>Hoss I missed your answer on
>the Pauns, how much time
>have spent down there from
>1990 to present?


Wished? You have a board, vote him out. If he truly doesn't represent you, why let him drag you through the mud? He's there because HE DOES REPRESENT YOU.

Haven't been there for a few years. But I did see the decline.

But more important. How's the Manti? The Nebo? Hows N Utah? If your purpose was to "save the deer" and improve for the average hunter, why aren't all that "conservation" money improving the areas where the majority of them hunt?
Look at how many welfare tags are auctioned on the Manti alone, yet what has improved there? Nebo? It hasn't. Why? MONEY!!!
The deeppocket wants the Pauns or Henry producing so he can buy auction tags yearly, bypass the draw, wait. $fw takes care of their true concern, tags off the Manti, where the "troops" hunt to make it happen.

But more importantly. Look at the wedge $fw has driven into hunting. Rmef, bha, du, etc spend zero effort trying to actively and PUBLICALLY exclude other hunters. $fw has made it their mission. And if THE DON is successful being "the hammer", Utah will look like Texas.

Thing is Muley. Guys like yourself are playing a dangerous game. You think, "hey I show up, I donate some time, I spread the word". The reality is. The guts THE DON runs with, the guys that FUND $fw, THEY LOOK DOWN ON YOU LIKE YOU DO THE PUBLIC" When THE DONs true vision is realized, state control(sold off the next day), no North American model, "the troops" will not be useful any longer.

But. Good to hear the Pauns is back. I'm sure the CWMU appreciate the effort. Maybe in 25 years I will too.?

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Damn muley, for someone who isn't a member of $FW you sure do come running to the rescue every time anything negative is said about them.

Why are you not a member? After all $FW are the ones who saved the pauns deer herd from extinction.
 
Puff,
Please give us your educated take on the Pauns herd?

No running to the defense just pointing out reality. If you read my posts and had any intellectual comprehension you'd see my answer.
 
my educated take on the pauns herd, let's see. Hmmm, They migrate early, hard to get a tag, TARDS like to poach there, apparently they get run over by cars, there was a fence built, I hear there's a hole in the fence where TARDS gather to shoot bucks. That's pretty much my knowledge of the pauns. I never claimed I knew much about it. I think I stepped foot on the unit once in my life.

I also have no intellectual comprehension so please answer why you are not a member of $FW.

You claim you are all for public lands but you attack real public land advocates like Newberg and BHA but come running to the defense of DBs like Peay who want the states to be able to sell off our public lands. You talk out both sides of your mouth.
 
Puff,
I just look beyond the internet world. The reality of situations. I know that is very hard for some to understand because they only look to the internet for their information and education on many issues. As shown perfectly by your knowledge of the Pauns.
 
"Dons model of taking a tiny handful of tags and creating the dollars they do is a brilliant plan on having the haves bring dollars to the table to help conservation that all including the have nots benifit from. Is it all perfect? Nope but nothing usually is." TINY ??? More that all the western states COMBINED! But sfw get things done? There the ones getting the welfare tags, they have to put some $ back.
 
>Puff,
>I just look beyond the internet
>world. The reality of
>situations. I know that
>is very hard for some
>to understand because they only
>look to the internet for
>their information and education on
>many issues. As shown
>perfectly by your knowledge of
>the Pauns.


That's cool but why are you not a member of $FW?
 
Muley_73 said: "Don hasn't been able to keep a tag in every hunters pocket and that's honestly the biggest gripe people have. Times have changed and tags for everyone is not good conservation."

The fact that I can't get a tag every year isn't my gripe with Don at all, actually. Not even close! I have a lifetime license, I already get a tag every year. And I would be totally okay if I didn't have that license not getting a tag each year, if the biology supported that. In fact, this year I did not even take my rifle out of its case during the hunt. I was too busy helping my friend with his first ever deer tag kill a little two-point on one of the most fun hunts I've ever done. That is what it is about for me, and that is what Don has openly stated he is trying to take away.

You don't get it, and it's not that you are incapable. You just don't want to get it. You've dug your heels in so deeply that you refuse to acknowledge that there is another side to the coin. I hope for my sake, and the sake of your kids and grand kids, Don does not get his way. If he does, you better have a trust set up for them to have the opportunities you've had your entire life.
 
>>Dons model of taking a tiny handful of tags and creating the dollars they do is a brilliant plan on having the haves bring dollars to the table to help conservation.<<

Correction: is a brilliant plan to line their personal pockets.


Hoss - +1 to all you said. Thanks
 
Things the bad Don has done.

Purchasing equipment to make habitat better and more productive helps deer and all hunters.
Habitat projects help all deer and all hunters.
Predator control helps all deer and all hunters.
Getting money for fencing highways helps all hunters.
Getting money for tunnels to decrease road kill helps all hunters.
Passing Prop 5 to protect hunting and trapping helps all hunters.
Doing emergency deer feeding on hard winters saves deer and helps all hunters.
Funds to farmers and ranchers for depredation saves deer and helps all hunters.
Keeping access to school trust lands IE. book cliffs, and National monuments, is good for all hunters.
Having a DWR director that are pro hunting, is good for all hunters.
Helping get a US President that will help hunters.
Fighting the granola groups that are anti hunting, pro ESA, anti guns, etc.

I could go on and on. Some of you get the picture.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-18 AT 01:28PM (MST)[p]Has the Don saved any damsels in distress lately, as after reading that last post it seems as though some are really duped into thinking he's quite the guy, LOL!
 
>Things the bad Don has done.
>
>
>Purchasing equipment to make habitat better
>and more productive helps deer
>and all hunters. (Using taxpayer welfare and with no accountability as to the percentages beneficially used and to those funds that went to "policies, programs, projects and personnel")
>Habitat projects help all deer and
>all hunters. (Using taxpayer welfare and with no accountability as to the percentages beneficially used and to those funds that went to "policies, programs, projects and personnel")
>Predator control helps all deer and
>all hunters. (Using taxpayer welfare and with no accountability as to the percentages beneficially used and to those funds that went to "policies, programs, projects and personnel")
>Getting money for fencing highways helps
>all hunters. (Asking legislators to use taxpayer funds... hardly a great philanthropic endeavor)
>Getting money for tunnels to decrease
>road kill helps all hunters. (Asking legislators to use taxpayer funds... hardly a great philanthropic endeavor)
>
>Passing Prop 5 to protect hunting
>and trapping helps all hunters. (This was a victory for which SFW deserves credit)
>
>Doing emergency deer feeding on hard
>winters saves deer and helps
>all hunters. (Using taxpayer welfare and with no accountability as to the percentages beneficially used and to those funds that went to "policies, programs, projects and personnel". Also in cooperation with other sportsmen's groups. Other states do this without SFW so it is certainly not exclusive.)
>Funds to farmers and ranchers for
>depredation saves deer and helps
>all hunters. Farmers lobby this without SFW and virtually every western state has a similar program
>Keeping access to school trust lands SITLA lands are not considered public land and there is currently a push to make it a CWMU. We'll see how this plays out. I hope SFW helps to fight it.
>IE. book cliffs, and National
>monuments, is good for all
>hunters. People have been cited for accessing SITLA land in Book Cliffs. Hunting was allowed in National Monuments, yet SFW is silent on a proposed National Park that would actually close hunting and limit access
>Having a DWR director that are
>pro hunting, is good for
>all hunters. This position is appointed by DNR Director, which is appointed by the Governor. The current DWR Director was the Deputy Director for the previous 5 years. SFW should probably stop patting themselves on the back for this, let me guess, you'll now claim credit for getting Trump elected.
>Helping get a US President that
>will help hunters. Thank God for SFW, otherwise Clinton would've carried Utah which would've spread across the country and flipped the election. Trump had no chance of carrying the Upper Midwest and Rust Belt without the blessing of SFW.
>Fighting the granola groups that are
>anti hunting, pro ESA, anti
>guns, etc. This applies to virtually every sportsmen's group in America.
>
>I could go on and on.
> Some of you get
>the picture.

If you want to claim SFW delisted wolves too. Here is the truth on that with third-party-sourced material... http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/24645.html#2

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
Round and round in goes in the echo chamber. And yes I include myself.

Again without Dons model you will get Eagle Scout Projects and treats for volunteers. I honestly think that his model and the big picture completely escapes you. Not because it is wrong but because most don't comprehend the politically run world we live in.

Grizz,
"This applies to virtually every sportsmens group in America" Does that include BHA? Are they fighting groups like REI, and Sierra Club???
 
You're running a few decades behind, Muley73. Things are changing.

As Mark Kenyon from Wired To Hunt said, "One of the great things about this issue (land grab) is that it's opening both sides of this great big family to our commonality. Whether you tote a gun or a snowboard, these places matter to all of us.?

REI's CEO Jerry Stritzke, "The hunting and fishing industry and many leaders on both sides of the aisle care deeply about our public lands. Bottom line, while we address the attacks on public lands in Utah we have to be at the table in DC. We can only do this as a united industry."

Patagonia twitter, "We have been fighting for these lands for decades, so that hunters, fisherman, hikers and everyone else can use them and help us protect them."

OutsideOnline article, "That (HR621) awoke a sleeping giant, as all sides of the fractured and diverse outdoor industry rose up to oppose it. Hunters and anglers don't want to lose access to the public land that supports animal conservation. Environmentalists don't want to lose our nation?s clean water, clean air, and unspoiled spaces. Hikers, campers, and the businesses that support them don't want to lose trails, rivers, and campsites. The issue united citizens from across the political spectrum.

The OutsideOnline article then links to Instagram posts from Backcountry Hunters & Anglers, Joe Rogan, Patagonia, MtnOps, and others as evidence that the hunting and non-consumptive outdoor industry can work together to protect public lands. The New York Times has even run hunting-friendly articles about the benefits of hunting to sheep conservation and the growing belief from the "locavore" movement that hunting wild game is truly organic, free-range, and therefore the only ethical type of meat to consume. There are now left-leaning vegetarians that refuse to consume any meat that isn't hunted and processed by themselves to assure cleanliness and purity. Muley73, it's time to expand your horizons and the overall hunting "tent" as the more friends we can make the better chance we have of protecting what we love.

You made it clear in the wolf discussion you don't have a clue about what BHA stands for, so if you want to PM me your name and mailing address I will buy you a membership so you can receive their magazine and see for yourself what a pro-public-land-hunting conservation group looks like.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-18 AT 04:32PM (MST)[p]Griz,
You are a smart and passionate hunter who see's things differently than most. I don't think your crusade has helped much the past few years. Good luck in bring down the evil SFW and the evil Don.

Remember about three years ago you said SFW was going to be going out of business. Good thing you didn't take me up on that $1,000 bet.

It is not a perfect group. But it has done and will continue to do a lot of good for all sportsmen. Ranked number 10 in this poll is impressive. Would you rather have PETA and Hillary.

Best wishes.
 
Whooooops............ don't go there H50........ ya ain't gonna like the answer to that one. Just saying...... ;-)

DC
 
>
>It is not a perfect group.
> But it has done
>and will continue to do
>a lot of good for
>all sportsmen. Ranked number
>10 in this poll is
>impressive. Would you rather
>have PETA and Hillary.
>
>Best wishes.


Would PETA and Hillary want to privatize our public wildlife, sell off our public lands, turn Utah into a private land sh!thole like Texas and take neutral stances on every issue that screws Utah sportsmen over like $FW and Donny boy? This is a serious question 50, answer if you have any balls.

Yea Donny boy is ranked 10th you must be proud to have such a power voice who would never ever ever ever stand up against the Utah legislature no matter how bad they were screwing over Utah sportsmen.

and $FWs biggest apologist isn't even a member and won't say why, that alone speaks volumes about your crap organization.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-24-18
>AT 04:32?PM (MST)
>
>Griz,
>You are a smart and passionate
>hunter who see's things differently
>than most. I don't
>think your crusade has helped
>much the past few years.
>Good luck in bring down
>the evil SFW and the
>evil Don.
>
>Remember about three years ago you
>said SFW was going to
>be going out of business.
> Good thing you didn't
>take me up on that
>$1,000 bet.
>
>It is not a perfect group.
> But it has done
>and will continue to do
>a lot of good for
>all sportsmen. Ranked number
>10 in this poll is
>impressive. Would you rather
>have PETA and Hillary.
>
>Best wishes.

One should be cautious. I saw a name on that list. Mitt. Last I checked Mitt and Trump ain't best buds, the guy who got Trump elected might not hold much sway in Mitt land.

BTW, because I'm a member of the "hunting, fishing, public lands party", being tight with the NRA(who is "neutral" as well on land) isn't a badge of courage.

If you hunt public land. Read the republican platform. Read the plank about land transfer.

Like Grizz said, times changed. Your either pro public land or your not. There isnt a "neutral".

So yup. No matter how much of a small fed gov guy I am, I ain't neutral. And if that means me and some blue hair, granola munching, Subaru driver are marching together on the side of public land. Ill take her/him/it(non gender specific), over ANY camo wearing privatizer.

Muley and crew want to talk about trophy units, deer herds, etc. No one cares about the buck:doe ratio on closed land. And no one will care that you sent your yearly dues to $fw. The guys that are funding it, the guys that THE DON actually lobby for, DONT WANT ALL YOU PEASANTS EITHER. Your simply "useful idiots".

But no. I don't want to take down $fw. Is like to join them. Stand up for public land, ill take a pic of me signing up.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Muley73 always wants to wade into semantics because he can't argue facts.



#livelikezac
 
Must of hit a nerve?


No secret that since $fw lead the way on prop 5, then dumped the average and chased the money I haven't been a fan.

But this public land fight has forced a change in thinking. I'm mostly a libertarian, hate big gov, central control, etc. But that's had to change. Too much Newberg? But the reality is the reality. Times have changed since the 90' s. Hunting is changing. Luckily. There is a movement a foot of folks hunting for meat(gasp). Folks who use public land. Bush hippies? But whether lumpy and Muley like it or not, things are changing.

When Patagonia steps up in the public land fight, while the NRA sits on its hands, tell me who my friend is.

When BHA is having landlocked public land opened, while $fw is NEUTRAL, explain to me who is on my side again?

Sorry you don't like it Lumpy, but times "they are a changin".


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
DW,
Facts have been argued and presented for years and they are ignored by the group of Internet whinners that post here. I argue for entertainment at this point.

Complain complain complain and never a better solution. Just gimmie gimmie gimmie. I hope it keeps sliding into the shittter. I've long ago started to put my efforts and money toward other states so my kids will be able to enjoy hunting. Utah and even SFW has too long catered to the gimmie gimmies and will continue to mismanage our herds. Place blame on the 500 tags that bring in the conservation dollars and never blink an eye at the really problem. It's pathetic and at the end of the day those unwilling to think outside of the box will deserve the shitty box they are sitting in.
 
Congratulations Hoss, I think you just took Hawkeyes place as the kid at the front of the bus or back of the classroom or someone like that.
 
>Congratulations Hoss, I think you just
>took Hawkeyes place as the
>kid at the front of
>the bus or back of
>the classroom or someone like
>that.

?

Not the first time today I will get told off I'm sure



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Hoss,
Enjoy the change. Because you're right those groups are starting to have a voice. But the voice they have is theirs not the internet whiners. And when the dust settles the hunters will not be their top priority.

Patagonia, REI, Sierra Club is like the old rattlesnake, you pick them up and call them a friend today, but tomorrow they won't hesitate to bite you.

Like I said, my new stance is going to be that Utah go back to over the counter tags, unlimited either sex permits. For both deer and elk. It will give plenty of opportunity. Eliminate the SFW all together. Then enjoy. I'm sure those other groups will jump right into support your fight. We know that the DWR is ok with 2-3 buck per hundred doe. And many dollars are being lost by farmers by too many elk, deer and antelope. This is my new push. Give all the "average hunters " what they want. I'm sure they will manage themselves perfectly. Maybe even go full liberaterian and just take away all seasons and bag limits.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-18 AT 08:53AM (MST)[p]Hoss, how dare you have a different opinion on a politically charged issue? I still proudly own the title of the "kid in the back of the bus." Perhaps Lumpy will come back when he is finished pouting and give you a nickname of your own -- preferably something that does not start with an f-bomb.

Loud, powerful and influential voices are great if they are advocating for a position that you agree with. Not so much when those voices are pushing a position or issue that impacts you in a negative way. This thread confirms yet again that SFW and DP do not speak for all sportsmen. Some folks support SFW but many do not.

-Hawkeye-
 
>Hoss, how dare you have a
>different opinion on a politically
>charged issue? That is classic
>Lumpy.
>
>I still proudly own the title
>of the "kid in the
>back of the bus."
>Perhaps Lumpy will come back
>when he is finished pouting
>and give you a nickname
>of your own.
>
>-Hawkeye-

Hawkeye,

I think your jealous of my new position!


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I am only jealous because I understand exactly what Lumpy meant when he unloaded on you. I am still trying to decipher the nursery rhyme about the "boy on the back of the bus." I initially took that as a complement but I found out later that he apparently disagreed with my comments/views.

-Hawkeye-
 
It's not really a nickname it's more a discription.

Hoss thanks for the PM it fell in line with exactly what I've always said about almost every single in state SFW hater.

Lumpy takes is personal because of the personal time and effort he's put in over the last 50 years. More than any of you clowns can even comprehend. But I haven't, I'm just an internet assshole like you guys willing to fight for the entertainment of it. You fight back with me because the real SFW guys don't even need to acknowledge you. Its funny to hear comments about getting paid to argue for SFW, or running to the rescue. You are literally reacting and agruing with someone that has nothing to do with the SFW other than show up to the Expo and a couple banquets a year to bid on tags. That is how disconnected you are, you're fighting with a nobody because the somebodies don't even acknowledge you.

What about it Hoss, should we start on the Nebo or the Manti with the new Libertarian Management Plan?
 
This new(ish) reality of some of our traditional allies sitting on the sidelines, while some traditional opponents are joining with us ain't easy to accept. Especially by older guys(non Millenials) who have been in the fights.
The old R good D bad of the past is gone, and wrapping your head around that is hard, has been for me.

You look at who is on this list, Don wasn't elected by anyone,yet he's that powerful? And the group he founded,and still speaks for(they don't disown him) is "neutral"? When DON talks to the Trump folks do you REALLY think he's neutral? Get real.

Times change.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
We should probably sell both of them. The buck/doe ratio would improve.

Lumpy got my "useful idiots" reference. He ain't stupid.

But it is fascinating that he rails about deer numbers counted on private ground and its uselessness, but then throws in with those wanting to privatize.

That would be 50 years of work puzzled down the drain.

When Trump, Cliven Bundy, oil and gas, Herbert, and THE DON, discuss public land, where do u think THE DON is on the subject?

No one cares about the buck/doe ratio on private ground. Time to expand that tunnel vision.

I get Lumpy. I've really struggled changing my mindset too.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
That's funny Muley, because the ?somebodies? , all of them, use to acknowledge and come here regularly and try and argue their positions but the ideology of the Don and $FW is so easily picked apart and shown what a farce they are, they stopped coming on here.

Even Donny boy himself would come on here trying to argue his point, that is until Newberg ran him off.
 
Cody-

I don't consider discussions on this forum as "fighting." I view it as legitimate discussion and debate . . . with some sarcasm and smart-azz comments mixed in from time to time. I have no personal issue with you or your dad. In fact, I have enjoyed most of our discussions over the years because you put forth an alternative view and challenge my positions. This type of debate and discussion is also helpful because it gets other thinking about the issues and allows them to form their own opinions.

I remember the good old days when Don, Jon, Troy and other SFW leaders used to visit these forums and participate in our discussions and debate. I believe they left because there were simply no good answers to many of the real questions and concerns posed by sportsmen. You maintain they left because this forum is full of cry-baby whiners and the SFW leaders are too busy solving real life problems to waste their time in an echo chamber like mm.com. The funny thing about your comment is we all know SFW leadership frequently reads and follows these threads. They just choose not to chime in. I give credit to folks like JMO and others who jump into the fray from time to time to voice an opinion on behalf of SFW. There are many great sportsmen who are members of SFW and whom I consider to be friends.

In summary, discussion and debate it a good thing. Folks need to have thicker skin, listen to the comments of others with an open mind, and not be so easily offended. That being said, I enjoy reading you and your dad's comments -- even the prickly ones -- as they make good entertainment.

-Hawkeye-
 
I'm not surprised in the least that is what you believe. Again an echo chamber is a powerful thing. You truly believe that they shy away for that reason? I think they stay away because they realized that those on here screaming really don't have a voice when it comes right down to it. So they have just gone back to doing their thing. It's why Jason drug his story back to the internet after he didn't get the results he wanted outside of the Internet. A place that you get support and are championed is comforting.
 
>an echo chamber
>is a powerful thing.

I couldn't agree more. There are good men that volunteered for a then-positive organization years ago that are still stuck listening to that echo a decade later. I think its easier for them to concentrate on that echo than admit to themselves that the time and money they donated was used to build a group attempting to privatize wildlife and close access to public land.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
popcorn




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-25-18 AT 12:46PM (MST)[p]>I'm not surprised in the least
>that is what you believe.
> Again an echo chamber
>is a powerful thing.
> You truly believe that
>they shy away for that
>reason? I think they
>stay away because they realized
>that those on here screaming
>really don't have a voice
>when it comes right down
>to it. So they
>have just gone back to
>doing their thing. It's
>why Jason drug his story
>back to the internet after
>he didn't get the results
>he wanted outside of the
>Internet. A place that
>you get support and are
>championed is comforting.


Is that why those fellas never venture out of their group? Why THE DON hid from Newberg?

I agree with Hawkeye. I've argued with JMO numerous times. At least he leaves the comfort of the $fw echo chamber and expresses his thoughts on the matter. Same reason I give you credit as well Muley.

Same as Lumpy. But he misspelled a word a few times?

"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I don't come to these forums seeking comfort and emotional therapy. I log onto these forums to read and share experiences, to exchange ideas, to debate issues, and to have a little fun. I have been active on these forums since the 2000. During those years, I have met and interacted with lots of good people and apparently pissed a few people off, including Lumpy. Every now and then, however, I try to step out of the echo chamber so that I can experience the real world that Cody keeps telling me about. ;-)

-Hawkeye-
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-26-18 AT 05:58AM (MST)[p]Pretty decent reflection of society as a whole.

Scumbag in The White House

Scumbag locally, apparently at # 10

Some Scumbag stole the ?C? key off of Lumpy?s device.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 

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