$10,000 Finders Fee ????

Founder

Founder

Founder Since 1999
Messages
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LAST EDITED ON Aug-03-06 AT 11:17PM (MST)[p]Ok, I've been on one lately---really need to go hunting!!!

Anyway, what do you guys in Colorado think about the Utah invented "Finders Fee"? Heck, what do us Utards think of it?

Is it acceptable to you? Remember, these Governors Tags raise a lot of money.

Does it portray "hunting" wrong? Should a fee like that be put into play to motivate people to share what they know?

Is finding a deer via a hefty "Finders Fee" ethical?

If you had the money, would you pay a "Finders Fee" in hopes of killing a super buck or bull?

Finders Fee = Guides who have contracts with clients who have bought statewide tags (Governors Tags) will sometimes offer to the hunting public a "Finders Fee" (usually $10,000 or so) for telling them where a super buck or bull is that they ultimately kill.
Basically, offering a "Finders Fee" allows the main guide to employ hundreds, if not thousands, of people to search for a trophy buck or bull.
Finding huge animals is VERY hard for just 4-6 guides, as really big bucks and bulls are few and far between.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
The shooter of a "finders fee" animal has more money than self respect and pride. I spit on them. I don't want any more laws and regs passed to stop this stuff, I want everyone involved to be shamed to the point of not doing it.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
The root of this topic lies very deep and is intertwined with so many other aspects of our lives. Everyone's answer will be heavily influenced by their own financial situation and experiences. The truth of the matter is no one can say accurately whether it is "worth it", ethical, or shameful. Who are we to place value on something that everyone has the right to place their own value on. Furthermore just because we may not feel it is ethical or honourable does not make it so. So one can spend money how they choose, especially if it is not causing malnificence. That person who spends the money has earned the right to put that money back into the market anyway they choose. It does not affect the animal(which shouldn't matter if it did) in anyway way if a person pays a large sum of money to have it found. The question is does that person who paid the money still get the same gratification when he harvests the animal. If he does, it's his perrogative.
Does an athelete deserve the money he gets paid. If the market allows for it and an owner seems fit to pay it, it is their right to spend their money how they see fit. Bottom line, If someone is willing to pay it and it is not hurting anyone we shouldn't be worrying about it. If you choose to think less of that hunter for doing it that is your right as well. It doesn't mean that person is scum though.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-04-06 AT 00:25AM (MST)[p]I put a "finders fee" in the same group as "high fence" hunting..it's not how I choose to hunt but I don't condemn those that do. Like I always say, "whatever tickles your pickle as long as it's legal". I agree with D13er's statement that we don't need anymore laws or regulations.

www.awholelottabull.com
 
I didn't even think about High Fence hunting.

I guess my question is, how do you think none hunters view "Finders Fees" & "High Fence Hunting". Does it make us all look a little strange?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
 
without putting a whole lotta thought into it, i would say that if a person pays the kind of money i have seen paid for an auction tag, etc, and they want to pay a huge fee to some one that has some info on a good trophy i say it seems okay to me if the tag money raised is going to a good cause, such as wildlife habitat etc.. Not my way of doing things but I havn't spent 100K plus for a tag yet either.. Hmm wonder if my boss will give me that raise..
Bugler
 
Man you have been on one for about 4-5 weeks now!! haha

How about the $25,000.00 one for the big boy....

Robb
 
I think the whole practice of high dollar auctions for tags, and associated "finders fees" is an insult to our sport. I feel like the non-hunters find these practices offensive too. We are steadily and surely going back to the old european model of hunting is only for the very rich.

Phantom Hunter
 
IF IT AIN'T ABOUT BIG MONEY THEN I DON'T KNOW WHAT THE HELL ITS ABOUT!!!

GIVE ME NOVEMBER & DECEMBER & UNLIMITED MONEY & EVEN I MIGHT TAKE SOMETHING BETTER THAN A NOMAD BUCK!!!

TO HELL WITH THAT,I CAN DO IT WITHOUT THE MONEY!!!

I THOUGHT CANNED HUNTS WERE ILLEAGAL???

LOOK BOYS,THERES A BUCK(POST RUT!!!)(DECEMBER!!!)(HANGING ONTO HIS LIFE BY A THREAD!!!)(SNOW IS 3' DEEP!!!)SHOOT HIM,HURRY,BEFORE YOU WALK UP TO HIM I WANT MY FINDERS FEE,WOW!!!

I BELIEVE A HUNT SHOULD BE A HUNT,NOT A SHOOT,NO MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY YOU HAVE!!!

THE ONLY bobcat ACCEPTING FINDERS FEE'S IN THE N.E. REGION,IF YOU'RE INTERESTED IN A NOMAD HUNT I ONLY CHARGE 1/2 PRICE!!!
 
I would think that it doesn't paint a very good picture for the hunting community. I am not sure strange is the word for it but they definately look at hunters as a whole when talking about "bounties" on big game and hunting "high fenced" areas. Most of the non-hunting community have been pretty tolerant of our hunting needs so far. I am not sure that it's the actual actions that will be detrimental to the industry or the attention we as hunters bring to ourselves when we divide amongst ourselves on issues such as this one. It also makes me mad that the granola folks can't see past the nose on there faces when they look at the wildlife they so cherrish because you and I (all hunters) made it possible for them to enjoy seeing them. That's another thread for another day.


www.awholelottabull.com
 
Governors Tags should be about..

#1. Giving back to the wildlife. (donation)
#2. Opportunity. A statewide, all season tag is opportunity enough above all the rest of us po folk.

Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"
 
I know that if you keep posing questions on controversial subjects, people get stirred up and you get more activity on this website. ;)

There was a quote from Teddy Roosevelt in an article from Fair Chase magazine that was made almost a century ago and perfectly describes the thought process behinds the finders fee. I'll have to look it up and post it as I want to quote it exactly as it was written.
 
If you want a deer that way, then I have a mount I'll sell you for $10,000, then you dont even have to go out in the cold, hike, or get dirty.

AZG&F is the downfall of hunting in Arizona!!!!!
 
What's the difference ethically between a finders fee and a guide fee? If the tag holder is willing to pay and someone is willing to give the info then I don't see a problem. I have been offered one of these finder fees and turned it down because I was hoping to draw a tag in the same area the next year, not because I thought it to be unethical. If nobody was willing to give up info for a fee nobody would be offering the fee in the first place. So do we blame the $man or the guy looking to make a few bucks?
 
I can see it both ways. What about having a guy scout an area that lives in the area for some gas money and small fee ie 500-800 dollars? If you can get off work for scouting and you draw 3 good tags and are limited on scouting time. I don't see a problem paying a local for info on areas that hold good deer or elk. I don't like to see hunting turning into a money game. It's about getting in to the outdoors.
 
Brian,

The key question here in Colorado is how do they handle "finder's fees" legally? Colorado statute is blatantly clear that accepting any kind of fee, service or valuable goods in return for aiding a hunter in any way to find and take an animal is de facto guiding, and you cannot do that in Colorado without an outfitter's license. Further, a lot of these governor's tags are filled on public land winter ranges, and both USFS and BLM have their own permit systems for outfitters in addition to the state system. I know of several instances where illegal "guides" have helped gov tag holders take animals on a registered outfitter's public land allotment and the outfitter received nothing.

The DOW, unofficially of course, has taken the stance that gov tags bring in too much revenue to jeopardize them by "getting picky" about such insignificant regulatory matters. The DWM's simply have too much other work in other locations to be out in the field when these hunts are taking place, and surprisingly, none of the outfitter's whose areas have been trampled on have screamed too loudly...yet.

Personally, I have been contacted to help "find" monster bucks for some of these guys, but I simply refuse to do it. Not that I couldn't use an extra $10K, but for me, ethically I can't see my way clear to participate. It takes way too much for a buck to reach the age and size we all consider "trophy" status to end that by using dozens, if not hundreds, of people to help find and hunt an animal of that caliber. And I try to put the shoe on the other foot and imagine if I had the resources to buy a governor's tag and pay finder's fees, would I do it? I expect that I might indeed buy a tag (if I didn't blow all the money sheep hunting all over the planet!), but I would have very little satisfaction in taking a trophy buck that someone else had already found, patterned and just took me in to shoot.
 
Founder,
I think it is unethical, but more than that it is illegal. The people who do this base their argument entirely on grey areas, but I think it is black and white.

To me the bigger issue is the thousands of people that end up in the hills, in the winter range, late in the year pushing animals. Not to mention that I question the character of the type of guys that are willing to justify this type of activity in their minds as being ok. If they stretch the law to make this alright, how far of a jump is it for them to poach that 220" buck that they've been watching for weeks, without a game warden anywhere in the county.

I've personally seen them in action, and there is nothing sportsmen like, or ethical, or legal about what they do....Period!
 
Lets first define "Hunting"

Dictionary.com defines it as:

1) To pursue (game) for food or sport.
2) To search through (an area) for prey: hunted the ridges.
3) To make use of (hounds, for example) in pursuing game.
4) To pursue intensively so as to capture or kill: hunted down the escaped convict.
5) To seek out; search for.
6) To drive out forcibly, especially by harassing; chase away: hunted the newcomers out of town.

What do these have in common? The pursuit, specifically, "SEARCHING". The more you rely on others to do your "searching" for you, the less it is hunting and the more it just becomes shooting. The more it becomes just shooting the less of a difference it is between shooting something in a nat forest vs highfence area.


-DallanC

www.huntingnut.com
 
You're right Founder! You've really been on one! It kinda scares
me! First, I'd like to say thanks to Sneak & Peashooter for their
posts I have a lot of respect for you two, I think we think alot a like! What about the maginificent animal that,s grown to be such a
great trophy! Because he's the Bull of the Woods or the states
greatest Buck, he has a price tag on his head like Osama Bin Laden!
I think the practice of this is terrible! After all the hardships,
hunting pressure through general seasons, predators, winters and
drought this fine animal has endured, he still hasn't earned the
right to survive to the next season, like his lesser brothers and
cousins! Shame on the participants in this activity! Straight from
tag holder to the top of the Division! Folks will sell their sole!
 
A few years back a buddy and I were hunting a spike elk unit.
we were sitting a water hole about 3 miles from where the road closed sign shut the the truck and atv's down.

We get set up and things just start to settle down when
I hear Tim Freaking Mcgraw on a boombox, Sure enough here comes dildo one and dildo two on mountain bikes. They are all dressed in camo and proceed to park the bikes right next to the water.

I started looking to see if these two dildo's had bows which they did not. The weapon they did have was one hell of a canon video camera. The night was ruined so we piped up and asked them what they were doing. Turns out a certain guide was
"offering a lot of money for video of a monster bull"
This all happened on the Wasatch Unit near currant creek

I have heard that this practice is so common on the Pahvant
that it is beyond ridiculous. I have seen with my own two eyes as so called "guides and their video scouting crew" run large herds of elk off of plateau's into the dark deep and nasty so the "hunter" can have first crack at them when the LE rut hunt opens the next morning.

Guides are one thing MOST earn their living very honestly
and are professional at what they do but when you stop guiding and start writing checks for people to do your job for you
you are nothing more than a PIMP for a shooter.

If anyone needs a "guide" to tie up their game for them or herd elk into a canyon the night before the hunt, perhaps they should look up the differences between a hunter and a killer.
It don't take a lot of talent to pull a trigger or loose an arrow the work is in finding the animal you wish to harvest
and putting it all together.

Again, anything and everything for the almighty inch!!!
If this is what we have become then I look forward to a lifetime of two-points and spike bulls at least I will be able to sleep at night.
 
Bucky, you accusing founder daddy of drumming up posts ?
LongGun, were you talking bout me ? cause anymore it ain't worth my time for a meager 10-20 grand, that's why I had to increase my fee's this year to 30 thousand for each animal I locate, cept for elk they're kind of like insidious vermin, so I only charge $15,000- for them. Its hard now days to cover all my costs, I figured my chewing tobacco costs increased over 300% from two years ago & don't even get me started on fuel costs and Keystones. I know I may be loathed around here but I figured I'd only pimp out 2 more years then retire, that or just get me a sugar momma.
 
Very well put.Hunting is just that , with no garuntees of harvesting an animal.More and more guys look to simply pound their chest rather than to appreciate the experiance .Most guys can't wait to get back to town and computers to show off the trophy to everyone.I personally dread the trip home even on hunts where we have killed an animal , other than the fact that I get to see my wife and kids.
Success isn't nor should it be measured by the taking of and the score of an animal.There is a huge responsability in taking a life even one of a deer or elk.Success to me is enjoying nature and appreciating the oppertunity and challenge of fair chase hunting, top that off with a good friend and some great food and that spells success to me.
Finders fees SUCK!
 
Rumors of illegal activities are useless w/o evidence. It amazes me how someone can make a claim that somebody saw a certain outfitter chasing animals off into some deep dark canyon. If someone sees such activities they should report it! If you don't have proof, dont make claims! 99% of rumors are bull****. If someone is doing this we all should do our part to stop such actions!! Otherwise don't make claims you can't back-up.
 
Again, anything and everything for the almighty inch!!!
If this is what we have become then I look forward to a lifetime of two-points and spike bulls at least I will be able to sleep at night.


best shot i ever made and one of the hardest to get out deer i've ever got was a spike,,,, yea a spike but i worked my but off to get him ,,, and you know what? i'm as proud of him as i am the 26" toad i got a couple of years ago,,, Jason
 
Just another way for someone to grab attention and flaunt money....pretty sad. Would I pay 10K for a finder's fee? Hell no, even if I could. If I ever get that lazy to where I have to pay someone to scout for me in my home state, time to quit.
 
Think about this for a second. If you were the only person on earth who liked to hunt, and nobody cared if you killed a big buck or even cared if you killed a deer at all, would you still be a trophy hunter? How would you feel if you just killed the worlds record mule deer and NOBODY cared? They just looked for a second and went back to watching television?

It seems to me a big reason we all strive to kill Mr. Big is so we can show off. "Look at what a great (or lucky) hunter I am!"

I admit it, I dream of killing the "Buck of Justice" so I can be in magazines and be famous and maybe rich. (Well in my case it would probably be called the "Turtle Buck",lol). But if nobody cared then what would be the point?

I believe humans have a basic need to be accepted by their peers and even better, to be looked up to. That's really why people spend lots of time, effort, and money (sometimes BIG money) hunting. To be accepted or even revered by our friends. I guess it's just human nature. If it wasn't hunting it would be something else. Maybe I answered my oun question.

Having said that, man I hope I kill a monster buck this year!

Steve
 
interesting post, with a lot of interesting answers...wasn't gonna respond, but it keeps 'haunting' me...i have had many, many opportunities to help others find good critters, or for some, just plain ol' critters. because we are on a 'draw system' here for branched antler bulls, at least the areas i frequent, i make it a point to contact the fish & wildlife dept. to get a list of those that drew. if there is anyone i know, or possibly a relative of someone i know, i get hold of'em. if they are 'good people', i offer my 'services'...no charge...because i am 'out there', 'from time to time'...i usually know where, or when, the big ones will be at a particular spot. i have even traveled out of state and spent a whole week in an area i knew nothing about,on my 'own dime', because a friend drew a tag there for big bulls. he didn't have the time to scout, and i did. he got there the day before the season, got a great bull the next day, and stayed several more days, just to enjoy the scenery. he offered to pay me. i declined...last year, an out of state gentleman, whom 'got wind' of my luck at finding nice bulls, got hold of me, and asked for my assistance. i did some research, and discovered this fellow was, to say the least 'bucks up', as in 'mucho $$'...i asked a good friend to give me a hand in the hunt, because i knew he, like me, and was only there for the enjoyment. the gentleman took a terrific bull, after several days of passing on others. it was as thrilling for myself and my friend as it was for the 'shooter'...on the ride home, the hunter was in my truck with me, and his first words when we got alone were, "what do i owe your friend for helping?" when i told him "nothing", he 'understood'...he offered again, but he knew...we have remained very good friends since. i 'have the list' again this year, and am looking forward to making some new friends. i am not trying to 'blow my own horn' here....this is the very same thing that many of you would do had you the time to do so. the money would be great...but i just find doing this more rewarding, and i know most of you feel the same way...wow, sorry i got so carried away here...
 
Please, littlefoot, blow your own horn !!! You are a true adventurer and sportsman and understand that it isn't about money and shouldn't be. I would be proud to sit around a campfire with you.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
One more twist. All these finders are out there camping on the best bulls and bucks making it that much harder to hunt them as a private citizen. I know a guy who hunted the pahvant and had several bulls "bumped" by perspective "finders" because they did not want him to kill the bulls. Sick and wrong. This whole Governor/ Conservation tag deal has really reared it's ugly head. I am never really for more laws but this whole fiasco needs to be reigned in.
 
What a Fubar!! No respect to the wildlife here!! Just Money!! The so called monster deer use to have a chance Not if we put a bounty on his head.

Rut

Women love me!! Fish shudder at the mention of my name!!
It's not the quack but the flight of the wild duck that leads the flock to destiny!!
Quack Away!!
 
Kinda sad but to some its just what hey need to do I guess.I for one could never shell out money for that even if I had it to blow, kinda takes the hunt out of the hunt.

Littlefoot you are one class act my hats off to you.I too enjoy helping others out. Received a PM from someone I steered in a direction last year yesterday, made my day. Maybe one day these finders will realize the feeling of contribution and thanks by others goes further than the dollar.

Mike
 
D-cup,

I cut and pasted your last response to Littlefoot and am putting it under glass and hanging it on the wall. That's the nicest thing you've ever said. You do have a heart. I won't tell anybody.
 
I have spent alot of time on the Pahvant and Monroe both with the so called Headhunters and with people that would never take money for anything. I have never been paid a penny for scouting or information. I have chosen to share this with some people and not with others. Just like I am sure most of you have. I can tell you that hunters that draw premium tags can be as big of pricks or more so than than the Headhunters. The tag that a person draws is worth just as much as the tag purchased for high dollars and when we start to put high dollar values on any item be it big game or other more conventional commodities it brings out the cut throat in alot of people. With this being said I assure you that some of the best information I have recieved is from the Headhunters and for the most part everyone I have come in contact with on these units is just like most on this post. They love hunting, scouting and being outdoors. Most would be out doing this without any pay because it is what they love to do and the money inables them to do it more. I listen to a large number of people ##### on this website that they will only have one chance to shoot a big bull in Utah. Well I think there is alot more than just pulling the trigger. If someone that just wants to pull the tigger once a year wants to pay me enough to enable me to go out and do what I enjoy every year I am ok with that. In the mean time I will continue to spend time on these units and enjoy the wildlife and people I meet and hope I find a bull or buck that is worth $10,000 to someone. However I probably won't be sharing is this year as my brother in law has Pahvant Elk tag.
 
I think it was touched on here a little bit, The problem really starts when "Big Game finders" ruin your hunt trying to get video or pictures of a Big Bull/Buck for sale to a guide service, What can you do to keep said people out a area during say Archery season, NOTHING but your are seeing more and more guys out int the woods during this time with a hope and prayer that they get the big'um on tape, How many hunt have the ruined and not got nothing on tape or any pictures, You have a ton of guys running around mucking thing up, but they are just looking for huge payday, Where does it stop, people bumping game so you can't get a shot just so the game is still around for a "guide service can look it over and say yes or no, I think there will be some heated(some beatdowns)confrontations happening in the near future if some type of control isn't put in place to stop this behavior.Those of you who are doing this type of Video hunting during a season, It should be a ticket for "Hunter Harassment" and hunting rights should be pulled.
 
Littlefoot is the kind of people that we don't have
enough of anymore.

I agree with Jason wholeheartedly, the animal I am most proud of is the first buck I killed with my bow, a spindly ass two point.
 
I guess those of us who pass up two points aren't "real" hunters. If you draw a le tag and pass up a rag horn is that bad also? How about if you have family and friends out looking for your trophy le tag? Is that wrong as well? If so than isn't anyboby who puts in for a le trophy unit bad for the "sport"?


I have had alot more setups messed up by spike elk/deer archery hunters in le units (Manti,Wasatch,etc.) than guys with video cameras. Maybe I am jumping the gun on this one but, it seems as if some are resentful of someone else having more/better resources to get a trophy animal than someone else. Again if someone has evidence of unethical behavior turn the S.O.B. in!!
 
proutdoors,

You are one simple S.O.B. if you can't see the difference between family and friends helping out on a hunt and an outfitter dangling a $10,000 carrot in front of every limp d1ck in the state for trophy sightings.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
C'mon D...
...tell him how you "REALLY" feel!

Chef
"I Love Animals...They're Delicious!"
 
D13r thank god, I thought you were ill with that sugary nice post about littlefoot. :) Glad you're ok.

So, I definitely hate the whole cash for horns thing we have gotten into these days but being the devil's advocate is what I do best so...

On a sliding scale we have the following. The acceptance of this practice of scouting for someone else goes like this:

Scouting for friends and family - definitely OK - no comparison
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What littlefoot described - definitely OK.
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Scouting for a guide for money(where legal) - ???
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Guiding for money - ???
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Hunt consultants accepting fees for information on areas - ???
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$10,000 finders fees - bad


I don't know where you place the point on this slide where it goes from being OK to being Bad. I think it will be a little different for everyone. I think that point is a very personal thing depending on your financial situation and whether you have THE tag or A tag. I also think for most people that point on the line will change positions numerous times in your life (or maybe in a given year).
 
D13r, just curious, is there a limit on how many family and friends I can have out looking? If I pay for their gas is that wrong? Being simple I'm not sure when/where I cross the line each year. Please clarify. Does depend on my finacial status as well?
I think NVBighorn is right, for everyone that line is different. So who gets to say whose line is correct? Me, if I have resources available (family,friends,locals,dwr,etc.) I'll use them. And no I dont have $ and no I havent taken a finders fee.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-05-06 AT 09:21PM (MST) by Founder (admin)[p] proutdoors you can take your "jealous of people with more/better resources" theory
(MODERATOR EDITED)

You can spend your limit of "more/better resources" and
it will never make you a hunter. It will give you more trophy animals and more inches on the wall but did you really earn your take. Going down this train of thought I would bet that you were in favor of the TEXAS HUNTIN RIG!! You remember the gun in the blind out in Texas that had the webcam on it
all you had to do was wait till the buck of you dreams walked in front of the camera and hit enter. Clearly these folks that did this took advantage of the latest technology and "more/better resources". Are they HUNTERS?? Did they spend
one second in pursuit of game?? Does the buck in the Kamas
deserve to be SOLD to a shooter from out of state that is called and told to come shoot it because clearly his wallet has "more/better resources" than mine?? This ain't jealousy in what they have in comparison to what I don't. This is pure pity that anyone can take an animal in this fashion and feel that they have accomplished something?? these people aren't hunters the are freaking consumers!!!!

I tried to tell you last night pr there are lucky hunters and there are unlucky hunters in the field, Hell KTC may hunt all fall and never see the bull he has waited his whole life to take because some hunter in the unit he drew has one of his guy's camped on it keeping people away. You say report them what the hell are you going to report the guy for?? You don't have to harass anybody to keep a bull in a certain area for a few hours.

As far as shooting a PISSCUTTER Bull on a LE hunt, like I always say if you take the shot who gives a rats ass what proutdoors or anyone else thinks.

BESSY this guy is right up your alley I blame this
guy on you and the "more/better resource" inch mob.
 
i'm not trying to 'ride the fence' here, and stay on everyone's 'good side', but i will add this. if i knew of someone who was getting paid to 'help out' another hunter, i would surely not hold it against him. if that person was happy with what he did, so be it. in my own particular situation, i just like doin' what i'm doin'....
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-05-06 AT 05:55PM (MST)[p]Wow, along with the "welfare tags" outiftters get from our state agencies, and now the opportunity to take Mr. Bigs 10K, give it to some "scout" as a finders fee, then write that off on their taxes. Hell, I just may have to join the cabal. What other business is there where the state guarantees you an income by free set-asides?

Damn leaches.

I've ran into these skags out during the mule deer archery hunting here in Nv. Racing up and around the country "scouting" for the big bull.

Hunting has been so commercialized anymore, Its nearly nauseating. If your gonna guide for someone, get your sorry ass out there and earn the money! Don't use a chute plane, or slip that finders fee to some biologist. Earn it!

Guides used to be looked on as tough, good hunters. Now most are seen as salesmen who will do anyting to make the big buck, or get the big buck.

Sorry for the rant, and no disrespect to the honest outfitters out there. But this "industry" that defines hunting anymore turns my stomach.
 
WAIT A FRICKEN MINUTE ww!!!

ww!!!

TOUGHEN THE HELL UP CUPCAKE!!!

WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???

BE A MAN & KILL YOUR PISSCUTTER IN AN OPEN BULL UNIT JUST LIKE 1000'S OF OTHER PISSCUTTER SHOOTERS DO!!!

WHY TF DO YOU NEED A L.E. PERMIT FOR A PISSCUTTER???

OH,I REMEMBER,CUZZ YOU'RE AN OPPORTUNIST,THATS FRICKEN WHY!!!

YOU CAN BLAME WHOEVER THE HELL YOU WANT TO,IF IT WASN'T FOR PEOPLE LIKE SOME YOU WOULDN'T EVEN KNOW WHAT A 350"+ BULL EVEN LOOKED LIKE,LET ALONE EVER PULL A PERMIT TO HUNT ONE!!!

WE DON'T GIVE A RATS ASS WHAT YOU SHOOT,BUT IF ALL YOU'RE INTERESTED IN IS A PISSCUTTER YOU DON'T NEED AN L.E. PERMIT TO DO IT IN!!!

AARREE YYOOUU FFRRIICCKKEENN LLIISSTTEENNIINNGG TTOO MMEE??????

DOUBLE CAP LOCK!!!

BY THE WAY!!!

WE'RE GOING TO START MEASURING THEM TROPHY BULLS BY THE FOOT,PISS ON YOUR INCH THEORY!!!

THE ONLY bobcat ONLY TAKING PART OF THE BLAME FOR TROPHIES IN L.E. UNITS,IF YOU WANT TO BLAME ME FOR THAT,WELL THAT WILL BE O.K. BUT REMEMBER,PISSING & MOANING OPPORTUNISTS CAN WAIT THEIR FRICKEN TURN!!!
 
RE: WAIT A FRICKEN MINUTE ww!!!

BESSY are you snacking on the cactus buttons again
go back a read what I wrote CREAMPUFF.

This ain't a inch vs opportunity!!! I can guarantee 100% of the opportunists would be against BOUNTY HUNTERS and 99% of the serious inch/foot tape freaks would be against having the nomad 401 bull served up to them on a silver platter. Hell if that is the case I can tell you right now where there are a couple monster bulls, HOGLE ZOO AND LAGOON just have the guy driving the train slow down so you can make an ethical stalk and shot.

THE ONLY ww WANTING A FEW SHOTS OF THE COUGH SYRUP BESSY IS POUNDING TONIGHT AND MY FRICKEN CHECK FOR POINTING OUT THESE BULLS!!!
 
RE: WAIT A FRICKEN MINUTE ww!!!

OH and while I am on the topic you are going to absolutely love the ideas being discussed by the elk committee this go around!!!!
 
AMEN Jim !!!

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
RE: WAIT A FRICKEN MINUTE ww!!!

ww!!!

HOW MUCH DO I OWE YOU FOR THE FINDERS FEE CUZZ I AIN'T SHOOTING THEM!!!

NOT EVEN OFF A TRAIN!!!

I WILL HOWEVER GIVE YOU A SHOT OF catnip!!!

MAYBE EVEN SHOW YOU WHERE A PISSCUTTER BULL IS!!!

BUT I'LL BE DAMNED IF I'LL SHOW YOU A PISSCUTTER IN AN L.E. UNIT CUZZ YOU'D WANT TO SHOOT IT RATHER THAN LETTING HIM GROW INTO A DECENT BULL!!!

THE ONLY bobcat THINKING IF I'M A CREAMPUFF & YOU'RE A CUPCAKE WE REALLY AIN'T THAT DIFFERENT & YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO SEE THE LIGHT,THE SAME LIGHT THAT IS!!!
 
RE: WAIT A FRICKEN MINUTE ww!!!

LAST EDITED ON Aug-05-06 AT 07:24PM (MST)[p] Ha ha ha don't get me wrong BESS there ain't a bone in my body that wouldn't love to see at D!CKSTRAIGHTENER of a bull
over the end of my arrow. I just have a hard time when we call ourselves hunters and try as hard as we can to take the hunt out of the harvest.




THE ONLY ww WAITING FOR THE CATNIP AND PASTRIES
 
RE: WAIT A FRICKEN MINUTE ww!!!

ww!!!

IF & WHEN UPON I EVER PULL THE L.E. PERMIT!!!

I AIN'T PAYING A 1,000,000.00 FINDERS FEE!!!

POOR BOYS CAN'T DO THAT KIND OF CRAP!!!

AND MOST OF THEM WOULDN'T EVEN IF THEY COULD!!!

AND DON'T WORRY,I LIKE TO HUNT WAY MORE THAN I LIKE TO PULL TRIGGERS,UNLESS ITS A TUNE-UP,THEN I LIKE TO PULL THE TRIGGER!!!

THE ONLY bobcat NOT BUYING MY WAY INTO A BULL WITH BIG MONEY!!!
 
That Jim is sure a smart fellar, Right to the point too. Thanks for putting it out there plain for the hard to get it crowd.
 
Jim - I understand everything you are talking about and agree with 90% of it. I just wanted to clarify something in your statement. The tags are not alocated for outfitters. Outfitters that have permits to guide on public land bid on these tags for their clients. Once they get these tags then they start milking the "cash cow". They are not gauranteed tags for outfitters and although I am not an expert in this I would guess that "finders fees" accompany most of these tags. Considering that last year the winning bidder for the statewide mule deer tag paid $156,000.00, I would probably pay a finders fee too. Outfitters also pay very high prices for insurance policies that are required by law to get those guide permits from the BLM and USFS. With that said I agree with your oppinion with some reservation and for the record, I don't make it a practice in my business. I am not sure how tough I am but I work my butt off for what we get.

www.awholelottabull.com
 
notsowiley, you missed my whole point. Where do we draw the line? I have NEVER repeat NEVER paid or been paid a finders fee. What I am saying is how is you using family/friends different than a non-res using guides? Don't see how that makes you a better/more ethical hunter. Dont blame BOBCAT for my stance, I can defend myself. Just for the record I agree w/his stance on most issues over yours. But I still have no ill will against you or anyone else who disagrees with my positions.
If your happy taking pisscutters and two points good for you. That doesnt make you more of a hunter than me because I let them walk.
 
The guys that are buying these extremely expensive Gov. tags are mostly guys with inflated egos that have to say MINE IS BIGGER THAN YOURS!!! They certainly don't care about "HUNTING". Their mid-life crisis problems were never quenched. The problem is not having a few guys out looking for big bucks, it's that they are doing it in December and January. My only real gripe is the season dates. The DOW should cut the season off at the end of Nov. so the bucks can be left to survive the most difficult part of their life. Mule deer are a renewable resource as with all wildlife, but we should give them every chance to survive once hunting season is over. The big bucks are usually quite wary and can evade most hunters during the hunt, but they don't have much of a chance in the dead of winter.
 
This whole possee hunt, hunt anywhere the whole year is really out of hand. I just saw a well known hunter glassing a herd of elk in late December from the truck on TV in minus 35 degree weather after a short stalk he took a great bull. It was on some of Colorado's Ranching for Wildlife property. No telling how much stress he put on the other animals in the herd. 24/7 you can watch people glass from the vehicle, walk a hundred yards in brand new clothes fumble with a rifle they have obviously never shot over two boxes of bullets with, freak out when an animal the guide ranged at 120 yards takes ten more steps while they fumble some more and then act like Daniel Boone when they take a big animal on T.V. Conservation groups need to get more involved in habitat and ethics before it is to late. Its all about money, gadgets and instant success.
Has any one thought of game departments going out in late August and capuring several small bucks, or bulls and then ginding off all but a small piece of horn and using that to attach a set of world record replica horns. The same principle dentists use to attatch teeth. They could even dye the coats white. Then release them. What would a tag to hunt a Moby ##### Mule deer sell for?
Or maybe they could make an adult movie with some of the better looking secretaries and sell that. Remember it would all be for the games animals benefit.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-06-06 AT 05:49PM (MST)[p]AWHOLELOTTABULL, I am glad that you saw my caveat about still respecting those guides and outfitters that earn what they get. In Nv. the guides have somehow managed to garner an X amount of tags. To wit, there is a draw for "guided hunts." This is complete and thorough BS in my opinion. Its nothing more that socialized welfare for guides, many of whom are working other jobs, are ranchers, or are "retired" of their own volition.

Wyoming was barely able to beat back a similar attempt by the guides association there (sanctioned by the SFW-Wy. group). I believe that non-residents should be able to do DIY hunts without having to "pay for the priveledge" through a guide service. Or hire a guide should they so choose. Tags should not be set aside for people to make their living off of.

I have acquaintances who guide, and they do work and agonize each year on their success rate, a number that defines whether they stay in business or not. BUT, as sportsmen and sportswomen, we don't "owe" them a living.

I see a slippery slope here with these "finders fees" someone better get a handle on this, or hunting will be ruined as we know it. Look how crazy shed hunting has gotten. There are people practically "camping" on these animals waiting for bones to drop. Then race around on ATV's disturbing the country-side and habitat and the animals we supposedly cherish.

Its gotten insane folks. It really has. Its a competition for a limited resource. Ramped up even more by venues such as the ones we are visiting now. Magazines and TV shows and snuff videos. Anything to make a dollar on something that maybe shouldn't be exploited so much.

Sorry for the length of this rant. some of you probably got bored or disgusted the first paragraph. If I stepped on anyone here, well, thats how I feel. But I'm not the only one that recognizes that the future of hunting for Joe Average is in danger.
 
JimNv,

I am glad you had the patience and ability to type exactly what i've been thinking.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
Jim - that part about not being able to hunt as a non-resident without a guide I 100% agree. There is nothing more frustrating than to not be able to hunt area H in Wymoming without a guide. I promise you that I know that area better than 80% of the Wyoming residents. I am not sure what is behind that but it is definately frustrating. The same goes for brown bears in Alaska. I just got back from Alaska and personally saw 18 different brown bears in 13 days. The only thing I would have needed a guide for was to point me to the nearest taxidermist. Alaska's justification for that was that it drastically reduced their search and rescue expenses by decreasing the amount of people they had to haul out of the Alaska wilderness. Good post though Jim. Well thought out opinion.

www.awholelottabull.com
 
If you pay 5-7K for a guided hunt, how much of that cash is for info. My guess would be at least half of what you pay is just for info on good animals in the area.

Whats the difference between 3-4K compared to 10K

Its pathetic what money will do. Might make a guy go poach a couple of monsters to make his scouting business more profitable?????
 
Could happen ddy58, it's hard to command the big bucks with a photo album full of small ones.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
I guess if you can't do it yourself then you better find someone else that can. I guess these rich guys just don't get it.


"One nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
 
Scathing replies with sound reasoning here fellas.

Very impressive!

I read a quote in the summer 2006 issue of Fair Chase magazine (from the Boone & Crockett club for those who aren't familiar)that I referred to earlier in this thread. It was written by President Theodore Roosevelt more than a century ago and has a sense of timelessness that makes it apply with a great deal of accuracy to this Gov tag finders fee subject.

Rooosevelt states, "The mere fair-weather hunter who trusts entirely to the exertion of others, and does nothing more than ride or walk about under favorable circumstances, and shoot at what somebody else shows him, is a hunter in name only."

OUCH! How's that feel coming from one of our greatest presidents, the man who brought the combination of modern conservation and hunting ethic to the forefront of our country?
 
Right on Teddy! I think there should be a shorter season for governors tags that maybe ends after the rut. Keeping the winter range off limits. Also there will come a time when non-hunters will have to be banned during hunting season or changing harassment laws. It sounds like that may be now. That said if I could afford it I would buy a tag. But I would just take a friend and go hunting. It would not mean anything or be much fun to just go shoot something that someone else found.
 
Teddy is one of my heros, but he said "does nothing more than ride or walk about under favorable circumstances and shoot at what somebody else shows him" discribes not a single gov tag holder I've met in the past. It's falsehood to believe all these guys do is show up and shoot. If you haven't witnessed such activities personnaly then maybe it's best not to jump to conclusions. I'll be the first in line to stop the kind of behavior that Teddy was talking about.
Most fair weather hunters I know make less than it takes to buy one of these tags. Money gives one more opportunities not less ethics. If some one is unethical money or lack of money makes no difference. It may give an unethical person more chances to be unethical and such people should be reined in by those who witness such actions not by people who heard from their friends cousin's sister's boyfriend.
 
i have to agree with the guys that are aganist the finders fee. if you spend all this time scouting you know where the world record muley is you have earned to kill it not some rich person who will pay you 100,000 dollars to shoot it. think with your mind andnot your pocket.
 
I think that is what I would be thinking with. Is this deer or elk worth $10,000 to me? I would not pay that much to shot either, so why would I turn it down to let some one else. I can enjoy alot of outdoor time with my sons for $10,000. The problem does not stem from the guys getting the $10,000. It comes from the fact that these tags are even available.
 
Guys that pay finders have missed the true joy that comes from earning your trophy the old fashion way--sweat, blood, aching muscles, loss of weight, no sleep, missed oppurtunities, and finally success. That's hunting!Something the rich will never have.

Mike
 
Damn, all those finder fee dudes from CO last year DID NOT produce a pisscutter! It's not as easy as most assume it is!
 
I have to agree with proutdoors on this one. I associate every year with guys that make more money in a month than I will make in 5 years. The majority of these guys are hard working, love to hunt, make their own guns, make their own stands kind of guys. They really do have the right hunter ethics that you guys are talking about. I have the utmost respect for them. Granted there are a few that don't stand up to the higher hunter ethics but in my experience they are the exception and not the rule.

www.awholelottabull.com
 
Just my input not that it matters in these forums but I would dare say 99 % of us if we had the money would buy these tags if we had the chance. I know I would. I have drawn my once in a life time elk hunt here in Utah and had the time of my life. Now I sit and wonder if I will ever have that chance again. I feel bad for those guys that continue to accrue points and won't draw for many years. Because some lucky kid or first timer will draw out of luck with no points or SFW gets their hands on more of the public tags to auction away or to give away, how ever they see fit to use the publics tags. It's Unfortunate. I was at the RAC meeting last week and my understanding is that over the past 8-9 years elk tags have increased by 400 tags. I heard rumor that SFW will get around 200 tags this year for their banquets. Are any of us going to say or do anything or are we all out of luck. It seems to me the public really has no voice at all.

Onto the topic being discussed. The question I have is the punks out there looking to be paid finders fees. Do they have a license? Do they have insurance? Are they bonded? Do they pay taxes on the fee's they are paid? I'll bet none of them do. Is this fair to the outfitters who do it the right way or to any of us who have to pay taxes? Anything done on forest service land where money trades hands is considered commercial and they must comply with the laws and have a permit to do so. How are these guides and outfitters allowed to pay these guys who are not licensed, insured, or bonded? Awholelottabull you seem to be knowledgable in these topics, how is it allowed?
 
They are considered employees of the outfitter and up to this point have not been required to have a "guide license" in Utah. Colorado, Wyoming and New Mexico all have laws that require you to be a licensed guide. This is NOT an outfitters license. All it means is that you have completed first aid training and you are licensed by the state you live in to guide. You still have to work for a licensed outfitter. Utah is making changes and will require all "guides" to be licensed. It will be similar to checking for U.S. citzenship prior to employment, the outfitter will be required to employ only licensed guides. The outfitter is the only one responsible for carrying the insurance policy. This will hopefully fix the income tax problem you are referring to. It will hopefully prevent every Tom, ##### and Harry out there from guiding too. You would not believe the people that come up to our booth at these shows wanting to know if we are hiring guides. Some of them just started hunting. It is definately an eye opener.

www.awholelottabull.com
 
.....or it could happen like this. A friend of a friend see's the outfitters camp cook in the local bar and shows him a photo and ask's if his boss is interested. They meet in the sticks, relocate the animal and the finder accepts the thick brown envelope and drives home. Next morning the outfitter calls his golden boy with the news that through hard scouting they have located THE BIG ONE.

This is the scenario that happens and will be impossible to stop.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
I drew a Colorado high country rifle tag last year. I used a "finder" and paid him a fee. Why ? I wanted the best chance I could at killing a monster muley buck.

As I was walking in to this area he pointed me to, I ran across 3 locals who'd spent all summer, almost every weekend, spending their time away from their families, spending their money traveling etc all for finding a big old mule deer for themselves

They were going to be in the very same spot I was going to be in

They put in all the time and effort, I paid $500

At that point I felt like I'd cheated. I hiked into another canyon and stayed out of their way and wished them well in killing their big buck.

So what do I feel about finders fee's ? I think Hunting is suppose to be hard. I think that there are many, many facets of hunting and always the harder the hunt, the more valuable the memories. I think Hunting is something that encompasses the entire hunt, and when the focus switches to taking shortcuts to increase the chances of a big rack being taken home, more is lost than is gained.

I'd never do it again, and its something I wish I'd not have done. The guys that were in that canyon I think appreciated a fellow hunter understanding the difference between earning a buck, and buying one. I know I do
 
SO BRAD!!!

DID YOU END UP GETTING A BUCK???

THE ONLY bobcat GLAD TO KNOW THERES SOMEBODY SHOWING RESPECT!!!
 
You got that right Brad. It's not supposed to be easy. When you reflect upon the buck, bull or ram hanging on the wall, does the pursuit if that animal have the same nobility as the animal itself?

I don't care how you present it, there is no way you can compare a buck from a high country buck hunt taken by a guy with everything he needs for a week strapped to his back to some guy whomping a buck on the winter range in January in belly deep snow, more than two months after everyone else quit hunting.

Outstanding post Brad!!!!!!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-10-06 AT 10:15AM (MST)[p]Anyone that wants to pay the finders fee......just mail me the 10K and I will give you a shoulder mount of a buck over 200 inches. Then you wont have had to get cold or dirty.

Did you get a buck brad?

AZG&F is the downfall of hunting in Arizona!!!!!
 
Brad,

You are a credit to the hunting community and "understand" that the "hunt" is the experience, not the kill. Too many of us have forgotten that. Goodluck with your future hunts.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759
 
Great post Brad !

There seems to be a swelling of hunters who are just plain tired of all the nonsense that has been going on recently . Paying un Godly sums of money just to kill a high scoring animal , using aircraft to scout , run down , film or even radio down to so called hunters the locations of an animal , just to get their name in a record book . A record book who is against this very type of behavior . It's too bad and I think it leads to some questionable actions by a few .
 
Hunting has certainly become more commercialized today, so I can see how some have reached the point where they say enough is enough. However EVERYTHING has become much more complicated in our world today not just in the hunting world. It is impossible to think that hunting and hunting techniques are not going to evolutionize. Furthermore, everything gets more attention in hunting because it gets more coverage via media outlets that were not around in previous decades. This is not unique to hunting. Look at all sports. Hell, there is more coverage and speculation around the NFL draft in the off season then there is during the season. But you know what, I love the draft!

Flying to scout has been around for a long time and maybe some albeit a few have always been outspoken about it. However it's only until recently since the increase in use of ultralight aircraft that there has been such a negativity towards it. I do not believe flying to scout is bad, I feel it is a great tool. Again this has been done in the past but we did not have the internet and trophy magazines to constantly provide a forum for the subject to get hashed and rehashed about. It's all about perception. Secondly, I still do not see why paying what to you may seem to be ungodly money for a finder's fee makes the hunter a "bad" hunter. Why does this mean he only wants a big rack and doesn't care about the hunting experience? Money is always relative. I know plenty of folks including those who are complaining about spending $10,000 who would spend $500 to a friend for the help of killing a monster buck or bull that the friend had found. Well to some of these guys $10,000 is like $500. They've earned the right to have that money and spend it how they seem fit. It does not deductively mean that they automaticaly are only out for the rack and are any less of a hunter. Not all advancements and tecnology is bad. You have to look at the motives and effects of each issue.
 
In a sea or pinion/juniper, flying to scout might possibly give a hunter an incredible advantage over someone looking on foot. Its not hypothetical, its common sense and just being realistic. I think many people feel that this crosses the line in hunting ethics. Its not just a handful of vocal individuals on an internet website.

I think the degree of respect that Brad showed to those hunters that spent the summer scouting and attempting to "do it the right way" and earn their bucks is a strong indicator of the reverence he has for those type of hunters. I really don't want to speak for his thoughts but it was apparent to me that he strongly values and respects those types of hunters who work really hard at what they do and succeed through perseverence and dedication.

My friends don't ask for nor want $500 for help in killing a big buck or bull. If yours do, perhaps you need some new "friends."

I'm not trying to be a smart-azz, just engaging in conversation so no offense intended here.
 
Amen bubbas!!
People probably complained when automobiles were used to locate animals. Of the people who buy these tags alot of them are looking for something specifc and are willing to pay alot of money,hunt hard and go home with no animal at all. How is that not hunting? An unethical hunter has nothing to do with how rich the jerk is, it has to do with his integrety. Granted a rich jerk has more chances at being unethical, but being able to afford a gov. tag does NOT make one unethical.
 
So from what I am reading--most think this practice is deplorable, unlawful and unethical--and not even close to what most of us would defne hunting as, I don't disagree at all.

Infact I was glad to finally see someone use the PIMP word, in my opinion this is exactly what these so called guides are is PIMPs and those who work for them to collect the 10k finders fees are just what those that work for PIMPs are called. Period!

In Utah I see this as a real problem and it is caused by a monoply of having one or two boss PIMPs and a few sub PIMPs and a bunch of those other workers. If they were guides/outfitters they wouldn't have more than 4-6 hunters at a time.

As much as I hate government and new laws etc., there ought to be some regulations enforse here but its all about the money so likely it never will.


Shawn
 
proutdoors They are looking for something specific or they
are willing to hire others to HUNT and FIND something specific for
THEM You say these hunters are willing to go home empty, but it
sounds like they're much more willing to spend thousands to reduce that chance! They all have to get the BIGGEST... That's what it's
really all about! I wonder how many of these guys go home and tell
their story saying "Yep! I hired twenty guides, four airplanes and
a helicopter to take this baby, the bunch of us trapped him in 2 feet of snow! One of the guides radioed the GPS coordinates and Leroy and I jumped onto the snomobile, we traveled 45 miles an hour
for 15 minutes to get within rifle range! I had my gun sighted in at
600yds and took him with one shot just before he made it to the refuge! You're lookin' at the new #2 B&C buck! He'll make a dandy
trophy on my wall" Do you call that a good hunter? Good ethics?
Fair chase? Good example? Or just a DARN good way to get money from
somebody with a fat wallet at the expense of our wildlife?
 
No offense taken. I love a good discussion. When I said friends would pay $500 for a good animal it was in the following situation: A friend has been in a unit for a few years hunting/guiding and has located and patterned a good animal/trophy class. Another friend ends up drawing a tag in that unit so he asks the friend to help him kill that animal. I don't know about you but I don't like to take advantage of my friends so offering to pay the friend who has invested alot of time and money to pattern the animal seems like the right thing to do. How much that is would be dependent on how large the animal is and how much time and money they have invested in it. Think about it logically, it's fair and right to do that, especially if you have the means to do it. Now turn to a situation where someone that you aren't friends with is the one with the animal whereabouts. Is not their time and money investment worth that much more? So I say again, it is understandable to say well I wouldn't even want to pay my friend to help me kill an animal he found, because you wouldn't get any reward from that. To each their own. It's what you are comfortable with. But remember that isn't alot different than an animal rights activist not understanding how anyone can kill an animal period. They are not comfortable with the idea. Again, to each their own. It does not mean a hunter is a bad person or unethical to pay someone for info and help to kill an animal. They are comfortable with it and they get a rewardable experience out of it and on top of it, it is not illegal so where is the harm? Quit nit picking and raining on others parades. Ultimately it results in the same means to an end, one dead animal!
 
"proutdoors They are looking for something specific or they
are willing to hire others to HUNT and FIND something specific for
THEM You say these hunters are willing to go home empty, but it
sounds like they're much more willing to spend thousands to reduce that chance!"

Again, if you had the resources and was already spending money why not spend thousands more to reduce your chance of going home empty handed? That's smart not dumb. How can you honestly argue against that logic? That's what people do in the organizational banquets, they spend thousands more to get more chances to improve their odds of drawing. Again, it all comes down to money. It's great when you have it and sucks when you don't. I've been on both sides. I wish everyone had it. But don't question people's motives when they spend that money which ultimately goes back into the hunting community vs some other community. Come on, there are worse things people can do with money!
 
Its human nature to want to find an inside or easier edge and most instances are pretty benign. The grey areas get cloudy it seems the more money that is involved. Probably because the more money one is expending is in direct opposite of how much effort(or lack there of)one is putting towards hunting snd scouting their own animal. I guess at some point people people find the extremes that others are willing to go to or pay others to go to for a high scoring animal somewhat offensive.
 
A man sees a pretty lady so he walks up to her and says, "Hey, Baby, I'll give you $100 to spend the night with me." She slaps him so hard his teeth shake.

He tries again, "Hey, Baby, I'll give you $1000 to..." Before he can even finish, she slaps him so hard that it makes him cross-eyed.

"Woah on there, Darlin'...I've got $10,000 right here. Please don't hit me again. Just spend the night with me and it's yours." She looks at him for a second, gives him a warm smile and takes his hand. "Soooo...how about a quickie for $10?" he says.

"What kind of girl do you think I am?" she indignantly asks.

And he replies, "We already figured that out, Babe. Now we're just negotiating price."
 
"There seems to be a swelling of hunters who are just plain tired of all the nonsense that has been going on recently . Paying un Godly sums of money just to kill a high scoring animal , using aircraft to scout , run down , film or even radio down to so called hunters the locations of an animal , just to get their name in a record book . A record book who is against this very type of behavior . It's too bad and I think it leads to some questionable actions by a few ."


I agree, Its often posted on these very forums that these threads are pointless and will change nothing. I'm starting to believe there is value in these on line discussions. The more these topics get debated in an open forum the more people become aware of what is really going on.
 
And was is really going on? I disagree that the more money you spend the more grey areas get. There is no clouding of actions. The man pays another man for the info and help to go kill an animal. How is that grey? A man flys an aircraft to get an arial view to thus see more animals in a limited time that he May or may not have seen otherwise. How is that grey? Neither of these practices are illegal or does any harm to anyone or thing. How is that grey? Again, it all comes down to what YOUR opinion of what a worthy hunter should do. Hunting is the act of undergoing a series of events to ultimately kill an animal. Just because your series of events does not include scouting via aircraft or paying someone to scout or guide for you does not make you a better hunter. I know people who fly to scout and they could hunt the pants off of anyone of us, before flying in aircraft. Again, it's all what you're comfortable with. Why not just say I would never spend $10,000 dollars to have someone help me kill an animal or I would never spend $30,000 for an elk tag, or I would never fly an aircraft to scout and then leave it at that? Some of you can correctly make that claim but some can not because the've never had or never will have the resources to do it. Neither hunter is better than the other, it just means one has more opportunities than the ohther. Such is life.
 
Well Bubbas I guess we just plain disagree! To me, it would
be the same as you going to a Lakers game and you personally take credit for Kobe Bryant scoring 50 points! I wonder if your lucky
hunter has all the guides and equipment line up for a group photo!
That hunter didn't kill the animal, you guys did! If you hadn't located it, he wouldn't have seen it! But I guess that's what the world has come to, cheating and lack of honor justified by the
amount of money involved! (unless of course, you're not the guide
but the hunter) in that case, how about posting a picture of your
rocker) along with your crew!
 
bubbas , you may just be surprised at the number of folks who COULD afford it but choose not to fly aircraft etc. to pursue game .
 

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