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Rut Hunting...

 
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Longun
(3214 posts)
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Dec-04-16, 
08:36 AM (MST)
"Rut Hunting..."

Gotta rant a little...and correct me if I'm wrong...all the complaining about no big bucks anymore but I read about all these different states and shooting bucks during the rut...it doesn't take a rocket scientist to kill a big buck during the rut...the big bucks pass those dominant genes...and they are dominabt during the rut..

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  Table of Contents  

 Subject   Author   Message Date   ID 
 RE: Rut Huntin...  kickerbuck      Dec-04-16   1 
  RE: Rut Huntin...  elkassassin      Dec-04-16   2 
  RE: Rut Huntin...  Longun      Dec-04-16   3 
   RE: Rut Huntin...  Longun      Dec-04-16   4 
   RE: Rut Huntin...  elkassassin      Dec-04-16   5 
    RE: Rut Huntin...  elkassassin      Dec-04-16   6 
     RE: Rut Huntin...  tailchasers      Dec-04-16   7 
      RE: Rut Huntin...  Longun      Dec-04-16   8 
 RE: Rut Huntin...  Idahoshedhe...      Dec-07-16   9 
  RE: Rut Huntin...  Longun      Dec-08-16   10 
   RE: Rut Huntin...  Tristate      Dec-08-16   11 
    RE: Rut Huntin...  one_dryboot      Dec-08-16   12 
     RE: Rut Huntin...  Founder      Dec-08-16   13 
      RE: Rut Huntin...  nripepi      Dec-08-16   14 
 RE: Rut Huntin...  BrowningRage      Dec-08-16   15 
 RE: Rut Huntin...  elks96      Dec-08-16   16 
  RE: Rut Huntin...  HiMtnHntr      Dec-08-16   17 
 RE: Rut Huntin...  eelgrass      Dec-08-16   18 
  RE: Rut Huntin...  2_Point      Dec-08-16   19 
 RE: Rut Huntin...  Ruby1      Dec-08-16   20 
  RE: Rut Huntin...  marley      Dec-09-16   21 
   RE: Rut Huntin...  nontypical      Dec-09-16   22 

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kickerbuck
(240 posts)
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Dec-04-16, 
08:52 AM (MST)
1. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

And your point is?

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elkassassin
(14432 posts)
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Dec-04-16, 
08:55 AM (MST)
2. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

Hey Longun!

This Ain't Wyoming!

And I'll show You a Few Places that Ain't Easy To Shoot a Big Buck even During the Peak of the Rut!

They Gotta Survive the Hunts to make the Rut!

She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words

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Longun
(3214 posts)
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Dec-04-16, 
08:57 AM (MST)
3. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

my point is most of your Big bucks are getting shot during the rut...

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Longun
(3214 posts)
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Dec-04-16, 
09:00 AM (MST)
4. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

Elk... growing up in Eastern Oregon and Northern Nevada and Northeastern California...we didn't have a hunting season during the rut..and most of the time it was 3 point or better..I started deer hunting in 1967...

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elkassassin
(14432 posts)
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Dec-04-16, 
09:00 AM (MST)
5. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

>my point is most of your
>Big bucks are getting shot
>during the rut...

Na....................!

Not with Extended Archery Hunts & Late Muzz Hunts!

She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words

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elkassassin
(14432 posts)
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Dec-04-16, 
09:02 AM (MST)
6. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

Sent you a PM Longun!

She put a Big F.U. in My Future,Ya She's got a
way with Words

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tailchasers
(2728 posts)
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Dec-04-16, 
09:51 AM (MST)
7. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

California, now there's a great state to base wildlife and big game management success on. Oregon ain't to far behind either.

"Courage is being scared to death but
saddling up anyway."

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Longun
(3214 posts)
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Dec-04-16, 
11:31 PM (MST)
8. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

That is the main reason I left that part of the country 20 years ago...

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Idahoshedhead
(133 posts)
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Dec-07-16, 
12:39 PM (MST)
9. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

>Gotta rant a little...and correct me
>if I'm wrong...all the complaining
>about no big bucks anymore
>but I read about all
>these different states and shooting
>bucks during the rut...it doesn't
>take a rocket scientist to
>kill a big buck during
>the rut...the big bucks pass
>those dominant genes...and they are
>dominabt during the rut..

So im sensing some serious jealousy here...

Go back to "The good ole days" you know the time all of us wish we were around to hunt. The days before hunting became the popular thing to do.
Most all deer seasons were in the rut. So explain to me why didnt all the big mature bucks get killed off then?? To flat out say thats the issue is pure ignorance. Every year our optics get better, every year our camo gets better, every year someone from a point driven state is putting in 6 of their family members that have never hunted just so they can get an extra opportunity to hunt the LE units, and oh ya every ten minutes on social media there is a new piece of technology coming out to benifit the hunter. The real problem is technology and social media.
Every piece of technology that comes out to benifit us will actually harm our sport in the long run. Pretty soon we will have 5-10 day seasons bc harvest rates will just continue to climb.


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Longun
(3214 posts)
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Dec-08-16, 
05:32 AM (MST)
10. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

When I first started hunting...the season WASN'T during the rut..and here in Wyoming where I live..it STILL isn't..

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Tristate
(4021 posts)
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Dec-08-16, 
06:15 AM (MST)
11. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

Shot a big ol' giant last week courting a pretty little doe. It was great.

Your problem isn't the time of year which the big bucks are getting killed. Its a resource/ demand/ management issue. Fix that problem and you could kill your deer 365 days out of the year.

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one_dryboot
(4400 posts)
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Dec-08-16, 
07:32 AM (MST)
12. "RE: Rut Hunting..."


Colorado has had rut hunts for many years. They also have a thing called management. They don't let unlimited residents hunt and kill everything that moves. Works great.

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Founder
(5963 posts)
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Dec-08-16, 
08:23 AM (MST)
13. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

I remember hunting with my old style muzzleloader in Idaho during the rut, and the bucks were NOT easy to get, because the gun could only shoot accurately out to about 80 yards!

Now we have muzzleloaders that are accurate to 200+ yards, 1000 yard rifles, etc. It's technology that's taking it's toll on the game more so than when they're hunted.

But, all this stuff we have to make us better at killing the big bucks isn't going away, so.........

I'm not a fan of rut hunts either.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!

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nripepi
(879 posts)
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Dec-08-16, 
08:43 AM (MST)
14. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-16 AT 08:49 AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-16 AT 08:47 AM (MST)

Definitely understand the mixed feelings on the topic. I was just on a Colorado 4th season tag for the first time and the bucks were far from dumb (some of the fork horns were not acting too bright). The bucks were definitely more focused on does than during 3rd season, but there is only 2 days between the hunts. There were elk hunters everywhere during 4th season and the deer seemed to know to stay away from the hunters or not move when the wheelers were driving by. It was a good hunt, but by no means a slam dunk on 180" deer. This unit has 10,000 deer and they give out 10 tags, I don't think it does much to the deer herd and not a lot to the higher class deer. The key to a healthy deer tag with a good buck to doe ratio is to limit the total number of bucks shot, it doesn't really matter if you shoot them in January or July, but I would recommend to keep keeping them low during the rut so the big bucks can breed and pass on their genes.

This is CO, I think MT and other states that give out more tags during the rut might be a very different story.

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BrowningRage
(3025 posts)
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Dec-08-16, 
11:07 AM (MST)
15. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

If you're talking pure numbers, at least in the state of Utah, there are very few tags that allow a hunter to hunt during the rut. Especially if you compare it to the number of general season tags that are given out...

Higher harvest rates would account for a lot more big bucks being killed, and if you compare the number of people who tote high power rifles, with high power optics, vs those who used to carry a 30/30 or 30/40 back in the 70's... There's you higher deer harvest success rates.

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24

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elks96
(1548 posts)
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Dec-08-16, 
11:49 AM (MST)
16. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

No matter the timing and no matter the method of take, it all comes down to management decisions. If you have only limited and managed rut hunting, you can still have a lot of big bucks. Hell look at Antelope Island or any of the other very limited Rut hunts. It is matter of hunters vs. number of deer.

As some have mentioned we keep getting better at killing animals. With all the technology etc. we have to rely on management to set up the type of animals and age structure we seek. For comparison lets look at 3 states I am familiar with and 3 very different management types. This will be generalization based on my experience and realize that the entire state in eachcase difference etc.

Start with CO.

Limited License for deer statewide both Resident and NR. With very few exceptions 1 deer tag per hunter. the hunter must decided method of take and which season. Archery hunters have a month early in most of the state. Rifle Hunters typically get either 9 or 5 days based on season. A tpyical unit will see one group of hunters in September, A new group the last 1/2 of October for a week, A new croup the first of November and then one last group the middle of November. With the later seasons typically having fewer tags and fewer days. In Colorado they manage quality by limiting both the amount of time you get to hunt and the number of tags allocated.

Wyoming

Unlimited Resident General Tags. Totally Limited NR tags. Residents have a ton of options and on a general tag they can hunt from Sept. 1 into late October. So a 2 month long season is doable if they are willing to jump around the state into different units. The area we hunt as NR is easy to draw. There are tons of hunters on the rifle hunt. Truly a sea of orange experience. The difference is the time of the hunt. One area has a very short 4 day season early in Oct. the other area has a 12 day season. However almost all hunters and tag holders are done by Oct. 15th. in WY the areas we hunt are managed by length of hunt. The unit that is now down to 4 days was once a 10 day hunt, then excessive buck harvest moved it to 7 days and now down to 4. the quality of bucks is still low. Despite the 4 day rifle hunt.During those 4 days there is an ATV in every creek bottom on every ridge, and every place in between. There are huge groups of hunters who will claim every high spot spread over a several mile area looking with $3000 scopes and ready to jump into a $30,000 side by side and chase that one good buck down. In this area the limiting or controlling factor is time.

MT -

Unlimited OTC resident tags good through most of the state. In many areas the Hunter can start archery hunting in late august early Sept. And hunt almost nonstop until Dec. 1. Limited NR tags, however they are easy to get. That being said there are some good bucks in MT, but it is hard to believe that any good deer make it through year to year with such pressure and the idea of an unlimited rut hunt.

Having hunted all three, with out a doubt the quality in MT was by the worst of the 3 states mentioned. WY has some really great bucks, but the over all quality of the hunt is decreased because they cram all the hunters into certain areas for relatively short periods of time. However there is a very good chance a guy can find a mature buck in those general units simply because there is not enough time for those bucks to be found and killed every year.

Colorado really has the least amount of opportunity. Sure there are some units where a guy can hunt every single year, but with the current set up is is more likely every other for residents and every 4+ years for NR in a majority of units. Chances of killing a mature buck varies, but definitely seems more likely than either WY or MT, especially for a NR. For residents there is no doubt that WY is king for being able to kill mature bucks year in and year out due to the length of time and the ability for residents to hunt several areas through a relatively long season.


I have bee working on this summary for another project. But it seemed to add to this issue. I do not believe that a rut hunt inherently destroys quality unless it is like MT where there is no control of harvest.

Management decisions are by the most important factor when it comes to creating hunt quality. The number of tags, the method of take, the time of the hunt, etc. Should all be considered as the driving force behind quality.

As has been pointed technology is making us better killers. As a result the quality of deer will decrease unless we make management decisions to offset our increased ability to kill.

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HiMtnHntr
(1700 posts)
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Dec-08-16, 
12:10 PM (MST)
17. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

LAST EDITED ON Dec-08-16 AT 12:12 PM (MST)

I think it's ok if tags are very limited and numbers of mature bucks post season is good. It provides a very unique opportunity for those lucky few who draw.

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eelgrass
(19458 posts)
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Dec-08-16, 
01:07 PM (MST)
18. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

Longun, right around the mid 60's they shortened the blacktail season so it would end before the rut here in California. Before that it extended into November and sometimes the rut was going pretty strong.

You better have a big healthy herd if you plan on a general season that runs into the rut.

I'm not a fan of rut hunts either, but for some reason F&G like to have a few just to screw with us hunters, I guess. Sell them lottery tickets.

After that it seems all the states decided to get cute. They started offering limited entry, early, late rut, muzzle loader, early and late archery, junior, auction, sportsman's, high country, low country, landowner tags, etc. You almost need a lawyer to figure out how and where to hunt.

Even today I run across guys who will say "I've never hunted out of State before. I think I'll hunt in Nevada next year. My Dad used to go every year."

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2_Point
(1205 posts)
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Dec-08-16, 
01:21 PM (MST)
19. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

Plus one for Longgun.

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Ruby1
(64 posts)
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Dec-08-16, 
08:07 PM (MST)
20. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

I have to agree with Elks96. I have hunted the three states as well and I happen to be a resident of MT. My biggest buck is not from MT where I have lived & hunted for over 16yrs. As a matter of fact, I have seen bucks in every other state I have hunted (during my hunt) that were better than any buck I have seen in MT with a tag in my pocket. MT does have some great Bucks, but our management plan varies greatly from that of the other western states. Our mule deer suffer from an age class problem. We pound the bucks for weeks with rifles clear through all phases of the rut. It's difficult for a buck to make it to three years old. It's not about hunting during the rut, it's about how many people are hunting during the rut. MT is a perfect example. As a resident of MT, I don't like the way my state runs our hunts through the rut the way they do, but we sure offer a lot of "opportunity". I do agree that technology has played a significant role as well. I know it has helped me to become a more effective killer.

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marley
(1799 posts)
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Dec-09-16, 
08:48 AM (MST)
21. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

Let's say you have a buck that scores 220". His genes were the same genes when he bred does when he was 210" and when he bred when he was 185" and when he was 165" and when he was a 3 point and when he was a 2 point. His genes never changed. So killing him at 220" during the rut hasn't changed the genetic make up of the deer in that area.

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nontypical
(2831 posts)
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Dec-09-16, 
09:47 AM (MST)
22. "RE: Rut Hunting..."

Great points by all.

Marley says breeding age doesn't matter genetically. Absolutely correct. That yearling's genes are the same as they will be 5-6 years later.

G&F agencies have no control over deer populations. They have no control over weather.

The ONLY thing G&F agencies control is YOU; the hunter.

To allow unlimited numbers of hunters during the rut will absolutely have a negative effect on older age class deer. To think otherwise is ignorance.

However, allowing a limited number of hunters in a few select areas to hunt in November has been shown to NOT have any negative effect on older age class bucks under most circumstances.

Just curious; when does the rut begin?? Here in Wyoming, we have some LQ areas that usually run through the end of October. Mule deer bucks are actively chasing does around the 20th of Oct. I think most of you nonresidents would agree that Wyoming has some of the best mule deer hunting on the planet. But us long-time residents mostly feel like Wyoming sucks in many areas for older bucks. In fact; it does when compared to 25+ years ago. Why is that?? Of course, we don't have as many deer as we did in the early 90's. That's one reason. But ask a WGFD official why there aren't as many 4+ yr-old bucks as there was back then, and almost every one of them will point to 2 things: ATV's and long-range killing machines. I'm not talking about back-country areas( G&H; etc). I'm talking areas that are accessible to all. Although if one looks at everything in whole, you can see that unlimited resident hunting will( already is)have a negative effect on those regions as well.

It's all about management. Montana sucks because they allow unlimited hunters for way too long and into the rut. Colorado still produces great bucks even though they hunt in November. Rut hunting doesn't seem to have much effect on quality bucks there because of limited hunter numbers.

We rut hunt all other big game species. Mule deer can be hunted during the rut without long-term threat to older bucks as long as HUNTER NUMBERS ARE CONTROLLED.

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