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Thoughts on scouting for others

 
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Foreverwest
(80 posts)
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Feb-01-17, 
06:55 PM (MST)
"Thoughts on scouting for others"

Being the beginning of the year, I'm planning my fall and dreaming of being outside on the hunt. I live in Wyoming and have a passion for big mule deer. One thing that I have been wondering others opinions on is how everyone feels on the following:

Scouting out big game animals, specifically trophy mule deer, and selling the location to people.... and doing it without any type of outfitters license.

I know it is happening in Wyoming and there are buyers. Should it be allowed without any type of regulation? Should anyone with time on their hands be allowed to go scout out a trophy bucks demise and sell it? The bigger the buck the higher the price? Competing with outfitters who pay for their license and day use in national forest?

Who thinks it's ok? Who thinks it's wrong? Forecasting into the future, I can see it growing into a profitable side job for those doing it, and adding to the factors eliminating the big bucks.

I get the thought process behind it, but I believe it should be regulated just like the outfitters.

I'll be interested to hear everyone's thoughts.

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  Table of Contents  

 Subject   Author   Message Date   ID 
 RE: Thoughts o...  BLooDTRaCKeR      Feb-01-17   1 
  RE: Thoughts o...  schoolhouse...      Feb-01-17   2 
  RE: Thoughts o...  antlerradar      Feb-01-17   3 
   RE: Thoughts o...  HalfAce      Feb-01-17   4 
    RE: Thoughts o...  jm77      Feb-01-17   5 
     RE: Thoughts o...  35huntdeer      Feb-01-17   6 
      RE: Thoughts o...  RoadlessHun...      Feb-01-17   7 
       RE: Thoughts o...  jm77      Feb-01-17   8 
        RE: Thoughts o...  RoadlessHun...      Feb-02-17   9 
         RE: Thoughts o...  Foreverwest      Feb-02-17   10 
          RE: Thoughts o...  PleaseDear      Feb-02-17   11 
           RE: Thoughts o...  DW      Feb-02-17   12 
           RE: Thoughts o...  jm77      Feb-02-17   13 
            RE: Thoughts o...  Deerlove      Feb-02-17   14 
             RE: Thoughts o...  jm77      Feb-02-17   15 
             RE: Thoughts o...  JakeSwensen      Feb-04-17   36 
 RE: Thoughts o...  BrowningRage      Feb-02-17   16 
  RE: Thoughts o...  newguy      Feb-02-17   17 
   RE: Thoughts o...  mntnguide      Feb-02-17   18 
    RE: Thoughts o...  RoadlessHun...      Feb-02-17   19 
     RE: Thoughts o...  Founder      Feb-02-17   21 
    RE: Thoughts o...  jm77      Feb-02-17   20 
    RE: Thoughts o...  Sierra      Feb-02-17   22 
     RE: Thoughts o...  PleaseDear      Feb-03-17   23 
      RE: Thoughts o...  Longun      Feb-03-17   24 
     RE: Thoughts o...  mntnguide      Feb-03-17   25 
      RE: Thoughts o...  Deerlove      Feb-03-17   26 
       RE: Thoughts o...  mntnguide      Feb-03-17   27 
        RE: Thoughts o...  Teepee      Feb-03-17   28 
         RE: Thoughts o...  antlerradar      Feb-03-17   29 
      RE: Thoughts o...  Sierra      Feb-03-17   30 
       RE: Thoughts o...  huntin50      Feb-03-17   31 
        RE: Thoughts o...  SPAZ      Feb-03-17   32 
         RE: Thoughts o...  txhunter58      Feb-04-17   33 
 RE: Thoughts o...  Foreverwest      Feb-04-17   34 
  RE: Thoughts o...  txhunter58      Feb-04-17   35 
   RE: Thoughts o...  Founder      Feb-04-17   37 
    RE: Thoughts o...  Sierra      Feb-04-17   38 
     RE: Thoughts o...  mntnguide      Feb-04-17   39 
      RE: Thoughts o...  Founder      Feb-04-17   41 
       RE: Thoughts o...  nripepi      Feb-04-17   47 
     RE: Thoughts o...  Founder      Feb-04-17   40 
 RE: Thoughts o...  Foreverwest      Feb-04-17   42 
  RE: Thoughts o...  SDBugler      Feb-04-17   43 
   RE: Thoughts o...  SDBugler      Feb-04-17   44 
   RE: Thoughts o...  rockymtnhun...      Feb-04-17   45 
    RE: Thoughts o...  mulecreek      Feb-04-17   46 
     RE: Thoughts o...  Camper_A1      Feb-04-17   48 
      RE: Thoughts o...  antlerradar      Feb-05-17   49 
       RE: Thoughts o...  Founder      Feb-05-17   50 
        RE: Thoughts o...  bern      Feb-05-17   51 
         RE: Thoughts o...  nontypical      Feb-05-17   55 
        RE: Thoughts o...  antlerradar      Feb-05-17   52 
         RE: Thoughts o...  mulebuck      Feb-05-17   53 
          RE: Thoughts o...  Ruby1      Feb-05-17   54 
           RE: Thoughts o...  Squirrel      Feb-05-17   56 
          RE: Thoughts o...  Founder      Feb-05-17   57 
           RE: Thoughts o...  txhunter58      Feb-05-17   58 
            RE: Thoughts o...  BrianID      Feb-05-17   59 
             RE: Thoughts o...  Gator      Feb-06-17   60 
              RE: Thoughts o...  2_Point      Feb-06-17   61 
               RE: Thoughts o...  antlerradar      Feb-06-17   63 
                RE: Thoughts o...  txhunter58      Feb-06-17   65 
              RE: Thoughts o...  mntnguide      Feb-06-17   62 
               RE: Thoughts o...  DW      Feb-06-17   64 
                RE: Thoughts o...  Gator      Feb-07-17   66 
            RE: Thoughts o...  mulebuck      Feb-08-17   67 
             RE: Thoughts o...  txhunter58      Feb-08-17   68 
              RE: Thoughts o...  bugleb      Feb-09-17   69 
               RE: Thoughts o...  txhunter58      Feb-10-17   70 
                RE: Thoughts o...  Deerlove      Feb-10-17   71 
                 RE: Thoughts o...  nontypical      Feb-10-17   73 
               RE: Thoughts o...  SWAGshootn      Feb-10-17   72 
                RE: Thoughts o...  Founder      Feb-11-17   74 
                 RE: Thoughts o...  tx_packmule      Feb-11-17   75 
                 RE: Thoughts o...  Castnshoot      Feb-11-17   76 
                 RE: Thoughts o...  SWAGshootn      Feb-11-17   77 
                  RE: Thoughts o...  Founder      Feb-11-17   78 
                   RE: Thoughts o...  SWAGshootn      Feb-12-17   79 
                    RE: Thoughts o...  Founder      Feb-12-17   81 
                     RE: Thoughts o...  SWAGshootn      Feb-12-17   82 
                   RE: Thoughts o...  SWAGshootn      Feb-12-17   80 
                    RE: Thoughts o...  Founder      Feb-12-17   83 
                    RE: Thoughts o...  lostinOregon      Feb-12-17   84 
                     RE: Thoughts o...  Stubaby      Feb-13-17   85 
                     RE: Thoughts o...  huntin50      Feb-13-17   86 
                      RE: Thoughts o...  DW      Feb-13-17   87 
                       RE: Thoughts o...  Stubaby      Feb-13-17   88 
                        RE: Thoughts o...  DW      Feb-13-17   89 
                         RE: Thoughts o...  DW      Feb-13-17   90 
                          RE: Thoughts o...  huntin50      Feb-14-17   91 

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BLooDTRaCKeR
(984 posts)
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Feb-01-17, 
08:06 PM (MST)
1. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I think that is a bunch of crap!

I would be pretty upset to find some rich idiot waltzing through my elk hunting spot that took me years to find and many more years to understand the movement and habits of the elk. If he found it the same way I did, thats fine. But to pay someone to do all the dirty work so you can walk right into an area for the first time and kill? Where is the sport in that?!

If you need free hand outs, stand on the corner and hold up a sign. Otherwise, break out the boots and start doing your research on foot!

There ain't gonna be an animal left with drones hitting the sky, hunts from August to next year, long range weapons with inexperienced shooters behind the crosshairs, people whoring out wildlife locations for money, law breakers and poachers, atver's blazing trails......

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schoolhousegrizz
(632 posts)
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Feb-01-17, 
08:27 PM (MST)
2. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I usually stay out of this stuff, but I'll bite. First off, how on earth are you going to regulate something like this? Too many regulations can be a bad thing. Just like too much government. I get the argument of too many big bucks might die. I share that concern. However, it is very similar to guiding. If the guides do not like it because they have to buy their license, they can adapt to this new way of guiding. Perhaps, the guides will lower their prices due to competition. Why should someone have to buy a guide license in order to help out another hunter anyway? That's just more nonsense government. I know founder did this, this last season. However, I don't blame him. Great creative thinking on his part.

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antlerradar
(314 posts)
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Feb-01-17, 
08:27 PM (MST)
3. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

My bet is you can not legally due this on BLM or National Forest land with out a permit.

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HalfAce
(803 posts)
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Feb-01-17, 
09:15 PM (MST)
4. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

My two cents; I'm not too worried about it. If you add up all the bucks that get shot in a particular unit each year, ide say not even 1% of those are harvested by guys who paid for the info (not including guided). I think the bigger issue now days is the advancement in technology, but I wont mention what exact advancement since I don't want your thread to get de-railed. I'd bet my bottom dollar that more potential big bucks are wounded and lost or discovered with the technology we have at our disposal, than big bucks taken by guys paying for scouting info. Plus, I highly doubt guys paying to find out where a big buck lives isn't something that just started last season. Probably been going on for a long time...

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jm77
(1017 posts)
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Feb-01-17, 
09:50 PM (MST)
5. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

HB229 is currently going through the legislature in Wyoming and will make this practice illegal. It has been coined "Founder's Bill"

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2017/Introduced/HB0229.pdf

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35huntdeer
(56 posts)
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Feb-01-17, 
10:23 PM (MST)
6. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>HB229 is currently going through the
>legislature in Wyoming and will
>make this practice illegal. It
>has been coined "Founder's Bill"
>
>
>http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2017/Introduced/HB0229.pdf


Jm77
Good for WYOMING!

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RoadlessHunter
(326 posts)
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Feb-01-17, 
10:42 PM (MST)
7. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

LOL

If this bill is real, It looks like someone made the guides mad last year. Why don't they come out with a bill to help big game. Ban all horses for big game hunting and game retrieval. A hunter will think twice about shooting an animal 5 miles back in when they have to pack it out on their own backs. Then the guides would be limited on amount of hunter they can take into and area.

Does this bill affect drop camps? I suspect they may be illegal if this bill passes.

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jm77
(1017 posts)
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Feb-01-17, 
11:05 PM (MST)
8. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>LOL
>
>If this bill is real, It
>looks like someone made the
>guides mad last year.


What makes you think it's not real? Did you check the link?


>Does this bill affect drop camps?
> I suspect they may
>be illegal if this bill
>passes.

Again, what makes you think drop camps would be illegal? By the way, the bill does not pertain to licensed outfitters. It also has been amended to include selling a map with locations on it.

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RoadlessHunter
(326 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
00:02 AM (MST)
9. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

So an outfitter will be able to sell and send a guy in on the bucks, but regular Joe will go to jail if he sells out the same buck. This bill is just more outfitter welfare.

I hope it will still be legal to tell a friend I missed a buck in Region G. I will need to be less specific, so I don't get busted. I missed a big buck on a planet near Mars

It would be nice if we could get our own rules past, but then we would be the only ones allowed to hunt the mountain.

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Foreverwest
(80 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
00:22 AM (MST)
10. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I think you're missing the point. I don't see anything in the bill saying you can't bro out and help your buddies..... this is saying you can't do it for a profit. There's a difference.

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PleaseDear
(7870 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
03:18 AM (MST)
11. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

So if no $$$ is exchanged or some other gratuity, then you can still share intel with someone else---Correct?

Robb

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DW
(7752 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
04:53 AM (MST)
12. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I hear uber's the new side hustle.

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jm77
(1017 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
08:11 AM (MST)
13. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>So if no $$$ is exchanged
>or some other gratuity, then
>you can still share intel
>with someone else---Correct?
>
>Robb


That is correct Robb.

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Deerlove
(3992 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
10:17 AM (MST)
14. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

What a can of worms, what about the outfitter offering me a BIG discount if I put in with one of his clients that wont draw because he doesn't have enough points. What about the guy who was offering up to share his points to the highest bidder??

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jm77
(1017 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
10:24 AM (MST)
15. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>What a can of worms, what
>about the outfitter offering me
>a BIG discount if I
>put in with one of
>his clients that wont draw
>because he doesn't have enough
>points. What about the
>guy who was offering
>up to share his points
>to the highest bidder??


That issue will most likely be dealt with in the future...

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JakeSwensen
(304 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
11:05 AM (MST)
36. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>What a can of worms, what
>about the outfitter offering me
>a BIG discount if I
>put in with one of
>his clients that wont draw
>because he doesn't have enough
>points. What about the
>guy who was offering
>up to share his points
>to the highest bidder??

The guys jumping to the front of the line every year is an issue that I hope to see resolved soon. The same guys hunting G for 5 or 6 years straight is crazy when it takes 6 points to draw.
But if you're famous or you have a lot of money. I guess it's okay right. ha ha
Hopefully soon Wyoming puts a 10% cap on Non-resident tags like the surrounding states have. Don't worry there are ways to make up the revenue. Resident Bonus points for deer, elk and antelope would be a good start.


Jake Swensen

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BrowningRage
(3025 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
10:31 AM (MST)
16. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

What if it's trading information..?? Like, "Hey, I can tell you where to find a big buck, if you know where I can find a big bull..."

Then each guy goes and kills the animal that the other told them about. Didn't each of them receive "compensation" for their information..?? Does only the instigator get punished? Do either of them get punished?

There is absolutely NO WAY to regulate this. Why..?? Because common sense tells you that it doesn't need regulation.

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion!" 2 Ne. 28: 24

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newguy
(65 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
06:32 PM (MST)
17. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

It is my understanding that often times outfitters will pay big finders fees to people who locate big deer and elk, I have heard up to $10,000, so if this passes would this practice also be illegal?

Mark

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mntnguide
(171 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
08:13 PM (MST)
18. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Funny how immediately people blame outfitters for a law that really doesnt effect them...They will still book hunters whether founder can do his stuff illegal or not...that being said...I went to a game and fish meeting about a month ago talking strictly about the Sublette and Wyoming range herds (G/H) ...and game wardens were there as well...and there were ZERO guides/outfitters there...The wardens during their speech specifically brought up this website and Founders name and his little side business. They werent one bit happy with his ability to skirt around having to be an outfitting and abide by certain laws. . So I would be far to believe this came about right from game and fish. . When you basically do things blatantly in their face on about as borderline as illegal as you can...taking money for providing a service, which IMO is OUTFITTING. . but arent having to pay back to the state and taxes etc...then they arent to happy with ya!

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RoadlessHunter
(326 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
09:07 PM (MST)
19. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

So will this law be enforceable across state lines. If someone like Founder does all the paper work and money exchanging out of state will these outfitter welfare laws be enforceable?

The flip side to this is a guy will eventually run out of places to send people. One guy will buy a spot then it will be shared with hundreds of people. It only takes a couple guys in a good spot to mess the good spot up.

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Founder
(5963 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
11:14 PM (MST)
21. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Obviously I don't see anything wrong with scouting for someone. Not everyone has the time to do it. This new law in Wyoming is just geared to force people to use an outfitter.
I'll have to make some changes.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!

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jm77
(1017 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
10:57 PM (MST)
20. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>Funny how immediately people blame outfitters
>for a law that really
>doesnt effect them...They will still
>book hunters whether founder can
>do his stuff illegal or
>not...that being said...I went to
>a game and fish meeting
>about a month ago talking
>strictly about the Sublette and
>Wyoming range herds (G/H) ...and
>game wardens were there as
>well...and there were ZERO guides/outfitters
>there...The wardens during their speech
>specifically brought up this website
>and Founders name and his
>little side business. They werent
>one bit happy with his
>ability to skirt around having
>to be an outfitting and
>abide by certain laws. .
>So I would be far
>to believe this came about
>right from game and fish.
>. When you basically do
>things blatantly in their face
>on about as borderline as
>illegal as you can...taking money
>for providing a service, which
>IMO is OUTFITTING. . but
>arent having to pay back
>to the state and taxes
>etc...then they arent to happy
>with ya!

Outfitters pay ZERO license fees to the Wy G&F. Their license fees go straight to the Outfitter Board which is mostly made up of, you guessed it, outfitters. Much of the revenue received by the board in the form of outfitter and guide license fees is used to pay investigators who police illegal outfitting.

Given the G&F is a state agency that cannot advocate for legislation, would it be fair to assume this bill was solicited by outfitters?

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Sierra
(647 posts)
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Feb-02-17, 
11:14 PM (MST)
22. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>Funny how immediately people blame outfitters
>for a law that really
>doesnt effect them...They will still
>book hunters whether founder can
>do his stuff illegal or
>not...that being said...I went to
>a game and fish meeting
>about a month ago talking
>strictly about the Sublette and
>Wyoming range herds (G/H) ...and
>game wardens were there as
>well...and there were ZERO guides/outfitters
>there...The wardens during their speech
>specifically brought up this website
>and Founders name and his
>little side business. They werent
>one bit happy with his
>ability to skirt around having
>to be an outfitting and
>abide by certain laws. .
>So I would be far
>to believe this came about
>right from game and fish.
>. When you basically do
>things blatantly in their face
>on about as borderline as
>illegal as you can...taking money
>for providing a service, which
>IMO is OUTFITTING. . but
>arent having to pay back
>to the state and taxes
>etc...then they arent to happy
>with ya!

I'm not saying that you're lying, but that sounds like a fairytale. I thought game wardens were supposed to enforce laws, not make them?

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PleaseDear
(7870 posts)
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Feb-03-17, 
03:40 AM (MST)
23. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>So if no $$$ is exchanged
>or some other gratuity, then
>you can still share intel
>with someone else---Correct?
>
>Robb


That is correct Robb.


Thanks -77 as I try and help many each year.

Robb

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Longun
(3214 posts)
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Feb-03-17, 
04:40 AM (MST)
24. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Whore Hunting...its the oldest passion...

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mntnguide
(171 posts)
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Feb-03-17, 
07:14 AM (MST)
25. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"


>I'm not saying that you're lying,
>but that sounds like a
>fairytale. I thought
>game wardens were supposed to
>enforce laws, not make them?

Why would a game warden want to stop an act that is basically illegal outfitting but just skirting the law as close as you can while advertising it in full view on a website..ya I have no idea why that would piss of law enforcement....I have no reason to lie, just saying what I heard at a meeting and it surprised me when I heard it brought up. Doesn't affect me one bit, I buy the tag OTC and am not worried about being pushed out of my spots


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Deerlove
(3992 posts)
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Feb-03-17, 
07:42 AM (MST)
26. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-17 AT 07:43 AM (MST)

MTN where do outfitters fees go? To the state or somewhere else?

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mntnguide
(171 posts)
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Feb-03-17, 
08:59 AM (MST)
27. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>LAST EDITED ON Feb-03-17
>AT 07:43†AM (MST)

>
>MTN where do outfitters fees go?
>To the state or somewhere
>else?

Considering they are a registered Wyoming business I guess I assume some of the money made makes it back to the state in taxes etc...but ive never been an outfitter so I am by no means an expert on that aspect

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Teepee
(157 posts)
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Feb-03-17, 
10:51 AM (MST)
28. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

"Hunt consultation services" means providing to a hunter:

(B) Maps, drawings, illustrations or any other documents for the purpose of showing the location within five hundred (500) meters of any specific previously scouted big or trophy game animals.

How on God's green earth would this provision be enforceable? "Founder" or anyone else could simply put a "pin" on Google Earth, email it to a "client" with the statement that the buck was 510 meters from the pin and it would meet the letter of the law. Or what am I missing?

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antlerradar
(314 posts)
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Feb-03-17, 
11:02 AM (MST)
29. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I think that to operate a business on federal land you must have a permit. It is possible that founder violated this last year. If I were founder I would look in to what the rules are on this before I did any paid scouting next fall. All most certain the people that do not like the idea of paid scouting will be watching closely.

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Sierra
(647 posts)
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Feb-03-17, 
12:06 PM (MST)
30. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>
>>I'm not saying that you're lying,
>>but that sounds like a
>>fairytale. I thought
>>game wardens were supposed to
>>enforce laws, not make them?
>
>Why would a game warden want
>to stop an act that
>is basically illegal outfitting but
>just skirting the law as
>close as you can while
>advertising it in full view
>on a website..ya I have
>no idea why that would
>piss of law enforcement....I have
>no reason to lie, just
>saying what I heard at
>a meeting and it surprised
>me when I heard it
>brought up. Doesn't affect me
>one bit, I buy the
>tag OTC and am not
>worried about being pushed out
>of my spots

Founder was either breaking the law or not breaking the law. There's no "bascially illegal outfitting but just skirting the law...". Since they didn't go after him, it's probably safe to say that he did not break the law.

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huntin50
(908 posts)
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Feb-03-17, 
01:11 PM (MST)
31. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Outfitters association get the non res wilderness rule to protect the WY outfitting business.

A non res can fish, hunt small game, and camp in wilderness, but suddenly it becomes too dangerous to hunt big game?

I agree some people don't have the time to scout, and can't afford a guided hunt, sharing info and scouting should be OK in my book. It happens in other states as well. Maybe it could be regulated. How are finders fee's regulated? Or are they?

Long range shooting, high power scopes on Muzzle loaders, bows with range finders that can shoot 100 yards, drones, trail cams,etc are all taking a toll on our big game animals.

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SPAZ
(419 posts)
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Feb-03-17, 
04:58 PM (MST)
32. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Are these guys paying taxes on these wildlife pimping operations?

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txhunter58
(5554 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
06:38 AM (MST)
33. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Don't think there is any way to stop it with a law, just like law / regulations didn't stop brokers from selling landowner tags in Colorado. Illegal to scout for specific trophy animals? So you just charge for a map to a "good area to hunt". If a guy has a good reputation, you can infer what that means but wouldn't be illegal. Personally don't see anything wrong with it. The hunters are still DIY. They have to get there, hunt, shoot straight, and carry the game back to the truck. And a weather change or some hikers the day before can move a big buck out of the area, so giving a guy a map with a circle on it is a far cry from guiding.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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Foreverwest
(80 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
10:08 AM (MST)
34. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Lots of good discussion here. Thanks for all the input. I guess we should all get used to the greed for money and big antlers always clouding things and causing problems in one way or another.

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txhunter58
(5554 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
10:45 AM (MST)
35. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Greed can be a good or bad thing and a healthy debate is always OK, because even at 58, my opinions are not cut in stone. That said, the one time I have used a service like this, I was given a map and told he had seen some good bucks there, but no pictures or even descriptions of specific bucks were given. This was a hunt that took 9 years to draw at the time (14 years now). I parked at 6500 ft and backpacked uphill 4 miles to a campsite around 10,500 and timberline was another mile up from camp. I got a nice buck there and packed him out on my back. One of the best trips I have ever had, and it was/is not dimmed by the fact that someone helped me decide where to go. What I did is not exactly what we are talking about, but is shades of grey in the ballpark. I suspect if I lived in the area where this was happening I might have a different perspective, just as I would have a different perspective about NR license fees that just keep going up on us. Bottom line is that this activity will continue. It is up to states if they want to try and regulate it.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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Founder
(5963 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
12:20 PM (MST)
37. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Well, on this subject, some think it's wrong to scout for anyone else at all, some would say it's ok to scout for their child or relative, others think it would be ok to scout and trade the info. with someone for info. on another place. Some think it's ok to share info. for free and some think it's ok to share the info. AND cost to gather the info. with others (that's me). I think opinions vary quite a bit.
Where should the line be drawn?

I've had a few guys tell me sharing info. on bucks is ok if I do it for free. BUT, while I wouldn't do it, if I did post all the info. about all the places I visit on my site or anywhere else, I'll bet those people who currently say it's ok to do for free, wouldn't be singing that tune anymore and they would want to outlaw me from sharing free info. too.
BUT, most of those same people would have no issue if I, or anyone else, shared the info. ONLY with them personally. They'd be hunting that big buck without any complaints about how someone else helped them. That's my opinion.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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Sierra
(647 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
01:15 PM (MST)
38. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-17 AT 01:15 PM (MST)

That's a pretty good summary Founder. People are in it for themselves.

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mntnguide
(171 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
02:23 PM (MST)
39. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Correct me if im wrong....You basically got paid to scout for yourself..because you had a tag last year, and every time you found a bigger buck for yourself to hunt, you were willing to sell off the info on the previous one? Because thats what I think a lot of people have issues with your service last year especially...you were doing it for yourself far more than you were "helping others". . Anyone who can spend decent amounts of time scouting G/H knows that it is not hard to find 180 class bucks in summer in numerous locations...so you just started selling off their info until you found the buck of your choice. . How is that different from bounty's being paid to people like Mossback, Brock etc with governor tags and the such? This is why I believe Game and Fish has focused on this issue, because you are selling off individual bucks, just like an outfitter would scout one and take a hunter to it. You are 100% assisting in the hunt and taking compensation for it, which is in my opinion the definition of outfitting....Just honest thoughts on how it looks and why people arent fans of it

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Founder
(5963 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
02:59 PM (MST)
41. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Those guides and anyone else who hunts that country would be affected the EXACT same whether I get compensated for the info. I share or gave it away for free.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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nripepi
(879 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
08:11 PM (MST)
47. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I think the issue is that you likely would not give the info away, why would you? Likely you would just keep it to yourself, so then there is a difference to outfitters and others hunting by you making a profit.

I don't think it is a big deal now and I would use the service, but I think it is closer to outfitting then not. How much does an outfitters license cost?

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Founder
(5963 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
02:34 PM (MST)
40. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

If I called every mule deer hunter on the planet, showed them this buck and stated that I didn't want to hunt him, but would give them the info. and they could hunt the buck with nearly no other competition, what percentage of hunters would take me up on the offer?
What percentage would buy me a cup a coffee for the info.?
What percentage would buy me lunch while talking about it?
What percentage would trade info. on a place they know with me?

I think the percentage would be 95+. I believe the vast majority of hunters would take me up on the offer in some way.

I personally have no clue about where to hunt Caribou, so if I were going to do it, I'd be willing to take information from someone who has great info. I'd probably have no issue with paying for it if it was good information and saved me from needing to drive 16+ hours to try and scout and learn an area I've never been before and might never return to again. I think many people would do that. And it would be no big deal if they did. There might be some diehard Caribou hunters who would think I'm a lesser hunter than them because I didn't drive the 16+ hours and scout, and I'd be ok with that and I wouldn't feel guilty about it, although they might want me to.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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Foreverwest
(80 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
03:34 PM (MST)
42. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I look at our game animals as beautiful and magnificent creatures in our wilds that we as outdoorsmen and women have the opportunity to enjoy and harvest. The trophy class animals that actually make it to a mature age have enough to deal with before humans come into the picture. I see no harm in scouting and helping out friends or someone helping you out on a hunt elsewhere. I just believe that there is a fine line being walked when the information is being sold for a profit. As I mentioned in the beginning of this post, one worrisome thing I look at is into the future.... i want to make sure my children and grandchildren have what we have now. If any Joe blow can go spend his summer scouting and putting together a hit list of big bucks, and selling them off.... where is the line drawn? There's always going to be buyers, regardless of the price. There's a reason there's a limited number of outfitters allowed in certain areas....there's a reason for regulations. We need to forecast into the future and consider the impacts that we have in our actions.

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SDBugler
(554 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
04:35 PM (MST)
43. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

With lack of good definition this proposed legislation is very vague. For example:

Scenario 1:
A hunter brings a friend(s) or relative(s) along on a hunt to help out. Said hunter pays for friend(s) or relatives(s) food, gas, etc. Friend or relative finds a nice buck/bull and takes or directs the hunter to the buck/bull's location. Wouldn't this be considered illegal under the proposed legislation since friend/relative received "compensation" ( food, gas,etc.)?
I'm glad I'm a diy solo hunter because 99% of the people on this site, including guys who are opposed to what founder provides, would be guilty.

Scenario 2:
Hunt'n Fool provides a list of names of previous tag holders to a person who recently draws a tag. One of those previous tag holders tells the current tag holder about a certain animal that they saw during their previous hunt and where it was at. Wouldn't Hunt'n Fool be breaking the law because they profited from both hunters subscription fees?


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SDBugler
(554 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
04:44 PM (MST)
44. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Getting back to the OP's question about "scouting for others".
I think it is funny that so many are opposed to "buying" and "selling" info to locate a good animal but have no problem with hunting with a party of friends or relatives to find and hunt one animal(one tag). They in turn justify their actions by saying that they are "sharing in the experience".

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rockymtnhunter
(80 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
05:38 PM (MST)
45. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

SDBugler - I can tell you that Scenario 1 will definitely get you in trouble in AZ; AZ is very aggressive in investigating/prosecuting anyone who helps another hunter and receives any form of compensation.

While I'm generally fairly neutral on this issue, as I read some of the posts I do see a potential slippery slope that concerns me - and that is that in the future there are "scouters" combing the hills all during the summer "mining" information that they can sell to others to make $$ - adding yet another pressure on mule deer herds. This is a function of supply & demand - I think there will always hunters willing to pay for info about big bucks, and that demand will inevitably lead to others trying to make $$ from that demand. Hopefully I'm wrong...

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mulecreek
(853 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
06:16 PM (MST)
46. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

IMO Founders side hustle prioritizes all the wrong things. It places a premium on antler size. It is just one more way to monetize the killing of big animals. It does nothing more than provide short term gain to himself. The last thing that our western wildlife need is other, in the long line of people, that are looking to profit off antler size. It will have absolutely no long term benefit to heritage of hunting.

People are on here everyday complaining about what hunting has turned into and how it use to be about something bigger than the size of the antlers. Dozens of us reply in agreement. Founders business craps all over that. It removes one large chunk of the hunt from hunting and emphasizes B&C score.

That being said. I don't think he is a bad guy for doing what he is. He is just promoting an aspect of modern day hunting that I happen to disagree with. I also don't think we need another regulation to stop it. However, I wont spend anytime writing my legislator in opposition to HB229.

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Camper_A1
(631 posts)
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Feb-04-17, 
08:26 PM (MST)
48. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

So how is this much different than a scouting package
You can pay for in a lot of states? If Founder got his outfitter license would that quiet the critics?

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antlerradar
(314 posts)
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Feb-05-17, 
06:30 AM (MST)
49. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>So how is this much different
>than a scouting package
>You can pay for in a
>lot of states? If Founder
>got his outfitter license would
>that quiet the critics?


He would still need a permit to operate on public land.

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Founder
(5963 posts)
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Feb-05-17, 
08:17 AM (MST)
50. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>He would still need a permit
>to operate on public land.

I don't "operate" on public land. All my business and consulting is done from my chair in my house. Just like any articles I were to write about hunting out of state, it's done from my office, not out of state. Just because the subject of the consulting might be out of state, doesn't mean I'm conducting business there.
80% of the people who use this website live outside of Utah, but the business I conduct is here. Most of my web design clients are outside of Utah, but I conduct business here.

Thousands of magazine articles have been written about hunting, quite a lot of them were probably written about a place they hunted out of state. You don't need a forest service permit to write or tell people about forest service land.

Brian Latturner
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bern
(99 posts)
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Feb-05-17, 
09:20 AM (MST)
51. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>>He would still need a permit
>>to operate on public land.
>
>I don't "operate" on public land.
>All my business and consulting
>is done from my chair
>in my house. Just like
>any articles I were to
>write about hunting out of
>state, it's done from my
>office, not out of state.
>Just because the subject of
>the consulting might be out
>of state, doesn't mean I'm
>conducting business there.
>80% of the people who use
>this website live outside of
>Utah, but the business I
>conduct is here. Most of
>my web design clients are
>outside of Utah, but I
>conduct business here.
>
>Thousands of magazine articles have been
>written about hunting, quite a
>lot of them were probably
>written about a place they
>hunted out of state. You
>don't need a forest service
>permit to write or tell
>people about forest service land.
>
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!


do you have scouting packages for your home state of Utah ???, or do you get more bang$$ for your scouting packages in Wyoming, i am sure most hunters in Wyoming are not happy with your scouting package business, thus you have your own founders bill HB229

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nontypical
(2831 posts)
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Feb-05-17, 
01:52 PM (MST)
55. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-17 AT 01:55 PM (MST)

Mulecreek- +1000. My thoughts exactly. I agree with everything you posted.

Longun- +1000 to your comment as well.

Rockymountainhunter- You are NOT wrong. Just follow the money...right?

Here's my 2 cents, for what it's worth( probably half of that!). Founder is supplying a commodity that there is a market for. Those who purchase that commodity feel the need for it. No issues here. However, there is a bigger concern here for me personally. And should be for everyone.

Foreverwest- This is a good thread. I agree that the bigger issue here is beyond supply and demand. Mulecreek stated it very well. It's about hunting heritage. That seems to be disappearing at an alarming rate in today's "instant gratification" society. It's no longer about HUNTING. Today it's all about ego, greed, and inches of bone. NO MATTER HOW AND AT WHAT COST. This is exactly why WGFD showed disdain with Founder's side business. Not because they think they could get a couple dollars off him. Not because they think it hurts outfitters. It's because PEOPLE HAVE LOST SIGHT OF WHAT HUNTING IS SUPPOSED TO BE. They deal with it every day. ATV's going off road. Long range hunting. Posse hunting. Trailcams. Etc, etc, etc. People constantly asking "where's the big bucks?". Where do we draw the line? You can spin it any way you want to, but that's really the bottom line. Is the true meaning of hunting getting lost somewhere along the line?

What I can't figure out is why Founder wants to tell anyone about his hunting spots! I guess he doesn't mind company where he hunts. Pretty sure that info will go beyond the guy he sells the info to. As if G&H weren't already crowded enough. Your personal hunting will eventually suffer for your own deeds, Founder. Just sayin'.

Is this legislation needed? I'm indifferent about it. Like Mulecreek, I won't make any calls to my legislators concerning this bill. I love hunting. But I hate where hunting is headed.

Probably won't matter anyway. Deer hunting in western Wyoming will probably be terrible for a few years after this winter...

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antlerradar
(314 posts)
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Feb-05-17, 
11:32 AM (MST)
52. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>>He would still need a permit
>>to operate on public land.
>
>I don't "operate" on public land.
>All my business and consulting
>is done from my chair
>in my house. Just like
>any articles I were to
>write about hunting out of
>state, it's done from my
>office, not out of state.
>Just because the subject of
>the consulting might be out
>of state, doesn't mean I'm
>conducting business there.
>80% of the people who use
>this website live outside of
>Utah, but the business I
>conduct is here. Most of
>my web design clients are
>outside of Utah, but I
>conduct business here.
>
>Thousands of magazine articles have been
>written about hunting, quite a
>lot of them were probably
>written about a place they
>hunted out of state. You
>don't need a forest service
>permit to write or tell
>people about forest service land.
>
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!

You could be right, or the some one at one of the Public land agencies could decide you are outfitting. I am going to ask about this at the next RAC meeting I am at.

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mulebuck
(242 posts)
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Feb-05-17, 
11:39 AM (MST)
53. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

IMO, ďScouting out big game animals, specifically trophy mule deer, and selling the location to peopleĒ is no different than guiding/outfitting. I was a guide, fortunately for only a very short time in my life. Iím thankful I did it. It opened my eyes and Iíll NEVER do it again. You can call it whatever you want but in the end I just donít agree with WHORING out big game to make a profit.

As mentioned, it is indeed a slippery slope in regards to attempting to regulate said ďscoutingĒ and/or defining it. ĎMore or lessí regulation is very much dependent upon the need for action in a particular area. Iím sure this has been going on for quite a while in every state out west. Is it getting worse though? I believe so. Do states do something now to address it, ignore it, or wait until it gets even worse? I know I wouldnít be opposed to HB-229.

This ideal is wishful thinking but I had hoped it would all come down to integrity. For me, I just donít feel good about myself after whoring out a buck for a little bit of money. (Are guys really that desperate? I guess so, but I can think of many other ways to make some side money). I would rather see that big buck or bull live another year (or longer) so others like myself could continue to observe, photograph, shed hunt, and possibly having a chance of harvesting one day.

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Ruby1
(64 posts)
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Feb-05-17, 
01:43 PM (MST)
54. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

This is a great topic of discussion. Here's what I think. Finding animals for someone else is not the same as outfitting. It is one part of outfitting, but outfitting includes much more in my mind (like a guide that is present at the time of the kill). Let's face it, finding a big buck often times is the hardest part of a hunt. I take great pride in personally locating the animals I chase. That doesn't mean I wouldn't take info from someone on the whereabouts of an animal, but IT IS NOT THE SAME THING AS FINDING IT YOURSELF. Everyone's definition of a trophy is different and if you are ok with someone else showing you an animal then so be it. That's why we have so many outfitters. I think there is a lot to be said about the guy or gal who goes out and gets it done own there own. I have a hard time with the person who can't stop bragging about their trophy, when they only did PART of the job.

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Squirrel
(594 posts)
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Feb-05-17, 
02:43 PM (MST)
56. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"


Illegal outfitting is largely covered by all the western states, so all you are arguing about is how do you define outfitting. Even the enforcers can't agree. Case in point, I rent llamas out to hunters (as well as others).

I can do any silly thing I want to until I take a dollar for it.

Everyone agrees: renting from my house is 100% legal...


Everyone agrees: renting and accompanying them down the trail is illegal...

But there is plenty of gray in between: Plenty of outfitters say I can't leave my yard, except on 100% personal trips, obviously they have a dog in the fight.


Forest service has opinions all over the place depending on which district you call and what they had for breakfast that day...
County or state highway delivery point? All say is OK, but dare to turn onto a forest service road and then it gets interesting, lets just say opinions vary.

Anecdote: FS wanted me to haul their ##### in for a trails maintenance project 2 yrs ago. I pointed out that they had just committed a felony and were asking me to do so, they said I was just a sub-contractor therefore not covered. It ALWAYS depends on whose ox is being gored, or whose back is getting scratched... It was plainly illegal outfitting.BTW

The private sector is always pushing the limits of law as written with the legislators reacting, and often over-reacting, creating new "loopholes". In todays world it is largely influenced by the incredible advances in technology.

Most outfitting is based on compensation, and accompanying, and generally includes providing gear/guidance. Many terms are open to some situational interpretation. And almost all can be covered simply by a license and insurance if you are playing on the edges.

The devil will (as always) in the wording of any changes made and if they can withstand a court challenge, should be doable but we will see.



My current situation precludes me from caring about your opinion but go ahead and give voice to it anyway...

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Founder
(5963 posts)
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Feb-05-17, 
02:46 PM (MST)
57. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Statute........
"Guide services" means for hire or remuneration, accompanying and providing assistance to a hunter in the field relating to the taking of any big or trophy game animal...."

Nothing about sharing information about what you know about an area or information on game found. It specifically says ... accompanying and providing assistance to a hunter in the field.

BUT, they'll get the definition changed and I'll have to share my knowledge in another way or not at all.

I do understand the concerns you all have. I just feel differently about it all. I like hearing the opinions, whether they're the same as mine or not.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!

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txhunter58
(5554 posts)
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Feb-05-17, 
03:28 PM (MST)
58. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

"It (outfitting) opened my eyes and Iíll NEVER do it again. You can call it whatever you want but in the end I just donít agree with WHORING out big game to make a profit."

Wow, tell us how you really feel! You are entitled to your opinion but I suspect most hunters dissagree. I mostly go on DIY hunts, but I have also been on guided hunts and private land hunts. There is one particular ranch in Colorado owned by a friend that I have hunted elk numerous times. We enjoy hunting the same ground multiple years even though we generally know where the elk will be. Guess my friend is just a pimp too. Oh, and he actually CHARGES some hunters to hunt there during other seasons and even gives them advice on where the elk might be. Double whammy

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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BrianID
(942 posts)
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Feb-05-17, 
08:37 PM (MST)
59. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I actually agree with Mulebuck. I don't think there should be any guiding for hunting or fishing on public lands. That is just my opinion though and understand there are many others that think guiding is a good thing.
What I really have problem with is outfitter welfare. Wyoming has the "wilderness" areas. New Mexico and Idaho have tags set aside for outfitters. As long as what Founder does is legal, I think he should be allowed to do it. As far as I'm concerned, what Founder did last year is less harmful than what outfitters do. What Founder does bothers me less than the way outfitters pimp out wildlife. On top of that, outfitters in many areas create a monopoly on the public lands they guide on.

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Gator
(14856 posts)
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Feb-06-17, 
12:05 PM (MST)
60. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

LOL if you don't think the outfitting lobby isn't behind this deal you must be a tad slow.Birds talk to other birds to get stuff done without getting their hands dirty. I don't care if the F&G is leading the charge, But when the rubber hits the road, you ask who has the most to lose a outfitter in "G" or the state tax people.
Now that 500 ft deal sure is a "wiener" That animal must never move to eat and drink or it might fall inside the 500 foot mark and now you are guilty, just how in the H#ll is that suppose to work.

Founder you sure ruffled someone feathers. Which outfitter has most lose in that unit or units.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>Life member of
>the MM green signature club.


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2_Point
(1205 posts)
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Feb-06-17, 
02:38 PM (MST)
61. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

A professional photographer needs a permit to take photos on federal land if he is going to sell the photo. Videographers need a permit on federal lands if they are selling the footage. Guides need a permit on federal lands if they are providing a compensated service. A guy needs a permit if he takes a photo of a buck on federal lands then uses that photo to be compensated.

www.fs.fed.us/working-with-us/contracts-commercial-permits/special-use-permit-application

Look at the second bullet point
When do I need a special-use permit?
If there is a fee being charged or if income is derived from the use.

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antlerradar
(314 posts)
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Feb-06-17, 
04:25 PM (MST)
63. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>A professional photographer needs a permit
>to take photos on federal
>land if he is going
>to sell the photo.
>Videographers need a permit on
>federal lands if they are
>selling the footage. Guides
>need a permit on federal
>lands if they are providing
>a compensated service. A
>guy needs a permit if
>he takes a photo of
>a buck on federal lands
>then uses that photo to
>be compensated.
>
>www.fs.fed.us/working-with-us/contracts-commercial-permits/special-use-permit-application
>
>Look at the second bullet point
>
>When do I need a special-use
>permit?
>If there is a fee being
>charged or if income is
>derived from the use.

I talked to a friend that has worked for the forest service for close to 25 years. It is likely that to charge for scouting on forest service land you would need a commercial permit even if the business is not located on federal land. I have no idea how hard it would be to get the permit but I would bet that at some point in time that the public and other people with a commercial permits, like outfitters would have some say in the matter. If I was to start a scouting business it is something I look into. As controversial as payed scouting is likely to be one best have all the I's dotted and the T's crossed.

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txhunter58
(5554 posts)
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Feb-06-17, 
07:58 PM (MST)
65. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>>A professional photographer needs a permit
>>to take photos on federal
>>land if he is going
>>to sell the photo.
>>Videographers need a permit on
>>federal lands if they are
>>selling the footage. Guides
>>need a permit on federal
>>lands if they are providing
>>a compensated service. A
>>guy needs a permit if
>>he takes a photo of
>>a buck on federal lands
>>then uses that photo to
>>be compensated.
>>
>>www.fs.fed.us/working-with-us/contracts-commercial-permits/special-use-permit-application
>>
>>Look at the second bullet point
>>
>>When do I need a special-use
>>permit?
>>If there is a fee being
>>charged or if income is
>>derived from the use.
>
>I talked to a friend that
>has worked for the forest
>service for close to 25
>years. It is likely that
>to charge for scouting on
>forest service land you would
>need a commercial permit even
>if the business is not
>located on federal land. I
>have no idea how hard
>it would be to get
>the permit but I would
>bet that at some point
>in time that the public
>and other people with a
>commercial permits, like outfitters would
>have some say in the
>matter. If I was to
>start a scouting business it
>is something I look into.
>As controversial as payed scouting
>is likely to be one
>best have all the I's
>dotted and the T's crossed.
>

But that deer is not owned by the federal government. It is owned by the state and people of Wyoming.


txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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mntnguide
(171 posts)
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Feb-06-17, 
02:40 PM (MST)
62. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-17 AT 02:42 PM (MST)

>LOL if you don't think the
>outfitting lobby isn't behind this
>deal you must be a
>tad slow.Birds talk to other
>birds to get stuff done
>without getting their hands dirty.
>I don't care if the
>F&G is leading the charge,
>But when the rubber hits
>the road, you ask who
>has the most to lose
>a outfitter in "G" or
>the state tax people.
>Now that 500 ft deal sure
>is a "wiener" That animal
>must never move to eat
>and drink or it might
>fall inside the 500 foot
>mark and now you are
>guilty, just how in the
>H#ll is that suppose to
>work.
>
>Founder you sure ruffled someone feathers.
>Which outfitter has most lose
>in that unit or units.
>

You realize that founders service will not effect outfitters at all! They will be booked with clients with or without his service available. The people who go guided in G are going guided no matter what...his service helps out the person who is anti-outfitter already, but likes the idea of someone else doing the leg work for them but then they can tell everyone they did it themselves after the hunt...you actually think outfitters are one bit worried about business with this service?...Resident DIY hunters on the other hand are none to welcoming to a non-res coming in and selling off info on specific deer when he's not even doing this "service" in his own state. Think about it a little

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DW
(7752 posts)
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Feb-06-17, 
05:09 PM (MST)
64. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>LAST EDITED ON Feb-06-17
>AT 02:42†PM (MST)

>
>>LOL if you don't think the
>>outfitting lobby isn't behind this
>>deal you must be a
>>tad slow.Birds talk to other
>>birds to get stuff done
>>without getting their hands dirty.
>>I don't care if the
>>F&G is leading the charge,
>>But when the rubber hits
>>the road, you ask who
>>has the most to lose
>>a outfitter in "G" or
>>the state tax people.
>>Now that 500 ft deal sure
>>is a "wiener" That animal
>>must never move to eat
>>and drink or it might
>>fall inside the 500 foot
>>mark and now you are
>>guilty, just how in the
>>H#ll is that suppose to
>>work.
>>
>>Founder you sure ruffled someone feathers.
>>Which outfitter has most lose
>>in that unit or units.
>>
>
>You realize that founders service will
>not effect outfitters at all!
>They will be booked with
>clients with or without his
>service available. The people who
>go guided in G are
>going guided no matter what...his
>service helps out the person
>who is anti-outfitter already, but
>likes the idea of someone
>else doing the leg work
>for them but then they
>can tell everyone they did
>it themselves after the hunt...you
>actually think outfitters are one
>bit worried about business with
>this service?...Resident DIY hunters on
>the other hand are none
>to welcoming to a non-res
>coming in and selling off
>info on specific deer when
>he's not even doing this
>"service" in his own state.
>Think about it a little
>


Reminds me of the first Mexican framing crew I saw back in the early nineties, didn't really bother me either. Think about it a little.

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Gator
(14856 posts)
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Feb-07-17, 
10:18 AM (MST)
66. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

You don't think it going to bother a outfitter that a big buck or several of them is taken from his area with founder information, You must have your head under the covers.
You can bet that the guys that are outfitting can see that if this kept up they will have less big ones for there paying clients to find and hunt. This bill is more about them losing some money. then is about taxes or any other lame crap they come up with. Wyoming outfitters do rule the roost when it comes to hunting big game in Wyoming.
Right now they are showing some of that power.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>Life member of
>the MM green signature club.


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mulebuck
(242 posts)
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Feb-08-17, 
02:27 AM (MST)
67. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

>"It (outfitting) opened my eyes and
>Iíll NEVER do it again.
>You can call it whatever
>you want but in the
>end I just donít agree
>with WHORING out big game
>to make a profit."
>
>Wow, tell us how you really
>feel! You are entitled
>to your opinion but I
>suspect most hunters dissagree.
>I mostly go on DIY
>hunts, but I have also
>been on guided hunts and
>private land hunts. There
>is one particular ranch in
>Colorado owned by a friend
>that I have hunted elk
>numerous times. We enjoy
>hunting the same ground multiple
>years even though we generally
>know where the elk will
>be. Guess my friend
>is just a pimp too.
>Oh, and he actually CHARGES
>some hunters to hunt there
>during other seasons and even
>gives them advice on where
>the elk might be. Double
>whammy
>
>txhunter58

You really think "most" hunters agree with whoring out big game for profit? I highly doubt it. However, I completely understand the need for a guide/outfitter. I'm sure I will get to point in my life where I consider it one day.
As far as your friend with the ranch in CO... I'm not sure that really applies here. I was under the impression we were all talking about public land. He does sounds like a pimp though. ;)


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txhunter58
(5554 posts)
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Feb-08-17, 
06:12 AM (MST)
68. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Yes, I do think that most hunters would disagree with your thoughts on the subject. Also, not sure how you can say that outfitters whore out game, then say you will use one some day.

Private land is certainly different, but not to the game that is hunted. Because you/public can't have access, you don't care as much except to call landowners pimps. We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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bugleb
(75 posts)
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Feb-09-17, 
11:38 PM (MST)
69. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

The thing that bothers me the most is the posse hunting that some outfitters indulge in. One outfitter in Utah likes to post pictures of his posse of up to 15 scouts posing with a trophy animal that some great white hunter has harvested. The posse has done everything except pull the trigger and wipe the great white hunter's butt. The the way the "Spider Bull" was located and the hunter flown in to kill it while the posse camped on it is truly sickening.

I don't think the service Founder offered last year is a good idea simply because once he gives away the locations all his good areas, he has no further control over it. Those hunters can pay once and return to the same areas themselves as well as with anyone else that they want to bring with them for years, even decades to come.

For example, I had a friend that brought his bro-on-law from Salt Lake City to our favorite bow hunting area in central Utah. His friend returned each year with ever more other hunters until withing a few years they crowded us right out of our favorite spot.

So, even though I don't think it is a good idea, as long as it is legal to supply information, and Founder wants to do it, that is fine with me. Founder does spend an awful lot of time, effort and money scouting and I don't begrudge him trying to get a little bit back from selling information. As for myself, I live pretty close to Wyoming and would rather do my own scouting, and I have kids and grandkids that can get Wyoming tags every year, so I can go hunting with them every year and not have to carry a heavy rifle around most years. I don't have to find a max point holder to piggyback with

The outfitters are obviously behind the proposed law, just like they are behind the restrictions on non-residents hunting wilderness area. I still remember when non-residents had to hire a guide to hunt any Forest Service land in Wyoming, and how the outfitters squealed like gut shot apes when the courts put a stop to that.

Unless they can get a federal law in place, or make it illegal for anyone but an outfitter to scout for game anytime, anywhere in Wyoming, I don't see how Wyoming can stop someone in Utah from selling information to someone in say Texas. How can they legally control that information and money exchange.

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txhunter58
(5554 posts)
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Feb-10-17, 
06:09 AM (MST)
70. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I have never hunted Wyoming or even put in for points there so maybe I am wrong, but I was under the impression that it is pretty limited in the tags that are issued and it takes some years to draw a decent tag. If that is true, then telling "Uncle Joe" and him bringing other hunters to the area is not really an issue.

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)

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Deerlove
(3992 posts)
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Feb-10-17, 
07:25 AM (MST)
71. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Or he simply resales his scouting package.

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nontypical
(2831 posts)
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Feb-10-17, 
10:40 PM (MST)
73. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Uhh...What's to stop a resident from buying the same information and turning it into HIS hunting spot? Remember...we can buy a general license every year and hunt where Founder hunts.

The only thing "good" about this practice is someone puts a few bucks in his pocket and someone else gets to maybe kill a nice buck and know a new spot. It's a steep price for short-term gain...

There is nothing else good about it. But; that's just my opinion.

Pretty sure someday Founder will regret doing this.

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SWAGshootn
(104 posts)
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Feb-10-17, 
10:33 PM (MST)
72. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Bugleb,
I couldn't agree more with your thoughts. IF and I say IF the information Founder was handing out, stayed with that one paying person... more power to him. But we all know it won't and the area, just like what you described with your bow area, was ruined.

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Founder
(5963 posts)
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Feb-11-17, 
01:04 AM (MST)
74. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Did you see, that bill got slaughtered in the state Senate. Hopefully it's because someone (or most of them) saw it as simply wrong. Legally wrong, as I did.

If you guys don't want to share what you know, then fine, that's your right. But I don't think laws should be passed to stop me from sharing my knowledge. If I want to write a book telling everyone on the planet every place I've ever been hunting and where every deer I've ever seen before was, I should have the right to do so whether I give the book away or sell it for one cent or a zillion dollars.

As far as morally and ethically, we all have our own opinion. Most of use take advantage of the advantages we have over game to achieve success. Millions of people share advantages they have and are compensated. Camo companies share camo clothing, optic companies share their advantages, and so on.
Many folks on this thread utilize many advantages offered to them without any complaint about how wrong it imight be for a company to make clothing to hide them from the game, or sell them a rifle that can kill a deer at 600 yards, or tell them the best units to hunt in all the states in a magazine.
I feel that those of you who want to see me stopped from sharing my advantage over the game, should hang up all your advantages before asking me or others to do the same.

As for me telling people where to hunt and the impact it has on my spots, that again should be up to me to decide, not the state legislature or other sportsmen who might be inconvenienced.
I understand the impact of my decisions pretty well. I take into consideration the impact it has on the game and other hunter's and I feel comfortable about it and can sleep well at night.

I do like reading all the opinions here. Many of you make some solid points.

I was surprised that the bill was shot down. I'm sure those who want to pull consulting in to make it a new revenue stream for outfitters only, will keep working at it. They've got member dues to spend on the fight. Can't really blame them for wanting to own it all. I want to own all hunting talk on the internet, I don't, but try every day to grab what I can. That's how we all pay bills.

I expect to be doing what I love and backpacking across high mountains scouting for bucks again this year and will probably locate more bucks than I can hunt. And, I expect to share photos, my adventures and maybe even a few locations. All legally of course.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!

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tx_packmule
(759 posts)
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Feb-11-17, 
12:35 PM (MST)
75. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

IF someone wants to do that, then more power to them. I could see an argument where it'd be considered semi-guided or even where permits (if required) would be needed for photos provided of specific bucks being compensated for. But I also see where people submitting stories for contests in hopes of some compensation could fall under the same thing. I guess the only issue I have with it is a personal one. I spend more time thinking about 2-3yrs down the road than I do the present and I'd much rather prefer certain bucks find a rock to hide under instead of trying to get them shot.

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Castnshoot
(586 posts)
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Feb-11-17, 
12:36 PM (MST)
76. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I pretty much agree with your 1:00 am post. Still think you should give that guy his garage buck though.

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SWAGshootn
(104 posts)
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Feb-11-17, 
02:23 PM (MST)
77. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Founder.... I did like what you wrote and think you bring some valid points but I need clarification on one of your paragraphs.

You said...
I understand the impact of my decisions pretty well. I take into consideration the impact it has on the game and other hunter's and I feel comfortable about it and can sleep well at night.

What are the impacts of your decisions?

What impact does it have on game?

What impact does it have on other hunters?

What impact will it have on "your" spots?

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Founder
(5963 posts)
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Feb-11-17, 
06:22 PM (MST)
78. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Impacts on the game.... slightly better chance that the buck I point a person towards gets shot. But the does will still get bred in the winter.

Impact on other hunter's...their chance of getting lucky and killing that particular buck is lessened.

Impact on my spots..... no impact. They change every year.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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SWAGshootn
(104 posts)
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Feb-12-17, 
01:39 PM (MST)
79. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Your brevity makes me smile but a little too simplistic in your thinking or maybe some blinders.


Impact on game... Instead of 1 guy looking over 10 shooter deer and killing one of them. You will invite 10 people to each individual buck to get shot. HMMMMMMM

Impact on other hunters.... Instead of 1 guy camping in the high country and killing one buck, there will be 10. HMMMMMMM

Impact on your spots.... I fail to acknowledge you never revisit the same area. You know the areas and know where the deer typically like to be. You hike more than most and put in a hell of a lot of time in the high country. You look over a lot of ground and find deer where they end up being but those 10 people just told 10 people about where to go. Wont take long before those spots are gone. You have even said that Region G and H can't handle having the entire state of Wyoming hunting it every year. Seems you are just speeding up the demise of Region G and H.

I guess what I am saying is I don't think what your are doing makes hunting better. Sure it will benefit a few people but the idea alone IMO, lessens the hunting experience rather than improving it.

I am glad this topic has come up and has made me take an inventory of my own actions. I have some changing to do.

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Founder
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Feb-12-17, 
02:52 PM (MST)
81. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I invite 10 people???? Not sure what you're talking about there.
And 10 people kill one buck? (That's some fine coordinated shooting! Ha ha)

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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SWAGshootn
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Feb-12-17, 
08:22 PM (MST)
82. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Ok... I'll walk you through it...

10 people sign up and pay for your service. They kill 10 top end deer. They tell 10 of their friends who then over the next few years hunt the area and tell their 10 friends about an area that a well known hunter hunts.

equals....

Less bucks
More People
More camps
More hunters
More pressure


Anyone who sees you on the mountain could expect the area they are hunting just got posted to the internet.... But you have thought through your decision and the consequences of your actions. I get you are passionate and love the outdoors and I think you truly want to help people. I just don't agree with this idea. Agree to disagree

Like it has been said before.... I think you might regret your decision.

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SWAGshootn
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Feb-12-17, 
02:52 PM (MST)
80. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I think your brevity is comical...

Impact on game... We all know you work your butt off scouting and hiking. Last year you found over 500 different bucks. But lets say for our sake you found 10 "shooter" deer and had 10 people who want your guide service. You give up the location of those 10 deer. So instead of 1 guy finding 10 shooter deer and shooting 1 of them, you end up shooting 10. Seems like a larger impact.

Impact on hunters.... So you take those same 10 guys and put them in the high country.... They all have camps, and maybe a spotter. So instead of just you... you have 10+

Impact on your spot.... We as hunters have our spots. We seek them out and hunt them because the animals like it there. Food? Water? Cover? I find it hard to believe you don't visit the same areas time and time again to see IF the spot holds a big buck. Well now you have your last clients brother, sister, cousin, hunting the same spot.

I guess what I am trying to say is I think what you are doing, albeit legal, does not add to hunting as a whole. Sure it will make it better for a few clients but IMO does not add to the experience and what we as hunters seek. We are again exploiting this fragile ecosystem.

All in all, this whole thread has helped me reflect on what things I may be doing to draw negativity to the sport. And I have some changing to do.

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Founder
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Feb-12-17, 
11:30 PM (MST)
83. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

10 guys killing 10 big bucks I found?!?!? 100% success?!?!? You need to hunt top end bucks more often, cause they ain't that easy to get. Big bucks are hard to get, and getting one particular old wise buck is very hard. Very, very hard.
If 3 out of 10 guys I help kill the buck they're after, I'd be thrilled! 30% success rate on top end bucks is huge. 100% is impossible when 10 guys are one on one with a big buck.
2 of the guys I helped last year killed bucks I found. Both over 190. Another client killed a pretty darn good one, but it wasn't the one I found. A 4th client who did one of my "Get You Started" packages wasn't after a particular buck, but did kill one that I had shared pictures of. All others, including myself, were unable to turn up the bucks we were after.
I was very happy to see 2 of the guys I helped get the big one I found. If 25% - 30% of those I help get the one they're after, I'd call that real good.
Had those guys gone in blind, with no scouting and no help, success rate on bucks over 190, or even 185, would be more like .5%. I'd guess that guys who don't scout and who hunt the area rarely have odds of about 1 In 200 of getting lucky and stumble into and kill a buck over 190. So you are absolutely correct that what I provide is a highly increased chance of getting a top end buck, but nowhere close to 100%.
1 in 200 vs 1 in 4 is a big difference though.

As far as my clients going back to the same spots I sent them.....it's possible, but they're going to go somewhere if they have a tag. They won't draw the tag and throw it away if I'm not here to help them.

I understand what you're saying though, I increase success rate on big bucks. But my impact is virtually nothing compared to so many other things. When we all give up all the other advantages that have a far, far greater impact on big bucks, then come and give me the guilt trip and maybe I'll close shop. Some want me to quit sharing information so that they have a better chance of shooting that big buck at 1000 yards with their $5000 long range setup. No way.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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lostinOregon
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Feb-12-17, 
11:44 PM (MST)
84. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I personally have no problem with what founder is doing. I believe that the outfitters had a problem with it and are the ones bringing it forward. They are the ones responsible for the wilderness law in WY. It has been happening in many states for quite some time.

Its also funny to me that when someone posts a big buck on here they get tons of PM's asking for information or if you made a post and offered to help someone in the past you get flooded with questions and requests for help. I guess it is ok just to give you all the information that it has taken years to accumulate. However if someone wants paid for that it is just down right wrong. If founder offered to give away locations of 20 bucks for free he couldn't keep up with the requests and he would be flooded with questions.

There are ton of guys on here that are working class folks. They get a tag in G every 6 years. They work their ass off but don't have as much time for scouting because they are involved with their church, family and work. They get 2 weeks of vacation a year and can only spend a week of it hunting. A scouting package might be their best option to have a great hunt. Your telling me that there is something wrong with that, but if they would pay a guide, that they can't afford that would be ok?

If what founder was doing was illegal, why would they someone introduce a bill to make it illegal. All they would have to do is enforce the laws on the books.

I guess I might be in the minority on this one and I am alright with that. Plenty of people make money off of the wildlife in each state and will continue whether or not this bill passes.

Rich

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Stubaby
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Feb-13-17, 
11:27 AM (MST)
85. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"


I've been following founders actions on this topic and read this thread and I like to think that I objectively see both sides. After some soul searching I tend to lean toward agreeing with the fact what what Brian is doing does not bother me.

My friends and I are chasing the same buck here in montana. 3 years now. There are four of us who know where his bedroom is. We can hunt for 6 weeks with bows and 5 with rifles. Every time we go without seeing him for a while we think someone or something got him. Then when see find him again we are fooled yet again.

I was in H this year and learned a ton about that type of country. Getting a camp up there with the proper provisions for a week of hunting is a Ton of work. More work than actually hunting, imo. Horses are a pain. You can't glass from them, they are tons of maintenance, and take up way too much hunting time just having them around.

I'm way more worried about the deer winter killing each year or predation than getting killed legally by a hunter. I'd rather have people on the hill looking for and probably not killing a particular big buck than killing a bunch of smaller(younger ones). The guy from SD who killed the deer founder sent him after hunted his butt off and the odds were way against him. Still better than having an outfitter taking care of camp,horses, and glassing for him. You guys think that Brian is tying them to a tree. Not so.

I would never do it because I like to go find my own deer, but what I see about this topic doesn't bother me at all.

I took a kid out for his first buck this last fall. I knew where he was, glassed him up, and got the kid into position. All he had to do was hike along with me and make a 220 yard shot. Am I a deer pimp, or an ambassador passing on the tradition. His mom even gave me a Cabelas gift card two weeks later just to say thanks. Was I whoring it out?

How many of you would take a job that works for you while you are out of town(website), then get paid to go find deer all summer?

Outfitters imo are way worse imo. They bring people with little to no knowledge of how to get it done, take care of most the obstacles, then help get people deer who I think don't deserve it.

Thanks my opinion.

"That's a special feeling, Lloyd"

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huntin50
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Feb-13-17, 
11:44 AM (MST)
86. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

I can see Swags position and Founder's position.

You will likely see a few more hunters in better spots that traditionally hold a good buck. Friends and family who draw will likely go to those same areas if a big buck was shot.

It is already crowded in G and H. These big bucks usually know it's hunting season if not before the first shots fired.

Friends often share info, even on this site, hunting magazines, guides, etc. as mentioned by Rich.

IF two to four top end bucks get shot through paid info, I doubt it would make much difference. Especially when outfitters, can do the same thing, only hold your hand, point out the buck, that might not have been found, and make more money.

The Outfitter also has the wilderness loophole. Some outfitters fly scouting, and then hand their client there 1,000 yard rifle dialed in, to get the job done. I think this situation is harder on big bucks.


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DW
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Feb-13-17, 
03:26 PM (MST)
87. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Stubaby, I believe there was a guy on here in Arizona a couple years back that got pinched for that very thing you just confessed. He did it for a few meals and a little gas money, so his story went. Just sayin.

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Stubaby
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Feb-13-17, 
07:24 PM (MST)
88. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"


Pinched?


I just called her. She drew my name for our neighborhood Christmas exchange. Had nothing to do with helping her son get a deer. Whew!!!!

"That's a special feeling, Lloyd"

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DW
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Feb-13-17, 
07:28 PM (MST)
89. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Lol

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DW
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Feb-13-17, 
07:44 PM (MST)
90. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

Every year I get asked to pack out a couple elk for different guys with my horses where I hunt. Hey a couple hundred bucks a piece would go a long way towards gas and groceries and hay for my horses, not to mention I enjoy doing it. I mean really I'm not guiding them? I'm not packing in their camp? I'm not telling them where to hunt or where the elk are? I'm not providing them with any groceries cooking their meals or wiping their ass? Yet doing it is against the law called illegal guiding. I don't agree with it but I'm not making any effort to change the law so I abide by it. Which would you consider more of an act of illegal outfitting, someone packing out a couple elk for a few bucks or providing detailed scouting information complete with pictures and GPS coordinates of a quality buck?

As a qualifier I'm a free-market capitalist I think we should all be allowed to make money.

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huntin50
(908 posts)
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Feb-14-17, 
01:40 PM (MST)
91. "RE: Thoughts on scouting for others"

DW I think both you and Founder should be OK. And the guy that feeds a pack of hounds for years, that gets his gas money paid for by a friend he helps out.

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