NOW WE GONNA KILL MORE!!!

elkassassin

elkassassin

Long Time Member
Messages
36,966
Now the UDWR wants to add More F'N Permits because of the Drought!

I Agree!

It's Dry!

And it's not Good!

I Often F'N Wonder How The Game Herds on this Earth & in this State Ever Managed Their-selves before the DWR Came along?

They Claim not One Collared Fawn Made it on SJ!

I Wonder If they'll wanna Kill the Does/Mothers now?

I Wonder Just How Much Harder You Can Hunt Game Herds in TARDville?

JUDAS!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
728 more Cow Elk tags, they did not say what units were included. 109 more Henry Mtn Buffalo tags. Few numbers added to the existing hunts, then 4 new hunts in january, for the remaining permits. The Buffalo hunts will be very crowded this year. Future Buffalo permits will probably be cut in numbers for a while.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-30-18 AT 04:21PM (MST)[p]I used to think UT had its head screwed on straight
compared to NM.

Not anymore...
 
The Thing that Kills Me if there was only One Buffalo left on the Henries they'd still have 75 F'N Permits!

Nobody can Out-Guess Weather!

But Vegetation can come back alot Quicker than a Herd of Game Animals!

Can We Even Give Next year a Chance before We Start the Slaughters?

JFP!!!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
We've got Cougar/Lion Units now that average 1.3 years old Lions!

GEEZUS!

They'll Kill anything at any Age in this State!

A Bunch of F'N Kitten Killers!

And Seem to be Proud of it!














I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
They wanna Raise the Vernon Lion Hunt to 12 Tags!

GEEZUS!

There's been 9 Lions harvested on the Vernon in 3 F'N Years!

JFP!!!








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Hey Bess,

Relax, it's only Thursday. You're gonna have a stroke before Friday! Don't ruin your weekend this early.

I get it though, times are tough! DWR has a lot of mouths to feed! They have a lot of CWMU's to patrol and protect! Where else they gonna get the money? Tardville has to support these fawn and kitten killers cuz no one else will!
 
Well BloodTracker!

You Might Say I'm Just Enhancing My Odds with the DWR on Drawing a Big Game Tag in 2019!:D








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
109 Additional Bison Tags?

Did You Hear that BIGJOHN?








I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
The additional buffalo tags seemed very aggressive to me. Once you hammer a herd, it take a long time to recover.

One of the WB members actually moved to add an additional 500 elk tags above what was recommended by the DWR.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
The statement that you can bring back vegetation more quickly than herds is not necessarily true, particularly in the desert.

If all 109 extra tags were filled (they won't be, FYI), it would bring the Henry?s herd down to its objective.

Southern Utah is in bad shape. Bad, bad shape. The herds would naturally manage themselves, just like that super educated woman wanted, in a natural way. But I don't think any of us would be cheering the DWR in 5 years if they elected to do so. Maybe elkass would prefer this method too? Let them die ?naturally? and not hunt them? An increase in tags this year is needed if you want Henry Mountains bison to survive.

Hawkeye, the increase to cow tags proposed at the end was interesting. It wasn?t that he was necessarily concerned about elk. It was because his anecdotal data he has collected from ranchers is that they've reduced their herds 50% this war, so the elk should be reduced closer to 50% too. It is comforting to know we have such a champion of wildlife as a voting board member making ALL the decisions, isn't it?
 
How about instead of destroying the buffalo herd, those cattlemen pay to feed their damn cows? Get em off of public land that they pay basically nothing per month for. My father has a small herd of cattle for feeding the family, he pays everything out of pocket and keeps it on his own land. Those cattlemen are so damn entitled it's sickening. They'd love to see all elk, deer, antelope, and bison slaughtered if it meant they can keep their cows on public land for free.
 
109 additional bison tags seems a little excessive. Didn't that basically double the number of tags that was previously being offered on the Henry Mountains? In the past, the WB has increased tags in response to drought, excessive herd numbers, etc., and done real damage to the herds. I am thinking of the elk on the Fishlake unit as an example. It seems like the friction is still building between sportsmen and public land grazers in Southern Utah.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Yes, it doubles the tags. 110 prior to this, 109 more offered.

The sentiment I felt was if they felt like the hunts could have accommodated more hunters, there would have been more tags offered. They stated that they put the absolute max amount of hunters in the field at any given time.

I'm not worried about the number of bison after January, but what may happen, and they acknowledged this, that it may substantially change the behavior of the bison. And not just during those hunts, but going forward.
 
"The statement that you can bring back vegetation more quickly than herds is not necessarily true, particularly in the desert."

I live in what many would consider a "desert". You would be surprised at how quickly things green up after a few rainstorms.

People need to realize that many of the animals that live in southern Utah, and particularly the southeast, thrive in fairly arid climates that experience 10-12" of precipitation per year. These areas contain oak brush, pinion/juniper, and ponderosa pine.

A dry year or two may yield lower calf and fawn crops at times, but to increase tags to thin the herd because of this is nonsensical at best. The low offspring count will always account for dryer conditions and self manage a herd, which we have right now, just as banner years of moisture and yield higher offspring counts.

In all truth, the southwest has been in period of "drought" for the past 20 years...
 
>I live in what many would
>consider a "desert". You
>would be surprised at how
>quickly things green up after
>a few rainstorms.

Not if you have too many animals eating it before it can grow.

Don?t just take the DWR?s word for it. The National Weather Service, Farmer?s Almanac, and many others are calling this the worst drought in decades. I've heard reports outside of the wildlife world that this is the worst range conditions in SE Utah many of these people have ever seen. I guess there is always the option to let things self regulate. And when the entire genetically pure bison herd on the Henry?s dies, what are we saying then?

Well, ranchers would love that, actually. But sportsmen would be up in arms. And rightfully so.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-01-18 AT 09:10AM (MST)[p]I understand adding a few tags due to drought and current range conditions but doubling the total number of tags previously allocated seems very aggressive. Imagine if they doubled the number of deer or elk tags issued state wide? I'm not a wildlife biologist but I hope we do not end up looking back on this decision 5 years later and regretting the damage we did to the herd similar to what occurred with elk on the Fishlake.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Hawkeye, I completely agree. It is very aggressive, and has the potential to have a major impact on hunting bison on the Henry?s. They acknowledged that openly at the meeting, for all those that watched. They are not so much concerned about the numbers, because even if they kill at 100% rate (and they won't), it will take the herd down to objective. The most recent count showed the herd ~150 animals over objective. But they are very concerned about the change in habits the extra pressure could possibly make. And there is simply no way to know how negative (or maybe even positive) those will be ahead of time.

The alternative is hoping the herd doesn't eat itself into starvation. The sentiment really seemed that they think even more bison need to come off this year to save the herd, but they simply couldn't do more than what they are. I hope they are right. Because if they miss either way, it sucks for that herd.
 
HEY CAT
WHAT DID I TELL YOU OVER 20 YEARS AGO.

HERE WE ARE

THE ONLY BOBCAT.




"If the DWR was just doing its job, and
wildlife and hunting were the actual focus,
none of this process would even matter.
But that is not the focus or the goal in any
of this. The current DWR regime, and
SFW were born out of wildlife declines,
and are currently operated and funded
under that paradigm. Those 200 Expo
tags would not even be worth anything if
the focus was where it was supposed to
be, and wildlife and tags were plentiful.
But under the current business model,
that is how the money and power is
generated. It is generated through the
rising "value"(monitization) of a declining
resource. A resource that is supposed to
be being beneficially managed for the
masses that own that resource, ie. US.
The problem is obvious, hedging is not a
long term sustainable strategy, and
others have to lose, for some to win. In
this case it is us, the many, and our
resources, that are being forced to lose,
because there is a minority who's power
and money is derived from our loses."

LONETREE 3/15/16
 
"Don?t just take the DWR?s word for it. The National Weather Service, Farmer?s Almanac, and many others are calling this the worst drought in decades."

No doubt it has been extremly dry this past year. 2004 was similar and the winter of 2005 brought record amounts if snow in the southern Rockies causing some local reservoirs to rise 40'. I remeber the winter of '92/'93 javing so much snow that it collapsed a building in Durango, CO.

I saw the other day that the Farmers Almanac is now calling for colder temps but more moisture this winter throughout the west. I agree that it may not be enough to get us back to "normal", but hardly think it warrants an emergency population reduction.

UT ain't the only place its been dry...
 
They should absolutely raise the number of lion tags in the state. That hunt should be over the counter... period! Or an option to shoot a lion on a deer tag. If you don't think lions are over over populated for the deer herds we have you need to get out more. I see numerous lions each year now, and have for the last 4-5 years. They seem to be everywhere. You shouldn't see 3 or 4 lions a year just out looking or hunting deer. Guys with good dogs still get big cats, but most wont tell you that because it's their livelihood and passion, but cats are plentiful.
 
>They should absolutely raise the number
>of lion tags in the
>state. That hunt should be
>over the counter... period! Or
>an option to shoot a
>lion on a deer tag.
>If you don't think lions
>are over over populated for
>the deer herds we have
>you need to get out
>more. I see numerous lions
>each year now, and have
>for the last 4-5 years.
>They seem to be everywhere.
>You shouldn't see 3 or
>4 lions a year just
>out looking or hunting deer.
>Guys with good dogs still
>get big cats, but most
>wont tell you that because
>it's their livelihood and passion,
>but cats are plentiful.


I strongly disagree with this statement It has been proven over MANY studies that a healthy mountain lion population helps maintain a healthy ungulate population. Mountain lions target diseased and injured animals more often than healthy animals. Almost all of us as hunters target the healthy animals so id say next time you see a lion out in the hills go shake his hand and thank him.
 
Studies show that an average mature lion will kill on average one deer a week. The DWR does not know how many lions we have but estimates that there are welll over 2,000. You do the math and tell me that lions are only feeding on the weak. I believe believe there are major factor in limiting our deer herd numbers.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
>Studies show that an average mature
>lion will kill on average
>one deer a week.
>The DWR does not know
>how many lions we have
>but estimates that there are
>welll over 2,000. You
>do the math and tell
>me that lions are only
>feeding on the weak.
>I believe believe there are
>major factor in limiting our
>deer herd numbers.
>
>-Hawkeye-
>
>My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:
>
>"It is fair to ask how
>much comes in with the
>five dollar application fees and
>how much went onto the
>ground.? Don Peay of
>SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board
>Meeting.
>
>"There will be a full accounting
>of how the applications fees
>are spent.? Don Peay
>of SFW - 9/26/2006 -
>Monstermuleys.com


I didnt say lions are only feeding on the weak I said lions target the weak. I was just making the point that lions do help clean up the injured and diseased. My reason for making the comment was to warn the ?the only good lion is a dead lion? guys to be careful what they wish for.
 
I can also tell you they have destroyed the lion population close to where i live and the deer herd hasnt made a rebound after 5 years of hard lion killing and that is 100% a fact
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-03-18 AT 11:54AM (MST)[p]Overhunted during deer season, over pressured year round, loss of habitat, and predation to name a few. Before i get crucified i would like to point out I am aware predators put a dent in the deer and elk population but I also think they help maintain a healthy population and the numbers of healthy deer and elk killed by lions are embellished so the division can point a finger and keep overselling tags.
 
the division was blaming lions for the lack of deer and killing the hell out of them when this tactic didnt work they started blaming coyotes and killing the hell out of them this tactic didnt work either so go look at the climbing trend of the number of bear tags given out. I am excited to see what they blame next because they are sure running out of predators to blame.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-03-18 AT 02:33PM (MST)[p]>The statement that you can bring
>back vegetation more quickly than
>herds is not necessarily true,
>particularly in the desert.
>
>If all 109 extra tags were
>filled (they won't be, FYI),
>it would bring the Henry?s
>herd down to its objective.
>
>
>Southern Utah is in bad shape.
>Bad, bad shape. The herds
>would naturally manage themselves, just
>like that super educated woman
>wanted, in a natural way.
>But I don't think any
>of us would be cheering
>the DWR in 5 years
>if they elected to do
>so. Maybe elkass would prefer
>this method too? Let them
>die ?naturally? and not hunt
>them? An increase in tags
>this year is needed if
>you want Henry Mountains bison
>to survive.
>
>Hawkeye, the increase to cow tags
>proposed at the end was
>interesting. It wasn?t that he
>was necessarily concerned about elk.
>It was because his anecdotal
>data he has collected from
>ranchers is that they've reduced
>their herds 50% this war,
>so the elk should be
>reduced closer to 50% too.
>It is comforting to know
>we have such a champion
>of wildlife as a voting
>board member making ALL the
>decisions, isn't it?


Hey Vaniller!

No!

109 Tags Won't all be Filled!

And Then They Can Scream for more F'N Permits!

Nobody can outguess the Weather in Future Years!

Not You!

And not all the DWR Biologists Stacked in one Pile!

So?

We Don't even see what This Winters/Spring Weather Might Bring?

The Very First F'N Dry Year/Drought We Get We Start Slaughtering Animals!

My Question is this:

If They Killed every F'N Bison on the Henry's?

And We did get another Drought Next year?

Would Ranchers & People like yourself Resort To Wanting to Killing off the Henry's Deer Herd as Well?

Hurry,Tell Me Deer Don't Compete with the Same Forage!

I Agree With Hawkeye & others on this!

Way F'N Excessive!

And if they throw these Extra Tag Holders in on the OIL Tag Holders I Hope They Blow their F'N Stacks and tell the DWR this kinda BS Ain't Happening!

EDIT: Me & a couple Friends were in the Book Cliffs Opening Day of LE/General Deer Hunts!

We Seen a Herd of Bison,40 Head,4 Calves in the Whole F'N Herd,Then We Hear how the Book Cliffs Bison Herd is Exploding!

SPLAIN that one Please!










I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Rut, where are you located? I'm curious where the DWR has hammered the lions? What have they done to hammer the lions? Additional tags? Harvest objective tags? Most guys report seeing more lions than in the past but the DWR does not appear to have a real accurate population count on lions. Do you disagree with the studies that say a mature lion kills on average one deer a week? If those studies are even close to accurate then lions are putting the hurt on our deer herds state wide. Perhaps your area is the exception but that would mean we are losing around 100k deer each year to lions. I wish we had more accurate data because it seems like this issue an emotional one the often gets manipulated by both sides. I look forward to hearing your thoughts,

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
>Rut, where are you located?
>I'm curious where the DWR
>has hammered the lions?
>What have they done to
>hammer the lions? Additional
>tags? Harvest objective tags?
> Most guys report seeing
>more lions than in the
>past but the DWR does
>not appear to have a
>real accurate population count on
>lions. Do you disagree
>with the studies that say
>a mature lion kills on
>average one deer a week?
> If those studies are
>even close to accurate then
>lions are putting the hurt
>on our deer herds state
>wide. Perhaps your area
>is the exception but that
>would mean we are losing
>around 100k deer each year
>to lions. I wish
>we had more accurate data
>because it seems like this
>issue an emotional one the
>often gets manipulated by both
>sides. I look forward
>to hearing your thoughts,
>
>-Hawkeye-
>
>My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:
>
>"It is fair to ask how
>much comes in with the
>five dollar application fees and
>how much went onto the
>ground.? Don Peay of
>SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board
>Meeting.
>
>"There will be a full accounting
>of how the applications fees
>are spent.? Don Peay
>of SFW - 9/26/2006 -
>Monstermuleys.com

It'd Be Interesting Hawkeye To know How much time You've Spent Lion Hunting in your Life?

Now I Like You And always Have Liked You!

I Want You to Study My 2 Next sentences real Close:

Until Every F'N Lion in the State is Dead,The LandOwners & Ranchers will Never be Happy!

Until Every F'N Lion in the State is Dead,Alot of Deer Hunters,Elk Hunters & DWR Will Never be Happy!

They've Hunted the Lions Down to where a Mature Tom is almost non Existent!

1.3 Year Age Average on the Vernon!

JUDAS!

F'N!

PRIEST!

And they Add More Lion Tags!

Yup!

Lions Eat Deer & Sheep!

The Number of Deer Taken by Lions don't Even Compare to what the DWR/TARDS do to Our Deer Herds!

If there was only one F'N Lion left alive in this State they'd Kill it!

Then What Would they Blame Our PISS POOR Deer Herds on?













I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Feed the machine and save he herds. Put in for a tag and if you draw it put it in a scrap book.
4abc76ff29b26fc1.jpg
 
Bessy-

Thanks for the post. I am the first to admit that I have very little experience hunting lions. However, I have had encounters with lions over the last few years where I never had them in the past. I also don't dispute that the DWR has tried to target lions in certain areas over the last few years. All that being said, I am curious how much of an impact lions are having on our deer herds?

After reviewing the mule deer plan, it looks like hunters (rifle, muzzle loader, archery combined) have taken an average of around 30,000 deer per year over the last decade. According to the cougar management plant, we have between 2,500 and 4,000 cougars state wide. Multiple studies have concluded that mule deer are the primary food source for lions and that a lion will eat roughly one deer per week. So once again, let's do the math. Let's say there are only 2,000 lions state wide - a very low estimate according to the DWR. That would mean that those 2,000 lions would kill approximately 100,000 deer each year. That would mean that lions are taking 3x as many deer as all of us hunters combined in the state of Utah.

So you tell me Bess, is the research flawed? Do we have less lions statewide than the DWR thinks? Do lions take less deer than reported by the researchers? I agree that there are multiple problems impacting deer numbers, including poor habitat, drought, vehicle deaths, predation, overhunting, extended pressure, poor fawn survival, etc. But don't you have to agree that if our lion population is anywhere close to what is reported by the DWR than lions would be a significant factor in limiting mule deer numbers? What am I missing? Help educate me and other on this issue.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
Doesn?t it kind of make you scratch your head that everyone is seeing more cats, other then those who have an interest in them. Just saying... Hawkeye gave you the DWR lion population estimate, and he was very conservative in doing so according to the DWR. 2,000 cats killing 100k deer a year. Ya I'm thinking they do some damage. I don't know if every unit in the state is loaded, but I can assure you the wasatch front from Ogden to Spanish fork is loaded, pahvant loaded, stansburys loaded. Everything has its place, but there is no doubt that cats are plentiful in some units.
 
Mr Bess,

Do I understand you right? The cougars aren't old enough in Utah and we don't have enough big deer? Do you really want older cougars?
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-18 AT 11:27AM (MST)[p]Wow are they blind I know we are in a drought what caused all of this THE CATTLE there was tons of vegetation on the mountains but the cows have picked it clean the forest service should have made them come off 3 weeks ago so the vegetation could grow back for winter.

The biologist and are forest service are to blame for this.....
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-04-18
>AT 11:27?AM (MST)
>
>Wow are they blind I know
>we are in a drought
>what caused all of this
>THE CATTLE there was tons
>of vegetation on the mountains
>but the cows have picked
>it clean the forest service
>should have made them come
>off 3 weeks ago so
>the vegetation could grow
>back for winter.
>
>The biologist and are forest service
>are to blame for this.....
>
>
>
>
I agree, there needs to be some cutting back on range use of cattle.
 
Well Boys!

SPLAIN This:

From the very Late 70's through the Early 90's it wasn't Hard to put 2-3 Nice/Big Toms in a Tree in one Day if you wanted to Hunt!

I'm Talking the South Slope Specifically!

Way More Lions Back then!

And Way More Deer Back then than there is now!

We Treed Female Lions that Were Bigger in Size by Far than Most of the PISSCUTTER Toms Taken today!

So With Less Lions & Dink Lions/Sub-Adult Lions today Our Local Deer Herd should be way F'N Better now than back then,Right?

Think that one out a little before Sticking F'N Foot in F'N Mouth!

Yes Lions Eat Deer!

They Always have!

They Always will!

And johnnyutah?

Are you bobbyutah?

What I'm saying is:

There are all kinds of Hunters in Utah!

The Hounders would like a Shot at a Mature/Trophy Tom once in a F'N While!

No Different than me wanting to see a Mature Mule Deer Buck that Lives past 3-1/2 F'N Years old!

Good Luck on any F'N Thing in this F'N State living long enough to Reach it's F'N Potential!

With the PISS POOR Management & the GREED it just don't much happen any more!

I Hope a Few of the Modern Day Hounders Chime in on this Thread!

Any of them with any Age to them at all knows how it used to be,and how it is today!

The Day will Probably be here Soon when a 2 Point Buck will be considered a F'N Trophy!

The Lions of Utah will become Extinct if Joe Blow Deer Hunters & Ranchers get their ways!

Then Who you gonna F'N Blame for the PISS POOR Deer Herd?














I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
>Didn't the South Slope have a
>70% success rate on the
>general rifle deer hunt last
>year?

Yup!

If You want a MOTL Buck!

This Be your Place!









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Bess I know we're there is a chit load of big Toms. Out there on front ,we roll out there with a pack of hounds and turn loose on one of them big Toms.They would lock are azz up and be on the 6 o?clock news.The rest of the State must have a chit load of lion.Because from Strawberry to the Colorado line out here in the Basin I wouldn't think there's 200 lions left and that includes the Books.So I would say that half of the 2000 lions are on front.Bess how much fun would that be to dump the box on a big old Tom up in the Avenue. I think that would be fun as hell.
 
>Bess I know we're there is
>a chit load of big
>Toms. Out there on front
>,we roll out there with
>a pack of hounds and
>turn loose on one of
>them big Toms.They would lock
>are azz up and be
>on the 6 o?clock news.The
>rest of the State must
>have a chit load of
>lion.Because from Strawberry to the
>Colorado line out here in
>the Basin I wouldn't think
>there's 200 lions left and
>that includes the Books.So I
>would say that half of
>the 2000 lions are on
>front.Bess how much fun would
>that be to dump the
>box on a big old
>Tom up in the Avenue.
>I think that would be
>fun as hell.

Hey arns!

I Think the Anti's would somehow put us out of Our Misery!:D

But It would be Fun to Light the Neighborhoods Up!:D









I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Ya Elk I've got 11points for the Wasatch Current creek unit and I should draw this year and I will be damn lucky to find a 4 year Tom.There is a lot of females on the unit because nobody wants to kill a female after waiting for 10 or 12 years to draw.That's the DWR problem on these draw units they have a lot of females and young Toms. I think this is we're the DWR are getting there numbers.
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-18 AT 09:09AM (MST)[p]I have nothing against sportsmen that want the opportunity to chase lions or even mature lions. However, I am trying to understand how many deer we are losing each year to cougars. If lions are taking 100,000+ deer a year then that is a major problem. Perhaps our herds could absorb those types of losses when we had 2 to 3 times as many deer but at current levels that is a real concern. I look forward to hearing from some of the houndsmen as to the current number of lions and their feeding habits. How reliable is the research that is out there?

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-18
>AT 09:09?AM (MST)
>
>I have nothing against sportsmen that
>want the opportunity to chase
>lions or even mature lions.
> However, I am trying
>to understand how many deer
>we are losing each year
>to cougars. If lions
>are taking 100,000+ deer a
>year then that is a
>major problem. Perhaps our
>herds could absorb those types
>of losses when we had
>2 to 3 times as
>many deer but at current
>levels that is a real
>concern. I look forward
>to hearing from some of
>the houndsmen as to the
>current number of lions and
>their feeding habits. How
>reliable is the research that
>is out there?
>
>-Hawkeye-
>
>My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:
>
>"It is fair to ask how
>much comes in with the
>five dollar application fees and
>how much went onto the
>ground.? Don Peay of
>SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board
>Meeting.
>
>"There will be a full accounting
>of how the applications fees
>are spent.? Don Peay
>of SFW - 9/26/2006 -
>Monstermuleys.com

Well Hawkeye!

The Older Full Time Hounders Have a Perty Damn Good Feel for the Number of Lions in the Areas/Units they Hunt Full time!

They Don't Need No Brain Washed Biologist Telling them How Many Lions there is in said Areas!

Until Every Lion in the State is Dead You're not gonna Satisfy the Boys that Think there are Millions of them!

I Say:

If there is a problem Area/Unit Please Thin them Down a bit!

They've Hunted the HELL out of the BookCliffs for Lions!

Females/Kittens Shoot anything they can get in a Tree!

The Book Cliffs Deer Herd is in PISS POOR Shape & Has been for a few years!

Are You Still Blaming the Lions for the shape of that Deer Herd?













I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-18 AT 11:52AM (MST)[p]Bessy said: "Are You Still Blaming the Lions for the shape of that Deer Herd?"

Response: Bessy, take a deep breath and read what I have posted. I have not blamed lions for all of the problems with our deer herds. In fact, I stated that I believe there are many factors impacting our herds, one of which may be lions. I do believe that if a specific deer herd is struggling and falls below a critical mass number then lions may be a factor that prevents that specific herd from recovering.

I am looking for input from sportsmen, including lion hunters, as to whether folks are seeing more lions today then they have in the past? If so, in what areas? Do you agree with the DWR's population estimates for lions (approx. 2500-4000 statewide)? If not, do you believe that estimate too high or too low? Do we agree with the research that shows that the preferred food source lions in Utah is mule deer and that a mature lion takes on average one deer a week? I would like to hear from other sportsmen on these issues, particularly houndsmen.

Until we avoid emotional reactions, we cannot have an intelligent discussion regarding this topic.

-Hawkeye-

My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:

"It is fair to ask how much comes in with the five dollar application fees and how much went onto the ground.? Don Peay of SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board Meeting.

"There will be a full accounting of how the applications fees are spent.? Don Peay of SFW - 9/26/2006 - Monstermuleys.com
 
I like to chase lions and hunt deer. The problem is we have a lot of sub-adults and females with kittens are protected. Looking at trail cam pictures you get a good idea how many lions are around in certain areas. The days of trophy lion hunting are over. Why? Because we have struggling deer herds, loss of habitat, population increases, etc. The are not enough deer to feed them to lions.

If you wanted to get rid of half of the female and kitten population we could have some bigger Toms. That isn't going to happen. Since we are likely never to have the deer populations we use to have we will never have the older age cat population.
 
Hawkeye I'm not sure how many deer get killed by lions.They say that a female with kittens will kill one a week.Big Toms 4 to 8 years old can kill any thing they want but they like elk or wild horses. I found a horse a couple of summers ago in the Books that a big Tom killed it took him the birds and a couple of coyotes about three weeks.We?ve been lion hunting and found a overnight kill by a female.So we came back the next day it was completely gone by a pack of coyotes. I would say there are to many scenarios to know for sure how many deer a lion kills.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Sep-05-18
>AT 11:52?AM (MST)
>
>Bessy said: "Are You Still Blaming
>the Lions for the shape
>of that Deer Herd?"
>
>Response: Bessy, take a deep
>breath and read what I
>have posted. I have
>not blamed lions for all
>of the problems with our
>deer herds. In fact,
>I stated that I believe
>there are many factors impacting
>our herds, one of which
>may be lions. I
>do believe that if a
>specific deer herd is struggling
>and falls below a critical
>mass number then lions may
>be a factor that prevents
>that specific herd from recovering.
>
>
>I am looking for input from
>sportsmen, including lion hunters, as
>to whether folks are seeing
>more lions today then they
>have in the past?
>If so, in what areas?
> Do you agree with
>the DWR's population estimates for
>lions (approx. 2500-4000 statewide)?
>If not, do you believe
>that estimate too high or
>too low? Do we
>agree with the research that
>shows that the preferred food
>source lions in Utah is
>mule deer and that a
>mature lion takes on average
>one deer a week?
>I would like to hear
>from other sportsmen on these
>issues, particularly houndsmen.
>
>Until we avoid emotional reactions, we
>cannot have an intelligent discussion
>regarding this topic.
>
>-Hawkeye-
>
>My Favorite Expo Tag Quotes:
>
>"It is fair to ask how
>much comes in with the
>five dollar application fees and
>how much went onto the
>ground.? Don Peay of
>SFW during 3/31/2005 Wildlife Board
>Meeting.
>
>"There will be a full accounting
>of how the applications fees
>are spent.? Don Peay
>of SFW - 9/26/2006 -
>Monstermuleys.com

Hawkeye!

I Don't know for sure How Many Lions there are in TARDville & I'd bet there Ain't nobody that does!

I Do Believe the True Blue Hounders That Spend almost all their Time in one or two Specific Areas/Units would have way More Knowledge of Numbers than all the UDWR Officials Stacked in one Pile would Have!

So Taking All Your Top Hounders from each Unit and let them Estimate would be the Closest Estimate of numbers of Lions in My eyes/Opinion!

No!

You Don't let Joe Blow Hunter go out & let Him find a Track that has Crossed the Road 37 times & Have Him inform you He Seen Lion Tracks everywhere!

You're Right Hawkeye!

Lions Ain't the Only Problem with Deer Herds!

But what do We Hear Hunters Bittcchhing about the most?












I know so many people in so many places
They make allot of money but they got sad faces

It Ain't Easy being Me!:D:D:D
 
Wasted 45 minutes pushing the 20 second countdown button never ever got thru, got as far as lic and permits.
This a joke trying to get into buy a tag.
Got the same chance as a lottery ticket.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Yep they sold out in 15 minutes. I guess the way the new system is working. You need to go stand in line at Wally world to get a tag. It kicks all of us off. I did finally get on with three tags left on three different units. Before I could click on them to add to my cart. They where sold out.
 
Wow that was crazy their was a guy in line at 4 am waiting at 6 am their was 14 people in line 8 am rolled around 2 minutes later they where gone the ones I wanted anyways I will never wait in line again I'll try my luck on the website.
 
I burned 2 points to get a Manti west tag in the drawing got it so i could mentor my grandson the tag. I guess they just sold almost as many as were drawn lol thanks a lot dwr.
Bessy, i ran hounds in the yesteryear. Hunted a lot on Nebo, Wasatch, Manti. We caught our share. When the draw kicked in it seamed the bigger cats started getting popped, guys knew it might be a while before they had the tag again. I guess hunters were happy with @la big cat, even if it wasnt the biggest cat. I always felt that this was in part, some cause to the older class decline. I could be wrong, but i also thought that without the older Tom' a sub adult male and kittens had a much higher survival rate. As a large Tom was were there primary predator.weather killing a youg Tom for territorial reasons. Or killing kittens so a female in his territory would season up. This i belive was a plausible reason populations could increase with out older Toms available to hunters. Remember this was a while ago. Now, i no longer chase the music, havent had hounds for years. I think now the new breed of hunters think any lion is a trophy. I agree the age class taken is imbarrasing. But i also belive there are overpopulated areas, not as many as some think. But a few. I know of a huge tom on Dutton, that has been there for 4 years, yes i said 4 years, and my buddies first pic of him 4 years ago he was over 8 foot by my estimation. He is very unique and i am sure its the same cat. Ill ask if i can post a pic there are quite a few more cats in this area, but my guess is they are all female, if there were a male he would take care of it or it would find a new home. Just my .02
 
It is difficult to sit back and watch this happen eh. Was on Henrys last weekend. There's no feed. But, cattle are still there. Here's the problem as I see it. Cattle can be pulled off the range, sold or fed. Easy to replace feeders when range improves. We cannot do that with bison. When range improves we can't simply go to auction and purchase replacement heifers to increase herd size.
Truly wish the DWR would have thought outside their traditional box of kill and revenue. The drought will end.... emergency feeding is an option in spite of what they'll tell you. Most renowned bison herd in the world (imho) would have been easy to scare up some funds to feed the herd until the grass grows.

On the other hand.. over objective is over objective. It's just unfortunate that they couldn't manage the issue in a hunter friendly way.
 

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